Cost Of Topsoil

[glomp]

There are several anecdotal tales of falangs fertilising old rice(choose your crop) lands and growing "alot more" than the thai farmers for a few square meters of test growing.

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains? I hope you understand what i mean

[WatersEdge]

The Anecdotal tales are valid.

Accounts of putting as much fertilizer and water as a crop can possibly utilize,

and receiving an unheard of yield

from soil that over the past hundred years has done next to nothing.

What's the mystery?

If you starve a child, and he grows up a runt, who's amazed?

And yes, what works on a few square meters will work on a thousand hectare.

Vice versa of course.

If you read University studies on record harvests somewhere else,

seek to duplicate the conditions here.

There are no shortcuts, no magic formulas, just real life crop parameters that always work.

Foreigners in Thailand are just cursed with the attraction for demonstration and test plots.

Just get with the farming already with what you know works elsewhere.

How much land is available? => Plant it ALL

Look at your little plants and ask if they look happy.

If they are pathetic find out quickly what they are missing.

Get it to them before they are runted.

There is no difference in plant requirements here versus Illinois or Nebraska, Australia, Brazil

other than they may have winter bearing down on them

and we can use all 365 days

Without benefit of magic

it is reasonable to grow 6X the standard acceptable yield on Corn

by two back to back crops on one rainy season,

starting early finishing late

with supplemental irrigation,

doubling the plant population,

and stacking the fertilizer onto the ground.

Why would I farm 6 rai when one will suffice?

Would any farmer not want 6X harvest?

So then what's the holdup?

Yeah, well, It probably won't work for me

Never be bashful about a well deserved profit.

Go ahead and make as much money on the animals as you can.

Money is hard enough to make,

you don't have to try to minimize it.

But that being said,

It's obvious that animal waste produced on the farm

has less transport cost if used on the farm.

Some hog farmers say they make as much money

on selling the manure,

as on the hogs.

I don't know anyone who doesn't bother to sell the hogs.

Forum members who raise hogs are doing great integrations with

Blended Rice Straw and Corn Cob

Black Soldier Fly,

Earthworm,

resulting in a finished product that Customers line up at the gate to buy.

I observe the Three F's as I consider what next to do with a given product.

Feed

Fuel

Fertilizer

The value descends in that order.

Food is worth more than Fuel, which in due course both decompose to Fertilizer

I've been known to shatter my own cutesy rule,

dumping extremely cheap feed as Fertilizer.

So you have to decide which is worth more,

manure with added labor sold in bags to someone else

or used immediately on your own crops.

Since I grow partly to feed the animals

on the byproducts of the cash crops,

it becomes a continual cycle.

What you refer to is integrated farming,

that is, finding as many multiple purposes as practical

for each asset available.

My once pumped river water serves three bulk purposes:

1. Water from wall nipples & Cooling the hogs in their splash bath

2. Flushes the waste out labor free

3. Water the crop.

My "weeds" and crop residue come straight to the hog barn or goat corral.

So labor spent weeding and harvesting does dual purpose in feeding.

My hog barn flushes onto a perfect level terrace

0.40m below the level of the hog barn floor.

with two additional terraces in reserve after the first is eventually saturated

That's the first step,

the entire terrace perfectly water leveled within 1 cm

so that all waste pans out and within a few hours has absorbed into the soil.

Next I improved the plan with transport trenches 0.60x0.60 m

then into 0.10 deep crop furrows 1m on center,

with the seed planted about 0.10m above the water mark,

where the wick effect of the soil keeps it continually damp.

Today's hog waste is on the plants roots tomorrow,

without further labor

and the large volume of flush water waters the plant

no additional irrigation.

Immediate exposure to widespread air and sunlight causes no manure smell

This terrace is fresh excavation clay,

stark without organic matter,

so it will require some time to become great crop soil.

When I see that present furrows are clogged with solids,

maybe a couple of crop cycles later,

then I'll flip the stark ridge dirt over it,

forming the new ridge where the first furrow was,

0.50m offset

As this periodic tumbling and mixing of the soil proceeds,

eventually the entire soil mass will be blended with hog manure.

The water of course leaches nutrients down into the soil,

so in years to come it would grow some marvelous deep rooted trees.

Should I ever grow rice on that terrace,

I'll have to reduce the amount of hog waste in the water,

as I'd get all stalk and no grain due to excessive Nitrogen.

In addition to animal waste,

look also for disposal problems in your local farm area.

