Russia Fears Viktor Bout Could Reveal Secrets

[geriatrickid]

Here's a short reality check:

The USA is NOT the world police

Is that the best you can do?

What you have just done is dismissed the legitimate cries for help from the victims of the Liberian and Sierra Leone civil wars.

Who are these victims supposed to turn to? The UAE didn't respond to the charges against Mr. Bout and instead shielded him. The UN sanctions were flouted and the charges brought by the Liberians were obfuscated because the UAE could count on the Islamic voting bloc with support from China and Russia to veto anything that would have caused a problem.

Just who is going to help the victims obtain justice? Is it you?

How else does one stop an international illegal arms merchant that is protected by foreign countries? Were you expecting the prosecutor in Monrovia to get a warm greeting in Abu Dhabi if he came to arrest Mr. Bout?

The fact of the matter is that Mr. Bout got greedy and was nailed for trying to sell arms to FARC. No one forced him to sell arms to a group involved in narco terrorism and with the aim of overthrowing a popularly elected government. Yea, so it was a sting operation. That's usually how thugs and mafiosos are caught.

[SergeiY]

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

[SergeiY]

Here's a short reality check:

The USA is NOT the world police

Is that the best you can do?

What you have just done is dismissed the legitimate cries for help from the victims of the Liberian and Sierra Leone civil wars.

Who are these victims supposed to turn to? The UAE didn't respond to the charges against Mr. Bout and instead shielded him. The UN sanctions were flouted and the charges brought by the Liberians were obfuscated because the UAE could count on the Islamic voting bloc with support from China and Russia to veto anything that would have caused a problem.

Just who is going to help the victims obtain justice? Is it you?

How else does one stop an international illegal arms merchant that is protected by foreign countries? Were you expecting the prosecutor in Monrovia to get a warm greeting in Abu Dhabi if he came to arrest Mr. Bout?

The fact of the matter is that Mr. Bout got greedy and was nailed for trying to sell arms to FARC. No one forced him to sell arms to a group involved in narco terrorism and with the aim of overthrowing a popularly elected government. Yea, so it was a sting operation. That's usually how thugs and mafiosos are caught.

yawn

clean your own shit, mind your own business.

[globalmenace]

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

Do I smell a rotten, putrid red herring? I believe I do!

[way2muchcoffee]

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

Is this really your response? Really?

And so goes the last remaining shred of credibility SergeiY had on this forum.

Edited October 17, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[britmaveric]

This is one of those threads where the point is lost when everyone starts going off on tangents pushing their own political agends. Here's a reality check.

1. Mr. Bout was implicated in bloodshed long before the current "Russian" linked allegations arose. Operating from his base in the U.A.E., Mr. Bout supplied every recent major African conflict with weapons contrary to international sanctions, including those agreed to by Russia and the USA. His most reprehensible activities were in Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and the Sudan. Without Mr. Bout's activities, millions upon millions of lives would not have been impacted by civil war and genocide. As these African nations heal and put the conflict behind them, the victims cry out for justice. Justice for many will occur when Mr. Bout is brought to trial. These African nations have no clout, no money to buy justice so they turned to the west and ask for assistance.

2. Mr. Bout was charged in Liberia, but when the time came for justice to be served, Mr. Bout was able to avoid the charges so that they eventually were dropped. He had solid connections with the U.A.E.royal family and officials such as Sultan Hamad Said Nassir al Suwaidi, advisor to the ruler of Sharjah, and allegedly a key investor in one of Mr. Bout's principal comanies. Mr. Bout successfully laid low in the U.A.E. and relied on the fact that no one would take on the wealthy oil rich state. The west couldn't afford to upset an important arab state, especially one that provided covert military bases. Russia wasn't about to upset an important friend in the arab world. The africans had no clout against the Islamic block at the UN that successfully blocked any and all atempts at justice.

3. It was at one hoped that the matter just go away. The Bulgarians had been trying to mormalize their relations with the west and become a part of the EU. How would it look if the fact that almost all of Mr. Bout's weapons were sourced from Bulgaria?The Ukraine needed supprt from the west as it had its own dispute with Russia. However, information soon came out of both countries that was given to western european countries. Those countries as much as they wanted to hush up the information were faced with many angry human rights and refugee groups along with well established NGOs demanding that something be done against people like Mr. Bout.

