Losing Respect

[dutchguest]

About the freedom of individual choice: in many western countries the islamophobia is a growing phenomenon. A ban on wearing head- and/or face covering cloths for Muslim women in some countries is one of the symptoms. In spite of the violence in the south in Thailand I have not heard of such measures in Thailand.

In general I sense in Thailand a greater respect for the personal freedom and a greater tolerance towards deviant behavior then in many western countries. People minding more their own business then in the west. They will have their own thoughts about things but don't show it so quick, they let people more in their own value. This can be confused with indifference but it is i.m.o. the opposite. When needed they are more helpful then many westerners.

About institutionalized religion: in the west, at least in Europe, institutionalized churches may be on the way back. But we have many institutions left like mental health institutions, prisons, hospitals. The aim of these institutions should be to make themselves superfluous by diminishing and ideally extinguishing crime, sickness. At the moment we are not so far and they do have a function. The same goes for institutionalized Buddhism in Thailand: the aim should be to make themselves superfluous and make everybody aware of his/her own responsibility that the way to freedom is a personal affair.

[christiaan]

Well I would say you mix up different subjects.

I assume you are from Holland?

Holland is as far as I know a democracy and whatever is chosen to do there is done within the structure of democracy.

So any fobia that would cause a ban is banned by this democratic structure.

As far as I know people in your country openly even offend the Royal family, there are 'funny' tv programms made about the Royal Family and, when I am well informed there is even quite a republican lobby who is not limited in their way of expression. That is another way of telling the Dutch royal family is often openly offended in all kind of ways..

Just imagine these things to happen in Thailand,

In Thailand someone even can get arrested when peeing to a structure not aware there is a picture of the King glued on it somewhere, and on thaivisa people take care they will never write something that could be regarded negative towards the Thai Royal Family.

As far as I know there is no Islam- Asian problem like we see in western countries.

Just ask any Thai, and most of them are 'Buddhists', what would happen, when Islam migrants would blow a Thai train, hijack Thai airplanes, blow up some high rised Buildings in Bangkok, killing a couple of thousands people.

Just ask and you will be cured of your naivete and wishfull thinking.

There are many sorts of respect.

There is respect for the force of nature.

There is respect out of compassion and love.

There is respect for a man carrying a loaded gun.

There is respect for the elite in control of power and money.

There is respect for a government with rigid laws.

There is respect for a munk, deeply devoted to a spiritual life, helping anybody who he can help, showing gratitude and happiness to all who care and love him and even to the ones that do not.

[christiaan]

ha, ha, when would blow up a Thai train.

mind your language Christiaan, mind your language.

[dutchguest]

I think in the future slowly all forms of institutionalised religion will disappear and the behaviour of some monks can only accelerate that proces. Just like I think all feudal relics like the monarchy will disappear. In Holland the function of the monarchy is now mainly decorative. We also have lese majesty laws but they are not so strict and certainly not used to eliminate political opponents. So regarding religion and monarchy we have more freedom of speech.

In many other respects Thailand is i.m.o. more tolerant and life there is less restricted by all kind of rules. There is less stereotyping of the sexual roles (the -christian?- moral that the normal way is a lifelong bond between a man and a woman of about the same age is still very dominant). Many young and old people and homosexuals go to Thailand for this greater sexual freedom. (Of course there are also people who misuse this freedom). And it is a very fundamental freedom that has a big impact on the mentality of the people and the general atmosfere of a society. While the christian moral tends to transform people into well adapted, productive robots, who are only allowed to function within a very strict prescribed way, Thai people have i.m.o. in general a greater sense of personal freedom and are more happy, although financial, material problems can be big.

[christiaan]

This topic is about respect.and not about freedom.

The 'tolerance' in Thailand in general is the tolerance of when you mind only your business I will mind only my business, there is a wellknown Thai expression for this, it is the tolerance of survival. and not the tolerance of the free spirit.

But you are right when you try to explain sexuality is disconnected from love, and has become a consumption article, for that Thailand is one of the best places in the world and yes this very fundamental 'freedom' has a big impact on the mentality of the people and the general atmosfere of a society.

It is not the Christian moral (a generalizing comment) that tends to make people robots but the material way of thinking.

The freedom and democracy in many western countries maybe does have a relation to the fact that Christianity has been the main religion overthere before (????)

