Thai army chief: Political gatherings banned during UN chief's visit

[bulmercke]

What I'll give you jdinasia is this:

1. You're political - that's for sure.

2. You're articulate - a good way with words.

BUT - sorry on this count you're very wrong.

Why continue to bother arguing against the indefensible. You know you're wrong.

Your feeble attempts to counter Dan Rivers very truthful reporting are starting to reflect very badly on you.

CNN and the BBC reported professionally. Sorry if that irks you.

Hey - you also forgot to mention that perhaps they were aiming at the Easter Bunny.

[philw]

What I'll give you jdinasia is this:

1. You're political - that's for sure.

2. You're articulate - a good way with words.

BUT - sorry on this count you're very wrong.

Why continue to bother arguing against the indefensible. You know you're wrong.

Your feeble attempts to counter Dan Rivers very truthful reporting are starting to reflect very badly on you.

CNN and the BBC reported professionally. Sorry if that irks you.

Hey - you also forgot to mention that perhaps they were aiming at the Easter Bunny.

Spot on and to the point.

Thank you.

[chantorn]

What I'll give you jdinasia is this:

1. You're political - that's for sure.

2. You're articulate - a good way with words.

BUT - sorry on this count you're very wrong.

Why continue to bother arguing against the indefensible. You know you're wrong.

Your feeble attempts to counter Dan Rivers very truthful reporting are starting to reflect very badly on you.

CNN and the BBC reported professionally. Sorry if that irks you.

Hey - you also forgot to mention that perhaps they were aiming at the Easter Bunny.

Spot on and to the point.

Thank you.

I don't know who the army are shooting. Red-shirts or Easter Bunny.

All I know is that shooting life bullets is bad.

[philw]

Oh .. I would suggest that they were

1) firing to kill people that were firing at them (yeah, you are right, Red shirts)

2) laying down suppressing fire (keeping red shirts pinned down)

3) firing in the direction of people that were firing at them to keep those people pinned down where they couldn't get clear shots (another version of suppressing fire)

4) targeting redshirt "ronin" probably dressed in black, but possibly even dressed in army gear.

Bulmerke ---- please stick to what is being discussed. Did you even listen to what Dan Rivers was saying? He was one of the most "red leaning" biased reporters out there short of Nick. He wouldn't go on the record as saying that the Army (or only the army) was shooting the people

JD are you in Thailand ???

The army were shooting to kill and the evidence is incontrovertible.

The only people who say the army did not kill anybody are you,the army and a couple of others on TV.

To the rest of the world it's a given.

[Buchholz]

"Thai press card", "Student card", "techer card", "Driving license", etc are 200 Baht baht each, sold openly at Khao San Road. Yes, openly on the main street itself.

This is the last time i comment to such insinuations.

I am accredited in Thailand as a foreign correspondent. My press card has been issued by the Public Relations Department, after thorough check ups by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

If you suggest one more time that i have broken the law by using a fake press card - we will meet in court. Libel is a criminal offense in Thailand, and will be punished by a prison term. Be warned - the internet is not as anonymous as you may think.

I found this post funny. It reminds me of Jatuporn.

Has it been verified that it is not?

The other aspect of course being that anyone on the Net can claim to be anyone they choose.

Thaivisa has a member calling himself Mr. Bean. But I don't believe it's Rowan Atkinson.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Buchholz

[hanuman1]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

[Siam Simon]

Except that the post that you say was modified was not modified in any way, shape or form. I repeat that you are a bare faced liar for suggesting this. And you have pathetically reverted to trying to hide behind a mod. Here is what SBK wrote in an attempt to diffuse an argument between you (one of the arch-forum bullys) and me, along with my reply:

And here is the thread in which the post by TallForeigner that you lied about being deleted as a quote from my post was made. The original post by TallForeigner is still there, along with your reply (which quotes the pertinent part of the post made by TallForeigner), along with several other posts quoting TallForeigner's post. The mods obviously felt no need to do any deleting there, did they?:

Time for you to stop hiding behind a mod's diplomacy and man-up, forum liar.

BTW, Anyone wanting to see how the forum's little tag team of right wing bullies (of which 'Insight' is a leading member) operates only needs to spend a few minutes reading the above tagged posts.

[Siam Simon]

What I'll give you jdinasia is this:

1. You're political - that's for sure.

2. You're articulate - a good way with words.

BUT - sorry on this count you're very wrong.

Why continue to bother arguing against the indefensible. You know you're wrong.

Your feeble attempts to counter Dan Rivers very truthful reporting are starting to reflect very badly on you.

CNN and the BBC reported professionally. Sorry if that irks you.

Hey - you also forgot to mention that perhaps they were aiming at the Easter Bunny.

The BBC irked on Thai Visa's right wing clique after Jonathan Head exposed the PAD as being considerably more sinister than a popular uprising of nice people against Thaksin and his allies. He had a first class record of exposing Thaksin's mis-doings, but when he turned his keen journalistic eye to the sinister carry-ons of Thaksin's foes, he was labelled by Thai Visa's tag team of right wing bullies 'Dick Head, the hack journalist'.