Take anything plant matter that is free or cheap,

and put it somewhere, just gather it ALL onto your farm.

If you have to stack it a meter deep, great,

drench it in water and grow plants on top

with additional Nitrogen added to decompose the plant fiber.

Plants don't have to grow in soil.

A friend in North Carolina accepts truckloads of free tree leaves from the city cleanup crews.

They dump load after load on an asphalt parking lot behind his business.

He just rakes it flat and keeps a deer fence around it.

Year after year the mat continues to build, slowly decomposing

He grows fabulous gardens there every year.

I don't know anyone else growing tomatoes on asphalt

He never has to water it,

as the deep mat catches and retains holds so much rain water that plants can always reach a surplus

The open expanse of the parking lot also drains that direction, running up underneath the mat.

As a Thailand near equivalent,

my local granary will deliver a 7 ton six wheel truckload of corn cob to my farm,

for B2,800, which adds up B0.30 for material and B0.10 freight => B0.40 / kg Delivered

Corn Cob first as absorbent pig corral bedding,

then out to the field as mulch / fertilizer holding sponge

Working corn cob into the stickiest clay soil will certainly break it

and the opposite effect on sand, increasing the moisture retention capacity

In a year it has broken down to black nothing.

Corn Cob has more Potassium value than the cost of the material.

One more method....plant a vigorous green manure plant in your animal waste.

and multiply the volume of available plant fiber many times over.

Napier Grass Pennisetum purpureum is my favorite,

because it transplants from easily broken sprigs from a clump

multiplies 10X per month on good fertilizer and water

falls dormant in dry times, springing back immediately with start of rain

At less than 0.60 m tall it is good cow or goat feed.

As it grows to 2.50 m it is coarse as young bamboo

but of course becomes heavy mulch mass.

Slash it down, carry it where mulch is needed,

and the plant regrows immediately.

The coarse stems can be chopped in a forage chopper,

if you need a form

easy to handle

uniform to spread

quick to decompose.

It consumes a lot of water in times of abundance,

yet requires no care in drought.

Once established it canopies out shorter weed competition.

If you want to kill it, hit it two times lightly with Glyphosate (Roundup)

once to weaken it turning it yellow and sickly,

then two weeks later to knock it out

and it's gone

It is a very poor seeder, so is not invasive.

You must put it where you want it one sprig at a time.

It will clump slowly outward and root deep downward if it needs more water.

If your local market has strong demand for organic mulch,

it's a great convertor of bagged fertilizer to organic material.

Grow it wild, chop it fine, dry in the sun, and bag it for sale.

[turnpike]

watersedge,

wow. it was such a good reply i forgot the question. it's seems obvious you are passionate on what you speak about.

now i'm going to read it again.

thanks for an informative post.

tp

Edited October 17, 2010 by turnpike

[glomp]

WatersEdge, you just made one of the best replies to a thread i have ever read

You touched on the issue about anectdotal stories, my question was perhaps more about why the heck farmers or gentleman farmers don't continue doing it if they get such good results from trying.

[WatersEdge]

Thanks for the kind words Gents,

Shucks, if it was that wonderful I'd better go back and read it again myself.

It's necessary to look at the tiniest detail in our local area,

then also to study the big picture.

There is definitely a big picture shift coming to Thailand.

The farm trend which already happened in the US is coming to Thailand.

40 years ago it became infeasible to farm small land area.

A lot of people tending 40 acres simply couldn't make a living,

so there was a lot of adjustment as farmers did something different,

while the really good farmers bought 20 neighbors out.

I haven't heard the average size of a farm now,

but I'll guess it's approaching 1,000 acres.

In order to be good you have to be big.

That 20:1 shift is coming to Thailand.

It is inevitable even though I'm sure it sounds outlandish and cruel.

Even though the small plot Thai farmer can't see

his heavily equipped American counterpart,

he's there, producing Corn, Soybean and Rice so cheaply

that Thailand hasn't a chance to compete.

What you can't see still affects you.

For Thailand's Grain Policy,

they have a choice of continued restriction of grain imports

which in turn keeps domestic prices artificially high,

and which even so is perceived as too low for the little farmer to make a living.

And it's true, the little guy can't possibly make a living.

The game is to keep the little guy alive in poverty.

It's a losing game.

So as the little guys complain and protest

the government hands out unreasonable subsidies.