I would say when I read the mirror part of your contribution it could be possible you tell that because of this special 'Buddhist' freedom in Thailand, where most people are Buddhist by birth and cuilture, Buddhism could be relatesd to the many many problems in Thailand. Yellow-red, prostitution, use of alcohol, robbery, fraud, corruption, divorce rate, situation of the woman in thai society, difference between the poor and the rich, behaviour of some monks

Some monks are related to :have girls become prostitutes, to earn money, to smoke, by the way they use mobile phones, smoke, behave badly in many other ways,

These are people 'hiding ' their bad moral under the orange colour of Buddhism and make many people start to disrespect more and more this orange colour.

It infact tells nothing about the essence of Buddhism only about the different ways people use Buddhism for their own purpose,

I would say it is time to start to live and open up your eyes and enter the world, the real world

[ChiangMaiFun]

I think in the future slowly all forms of institutionalised religion will disappear and the behaviour of some monks can only accelerate that proces. Just like I think all feudal relics like the monarchy will disappear. In Holland the function of the monarchy is now mainly decorative. We also have lese majesty laws but they are not so strict and certainly not used to eliminate political opponents. So regarding religion and monarchy we have more freedom of speech.

In many other respects Thailand is i.m.o. more tolerant and life there is less restricted by all kind of rules. There is less stereotyping of the sexual roles (the -christian?- moral that the normal way is a lifelong bond between a man and a woman of about the same age is still very dominant). Many young and old people and homosexuals go to Thailand for this greater sexual freedom. (Of course there are also people who misuse this freedom). And it is a very fundamental freedom that has a big impact on the mentality of the people and the general atmosfere of a society. While the christian moral tends to transform people into well adapted, productive robots, who are only allowed to function within a very strict prescribed way, Thai people have i.m.o. in general a greater sense of personal freedom and are more happy, although financial, material problems can be big.

I agree with much of this but be careful on the 'Monarchy' comments as the Mods will be after you (not that I disagree)

[newbie001]

I really don't understand why people often say that Buddhism is not a religion. That the only way something is a religion is a belief in a god or gods. According to Webster's dictionary.

Religion

a) any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy !the Christian religion, the Buddhist religion, etc." any system of beliefs, practices, ethical values, etc. resembling, suggestive of, or likened to such a system !humanism as a religion"

If it weren't a religion then why is it protected under religious freedoms of other countries?

However that isn't really the issue. I wasn't trying to start a debate of how corrupt or bad Buddhism is in Thailand. Overall I have a lot of respect for the beliefs and the systems of Buddhism in Thailand. I just find it hard to swallow when I see blatant misuse of a sacred trust.

Like it or not Monks in this country are revered. To the person that said that they are Thai and don't respect monks, I say BS to you. I will wager that you stand up and wai them in the proper fashion just like everyone else does. If you did not, you would be criticized from those around you. If you Wai a monk in the same manner as a friend, you it will not go unnoticed.

I also don't think that it is correct to compare with other religions or issues with those religions. Because Buddhism has a very strict set of rules in place and since monks do get special treatment, I find it improper when they act like the rest of us.

Being a monk is a sacred trust especially here in Thailand.

I just hate seeing the few individuals break this trust.

i was not trying to disrespect the religion. Just the few individuals that don't take their role seriously.

Christain. It is clear by your posts that you know very little about Thailand or Buddhism. (There have been serious problems in the south related to Islam. Buddhism though instills tollerance in its teachings is still opposed to Prostitution, Alcohol, Homosexuality and every other thing that you claim it promotes.

[christiaan]

I do not claim it promotes anything.

Read my post.

And ,... read 'Broken Buddha', this is written by a Monk telling Thai monks in the north are involved in Thai girls becoming prostitutes in Bangkok.

These are not my words.

Then about the tolerance of 'Thailand' towards Muslims as Dutchguest refers to it is a better situation in Thailand.

out of: http://www.apcss.org

Since the beginning of 2004, southern Thailand has become caught up in an escalating cycle

of violence. In January 2004, Thailand placed three provinces in the South - Pattani, Yala,

and Narathiwat (known collectively as "Patani") under martial law following a well coordinated

attack on army and police facilities. Subsequent violence, including the suffocation

of around 80 Muslim youth detained in army trucks in October, 2004 has

polarized views about the ongoing conflict.

newbie001 please tell Dutchguest there are serious problems in the south with Islam, I think it is clear I did not state there are not. This the truth of Dutchguest, maybe he can tell something about suffocated Muslims in his country, and the way the officials handle such case of tolerance?