[Siam Simon]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Yes, no probs. My wife is Thai. Our kids are luk krung. Our business interests are in Europe (mainly the UK). We split out time between the UK, Thailand and occasional short(but we wish they were taller) visits to the Canary Islands.

[Siam Simon]

"Thai press card", "Student card", "techer card", "Driving license", etc are 200 Baht baht each, sold openly at Khao San Road. Yes, openly on the main street itself.

This is the last time i comment to such insinuations.

I am accredited in Thailand as a foreign correspondent. My press card has been issued by the Public Relations Department, after thorough check ups by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

If you suggest one more time that i have broken the law by using a fake press card - we will meet in court. Libel is a criminal offense in Thailand, and will be punished by a prison term. Be warned - the internet is not as anonymous as you may think.

I found this post funny. It reminds me of Jatuporn.

Has it been verified that it is not?

The other aspect of course being that anyone on the Net can claim to be anyone they choose.

Thaivisa has a member calling himself Mr. Bean. But I don't believe it's Rowan Atkinson.

I'm Sriracha John.

[Buchholz]

The other aspect of course being that anyone on the Net can claim to be anyone they choose.

I'm Sriracha John.

I rest my case.

Just like Nick Nostitz, it is a made up name to begin with.

[Siam Simon]

The other aspect of course being that anyone on the Net can claim to be anyone they choose.

I'm Sriracha John.

I rest my case.

Just like Nick Nostitz, it is a made up name to begin with.

Except that Nick Nostitz reports his real life experiences and publishes photos of them, as opposed to yourself, who posts edited news posts and photos.

[Insight]

Except that the post that you say was modified was not modified in any way, shape or form. I repeat that you are a bare faced liar for suggesting this. And you have pathetically reverted to trying to hide behind a mod. Here is what SBK wrote in an attempt to diffuse an argument between you (one of the arch-forum bullys) and me, along with my reply:

And here is the thread in which the post by TallForeigner that you lied about being deleted as a quote from my post was made. The original post by TallForeigner is still there, along with your reply (which quotes the pertinent part of the post made by TallForeigner), along with several other posts quoting TallForeigner's post. The mods obviously felt no need to do any deleting there, did they?:

Time for you to stop hiding behind a mod's diplomacy and man-up, forum liar.

BTW, Anyone wanting to see how the forum's little tag team of right wing bullies (of which 'Insight' is a leading member) operates only needs to spend a few minutes reading the above tagged posts.

Another refusal. "Man up"?

People can now decide for themselves.

[Buchholz]

The other aspect of course being that anyone on the Net can claim to be anyone they choose.

I'm Sriracha John.

I rest my case.

Just like Nick Nostitz, it is a made up name to begin with.

Except that Nick Nostitz reports his real life experiences and publishes photos of them, as opposed to yourself, who posts edited news posts and photos.

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

[Siam Simon]

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

And you edit them without informing your audience. That's one of the reasons why you kept getting banned from the Thai Visa forum.

[Buchholz]

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

And you edit them without informing your audience.

For example?

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

And you edit them without informing your audience.

For example?

You just did it.

[Buchholz]

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

And you edit them without informing your audience.

For example?

You just did it.

LOL. I'll let you get your thoughts together and hopefully you can post more clearly next time.

p.s. As a helpful clue, I haven't posted news and photos in this thread.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

[chantorn]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Innocent until proven guilty? Never heard of this?

[Buchholz]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

John, don't you realise that you are prattling on about yourself?

[Buchholz]

Have some coffee, perhaps that'll help you get things sorted when you post.

I'll check back in from time to time and see if you're making any sense then.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[Siam Simon]

Have some coffee, perhaps that'll help you get things sorted when you post.

I'll check back in from time to time and see if you're making any sense then.

Another thing, John: Why do you edit every single post? Baffling.

[Buchholz]

Have some coffee, perhaps that'll help you get things sorted when you post.

I'll check back in from time to time and see if you're making any sense then.

Another thing, John: Why do you edit every single post? Baffling.

Well, you're getting better. A question that's pretty much answerable.

1. I don't edit every post.

2. When I do edit a post, it's normally because I've misspelled a word or left out a word.

3. Rather than just let it go, I'll actually go back and edit out the mistake.

4. It's a trait I picked up whereby accuracy is important to me.

5. I hope that relieves you of being baffled.

*edit. See? I originally typed for 2. :

Rather just let...

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[philw]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

.............is there something wrong with deriving income from photographing prostitutes ???

What slur are you attempting ??

[Buchholz]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

.............is there something wrong with deriving income from photographing prostitutes ???

What slur are you attempting ??

There's nothing wrong with photographing prostitutes per se. Police do it all the time for mugshots.

But as an example, I don't rely on a Hustler magazine photographer for my on-the-ground news on current events .

[hammered]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Good post.