4. 9/11 changed alot of things in the world, specifically how terrorism is treated. Despite all the sword waving and rhetoric exchanged between Russia and the USA, the fact of the matter is that they do cooperate with each other. There are groups in both governments that wanted the Bout affair to go away, and it would have, had Bout not been so stupid and greedy and tried to supply Columbian narco terrorists with weapons. Had the idiot not tried one last time to milk the cash cow, all would have been forgotten. The fool fell for a US sting operation.

This isn't about the USA being a socialist state. (It is not.)

This isn't about Russia being a totalitarian state. (It is not.)

It's all about the arrest and potential prosecution of a greedy man that is responsible for the illegal supply and distribution of weapons used in some of the world's recent horrific wars and genocides.

I agree with this.

+10

[IAMSOBAD]

The Iron Curtain has rusted me to sleep with boring Ruskie BS.

Sweet dreams in Thailand Victor. Big Bubba cant wait to meet you in the US!!!!

His fav actor is Nick Cage!

You can be his bunk buddy.

[SergeiY]

What?

Do you really believe the Americans suddenly feel so sorry for the victims in some civil war in Africa and its an humanitarian mission to put Bout in jail?

pfff

[geriatrickid]

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

Stay on topic. Deal with the Bout affair. There is no relevance, except for you to acknowledge that you have nothing intelligent to offer to back up your arrogant dismissal of the Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice.

[russianrobert]

If Bout is moving arms in and out of Russia then he has some very influential partners in very high places there.

His extradition to the US could turn out to be one of the few occasions when real evidence of the scale involvement of senior figures in Russia can be documented.

Everyone knows it's happening, Bout could provide the proof. How far up does the involment go and how big and bad were the arms deals.

Could be hugely damaging for Russia's elite..

Edited October 17, 2010 by russianrobert

[SergeiY]

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

Stay on topic. Deal with the Bout affair. There is no relevance, except for you to acknowledge that you have nothing intelligent to offer to back up your arrogant dismissal of the Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice.

pfff & justice & arrogance.

Did you read the Extradition request? Says nothing about Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice. so drop it.

Meanwhile the News above - that says something about how the USA handles "global justice".

[LaoPo]

Unfortunately, there are two posters here who just don't get it. Childish comments. And for sure bigots. Sad...

Like previously mentioned, America is a melting pot of every country in the world. Including Russia and Sweden. If you hate American's, then you also hate some of your countrymen. Personally, I am part native American. So if you want to hate an American, I am about as authentic as they come.

Now, please back to the topic and let's stop being childish...

LaoPo: I hear ya, but the biggest arms dealers in the US are corporations. Working within the legal system. If they work outside the legal system, it is either part of some black op affair, or it is illegal. And usually, these people get caught. Correct me if I am wrong, but have you heard of somebody like Bout doing this inside the US? Or the UK? Not at all.

The American armed forces don't make their own weapons, Lockheed, Boeing, Grumman, GD, etc., produce the arms that are then purchased by American armed forces AND foreign countries...and most sales have to be approved by congress...and many don't get approved. In a previous life, I supported GD...was there every day. And sweat bullets (HA!) while sales were approved by congress as it had a huge effect on my salary!!!!!

Of course the arms dealers are corporations and of course they work within the legal system -the American legal system-.

But you know as well that that's not the point I was making.

Most of you agreeing with the Bout extradition, agree that the US Intelligence services are "entitled and allowed" to illegally "lure" with sting operations on foreign soil and that's something I oppose to, no matter what the "criminal" has done.

There are legal International ways to ask for extradition of criminals but the US is taking the law into their own hands and act on foreign soil, giving sh_t about the laws of other countries.

That's why I asked if this would be allowed in the US: Foreign Intelligence services, operating on US soil....but I didn't get an answer yet, afaik.

Let me repeat it:

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?

Give me a break, since no one of you has answered that question since it's probably too difficult for you guys to say: "NO, the US wouldn't allow that"

LaoPo

[way2muchcoffee]

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?[/b]

According to previous news articles it was a joint operation between Thai and US authorities.

Edited October 17, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[geriatrickid]

Stay on topic. Deal with the Bout affair. There is no relevance, except for you to acknowledge that you have nothing intelligent to offer to back up your arrogant dismissal of the Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice.

pfff & justice & arrogance.