Explain me in some other topic how it is possible I do not meet in the most Buddhist country in the world with the most Buddhist culture in the world, a world of peace, deep happiness, absence of policeforce, absence of militaries involved in many area's of society and especially politics, a low number of trafic accident victims, paid sex, abuse of underage children, a general welfare for every Thai, absence of guns, drugs, violence, spam, good education, normal working hours for workers in factories, absence of poverty, good medical care for everyone, absenve of political violence.

When the political parties in Thailand and the ruling government attack and fight eachother : Buddhist fight eachother !! and I was in Bangkok to see this happening

Why did Mahavutichai Vachiramethi start a project to raise the bar for monastic conduct? Because to his opinion Thai's do not have a lot of good monks!

And then you write; " Being a monk is a sacred trust especially here in Thailand. I just hate seeing the few individuals break this trust."

A few individuals??? Those 'few' individuals just insult Buddhisme and Thailand.

And then you tell I know very little about Thailand or Buddhism?

[dutchguest]

Christiaan,

I never have denied that there is a lot wrong in the world and also in Thailand. But you seem to see only the negative side of Thailand and the positive side of the western world. I try to bring back the balance a little bit.

I like to repeat a recent dhamma thought:

Pay no attention to the faults of others,

things done or left undone by others.

Consider only what by oneself is done or left undone.

Buddha

I think this is the only way to keep the discussion open in a constructive way that leaves room for a more creative approach and may be for deepening the insight in reality.

[christiaan]

As far as I am aware I almost do not write about the western countries.

This forum is not about western cultures but about Buddhisme in Thailand.

I write about what I observe and I do not judge, this is very easy to see when reading reactions on other topics of Thaivisa where many contributors continuously make subjective humilliating remarks about Thai people and culture in a reaction to happenings in Thailand.

Then it is not just my opinion, I check the facts with Thai I know and they themself are in general not very positive about many aspects of Thai culture.

It is nice to repeat some dhamma out of some preference, to do so is your subjective choice to repeat something.

Such dhamma however is not my choice, because simply stated: how can a person become aware when this person is not paying attention?

I am not very impressed by the fact that especially foreigners, who have the free choice to become connected to Buddhisme, continously are confirming a one sided aproach to Buddhisme as it appears in Asia.

Buddhisme as one often can meet with western people is all about detachment, enlightment, intelligent high aware conversations about duality and non duality, enjoying food or not, walking or sitting meditation, and so on, but at the same time it is just an observational fact that the majority of the Thai people suffer to survive in daily life.

I bet if you tell Thai people how you live in your home country and suggest to switch live, many Thai people will not have to think 2 minutes to decide, but you, will you live in Thailand as most people in the North are living??? No steady job, no income, no healthinsurance, no unemployment benefits, no money to pay a good schooleducation for your children, no insurances?

We write about respect a 'few' monks do not pay to Buddhism, what about the lack of respect for this majority of the Thai people?

Is there a dhamma telling: pay no attention to the life of others, things they do or do not do, consider only what is by oneself done or undone for the purpose of your own enlightment.

I do not think so

There is no discussion and no construction and no creativity when there is no attention paid to reality.

[newbie001]

You clearly are way off topic.

You confuse Thai people with Buddhists. You are talking about social and political issues that exist that are not related to Buddhism. Yes 90% of Thais are Buddhist but that doesn't meant that they actually follow any of the Dharma. It is a modern world with modern issues and most people focus on their daily lives and not on religious or spiritual practices. Which isn't unlike any other modern country.

I am not talking about that though. This topic was about the role of Monks as spiritual leaders and how a "few" have abused the basic teachings. I am not comparing drinking coffee and smoking to the extremely corrupt instances of sex crimes committed by some others.

Just that it is more common to see some Monks live a more worldy existence enjoying many commercial aspects of life rather than maintaining the specific rules of Buddha.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I really don't understand why people often say that Buddhism is not a religion. That the only way something is a religion is a belief in a god or gods. According to Webster's dictionary.

Religion

a) any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy !the Christian religion, the Buddhist religion, etc." any system of beliefs, practices, ethical values, etc. resembling, suggestive of, or likened to such a system !humanism as a religion"

If it weren't a religion then why is it protected under religious freedoms of other countries?

