Scaffolding In Front Of Central World Bangkok Collapses, Killing 2

[phiphidon]

The only thing I'm surprised of is that within 2-1/2 hours there are 80 replies to this topic. The article on 'Red Power' magazine only has 23 in seven hours. Either a slow day, or the political engaged are not awake yet

Probably because most of the politically engaged posters (of whatever persuasion) think that this is probably just a tragic accident, the full details of which have not yet been released. Some posters (and I am not referring to you, Rubi) however, seem to be pushing cause and effect to the utmost. The butterfly effect and its link with chaos theory comes to mind? RIP to those killed and a speedy recovery to the injured.

[random]

I am getting worried, this is twice you have agreed with me today

In my defense, I didn't completely agree with you.

[hansnl]

I Certainly hope the dodgy construction company and the RED Shirt criminals can be made accountable for these unfortunate alas additional victims.

What did the red shirts have to do with it?

If......

The red shirts had not firebombed the building.......

There would not be any (re)building necessary......

There would not have been any scaffolding necessary.......

Which might fall down (and did) for any imaginable kind of reason, as there are.........

Edited October 29, 2010 by hansnl

[random]

I Certainly hope the dodgy construction company and the RED Shirt criminals can be made accountable for these unfortunate alas additional victims.

What did the red shirts have to do with it?

If......

The red shirts had not firebombed the building.......

There would not be any (re)building necessary......

There would not have been any scaffolding necessary.......

Which might fall down (and did) for any imaginable kind of reason, as there are.........

We have already discussed a chain of causation, and that was broken long ago my friend, or if you wish we can take the chain back to the coup and lay the blame there.

[hansnl]

and if the building was never constructed the red shirts could not have burned it down, etc etc etc

You should have been a lawyer! "Your Honor. If the bank was never built my client wouldn't have help it up therefore it's the banks fault!"

You seem to forget that these repairs were required as a direct result of a criminal act therefore some blame has to lie with the perpetrators.

Not at all, the chain of causation would have been broken a long time ago, the cause of this accident was not the fact a building burnt down (as yet we we still don't know who torched it, there are conflicting versions), the cause of this accident was based on either the failure of the scaffold or human error in it's construction.

I have said it a couple of times in here, but to blame the reds for this is simply pathetic.

The reason for my comment about not being built was to point out the stupidity of the argument, if it wasn't built, if there wasn't a coup, if thaksin wasn't born, if the airports were not taken over etc etc etc.

How far back do we want to take this chain of causation? if it wasn't for the coup then the reds would not have been out etc etc etc, do you see how pointless it is?

Now if an of you legal eagles would like to show me the chain of causation I will happily show you a break in the chain of causation.

If you know something about history you would know that things happened in the past can spread their influence for a very long time.

Legally?

Ah legally!

Legal is just like justice.

Something written down but not really understood.

Not by those who wrote it, not by those who have to use it.

And how far you must go back you ask.

Something that happened 1-2 years ago is a very short time ago.

If people are condemned or executed for crimes 20-30 years after the deed, I think that people can be blamed, if even only morally, for deeds done 1-2 years ago.

[mufcsamui]

If the red shirts hadn't burned it down - they wouldn't have scaffolding around it to repair it. Pretty obvious I would have thought?

I Certainly hope the dodgy construction company and the RED Shirt criminals can be made accountable for these unfortunate alas additional victims.

What did the red shirts have to do with it?

and if the building was never constructed the red shirts could not have burned it down, etc etc etc

Try to remember the Red Shirts are to blame for everything that is wrong in Thailand

[moskito]

and I wonder how something can collapse I cant even find a translation in german for

[rixalex]

I have said it a couple of times in here, but to blame the reds for this is simply pathetic.

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

[rixalex]

Try to remember the Red Shirts are to blame for everything that is wrong in Thailand

I thought it was the elite...

[random]

I have said it a couple of times in here, but to blame the reds for this is simply pathetic.

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

of course not, I would blame the person for the error that caused the death, as for the vandals i would blame them for burning the house down, I guess you would want me to blame them for not winning the lottery, poor tv reception etc etc.

There is a chain of causation, why blame someone for something that is clearly someone elses fault. Are you one of these people that goes through life blaming everyone else, even when the mistake is yours? As I said If people want to blame the redshirts then lets take it back further and look at why the redshirts were there, lets go back to the yellows, or the coup, or thaksins birth, how far do you want to take this nonsense?