Did you read the Extradition request? Says nothing about Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice. so drop it.

Meanwhile the News above - that says something about how the USA handles "global justice".

Stay on topic, and don't try and redirect the attention away from Mr. Bout.

Fact 1. Mr. Bout was sanctioned by the United Nations for alleged arms trafficking activity and support of armed conflicts in Africa.

Fact 2. Mr. Bout was arrested in Thailand on an Interpol Red warrant.

Fact 3. Mr. Bout is wanted in Liberia for supplying weapons to Charles Taylor who was charged with war crimes.

Fact 4. Mr. Bout was identified in a UN report into the Angolan civil war in 2000 and had been sought \ever since.

You disagree with me. OK. How about you go and read the indictments and investigations here.

http://www.haguejust...995.TD1GUg.html

Read the UN resolution http://www.un.org/Do.../Angola/37e.pdf

If you want to discuss the specific case of Mr. Bout, fine, then let's look at exactly what it is he did and is accused of;

Keep in mind that Mr. Bout was recorded making the statements;

a. There were multiple meetings held with the Bout organization. Preliminary meetings were in Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary.

b. The undercover operatives won a face-to-face meeting with Bout in Bangkok.

In respect to a and b above, Mr. Bout could have said no at anytime. He could have walked away.

c. The USA alleges that Bout conspired to kill US nationals. During the Bangkok meeting that was recorded Bout is alleged to have agreed to provide the antiaircraft missiles, 5,000 AK-47 assault rifles, millions of rounds of ammunition, anti-personnel mines and C-4 explosives, night vision equipment, ultralight aircraft capable of carrying grenade launchers and missiles, and unmanned aerial vehicles with a range of 200 to 300 kilometers. The initial payment for the weapons would be 15 to 20 million, but no currency was identified. The shipments were to be airdropped to FARC forces in the Colombian jungle. Payments could be made through Bout contacts in Spain, Bout also reportedly offered to sell the undercover operatives two Russian cargo planes, an Antonov-32 and an Illyushin-76.

(So much for Lapao's assertion on US sourced weapons.)

d. During the meeting, one of the undercover DEA operatives told Bout that the group wanted to use the arms against Chinook and Apache helicopters being flown by US military pilots. According to the transcript released and reported on, the operative says "We don't have anything right now with which to defend ourselves," . "You see the helicopters landing and the Colombian troops getting off, but the pilot is American. And we want to start… killing American pilots." According to court documents referencing the transcripts, Bout replied: "Yes, yes. We're going to prepare everything. "We're together… and we have the same enemy."

Ok, so what part of the charges do you not understand?

What part of Mr. Blout's history as a supplier of weaponry do you not understand?

You and others have picked the wrong person to back. The man is dirty. Very dirty and he's going down. Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion because the authorities couldn't get the gangsterism charges to stick. Mr. Bout will go down on the legitimate FARC charges because people have a habit of dyingor disappearing before court dates in Africa. If you hate the US so much, go on a hunger strike in Bangkok to show your support. How about a hunger strike? You go and show your displeasure. Hey, I know. Go to Liberia and Sierra Leone and tell all the widows, rape victims, and amputees that Mr. Bout's just a misunderstood philathropist.

[geriatrickid]

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?[/b]

It was a joint operation between Thai and US authorities.

Bangkok was desired by the US authorities because there was already a well trained group of Thai operatives and a support network in place, The Thais were already cooperating on other files.

Thailand doesn't just have close working relationship with the USA. Both Australia and Canada have federal police officials and operatives worrking in Thailand, despite the public image that there are none. The DEA agents were not operating as rogue agents. They were in Thailand with the permission and the assistance/support of the Thai authorities.

The Bout apologists are running out of justifications for the man if they have to push the US secret police argument.

[LaoPo]

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?[/b]

According to previous news articles it was a joint operation between Thai and US authorities.

Well, if it was in the "news articles" (fed by whomever), surely it must have been OK for Secret Services to operate on Foreign soil

Still no answer to my question...

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Fact 2. Mr. Bout was arrested in Thailand on an Interpol Red warrant.

a. There were multiple meetings held with the Bout organization. Preliminary meetings were in Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary.