However that isn't really the issue. I wasn't trying to start a debate of how corrupt or bad Buddhism is in Thailand. Overall I have a lot of respect for the beliefs and the systems of Buddhism in Thailand. I just find it hard to swallow when I see blatant misuse of a sacred trust.

Like it or not Monks in this country are revered. To the person that said that they are Thai and don't respect monks, I say BS to you. I will wager that you stand up and wai them in the proper fashion just like everyone else does. If you did not, you would be criticized from those around you. If you Wai a monk in the same manner as a friend, you it will not go unnoticed.

I also don't think that it is correct to compare with other religions or issues with those religions. Because Buddhism has a very strict set of rules in place and since monks do get special treatment, I find it improper when they act like the rest of us.

Being a monk is a sacred trust especially here in Thailand.

I just hate seeing the few individuals break this trust.

i was not trying to disrespect the religion. Just the few individuals that don't take their role seriously.

Christain. It is clear by your posts that you know very little about Thailand or Buddhism. (There have been serious problems in the south related to Islam. Buddhism though instills tollerance in its teachings is still opposed to Prostitution, Alcohol, Homosexuality and every other thing that you claim it promotes.

'any specific system of belief and worship'? what don't you understand? Buddhism is neither these things - Buddhists do NOT worship despite what you see in temples and neither do they 'believe' or have 'faith' as other religions do.

Thiland may nominally be called 'Buddhist' but it clearly does not follow the Dhamma - most Thais I know call themselves "Buddhists' but what does this mean? for them 'Animism' is 'Buddhism' - incense/flowers/amulets/walking round stupas three times/spirit houses/fortune telling etc. - all utterly non-Buddhist.

[yellow1red1]

perhaps this Image will help rekindle the fire of Devotion

[rockyysdt]

The 'tolerance' in Thailand in general is the tolerance of when you mind only your business I will mind only my business, there is a wellknown Thai expression for this, it is the tolerance of survival. and not the tolerance of the free spirit.

But you are right when you try to explain sexuality is disconnected from love, and has become a consumption article, for that Thailand is one of the best places in the world and yes this very fundamental 'freedom' has a big impact on the mentality of the people and the general atmosfere of a society.

It is not the Christian moral (a generalizing comment) that tends to make people robots but the material way of thinking.

The freedom and democracy in many western countries maybe does have a relation to the fact that Christianity has been the main religion overthere before (????)

I would say when I read the mirror part of your contribution it could be possible you tell that because of this special 'Buddhist' freedom in Thailand, where most people are Buddhist by birth and cuilture, Buddhism could be relatesd to the many many problems in Thailand. Yellow-red, prostitution, use of alcohol, robbery, fraud, corruption, divorce rate, situation of the woman in thai society, difference between the poor and the rich, behaviour of some monks

Some monks are related to :have girls become prostitutes, to earn money, to smoke, by the way they use mobile phones, smoke, behave badly in many other ways,

These are people 'hiding ' their bad moral under the orange colour of Buddhism and make many people start to disrespect more and more this orange colour.

It infact tells nothing about the essence of Buddhism only about the different ways people use Buddhism for their own purpose,

I would say it is time to start to live and open up your eyes and enter the world, the real world

Hi christian.

As ChiangMaiFun indicated (Thailand may nominally be called 'Buddhist' but it clearly does not follow the Dhamma - most Thais I know call themselves "Buddhists' but what does this mean? for them 'Animism' is 'Buddhism' - incense/flowers/amulets/walking round stupas three times/spirit houses/fortune telling etc. - all utterly non-Buddhist. ) the reason for lack of respect is entirely due to two reasons.

1. Most are unaware of what the Buddha actually taught.

2. Many of those who are aware of what was taught don't actually practice it.

I think the stance earlier was: After 2,500 of Buddhist influence shouldn't there have been more economic, social, political & moral advance.

The answer is clear.

There has been 2,500 of Annimism not Buddhism.

Buddhism must not take the blame.

It all comes back to "Why do people choose to be Buddhist (learn & follow Dhamma)?

I don't think any of us really knows.

Unless people actually learn & follow Dhamma there will be no progress and there will always be an apparent lack of respect.

It's important to note however that those who withdraw their respect should understand the difference between authentic Buddhists and those who claim to be.

[newbie001]

Again you are talking about lay people and I am only referring to certain Monks. Are you trying to say that Monks don't know the Dharma?

You are right that the Buddhism in Thailand is different than what the Buddha taught. But so is the Buddhism in Japan, Korea and many other Buddhist countries.