[thaihome]

I wonder how it collapsed, poor construction of the scaffold or corrosion, my money would be on the first one. I would not go on a building site in this country for love nor money.

That makes two of us, OSHA would have a field day here in this country, probably close almost all construction sites down for unsafe practices.

Actually that is completely incorrect and is only your personal observation based on seeing a small percentage of the construction taking place in Thailand. This is compounded by the fact that the small percentage you do see is in the commercial and residential sector which is always the last to incorporate high safety standards.

What I see today in those sectors is very similar to the standards I encountered when I started in construction in mid 1970s.

I have personal knowledge of industrial sites in Thailand that have worked in excess of tens of millions of hours over the past 10 years with safety records that are past any OSHA standards. But unfortunately, the commercial and residential sectors have lagged behind, but continue to show improvement.

TH

Edited October 29, 2010 by thaihome

[trainman34014]

Try to remember the Red Shirts are to blame for everything that is wrong in Thailand

I thought it was the elite...

Wrong again........Farang are to blame for everything.

RIP the poor lads who have died as a result of another typical screw-up in the Land Of Screw-Ups.

[rixalex]

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

of course not, I would blame the person for the error that caused the death, as for the vandals i would blame them for burning the house down,

"Of course not" is i think not a terribly honest answer.

Unless you are not human.

[whybother]

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

of course not, I would blame the person for the error that caused the death, as for the vandals i would blame them for burning the house down,

"Of course not" is i think not a terribly honest answer.

Unless you are not human.

An honest answer would be that he would blame anyone that came within shouting distance. But that doesn't make it their fault.

[lovenim]

Or someone took out random bolts to sell them. The Thais will often steal 3 bolts out of a 4 bolt light post, leaving 1 holding the light post up.

appalling... but understandable. consider the distribution of wealth in this country... if I were poor I too would steal from the rich where i can. only normal.

so, in that line if logic, do not blame the red shirts whose fault it is that the building is under construction but the yellow shirts whose fault it is that there are so many poor.

[phiphidon]

<br>

<br>I have said it a couple of times in here, but to blame the reds for this is simply pathetic.<br><br>

<br><br>Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay <i>any </i>of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?<br><br>

<br><br>An accident is generally attributed to being an unexpected event. In your example above you bring in the added dimension of personal feelings. Now, the relatives of the dead and injured <i>may </i>blame the redshirts of being responsible for the accident due to their personal feelings, or may not. I don't feel that it is justified for you to blame the redshirts for this <i>accident</i> on their behalf, or is it just for your benefit?

<div><br></div><div>EDIT - An apology to Rivalex - Sorry, <b>I thought</b> from your reply that <b>you had stated the reds were responsible for the accident</b>. Having read through the thread again, <b>this is not the case</b>. Judging from your reply I lumped you in with the rest. However my viewpoint above is aimed at those who have done.</div>

Edited October 29, 2010 by phiphidon

[EmptyMind]

I wonder how it collapsed, poor construction of the scaffold or corrosion, my money would be on the first one. I would not go on a building site in this country for love nor money.

That makes two of us, OSHA would have a field day here in this country, probably close almost all construction sites down for unsafe practices.

I have personal knowledge of industrial sites in Thailand that have worked in excess of tens of millions of hours over the past 10 years TH

I hope you didn't study maths as well because just 1 million hours is about 114 years, never mind these tens of millions of hours that you are talking about.

[Suradit]

Nothing shocks or surprises me anymore in 'Amazing Thailand'..... it's now become 'Amusing Thailand'!

I guess construction accidents, mining disasters and the supremacy of profits over safety are uniquely Thai??

Maybe Thais should follow the example set by farang businesses like the totally altruistic British Petroleum (just to randomly take one example from many).

• March 23, 2005: Texas City Refinery explosion. An explosion occurred at a British Petroleum refinery in Texas City, Texas. It is the third largest refinery in the United States and one of the largest in the world, processing 433,000 barrels of crude oil per day and accounting for 3% of that nation's gasoline supply. Over 100 were injured, and 15 were confirmed dead, including employees of the Fluor Corporation as well as BP. BP has since accepted that its employees contributed to the accident. Several level indicators failed, leading to overfilling of a knock out drum, and light hydrocarbons concentrated at ground level throughout the area. A nearby running diesel truck set off the explosion.
• December 11, 2005: Hertfordshire Oil Storage Terminal fire. A series of explosions at the Buncefield oil storage depot, described as the largest peacetime explosion in Europe, devastated the terminal and many surrounding properties. There were no fatalities. Total damages have been forecast as £750 million.
• February 7, 2010: 2010 Connecticut power plant explosion. A large explosion occurred at a Kleen Energy Systems 620-megawatt, Siemens combined cycle gas- and oil- fired power plant in Middletown, Connecticut, United States. Preliminary reports attributed the cause of the explosion to a test of the plant's energy systems.^[14] The plant was still under construction and scheduled to start supplying energy in June 2010.^[15] The number of injuries was eventually established to be 27.^[16] Five people died in the explosion.^[17]
• April 20, 2010: Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. 11 oil platform workers died in an explosion and fire that resulted in a massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, considered the largest offshore spill in U.S. history.^[18]