You seem to be an expert in the Bout case.

Maybe you can explain how it was possible for Bout to travel to countries like "Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary" without him being arrested IF he was on the Interpol Red Warrant list ? Whatever the latter means since I'm not an expert.

Can you show us the link that Bout was on the Interpol list?

WHY, if US Intelligence knew about those meetings, didn't they arrest him (or have him arrested) in any of those places, but, instead choose a far away country like Thailand at a much later date ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?[/b]

It was a joint operation between Thai and US authorities.

Bangkok was desired by the US authorities because there was already a well trained group of Thai operatives and a support network in place, The Thais were already cooperating on other files.

Thailand doesn't just have close working relationship with the USA. Both Australia and Canada have federal police officials and operatives worrking in Thailand, despite the public image that there are none. The DEA agents were not operating as rogue agents. They were in Thailand with the permission and the assistance/support of the Thai authorities.

The Bout apologists are running out of justifications for the man if they have to push the US secret police argument.

You talk like an insider...

Since when is the DEA also operating and dealing as a weapons' undercover agency, working on foreign soil? I thought the DEA was exclusively operating as a drugs and narcotics agency. That's at least what they say on their website.

I understand, that the DEA is working together with many other countries, trying to catch the bad guys involved in drugs, but weapons ?

Your remark about Bout apologists is silly.

We're talking about the legality of an operation by a far away intelligence service on a third countries' foreign soil.

I would have said exactly the same if this would have happened elsewhere.

And, what's more, still no answer to my question if this could -EVER- have been allowed on US soil...

You know what?

I don't think so

But, the US apologists refrain from a clear answer since they KNOW the US would never allow such an operation on their territory and that's why some of you chaps avoid answering that question.

LaoPo

[gpdjohn]

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?[/b]

It was a joint operation between Thai and US authorities.

Bangkok was desired by the US authorities because there was already a well trained group of Thai operatives and a support network in place, The Thais were already cooperating on other files.

Thailand doesn't just have close working relationship with the USA. Both Australia and Canada have federal police officials and operatives worrking in Thailand, despite the public image that there are none. The DEA agents were not operating as rogue agents. They were in Thailand with the permission and the assistance/support of the Thai authorities.

The Bout apologists are running out of justifications for the man if they have to push the US secret police argument.

You talk like an insider...

Since when is the DEA also operating and dealing as a weapons' undercover agency, working on foreign soil? I thought the DEA was exclusively operating as a drugs and narcotics agency. That's at least what they say on their website.

I understand, that the DEA is working together with many other countries, trying to catch the bad guys involved in drugs, but weapons ?

Your remark about Bout apologists is silly.

We're talking about the legality of an operation by a far away intelligence service on a third countries' foreign soil.

I would have said exactly the same if this would have happened elsewhere.

And, what's more, still no answer to my question if this could -EVER- have been allowed on US soil...

You know what?

I don't think so

But, the US apologists refrain from a clear answer since they KNOW the US would never allow such an operation on their territory and that's why some of you chaps avoid answering that question.

LaoPo

I'll answer..

Yes, some operations are indeed allowed if the US is the lead agency. Been involved in a few with UK and NL authorities. Don't ask, because I will not go any further. It is the same in this case. The Thai authorities were in the lead..authorized US authorities to run the game.

The DEA

It is a fereral law enforcement agency and yes, dope is it's chief concern..but if other violations of US law come into play such as weapons, explosives, etc, then they are allowed to act. ( including moving ATF agents to work with them..just not named as the DEA would be the lead agency. Called a Task Force and could also include officers from LLEA joining in.It happends all the time, city badge goes in the drawer and the fed badge and ID are now in the pocket.. Been there ..done that. )

There is not always a need to detain or stop/arrest a suspect as he travels the globe with the possibility of him/her commiting other crimes. A few phone calls to the authorities in the countries in which the suspect is heading, and you can figure out the rest.

.

[brahmburgers]

Fact 2. Mr. Bout was arrested in Thailand on an Interpol Red warrant.

a. There were multiple meetings held with the Bout organization. Preliminary meetings were in Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary.

You seem to be an expert in the Bout case.

Maybe you can explain how it was possible for Bout to travel to countries like "Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary" without him being arrested IF he was on the Interpol Red Warrant list ? Whatever the latter means since I'm not an expert.