That doesn't mean that Buddhism here isn't Buddhism.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Again you are talking about lay people and I am only referring to certain Monks. Are you trying to say that Monks don't know the Dharma?

You are right that the Buddhism in Thailand is different than what the Buddha taught. But so is the Buddhism in Japan, Korea and many other Buddhist countries.

That doesn't mean that Buddhism here isn't Buddhism.

Nobody knows, for sure, exactly what the Buddha taught but we can be mostly sure about what he didn't teach - anyway Buddhisim is an 'inner' experience but there are certain 'foundation stones' which we can be sure of: karma, reincarnation, evolution etc. These 'inner' workings of what is loosely termed 'Buddhism' are a far cry from the 'annimist' supersticious jumbled up stuff we see around us. Of course it is true there are 'real' monks - but it is also true that they are rare and because the Thai Buddhist system is centered on developing 'self' rather than, say, 'others' (such as the Tibetan system) the Thai Buddhists don't show any leadership to guide the Realm away from the mumbo-jumbo - it's all 'mai pen rai'.

[rockyysdt]

Again you are talking about lay people and I am only referring to certain Monks. Are you trying to say that Monks don't know the Dharma?

Hi newbie.

Either many Monks don't know Dhamma or don't practice it.

Aren't Monks a sub set of the community? The only difference being that they have sworn an oath to devoting their lives to practice.''

I don't have the latest statistics but there are figures quoting the prevalence of smoking Monks as high as 47%.

The number of hospitalizations of Monks suffering from the consequences was so high that it prompted an instruction on such behavior.

The anecdotal evidence is by our observations and by the Annimism they perform.

It comes as no surprise as Monks suffer from the same afflictions (attachment to the senses) as do all human beings.

Having said that, I have the utmost respect for practicing Buddhist Monks.

You are right that the Buddhism in Thailand is different than what the Buddha taught. But so is the Buddhism in Japan, Korea and many other Buddhist countries.

That doesn't mean that Buddhism here isn't Buddhism.

This can be a sticking point.

Can Buddhism be called Buddhism if it's not what the Buddha taught, and there in lies the problem.

Perhaps someone should draw a line in the sand and say:

An audit is being performed by the Sangha and your practices are being checked for quality assurance.

I am sorry but the following practices can't be included as these have nothing to do with what the Buddha taught.

These practices need to be removed otherwise you cannot be accredited as a Buddhist institution.

Edited October 17, 2010 by rockyysdt

[bankei]

I have been a monk in Thailand and have been coming and going for over 20 years, and I have yet to be impressed with any monks I have met. Some of the monks that impressed me the least were ones who scrupulously followed the rules (some of them) to the letter.

Bankei

[moe666]

OK. Let us not talk about monks.

Let us talk about buddhism.

Buddhism is about rejecting material concerns. Right?

Buddhism is about inner peace. Right?

Is there buddhism in thailand ?

If you can point me to it, i will be most gratefull.

I am not sarcastic, i would realy like to know.

I think you make fair, albeit shallow points. Perhaps, for example, there's a difference between having material objects (such as a cell phone or a computer), and becoming attached to those objects.

Please explain.

I had a tv before, became attached to it, no, addicted. So i gave it away.

I never had / wanted a car, so i never became attached or addicted.

And most monks ?

Can monks help me get rid of my other material addictions?

If i posses material things, and do not throw them away, am i attached?

Is that acceptable? To me it seems not acceptable, but on my own i do not have the strength to resist.

But can i hope for help from smoking / foning / ...... monks ? Or are there others ?

if you are looking for someone else to show you the way then you need to start over, look within yourself for what you need. The monk who smokes and uses the phone maybe enlighten how do you know. Who qualified you to judge another. That monk you slag he could be your number one teacher. Open your eyes, your mind and your heart..

[moe666]

<BR>The Buddha said... When talking about others mention only their good points, but when talking about ourselves mention only our bad points.<BR><BR>We are over half way through the 5000 years of life expectancy of this Buddha's teaching, so misunderstanding and corruption of people's understanding of the Dhamma is common in both laypeople and the Sangha, and will get worse.<BR><BR>If we allow this to stop us from making merit we are cutting ourselves off from "an incomparable field of merit for the world..".<BR><BR>We make it difficult for the good monks to survive too, and so help to shorten the life of the Dhamma.<BR><BR>If we see people behaving incorrectly we should have compassion for them in that they are creating karma for themselves which will cause them suffering in the future.<BR><BR>If we allow ourselves to get angry then we are creating karma for ourselves and are no better than them.<BR>

<BR><BR>This is all true.. but it would be nice if the Sangha showed leadership and commented on the sad state of Buddhism here? all this selling of flowers etc. in Wats is pretty depressing <BR>

Why do you worry about what you have no control over.