In 2008 they paid B8.50 for Corn,

when the Thai open market was B6.00 and

the World Commodity price was around B4.50

The government lost their shirt of course,

unable to pay their December 2008 IOU's to farmers until May 2009.

That 2008 corn sat in granaries racking up storage charge and going old,

until was sold only a few months ago in 2010

when the Thailand price rose briefly above B10

and the release of government Corn busted the price back down a bit.

If a country protects its inefficient farmers,

then it hurts itself somewhere else.

How does Thailand manage to export Pork and Chicken,

against producing countries that have reasonably priced grain?

The difference must be made up elsewhere,

from lower margins in the chain.

Farmers paid to lose their battle against mechanized farmers,

must take money away from a city worker or from some other industry.

That squandered money must come from somewhere.

My point is, the problem is not fixed, it is only perpetuated another year.

The trend in Thailand will be for

larger farms

more intensively mechanized,

and with year round irrigation

to make returns on the heavy farm investment necessary.

It will pay off nice after the painful transition,

because Thailand has a year round growing season

and a grand abundance of dry season water.

That's right,

Don't listen to all the squawling about how dry Thailand is,

it's pathetic, very heart wrenching.. but not true.

If they just apply common sense to retaining, conserving, and controlling the wise use of water,

we have more water than we know what to do with.

The annual productivity of Thailand will skyrocket in the process of consolidated mechanization

As already mentioned, the per crop yield is an easy step even for a small farmer,

just use more fertilizer and install supplemental irrigation

but it is easier yet for a big farmer who isn't saddled with wastefully small scale.

Just imagine the savings if Corn was harvested by machine rather than one cob at a time,

carried from the field on shoulders in sacks

[Beardog]

Waters edge

Thanks for the awesome well developed post. Worthy of being a pinned topic for sure. I have copied the info for later usage(next month) Thanks again!

Beardog

[Mikki]

HI totally agree with you watersedge. ive been looking around my area and the farms are to small often, and if they are bigger lack of money to farm and knowlegde and also the will to do all that work

I harvested some cassava this year and paid the workers after one week , most of them dident work next week so i asked why not work this week , mrs said they happy now have money

guess that thailand are up to great changes in the future, question is how long traditionall thinking will slow the development

Regards Mikk i

[IsaanAussie]

Mikki's post gives Glomp part of the answer to the OP and clarification. From personal experience you can find yourself working alone. Not because your a nasty bit of work but simply because the rice bowl is full enough and the eager helpers, family or not, simply aren't there, drunk, or are bored with hard work. If you are going to do anything more than pump chemicals onto the rice paddies, then you need to address the soil issue. Like most things in farming that means hard work, and I can see that if all that effort has to be done by one person instead of two or three, many people would just give up.

On the soil issue. Our pig sty block is covered in fill, subsoil at best that is soup when wet and concrete with five days of sunshine later. Absolute minute clay particle rubbish. I am going to attempt to improve it, alone, wish me luck

Isaan Aussie

[WatersEdge]

Hi Mikki,

World wide, numbers ultimately carry the day.

Feelings, Sentiments, Traditions, Politics all are secondary.

It's all about numbers.

If your numbers are good,

you win and thrive and excel.

If your numbers stink,

you fake it,

complain about it,

make excuses,

blame someone else....

protest on your tractor by blocking highways

and flop.

When farmers can't compete on the world market,

when the government can no longer afford to pay the farmers to fail,

and when food prices won't sustain wastefully small scale,

then farmers' children will do something different.

The annual rental price of land is very low compared to the purchase price

In the order of 1:50 out in the country,

with an even wider spread for farm land close to a city or on a main road.

I knew of one piece of ground that was 1:97,

and the foreigner thinking of buying it asked me what I thought.

I said something about 97 ways to lose your shirt all on one day

This means that elderly farmers are too old to work their land

their children are gone to the city and don't plan to return

and the land is idle unless it is rented very inexpensively.

The purchase price is therefore overpriced

This will take time to work out,

because in many cases there is a debt burden driving the "necessary sale price"

There is perceived price justification because they can't afford to sell for less than the debt.

Let's not get into that set of numbers,

but that's also why Thailand farm land price will crash even faster.

Other farmers can't buy out their neighbor because they all are saddled in debt.

There is also a prohibition against foreign entities owning Thailand real estate.

I remember the progressive waves of alarm that surged through the US in the 1980's

The Japanese are buying everything in sight!

The Saudis are going to own it all and we will rent from them in our own country!