I have no vested interests but just enjoy political debate. To the best of my knowledge and memory nobody I know has suffered loss during the struggle although a few have made small finacial gain. I like I would guess most toher foreigners married into Thai family have relatives who support both sides and many who suppor tneither or dont like politics. I know people who have been both yellow and then red, yellow then turned on them and red and then turned on them. Really it is all up to the Thai people to resolve their poltical differences and we have to accept this. However it can be stimulating, interestiong etc to discuss things and sometimes everyone gets a little carried away I think.

My feeling is that the red shirt demands for respect for election outcome is totally fine and right even if consdiering vote buying. Plenty of developing countries go through a phase of elections that are no perfect or even flawed. It is a process of development. I also think the yellow shirt demands for proper chaecks and balances that can deal with even the most powerful if they err beyond doubt is totally valid. In fact if you put these two demands from 2 sides together you pretty much have a working developed democracy. On the other hand I have little time for the leaderships of either colours and dislike the red links to a major human rights abuser and dislike the yellows links to shadowy powers. The various poltical parties are aslo very unappealing. I guess my take is that there is hope with what people demand from all sides but that there is also a lot of manipualtion and use of people to further other less promising agendas.

Im also not sure how this thread has degenerated into an attack on Nick Nostitz thread but would add that Nick is a genuine photo-journalist of many years experience who has covered a variety of issues in this country and as far as I am aware is both respected by his colleagues and known and respected by many, but not all, players in this game on all sides. We have disagreed on some things and agreed on others many times but his views are valid, articulate and well argued and if you want to debate or disagree with him you will need to make sure your own arguements are the same. He is also well informed on what is happening by dint of being a jounalist too and having acces to people and information a lot of us dont either.

[philw]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Good post.

I have no vested interests but just enjoy political debate. To the best of my knowledge and memory nobody I know has suffered loss during the struggle although a few have made small finacial gain. I like I would guess most toher foreigners married into Thai family have relatives who support both sides and many who suppor tneither or dont like politics. I know people who have been both yellow and then red, yellow then turned on them and red and then turned on them. Really it is all up to the Thai people to resolve their poltical differences and we have to accept this. However it can be stimulating, interestiong etc to discuss things and sometimes everyone gets a little carried away I think.

My feeling is that the red shirt demands for respect for election outcome is totally fine and right even if consdiering vote buying. Plenty of developing countries go through a phase of elections that are no perfect or even flawed. It is a process of development. I also think the yellow shirt demands for proper chaecks and balances that can deal with even the most powerful if they err beyond doubt is totally valid. In fact if you put these two demands from 2 sides together you pretty much have a working developed democracy. On the other hand I have little time for the leaderships of either colours and dislike the red links to a major human rights abuser and dislike the yellows links to shadowy powers. The various poltical parties are aslo very unappealing. I guess my take is that there is hope with what people demand from all sides but that there is also a lot of manipualtion and use of people to further other less promising agendas.

Im also not sure how this thread has degenerated into an attack on Nick Nostitz thread but would add that Nick is a genuine photo-journalist of many years experience who has covered a variety of issues in this country and as far as I am aware is both respected by his colleagues and known and respected by many, but not all, players in this game on all sides. We have disagreed on some things and agreed on others many times but his views are valid, articulate and well argued and if you want to debate or disagree with him you will need to make sure your own arguements are the same. He is also well informed on what is happening by dint of being a jounalist too and having acces to people and information a lot of us dont either.

Thank you for this calm and well expressed opinion.

You make good points.

Hope this type of posting can prevail and we all move away from the mudslinging and pathetic inuendo.

philw

[Insight]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Good question. Firstly how the protests have affected me personally this year:

Personally: My wife had booked into a clinic at Ratchaprasong a few weeks before the red shirts invaded, deposits all paid and preperation (injects, pills) had begun. Red shirts moved in a week or so beforehand giving us a 2km walk from clinic to transportation at Lumpini Park (I wrote about one walk to the clinic here). Not desirable but already financially committed. Anyhow, procedure failed - could of been for any number of reasons but obviously the walk and raised anxiety didn't help. Financially and emotionally draining.

Less personally but still significant: sis-in-law in labour and had trouble getting through the red barricade into Chula hospital where they had been booked in - this was around the same time the red shirts stormed the place. Ultimately resulted in turning around and going to Ramathibodi instead. Sis-in-law ended up giving birth in the car on the way there. He's fine now - hardly see him upset, in fact.

Anecdotal but my former place of employment is on Chid Lom which has been providing a 24/7 e-related service since 1998. Despite the infrastructure woes in Thailand it had still mostly managed to achieve this until the end of the rally when all communications lines in the area were cut - was then out for three days. Most traffic was relocated outside Thailand, however there's still downtime and resulting loss in business and customer confidence to consider.

I have lived in Thailand since 2001, married for the past three years. While Thailand has some maturity to go through politically I consider the current administration the (much) lesser evil.

In my 13 years of communicating via the 'net I have never seen the level of scummy tactics I've observed on this thread by a certain forum user, so am therefore hesitant to divulge any further personal details now publicly. There's always the PM button however...