[ChiangMaiFun]

<BR>The Buddha said... When talking about others mention only their good points, but when talking about ourselves mention only our bad points.<BR><BR>We are over half way through the 5000 years of life expectancy of this Buddha's teaching, so misunderstanding and corruption of people's understanding of the Dhamma is common in both laypeople and the Sangha, and will get worse.<BR><BR>If we allow this to stop us from making merit we are cutting ourselves off from "an incomparable field of merit for the world..".<BR><BR>We make it difficult for the good monks to survive too, and so help to shorten the life of the Dhamma.<BR><BR>If we see people behaving incorrectly we should have compassion for them in that they are creating karma for themselves which will cause them suffering in the future.<BR><BR>If we allow ourselves to get angry then we are creating karma for ourselves and are no better than them.<BR>

<BR><BR>This is all true.. but it would be nice if the Sangha showed leadership and commented on the sad state of Buddhism here? all this selling of flowers etc. in Wats is pretty depressing <BR>

Why do you worry about what you have no control over.

True... why do I? I guess (and this may seem crazy to you) that I hold all life as 'meaningful' animals, vegetable and even mineral and so doing the 'flower' thing is sort of sad - But I don't spend tons of time on it don't worry

[phetaroi]

Why do you worry about what you have no control over.

Because he's human, and I have no doubt that under the right circumstances you worry about some things over which you have no control.

[moe666]

<BR>The Buddha said... When talking about others mention only their good points, but when talking about ourselves mention only our bad points.<BR><BR>We are over half way through the 5000 years of life expectancy of this Buddha's teaching, so misunderstanding and corruption of people's understanding of the Dhamma is common in both laypeople and the Sangha, and will get worse.<BR><BR>If we allow this to stop us from making merit we are cutting ourselves off from "an incomparable field of merit for the world..".<BR><BR>We make it difficult for the good monks to survive too, and so help to shorten the life of the Dhamma.<BR><BR>If we see people behaving incorrectly we should have compassion for them in that they are creating karma for themselves which will cause them suffering in the future.<BR><BR>If we allow ourselves to get angry then we are creating karma for ourselves and are no better than them.<BR>

<BR><BR>This is all true.. but it would be nice if the Sangha showed leadership and commented on the sad state of Buddhism here? all this selling of flowers etc. in Wats is pretty depressing <BR>

Why do you worry about what you have no control over.

True... why do I? I guess (and this may seem crazy to you) that I hold all life as 'meaningful' animals, vegetable and even mineral and so doing the 'flower' thing is sort of sad - But I don't spend tons of time on it don't worry

Donot worry, I will not worry about your worries, I have my owns worries to worry about.

[Xangsamhua]

I have been a monk in Thailand and have been coming and going for over 20 years, and I have yet to be impressed with any monks I have met. Some of the monks that impressed me the least were ones who scrupulously followed the rules (some of them) to the letter.

Bankei

Personally, I have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks drinking coffee. I don't like smoking, but could tolerate that, too, in a monk (40 years ago, monks in Thailand and Laos smoked like chimneys). I would prefer a coffee-drinking, smoking monk who is sympathetic and broad-minded to a monk who follows a whole lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, patronizing and self-serving protocols and has serious deficiencies in empathy and kindness to go with it.

It may be out of order to say so, but the Sangha in Thailand appears locked in to 2000 year-old disciplinary practices that seriously impede their ability to bring Dhamma to the people and encourage authentic lay Buddhist practice. There are exceptions, of course. Samana Photirak and his monastic communities come to mind, though they are rather puritanical. It's also encouraging to see Phra Paisan Visalo and Phra Wutichai Vachiramethi (Tan Vor) supporting Ven Thich Nhat Hanh's current visit and the new Plum Village Centre at Pak Chong. The chairman of the council of advisors to the Phrasangharaja has also given his blessing to the Plum Village venture, and I think there has been support from the MCU (Buddhist University at Wangnoi) also. The seeds of change are there; at least one lives in hope.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I have been a monk in Thailand and have been coming and going for over 20 years, and I have yet to be impressed with any monks I have met. Some of the monks that impressed me the least were ones who scrupulously followed the rules (some of them) to the letter.