The Germans are buying our farmland because they don't have enough in Germany

I said, Let them buy it all,

Who will they buy it from?

and once they Buy, Who will they sell it to?

The closer they get to buying it all,

it will be their money competing with their money,

and who wins?

They can't possibly buy it all

just as you or I couldn't buy it all.

I forecast Thailand's farm land prices to seriously fall,

just because there aren't enough Thais who appreciate a good piece of ground.

Wealthy Thais are typically city people with no connection or understanding of the farm district.

The break in land prices will come when after working parents pass away,

the city based children decide to dump the farm for whatever they can get,

and then again, and again, until the market is flooded.

That said, the true world numbers value of good land

in a no frost tropical climate with plenty of rainfall

is strong.

When a farmer isn't working to avoid the freeze,

a lot more can be done with staging crops,

to make full use of available equipment.

In the tropics we deal with the dry season

as the end of the production year.

That is fixable by irrigation.

Frost isn't fixable by a farm sized heater.

The next step which must be settled is

the corruption of the local government.

When a larger scale farm attempts to do business in an area,

Local officials can make or break an operation,

by their cooperation or obstruction.

I speak from unfortunate experience.

My business is not creating jobs in that village any longer.

They have themselves to blame for their own foolish poverty.

I have myself to blame for trusting their empty talk about wanting business activity.

They actually wanted easy money...a two legged ATM.

I would not pay anything that was not a legitimate business expense.

To even the playing field,

it is true that most tropical climates in the world

also have traditions with built in corruption,

so most everyone with Thailand's growing conditions

also has their self inflicted crippling

I say "most" because I haven't been everywhere and seen everything.

I don't know of an exception to the rule.

People in these places say they have to be corrupt because they are poor.

Nope...backward...you are poor because you are corrupt.

Clean up your act and watch business line up at your door!

Word gets around fast....in both regards...but bad news travels a little faster than good news.

I'm a foreign farm business guy.

If I knew of a country that was corruption free,

I'd leave Thailand in a heartbeat.

There is nothing magical here.

May the best organized win.

May the first tropical climate to mechanize on a large scale thrive and abound.

May the first locale to seriously stomp out corruption be covered up with outside investors.

May the second place finishers continue to notice no difference.

[ETC]

Hi Mikki,

World wide, numbers ultimately carry the day.

Feelings, Sentiments, Traditions, Politics all are secondary.

It's all about numbers.

If your numbers are good,

you win and thrive and excel.

If your numbers stink,

you fake it,

complain about it,

make excuses,

blame someone else....

protest on your tractor by blocking highways

and flop.

When farmers can't compete on the world market,

when the government can no longer afford to pay the farmers to fail,

and when food prices won't sustain wastefully small scale,

then farmers' children will do something different.

The annual rental price of land is very low compared to the purchase price

In the order of 1:50 out in the country,

with an even wider spread for farm land close to a city or on a main road.

I knew of one piece of ground that was 1:97,

and the foreigner thinking of buying it asked me what I thought.

I said something about 97 ways to lose your shirt all on one day

This means that elderly farmers are too old to work their land

their children are gone to the city and don't plan to return

and the land is idle unless it is rented very inexpensively.

The purchase price is therefore overpriced

This will take time to work out,

because in many cases there is a debt burden driving the "necessary sale price"

There is perceived price justification because they can't afford to sell for less than the debt.

Let's not get into that set of numbers,

but that's also why Thailand farm land price will crash even faster.

Other farmers can't buy out their neighbor because they all are saddled in debt.

There is also a prohibition against foreign entities owning Thailand real estate.

I remember the progressive waves of alarm that surged through the US in the 1980's

The Japanese are buying everything in sight!

The Saudis are going to own it all and we will rent from them in our own country!

The Germans are buying our farmland because they don't have enough in Germany

I said, Let them buy it all,

Who will they buy it from?

and once they Buy, Who will they sell it to?

The closer they get to buying it all,

it will be their money competing with their money,

and who wins?

They can't possibly buy it all

just as you or I couldn't buy it all.

I forecast Thailand's farm land prices to seriously fall,

just because there aren't enough Thais who appreciate a good piece of ground.

Wealthy Thais are typically city people with no connection or understanding of the farm district.

The break in land prices will come when after working parents pass away,

the city based children decide to dump the farm for whatever they can get,

and then again, and again, until the market is flooded.