It amazes me how whenever some unfortunate incident occurs in Thailand, rather than lamenting the callous, casual attitudes putting people at risk everywhere in the world, the myopic chorus of old ladies act as if these things only happen in Thailand and only because Thais don't have the innate talents and wonderful humanity possessed by farang.

[random]

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

of course not, I would blame the person for the error that caused the death, as for the vandals i would blame them for burning the house down,

"Of course not" is i think not a terribly honest answer.

Unless you are not human.

so now you are saying I am a liar and inhuman?

I thought personal abuse was banned on the forum, you ask a question, I give you an honest answer and you accuse me of being a liar and inhuman, amazing.

[random]

Suppose that vandals burnt down your house and in the process of you rebuilding it, there was an accident that killed your nearest and dearest. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't lay any of the blame for the tragedy at the feet of the vandals?

of course not, I would blame the person for the error that caused the death, as for the vandals i would blame them for burning the house down,

"Of course not" is i think not a terribly honest answer.

Unless you are not human.

An honest answer would be that he would blame anyone that came within shouting distance. But that doesn't make it their fault.

The honest answer is the answer I gave, but the fact is here we are not discussing my house, or indeed anyone's house on this forum, we are discussing a shopping centre so there is really no correlation between the 2, I find it hard to get upset about a shopping center, my house on the other hand would be different, that said however i would put the blame where the blame was due, as to put it elsewhere would allow the real culprit to walk away without punishment.

[ianbaggie]

I Certainly hope the dodgy construction company and the RED Shirt criminals can be made accountable for these unfortunate alas additional victims.

What did the red shirts have to do with it?

Do you really need it spelled out to you? If those terrorists hadnt burnt it down to throw their toys out of the pram because they couldnt have Takky back - it wouldnt have NEEDED scaffolding!!

[whybother]

Or someone took out random bolts to sell them. The Thais will often steal 3 bolts out of a 4 bolt light post, leaving 1 holding the light post up.

appalling... but understandable. consider the distribution of wealth in this country... if I were poor I too would steal from the rich where i can. only normal.

so, in that line if logic, do not blame the red shirts whose fault it is that the building is under construction but the yellow shirts whose fault it is that there are so many poor.

Yes ... it's ok to steal things and kill people (or cause people to be killed) if you're poor ...

[VictorOne]

I wonder how it collapsed, poor construction of the scaffold or corrosion, my money would be on the first one. I would not go on a building site in this country for love nor money.

Just another case of TIT

[rixalex]

An accident is generally attributed to being an unexpected event. In your example above you bring in the added dimension of personal feelings. Now, the relatives of the dead and injured may blame the redshirts of being responsible for the accident due to their personal feelings, or may not. I don't feel that it is justified for you to blame the redshirts for this accident on their behalf, or is it just for your benefit?

Random said it was pathetic to blame the red shirts. My point was that although it may be unfair, it is to be expected. It is a human reaction to look for what could have happened differently after an accident, that might have prevented it.. and Central World not being torched is one of those things.

Put it another way, if you were the one responsible for burning down the place, how would you be feeling if you met the families of those deceased from this accident? Not even a tiny bit to blame?

[Randee]

As an ex scaff I have never seen a scaffold in Thailand that I would put my name to. The best scaffolders in the world are the Brits. In the UK you need to be trained to a high standard before you can erect a scaffold. An advanced scaffolder can erect a scaffold to any height. it is only when you start to sheet it in that it needs to be designed by an engineer. Scaffolds tend to collapse as a result of the load bearing design of the scaffold being exceeded. The load bearing of the scaffold is the distance between the upright standards and check fittings etc. Scaffolds tend to topple due to the lack of anchors attaching the scaffold to the building. A picture of the scaffold would also tell a lot.