Bankei

Personally, I have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks drinking coffee. I don't like smoking, but could tolerate that, too, in a monk (40 years ago, monks in Thailand and Laos smoked like chimneys). I would prefer a coffee-drinking, smoking monk who is sympathetic and broad-minded to a monk who follows a whole lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, patronizing and self-serving protocols and has serious deficiencies in empathy and kindness to go with it.

It may be out of order to say so, but the Sangha in Thailand appears locked in to 2000 year-old disciplinary practices that seriously impede their ability to bring Dhamma to the people and encourage authentic lay Buddhist practice. There are exceptions, of course. Samana Photirak and his monastic communities come to mind, though they are rather puritanical. It's also encouraging to see Phra Paisan Visalo and Phra Wutichai Vachiramethi (Tan Vor) supporting Ven Thich Nhat Hanh's current visit and the new Plum Village Centre at Pak Chong. The chairman of the council of advisors to the Phrasangharaja has also given his blessing to the Plum Village venture, and I think there has been support from the MCU (Buddhist University at Wangnoi) also. The seeds of change are there; at least one lives in hope.

With all due respect... 'you have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks?' and how does this 'monk' pay for his drink?

Discipline is the bedrock of spiritual progress - you 'seem' to support a 'Thai style - mai pen rai' attitude to enlightenment - it takes work, discipline and focus over many lifetimes - you also endeavour to promote the Thai 'promotion' of Buddhism as... well... Buddhism - it is not.

[Xangsamhua]

I have been a monk in Thailand and have been coming and going for over 20 years, and I have yet to be impressed with any monks I have met. Some of the monks that impressed me the least were ones who scrupulously followed the rules (some of them) to the letter.

Bankei

Personally, I have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks drinking coffee. I don't like smoking, but could tolerate that, too, in a monk (40 years ago, monks in Thailand and Laos smoked like chimneys). I would prefer a coffee-drinking, smoking monk who is sympathetic and broad-minded to a monk who follows a whole lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, patronizing and self-serving protocols and has serious deficiencies in empathy and kindness to go with it.

It may be out of order to say so, but the Sangha in Thailand appears locked in to 2000 year-old disciplinary practices that seriously impede their ability to bring Dhamma to the people and encourage authentic lay Buddhist practice. There are exceptions, of course. Samana Photirak and his monastic communities come to mind, though they are rather puritanical. It's also encouraging to see Phra Paisan Visalo and Phra Wutichai Vachiramethi (Tan Vor) supporting Ven Thich Nhat Hanh's current visit and the new Plum Village Centre at Pak Chong. The chairman of the council of advisors to the Phrasangharaja has also given his blessing to the Plum Village venture, and I think there has been support from the MCU (Buddhist University at Wangnoi) also. The seeds of change are there; at least one lives in hope.

With all due respect... 'you have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks?' and how does this 'monk' pay for his drink?

Discipline is the bedrock of spiritual progress - you 'seem' to support a 'Thai style - mai pen rai' attitude to enlightenment - it takes work, discipline and focus over many lifetimes - you also endeavour to promote the Thai 'promotion' of Buddhism as... well... Buddhism - it is not.

Maybe you're right, CMF. I won't defend my position, other than to suggest that much of the Vinaya followed by the Thai sangha is outdated, unnecessary, unhelpful and should be reviewed.

Last time I saw a monk (a Sri Lankan) in a Starbucks in Bangkok, his drinks were paid for by his friend (a mutual friend), an old schoolmate from Galle. I'm not really suggesting monks should just rock into coffee shops and order drinks. I was really backing up Bankei's comment that, as a monk in Thailand, he often had least time for the Phra Pecksniffs who were often those most diligent in keeping the rules. http://www90.homepag...o/Pecksniff.htm

Cheers.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I have been a monk in Thailand and have been coming and going for over 20 years, and I have yet to be impressed with any monks I have met. Some of the monks that impressed me the least were ones who scrupulously followed the rules (some of them) to the letter.