That said, the true world numbers value of good land

in a no frost tropical climate with plenty of rainfall

is strong.

When a farmer isn't working to avoid the freeze,

a lot more can be done with staging crops,

to make full use of available equipment.

In the tropics we deal with the dry season

as the end of the production year.

That is fixable by irrigation.

Frost isn't fixable by a farm sized heater.

The next step which must be settled is

the corruption of the local government.

When a larger scale farm attempts to do business in an area,

Local officials can make or break an operation,

by their cooperation or obstruction.

I speak from unfortunate experience.

My business is not creating jobs in that village any longer.

They have themselves to blame for their own foolish poverty.

I have myself to blame for trusting their empty talk about wanting business activity.

They actually wanted easy money...a two legged ATM.

I would not pay anything that was not a legitimate business expense.

To even the playing field,

it is true that most tropical climates in the world

also have traditions with built in corruption,

so most everyone with Thailand's growing conditions

also has their self inflicted crippling

I say "most" because I haven't been everywhere and seen everything.

I don't know of an exception to the rule.

People in these places say they have to be corrupt because they are poor.

Nope...backward...you are poor because you are corrupt.

Clean up your act and watch business line up at your door!

Word gets around fast....in both regards...but bad news travels a little faster than good news.

I'm a foreign farm business guy.

If I knew of a country that was corruption free,

I'd leave Thailand in a heartbeat.

There is nothing magical here.

May the best organized win.

May the first tropical climate to mechanize on a large scale thrive and abound.

May the first locale to seriously stomp out corruption be covered up with outside investors.

May the second place finishers continue to notice no difference.

Very well said WatersEdge......As my father taught us, "success breeds success and failure breeds failure"

My personal attitude for living in Thailand has changed, and now I want to show by example and less by intervention.

Many centuries of doing it one way will not be changed by one Farang with a savior attitude. I love farming and

I will do it the best and most profitable way possible, with hard work and a true love for the land.

Edited March 14, 2011 by ETC

[Foreverford]

Hi Mikki,

World wide, numbers ultimately carry the day.

Feelings, Sentiments, Traditions, Politics all are secondary.

It's all about numbers.

If your numbers are good,

you win and thrive and excel.

If your numbers stink,

you fake it,

complain about it,

make excuses,

blame someone else....

protest on your tractor by blocking highways

and flop.

When farmers can't compete on the world market,

when the government can no longer afford to pay the farmers to fail,

and when food prices won't sustain wastefully small scale,

then farmers' children will do something different.

The annual rental price of land is very low compared to the purchase price

In the order of 1:50 out in the country,

with an even wider spread for farm land close to a city or on a main road.

I knew of one piece of ground that was 1:97,

and the foreigner thinking of buying it asked me what I thought.

I said something about 97 ways to lose your shirt all on one day

This means that elderly farmers are too old to work their land

their children are gone to the city and don't plan to return

and the land is idle unless it is rented very inexpensively.

The purchase price is therefore overpriced

This will take time to work out,

because in many cases there is a debt burden driving the "necessary sale price"

There is perceived price justification because they can't afford to sell for less than the debt.

Let's not get into that set of numbers,

but that's also why Thailand farm land price will crash even faster.

Other farmers can't buy out their neighbor because they all are saddled in debt.

There is also a prohibition against foreign entities owning Thailand real estate.

I remember the progressive waves of alarm that surged through the US in the 1980's

The Japanese are buying everything in sight!

The Saudis are going to own it all and we will rent from them in our own country!

The Germans are buying our farmland because they don't have enough in Germany

I said, Let them buy it all,

Who will they buy it from?

and once they Buy, Who will they sell it to?

The closer they get to buying it all,

it will be their money competing with their money,

and who wins?

They can't possibly buy it all

just as you or I couldn't buy it all.

I forecast Thailand's farm land prices to seriously fall,

just because there aren't enough Thais who appreciate a good piece of ground.

Wealthy Thais are typically city people with no connection or understanding of the farm district.

The break in land prices will come when after working parents pass away,

the city based children decide to dump the farm for whatever they can get,

and then again, and again, until the market is flooded.

That said, the true world numbers value of good land

in a no frost tropical climate with plenty of rainfall

is strong.

When a farmer isn't working to avoid the freeze,

a lot more can be done with staging crops,

to make full use of available equipment.

In the tropics we deal with the dry season

as the end of the production year.

That is fixable by irrigation.

Frost isn't fixable by a farm sized heater.