Can you show us the link that Bout was on the Interpol list?

WHY, if US Intelligence knew about those meetings, didn't they arrest him (or have him arrested) in any of those places, but, instead choose a far away country like Thailand at a much later date ?

LaoPo

Neither you nor I really know what happens in the back alleys of arms dealing, whether with Mr. Bout or others. However, as a very rich person, it's not difficult to travel semi-clandestinely, and to get multiple passports (look at Thaksin, for example). Thailand is not 'far away' in these times of jet planes. US agents are rather good at 'sting operations' and apparently figured the time and place (Thailand) would be suited for a sting.

Trying to prove why something didn't happen at a different time or place can drive you crazy. It's just hubris thinking - and is the type of tactics Bout's defense attorneys will try to use to delay and obfuscate the proceedings - though it won't work as well in a US federal court, because the Feds aren't easily swayed by nonsense. That's one reason why Bout is desperate to avoid US federal court, because he can't as easily pay or manipulate his way out of the proceedings, as he likely could in other countries. On the plus side; US prisons are relatively comfy & clean, with TV, exercise yard, decent food, medical coverage (better than medical for ordinary citizens).

[LaoPo]

I'll answer..

Yes, some operations are indeed allowed if the US is the lead agency. Been involved in a few with UK and NL authorities. Don't ask, because I will not go any further. It is the same in this case. The Thai authorities were in the lead..authorized US authorities to run the game.

The DEA

It is a fereral law enforcement agency and yes, dope is it's chief concern..but if other violations of US law come into play such as weapons, explosives, etc, then they are allowed to act. ( including moving ATF agents to work with them..just not named as the DEA would be the lead agency. Called a Task Force and could also include officers from LLEA joining in.It happends all the time, city badge goes in the drawer and the fed badge and ID are now in the pocket.. Been there ..done that. )

There is not always a need to detain or stop/arrest a suspect as he travels the globe with the possibility of him/her commiting other crimes. A few phone calls to the authorities in the countries in which the suspect is heading, and you can figure out the rest.

.

Easy to say you were involved in secret operations but as a matter of fact I know for a fact (don't ask me how I know...) that The Netherlands' government will NEVER allow US secret agents to operate on their soil with their knowledge. NEVER.

Period.

That doesn't mean that they (US) didn't act on foreign soil, including the NL, but it was NOT allowed; you might not even have known or aware that you weren't allowed to operate.

It's the same as that the US is really p_ssed off that the European Parliament stopped the demands by the US that they wanted access to ALL European bank accounts.

You know, still no answer to my question if the US would allow the same operation on their soil as they did in the Bout case on Thai soil.

DEA: I'm not a specialist but are you saying that DEA agents can switch from drugs situations into weapons deals where ever they are ? hmmmm.....if that's the case it is even more worrying since that would allow permission of the country where they operate.

LaoPo

Edited October 17, 2010 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Fact 2. Mr. Bout was arrested in Thailand on an Interpol Red warrant.

a. There were multiple meetings held with the Bout organization. Preliminary meetings were in Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary.

You seem to be an expert in the Bout case.

Maybe you can explain how it was possible for Bout to travel to countries like "Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles; Copenhagen, Denmark; and Bucharest, Hungary" without him being arrested IF he was on the Interpol Red Warrant list ? Whatever the latter means since I'm not an expert.

Can you show us the link that Bout was on the Interpol list?

WHY, if US Intelligence knew about those meetings, didn't they arrest him (or have him arrested) in any of those places, but, instead choose a far away country like Thailand at a much later date ?

LaoPo

Neither you nor I really know what happens in the back alleys of arms dealing, whether with Mr. Bout or others. However, as a very rich person, it's not difficult to travel semi-clandestinely, and to get multiple passports (look at Thaksin, for example). Thailand is not 'far away' in these times of jet planes. US agents are rather good at 'sting operations' and apparently figured the time and place (Thailand) would be suited for a sting.

Trying to prove why something didn't happen at a different time or place can drive you crazy. It's just hubris thinking - and is the type of tactics Bout's defense attorneys will try to use to delay and obfuscate the proceedings - though it won't work as well in a US federal court, because the Feds aren't easily swayed by nonsense. That's one reason why Bout is desperate to avoid US federal court, because he can't as easily pay or manipulate his way out of the proceedings, as he likely could in other countries. On the plus side; US prisons are relatively comfy & clean, with TV, exercise yard, decent food, medical coverage (better than medical for ordinary citizens).