Bankei

Personally, I have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks drinking coffee. I don't like smoking, but could tolerate that, too, in a monk (40 years ago, monks in Thailand and Laos smoked like chimneys). I would prefer a coffee-drinking, smoking monk who is sympathetic and broad-minded to a monk who follows a whole lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, patronizing and self-serving protocols and has serious deficiencies in empathy and kindness to go with it.

It may be out of order to say so, but the Sangha in Thailand appears locked in to 2000 year-old disciplinary practices that seriously impede their ability to bring Dhamma to the people and encourage authentic lay Buddhist practice. There are exceptions, of course. Samana Photirak and his monastic communities come to mind, though they are rather puritanical. It's also encouraging to see Phra Paisan Visalo and Phra Wutichai Vachiramethi (Tan Vor) supporting Ven Thich Nhat Hanh's current visit and the new Plum Village Centre at Pak Chong. The chairman of the council of advisors to the Phrasangharaja has also given his blessing to the Plum Village venture, and I think there has been support from the MCU (Buddhist University at Wangnoi) also. The seeds of change are there; at least one lives in hope.

With all due respect... 'you have no objection to a monk sitting in Starbucks?' and how does this 'monk' pay for his drink?

Discipline is the bedrock of spiritual progress - you 'seem' to support a 'Thai style - mai pen rai' attitude to enlightenment - it takes work, discipline and focus over many lifetimes - you also endeavour to promote the Thai 'promotion' of Buddhism as... well... Buddhism - it is not.

Maybe you're right, CMF. I won't defend my position, other than to suggest that much of the Vinaya followed by the Thai sangha is outdated, unnecessary, unhelpful and should be reviewed.

Last time I saw a monk (a Sri Lankan) in a Starbucks in Bangkok, his drinks were paid for by his friend (a mutual friend), an old schoolmate from Galle. I'm not really suggesting monks should just rock into coffee shops and order drinks. I was really backing up Bankei's comment that, as a monk in Thailand, he often had least time for the Phra Pecksniffs who were often those most diligent in keeping the rules. http://www90.homepag...o/Pecksniff.htm

Cheers.

Well maybe we are all attached (none more so than I) to the concept of those wearing the orange robe 'being' a certain way - Starbucks or no Starbucks.

I guess I am constantly disappointed when I see (some) Thai monks and the way they behave - but then I feel the same way about Buddhism generally in Thailand - it's 'lost' its way to a certain extent. I find the Dalai Lamas approach to world service far more inspiring.

[Xangsamhua]

It so happens I went to Starbucks at the Queen Sirikit Centre this morning, a bit before midday, and just ahead of me was a Thai monk ordering a drink and sandwich. He then paid for this with his own money.

I had no objection to this, even though it's quite clearly contrary to the Patimokkha, as I think the Patimokkha needs substantial revision and should be ignored on some points. The guy needed to eat and it was approaching noon.

What got to me, however, was that, after paying for his lunch and being served it on a tray, he pulled out a Starbucks pamphlet and placed it under the tray so he wouldn't have to receive it directly from a female. Handling money is fine, apparently, but to receive something from feminine hands is just too much!

Oh well ... different strokes for different folks.

[rockyysdt]

It so happens I went to Starbucks at the Queen Sirikit Centre this morning, a bit before midday, and just ahead of me was a Thai monk ordering a drink and sandwich.

An observation l made in Bangkok in recent times was that the price of a Starbucks coffee could buy you two substantial Thai meals.

The cost of a tall black or other hot drink maybe considered affordable by a Western visitor but to an average Thai would be quite an extravagant expense.

I can't help but bring up thoughts of "lack of humility", "egocentricity ", "excessive extravagance", "lack of thought or empathy for the poor", "lack of awareness" should a Monk patronize such establishments.

Edited October 22, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

It so happens I went to Starbucks at the Queen Sirikit Centre this morning, a bit before midday, and just ahead of me was a Thai monk ordering a drink and sandwich.

An observation l made in Bangkok in recent times was that the price of a Starbucks coffee could buy you two substantial Thai meals.

The cost of a tall black or other hot drink maybe considered affordable by a Western visitor but to an average Thai would be quite an extravagant expense.

I can't help but bring up thoughts of "lack of humility", "egocentricity ", "excessive extravagance", "lack of thought or empathy for the poor", "lack of awareness" should a Monk patronize such establishments.

Good point. Must have been a Hi-So monk. Today is ออกพรรษา (End of Buddhist Lent). Maybe yesterday was his last full day as a one-season monk??

Edited October 23, 2010 by Xangsamhua