In the UK the person who built and signed off the scaffold is legally responsible for it. it would also have a tag telling people the maximum loading and any other restrictions and inspected regularly and signed off.

Will anybody here be held responsible for the collapse ? I doubt it

RIP the guys who died

British Scaffolders go away to scaffolding college to get excellent training before they get on site. It's a tough course. When they achieve it they are proud, they work bloody hard in all weathers and are professional.

I'm not talking about the cowboy moonlighters - talking about a professional say SGB staff. I've known and worked with a few and they were grafters - Good money though!

People knock all the rules and regulations in the UK etc, including me but there are very good reasons for them. This scaffolding failure in Thailand is a good example of why strict rules and regulations should apply - The bloody roads too but thats another story.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Randee

[thaihome]

I wonder how it collapsed, poor construction of the scaffold or corrosion, my money would be on the first one. I would not go on a building site in this country for love nor money.

That makes two of us, OSHA would have a field day here in this country, probably close almost all construction sites down for unsafe practices.

I have personal knowledge of industrial sites in Thailand that have worked in excess of tens of millions of hours over the past 10 years TH

I hope you didn't study maths as well because just 1 million hours is about 114 years, never mind these tens of millions of hours that you are talking about.

Since you have no idea about safety statistics and metrics perhaps you should refrain from posting on the topic rather then embarrass yourself.

If 1,500 workers on a 6x12 schedule are on a project for 2 years that comes to over 10 million hours worked, correct? If there have been say, 25 projects over the past 10 years (that have personal knowledge of), would agree that tens of millions of hours is accurate measurement?

TH

[ianbaggie]

I Certainly hope the dodgy construction company and the RED Shirt criminals can be made accountable for these unfortunate alas additional victims.

What did the red shirts have to do with it?

Even though they burnt the place down, they can't be held responsible for shoddy construction methods.

Rather than blame red shirts, why not blame the government ? They are responsible for health and safety organisations aren't they ! Abhisit and his monkey have more blood on their hands (as well as cash)

Seems to me you should remove that St Georges cross and put up a Nigerian or Laotian flag with views like that - do you think its trendy to side with terrorists?

[thaifrelst]

As an ex scaff I have never seen a scaffold in Thailand that I would put my name to. The best scaffolders in the world are the Brits. In the UK you need to be trained to a high standard before you can erect a scaffold. An advanced scaffolder can erect a scaffold to any height. it is only when you start to sheet it in that it needs to be designed by an engineer. Scaffolds tend to collapse as a result of the load bearing design of the scaffold being exceeded. The load bearing of the scaffold is the distance between the upright standards and check fittings etc. Scaffolds tend to topple due to the lack of anchors attaching the scaffold to the building. A picture of the scaffold would also tell a lot.

In the UK the person who built and signed off the scaffold is legally responsible for it. it would also have a tag telling people the maximum loading and any other restrictions and inspected regularly and signed off.

Will anybody here be held responsible for the collapse ? I doubt it

RIP the guys who died

Amen to that.

But please dont let it looks thats only brits can build scaffold. Allmost every country will know how to build scaffold if they want to. The problem is that money talks. I have been working on an oilrig in China recently and I can tell you if you have seen the scaffoldwork your hair would turn grey over the night.

And it will be the same with all others safety tasks down here.

But the point is! The yard has all safetypapers in order after western standard, but nobody care to follow them.

I think it will be the same in this matter.

The big question is! How will the journalists follow up this accident? Will it be pictures, interviews, etc?

Nothing will happen in Thailand before the country get journalists and a free press.

[bangon04]

The victims of gross negligence and a half-arsed attitude to safety.

Next job for the scaffolding company - clear up the mess, recycle the best bits, bit if welding repair, and then provide the scaffolding for Thailand's new nuclear reactor construction site.

[ianbaggie]

Or someone took out random bolts to sell them. The Thais will often steal 3 bolts out of a 4 bolt light post, leaving 1 holding the light post up.

appalling... but understandable. consider the distribution of wealth in this country... if I were poor I too would steal from the rich where i can. only normal.

so, in that line if logic, do not blame the red shirts whose fault it is that the building is under construction but the yellow shirts whose fault it is that there are so many poor.

Yes ... it's ok to steal things and kill people (or cause people to be killed) if you're poor ...

WELL DONE..........................LOVENIM ..............a true red shirt perspective there - Isan should be proud of you!! Except hang on a minute - their puppet master is a multi billionaire whos a convicted criminal and an accused terrorist!! GREAT POST!!