The next step which must be settled is

the corruption of the local government.

When a larger scale farm attempts to do business in an area,

Local officials can make or break an operation,

by their cooperation or obstruction.

I speak from unfortunate experience.

My business is not creating jobs in that village any longer.

They have themselves to blame for their own foolish poverty.

I have myself to blame for trusting their empty talk about wanting business activity.

They actually wanted easy money...a two legged ATM.

I would not pay anything that was not a legitimate business expense.

To even the playing field,

it is true that most tropical climates in the world

also have traditions with built in corruption,

so most everyone with Thailand's growing conditions

also has their self inflicted crippling

I say "most" because I haven't been everywhere and seen everything.

I don't know of an exception to the rule.

People in these places say they have to be corrupt because they are poor.

Nope...backward...you are poor because you are corrupt.

Clean up your act and watch business line up at your door!

Word gets around fast....in both regards...but bad news travels a little faster than good news.

I'm a foreign farm business guy.

If I knew of a country that was corruption free,

I'd leave Thailand in a heartbeat.

There is nothing magical here.

May the best organized win.

May the first tropical climate to mechanize on a large scale thrive and abound.

May the first locale to seriously stomp out corruption be covered up with outside investors.

May the second place finishers continue to notice no difference.

So it seems and in reality is. They have been throwing around a # like 370 acres as being the most efficient piece of farm property to work and manage. There are plenty of individuals that make good profits on multi-thousand acre farms in some o0f the best land in the world in the Sacramento Delta in California but they inherited the land. I don't think they could make it by buying the land. Hell unlevel crop land in Monterey Bay area of California hit $10,000 an acre in the early 80's (I'll take a 100 and don't need a bag to carry it). Impossible for an individual to get into it and make a good profit.

The Japanese came in and started buying all kinds of golf courses, hotels and farms in the US in the 80's and everyone freaked and said Japan was going to own all of America. If I remember the numbers correctly at the time for foreign ownership in the US it was something like 1+% for Japanese, just under 5% for the Brits and the Dutch hold almost 11% of US real estate (are we talking about Dupont and Shell here?). Farm lands have always been a great corporate write-off as short term profits aren't always the motivating factor for corporate purchase of farm land. Like old Will Rogers said, "My daddy told me 'buy real estate, it's a good investment, they don't make it no more' ".

Without good organization at any level you will always be victim to injury, loss of time, efficiency, and profits, that will never change no matter what size of a bite you chose to take off of the apple of farming. When the Japanese were forced to sell Pebble Beach Golf Course in the late 80's because they ran out of money, Clint Eastwood, Arnie Palmer and Peter Uberroth among a few others bought it for about $660 million quite a bit below the $1.2 billion the Japanese had in the deal. So buy man buy then bye bye.

Hey Edge of the Water leasing is a great deal both ways sort of as I have been observing here. I've met Falong that are more than happy to lease out their rice farms and get a % of the crop. We have a leasehold for non-organic growing that is also very reasonable for us but it involves a strictly cash deal as I won't ever give up a % of my crop as I am too much of a gambler to do that. As always we are fortunate and lucky to benefit from your extensive knowledge of all things in farming. All Things in Ford Farming Forever

Edited March 14, 2011 by Foreverford

[IsaanAussie]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Edited March 15, 2011 by IsaanAussie

[ETC]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Edited March 15, 2011 by ETC

[IsaanAussie]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Hi ETC, long time

Currently I have 15 sows. Basically 4 farrowing per month. On the compost side, still the same around 1,000 litres a week.

IA

[ETC]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Hi ETC, long time

Currently I have 15 sows. Basically 4 farrowing per month. On the compost side, still the same around 1,000 litres a week.

IA

Hi IA, it has been a long time.

The wife and I have been in the United States for some time while I sell off my farm and all the livestock. I really hate to see it all go, but

we are going to rebuild in Thailand and the new adventure, at 68 will be exciting for me.

Yesterday I was researching Ford tractors online at the Mit Alai Tractor Company in Bangkok and I think I have settled on a Ford 4WD 6610 or 7710 to start with, as buying a tractor will mean I have landed. I sorta favor the 7710 for row crop work.

What are your thoughts on that?

Jim (etc)

Edited March 15, 2011 by ETC

[Foreverford]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Hi ETC, long time

Currently I have 15 sows. Basically 4 farrowing per month. On the compost side, still the same around 1,000 litres a week.

IA

Hi IA, it has been a long time.