I'm convinced that US agents are very good in sting operations but that doesn't mean they are allowed to do so on foreign soil.

I'm also convinced that if the Thai authorities would have known that this Bout case would cause such an enormous worldwide uproar they never would have agreed with the operation and maybe they didn't even know (about the operation) but that the (in)famous Bamboo Thai Politics (bending with the winds) forced them to coperate with the Americans, once confronted with the Bout case.

But, maybe they also didn't fully realize themselves about the bitter cold anger, coming from Moscow...who knows?

It's a bloody pain in Thai @rses I tell you but I have the feeling that this case isn't over, by far and that in the end Mr. Putin will make a call to Bangkok (if he didn't already) and Washington...

Both the US and Russia aren't exactly waiting for a dirty basket to open...the smell from this basket will not please both Washington, Bangkok and Moscow.

And:

1. still no sign of Bout, appearing on an Interpol list and still no answer by ANYBODY if

2. The US would allow their own "luring" operations on their own soil.

According to the laws of many other countries such actions, set-up/luring cases, are illegal and the US bloody well know this.

LaoPo

Edited October 18, 2010 by LaoPo

[LomSak27]

Still no answer from Laopo on my post.

Quote from Laopo

and that American bullets kill most people in the world also

Laopao I really don't care what you and the other singlet wearers (wifebeater T's for the yanks) like to jaw about when swilling Leo. However I do not like airheadedness, that Homer-Nigel, "Doh!" approach to the world we live in.

As such do you know what the two most lethal wars have been since WWII?

The Congo from 94 to present

The Sudanese Civil war - 84-03 but extending that to Darfur.

Now if you set your bottle of Leo down for a second it's relatively easy to figure this one out. Are m 16's used in quantity by either of the sides in these wars? Rhetorical question and I am sorry but come on I expect better even if all you are doing is trying to give a bollocking to seppos.

[craigt3365]

What?

Do you really believe the Americans suddenly feel so sorry for the victims in some civil war in Africa and its an humanitarian mission to put Bout in jail?

pfff

I know it's hard for you to believe, but it is true. American's provide more humanitarian aid than any other country in the world. For sure we can debate it's effectiveness, but you can not debate this fact.

Afghans allege mistreatment at secret U.S. jail in Afghanistan

Stay on topic. Deal with the Bout affair. There is no relevance, except for you to acknowledge that you have nothing intelligent to offer to back up your arrogant dismissal of the Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice.

pfff & justice & arrogance.

Did you read the Extradition request? Says nothing about Sierra leone and Liberian victims cries for justice. so drop it.

Meanwhile the News above - that says something about how the USA handles "global justice".

You have no clue do you. Research things a bit before posting. Al Capone was guilty of murder, importing illegally, gambling dens, etc. In the end, they got him on tax evasion. Interpol was just trying to bring this guy down however they could. And in the end, it was this one deal where he tried to sell weapons to FARC in Colombia.

You love to argue, but your reasoning is a bit off. Put together a logical argument and we would love to discuss it with you...intelligently...

P.S. We are not bashing Russia!!!! We are bashing Bout. Understand?

[way2muchcoffee]

To answer Lao Po's question. It is entirely appropriate for any country to run an operation on foreign soil so long as that country agrees.

[LaoPo]

Still no answer from Laopo on my post.

Quote from Laopo

and that American bullets kill most people in the world also

Laopao I really don't care what you and the other singlet wearers (wifebeater T's for the yanks) like to jaw about when swilling Leo. However I do not like airheadedness, that Homer-Nigel, "Doh!" approach to the world we live in.

As such do you know what the two most lethal wars have been since WWII?

The Congo from 94 to present

The Sudanese Civil war - 84-03 but extending that to Darfur.

Now if you set your bottle of Leo down for a second it's relatively easy to figure this one out. Are m 16's used in quantity by either of the sides in these wars? Rhetorical question and I am sorry but come on I expect better even if all you are doing is trying to give a bollocking to seppos.

By the time you're willing and able to properly address and write my name as well as a kind of English I can understand I will answer your question, if you behave politely that is.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

To answer Lao Po's question. It is entirely appropriate for any country to run an operation on foreign soil so long as that country agrees.

That's not an answer to my question if the US would allow the same kind of operation on their soil, although you try to make that impression, since NOBODY can fully prove that there was an agreement for this operation.

Next to that, nobody knows IF Thailand fully knew and approved of the US Bout operation since Thailand is implementing their (in)famous Bamboo Politics to try and save face in this dirty case.

I'm sure Khun Abhisit is "not amused" by this sting operation as every political leader in the world would not be amused with such an operation, no matter how hard the Americans try to bring the truth and justification on their side.

LaoPo

[whybother]

<snip>

DEA: I'm not a specialist but are you saying that DEA agents can switch from drugs situations into weapons deals where ever they are ? hmmmm.....if that's the case it is even more worrying since that would allow permission of the country where they operate.

LaoPo

Wouldn't the DEA be involved because it relates to drug issues and FARC?

[craigt3365]

Unfortunately, there are two posters here who just don't get it. Childish comments. And for sure bigots. Sad...

Like previously mentioned, America is a melting pot of every country in the world. Including Russia and Sweden. If you hate American's, then you also hate some of your countrymen. Personally, I am part native American. So if you want to hate an American, I am about as authentic as they come.

Now, please back to the topic and let's stop being childish...

LaoPo: I hear ya, but the biggest arms dealers in the US are corporations. Working within the legal system. If they work outside the legal system, it is either part of some black op affair, or it is illegal. And usually, these people get caught. Correct me if I am wrong, but have you heard of somebody like Bout doing this inside the US? Or the UK? Not at all.

The American armed forces don't make their own weapons, Lockheed, Boeing, Grumman, GD, etc., produce the arms that are then purchased by American armed forces AND foreign countries...and most sales have to be approved by congress...and many don't get approved. In a previous life, I supported GD...was there every day. And sweat bullets (HA!) while sales were approved by congress as it had a huge effect on my salary!!!!!

Of course the arms dealers are corporations and of course they work within the legal system -the American legal system-.

But you know as well that that's not the point I was making.

Most of you agreeing with the Bout extradition, agree that the US Intelligence services are "entitled and allowed" to illegally "lure" with sting operations on foreign soil and that's something I oppose to, no matter what the "criminal" has done.

There are legal International ways to ask for extradition of criminals but the US is taking the law into their own hands and act on foreign soil, giving sh_t about the laws of other countries.

That's why I asked if this would be allowed in the US: Foreign Intelligence services, operating on US soil....but I didn't get an answer yet, afaik.

Let me repeat it:

Does the USA allow Foreign Intelligent Services to (illegally) operate on American soil, luring foreign arms dealers and (have them) send them back to the the luring country ?

Give me a break, since no one of you has answered that question since it's probably too difficult for you guys to say: "NO, the US wouldn't allow that"

LaoPo

Your first item was answered already. This action was approved by Thai authorities...so the US was here legally...and was welcomed.

For your second item, you know the answer already. What country would allow foreign agents to operate on their soil illegally? Your question should be, does the USA allow Foreign Intelligence Services to (LEGALLY) operate on American soil,....that would be the same situation as here in Thailand. And the answer is YES! I lived in San Diego and the DEA ran joint operation with Mexico all the time. They met in San Diego and planned out drug raids. It was not unusual to see a drug bust on TV, on American soil, with both US and Mexican agents involved.

But for sure many agents are there illegally, just like in your country. A few Russian and Chinese spies were busted recently. But I know for sure the US has spies in their country as well...it's a messed up game for sure.

You mentioned your government won't allow foreign agents on their soil. Why? Perhaps because they are sophisticated enough to operate on their own. We know this is not the case here in Thailand. But is the case in the US. Same Same, right?

Peace!!!! :jap:

[LaoPo]

<snip>

DEA: I'm not a specialist but are you saying that DEA agents can switch from drugs situations into weapons deals where ever they are ? hmmmm.....if that's the case it is even more worrying since that would allow permission of the country where they operate.

LaoPo

Wouldn't the DEA be involved because it relates to drug issues and FARC?

Why ask me; I don't know.

LaoPo