The wife and I have been in the United States for some time while I sell off my farm and all the livestock. I really hate to see it all go, but

we are going to rebuild in Thailand and the new adventure, at 68 will be exciting for me.

Yesterday I was researching Ford tractors online at the Mit Alai Tractor Company in Bangkok and I think I have settled on a Ford 4WD 6610 or 7710 to start with, as buying a tractor will mean I have landed. I sorta favor the 7710 for row crop work.

What are your thoughts on that?

Jim (etc)

Hey jim start a new topic with this so it can get out and be hashed a bit. FFF 6610

[ETC]

I'm glad this thread has been brought back to life as I have been meaning to address the OP question for a while. That was:

My question for you is how realistic it would be to run a pig/chicken farm as a "driver" for farming. Lets say pigs are bred and grown at cost or a small profit integrated with a larger area of rice/trees/cassava/dragon fruit to build top soil.

Combine the animal <deleted> with worms seems like a "no brainer" way to grow excelent top soil to grow just about anything.

Would the machine work required to distribute the "optimal" top soil cancel out the gains?

Answer: No way, I my case a bag of compost sold from the sty reveals many times the tractor operating cost of incorporation. If I hired another tractor then the value of the compost that could be incorporated into the soil in a hour would more than pay the cost. So, if I use half the compost that I produce and sell the other half. Cost neutral at worst.

Now reality, I cant produce enough to satisfy customer requirements during peak seasons, so I am hoping that I can sneak a bit for myself and start some long overdue soil rebuilding.

Isaan Aussie

Hi IA

It is very obvious to me that you have all your numbers under control and require no, imput from me on pig farming. I am curious to know however, how many hogs you are raising. On my farm in South Dakota, I never raised more then 3-15 hogs at any given time, as mine was not a hog farm. The pig, cattle, horse, and chicken compost I spread on three large gardens and the rest on the fields. I never had any left over to bag and sell.

Jim {etc}

Hi ETC, long time

Currently I have 15 sows. Basically 4 farrowing per month. On the compost side, still the same around 1,000 litres a week.

IA

Hi again IA

Was sitting here thinking about your hogs and was wondering what breed you are raising? All my neighbors will be busting ground pretty soon and for the first time in 30+ years I will be

sitting on my hands. All my tractors have been sold and I can't even drive them around the farm and look busy. The best I can do is drive around in my 1-ton Dually remembering when..

Jim {etc}

[IsaanAussie]

Primary breed is Duroc. Enjoy the break.

[ETC]

Primary breed is Duroc. Enjoy the break.

My primary breed was Poland China. They have all been sold and the pens are empty now.

[IsaanAussie]

Primary breed is Duroc. Enjoy the break.

My primary breed was Poland China. They have all been sold and the pens are empty now.

Jim,

Admit it. You miss them, don't you? Never mind, come over and play with my two new boars, great little guys.

A Duroc built like a tank, no neck, huge sholders and hips, and ripped chest, only two months old and rearing to go. A Landrace, a month older and letting everybody know he intends to be the boss and sort out the sows. Both have that certain swagger.

The only working boar I have at the moment is a bit of a wet blanket in the personality stakes and will be taking a one way trip when the others are ready. I named him Cyril, works well and was as easy as pie to train but arh.... not what I want!

Isaan Aussie

[ETC]

Primary breed is Duroc. Enjoy the break.

My primary breed was Poland China. They have all been sold and the pens are empty now.

Jim,

Admit it. You miss them, don't you? Never mind, come over and play with my two new boars, great little guys.

A Duroc built like a tank, no neck, huge sholders and hips, and ripped chest, only two months old and rearing to go. A Landrace, a month older and letting everybody know he intends to be the boss and sort out the sows. Both have that certain swagger.

The only working boar I have at the moment is a bit of a wet blanket in the personality stakes and will be taking a one way trip when the others are ready. I named him Cyril, works well and was as easy as pie to train but arh.... not what I want!

Isaan Aussie

Isaan Aussie

Yes I do miss them but not enough to let them move in my house like some folks....ha ha ha... Your boar Cyril reminds me of an old bull and a young bull standing on a hill looking down on a herd of young heifers. The young bull looks at the old bull and says; "what do ya say we run down the hill and mount one of those young heifers", the old bull with a twinkle in his eye says: "what do ya say we walk down the hill and mount them all"? Maybe Cyril is pacing himself.

Jim {etc}