Time To Bring Gay Rights In Thailand Out Of The Closet

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Time to bring gay rights in Thailand out of the closet

By The Nation

Widespread ignorance and prejudice has to be acknowledged then tackled with a programme of education

In Bangkok recently, an academic seminar on human rights in Southeast Asia revealed that 70 per cent of transgenders in the region ended up working in the sex trade. In the Philippines, it is extremely difficult for homosexuals to find "normal" jobs, while their counterparts in countries like Malaysia face assault and even rape and get little protection from Shariah law, which actively discriminates against them.

Just how far this issue is from being addressed in a democratic and dignified way was underlined at the seminar when a transgender speaker asked the audience if they knew the proper definition of "transgender". The room full of human rights activists and scholars found it difficult to provide an answer.

Ignorance on the subject is prevalent in Southeast Asia, Thailand included, and transgenders face everyday difficulties and discrimination over issues that span which set of public toilets they are permitted to use, to immigration officers confused by their looks and thus challenging their legal gender status.

Education can play a key role in battling this ignorance and Thailand should review and revise its curriculum in order to fill the gaps regarding this issue. Offices such as the National Human Rights Commission or the Department of Human Rights and Liberty Promotion under the Justice Ministry should take up the task. They could conduct research to come up with recommendations on how to improve school texts and teaching in this regard.

Next, the issue of lack of equality and equal opportunities must be taken seriously; a nationwide campaign to highlight the issue and promote justice for the gay and transgender communities would be a good start. If the Thai Research Fund or NGOs set aside funds for studies into the nature of and reasons for discrimination, the government would be pressured into placing it higher on the national agenda.

Only through awareness of how many are discriminated against, and in what way, will the problems be lessened and solutions devised. Though Thailand may be more open on this issue than most other Asian societies, there is no denying that much more should and can be done.

Gays, lesbians and transgenders are still being mocked as freaks of nature in the mainstream media, and their supposed "abnormality" highlighted. This brings us to the issue of the lack of sensitivity in reporting news relating to gays, lesbians or transgenders. Tabloid newspapers, for example, often jump on the fact that a criminal or murderer happens to be gay, as if his sexual orientation were abnormal and therefore made him prone to abnormal behaviour and crime. Such ignorant sensationalism fuels prejudice against the gay community. In this regard, professional journalists' associations and journalism schools should spend more time and attention addressing the matter to ensure that so-called third- and fourth-genders are not doubly discriminated against in their representation by the mass media.

There is no denying that openly gay public figures have made important contributions working in the higher echelons of Thai society. Meanwhile, however, their poorer counterparts continue to struggle through an obstacle course of discrimination in their daily lives. This is a reminder that poverty, or more specifically the lack of education it brings, creates an environment in which age-old gender stereotypes and prejudices against gay, lesbians and transgenders are less likely to be challenged. In the end, then, this issue cannot be fully addressed without considering related factors of wider social injustice and the income gap.

By forging a clear conviction and commitment, Thailand could make visible progress on this issue in the next few years rather than decades.

Commitment, however, seems in short supply among politicians. It is therefore up to those of us who care about a free and fair society to ring the alarm bell and call attention to the everyday prejudice that blights the lives of gay and transgender individuals.

-- The Nation 2010-10-30

[jcbangkok]

I guess EVERYTHING needs improving but I really have not run across much prejudice against gays in Thailand. I see openly gay transgender folks working at many places. This is something not that common in the US. I am also told these guys (and former guys) make great sales people when it comes to things related to make-up and such. Again, it would be something that would cause much uneasiness with many shoppers in the US. My point is not that the US is a measuring stick but that this is certainly an area where Thailand has more acceptance and understanding.

As for many gays and transgener folks being in the sex trade ... it is a way to make a better living than most jobs in Thailand, This is an issue of economics and education and not sexuality. Secondly, I would venture to guess that a good number of so-called gays in the sex trade are not even gay but simply trying to make a buck. Many of the gay porn starts in the US are actually straight but it pays better and their is more work. Chances are if you see somebody openly displaying their "gayness" it is because they are advertising (often for work). Being gay shouldn't mean you are a walking homo advertisement.

The fact of the matter (in my opinion) is that when going to a retail outlet, it should be improper for the clerk to openly show any sexual preference .. regardless of country. It is just bad manners and makes many customers uncomfortable. I am in a relationship and regardless if it is a women or man, I don't need to deal with their sexuality when making a purchase ... well, at least outside Soi Cowboy.

Bottom line is I find it odd the things The Nation chooses to focus on when with so many more important issues that can be tackled and should be brought to light. Being poor and lacking opportunity is certainly not a problem relegated the gays in Thailand.

On a side note ... has anybody else noticed that when Thai's talk about gays they are only talking about men? Women gays are not called gay but Lesbians.

[sjjmmi]

Ladyboy

[Jingthing]

There is clearly severe discrimination faced by Thai sexual minorities. However, one thing the Nation fails to mention is that Thai sexual minorities THEMSELVES must face some of the blame for the lack of national progress on this issue. Thai sexual minorities should not wait timidly to be gifted equal rights and treatment under Thai law (for example, equal marriage and immigration rights). Rather, they need to advocate for themselves and work at it. If they are mocked and viciously disrespected in Thai entertainment and news media, and they are, is a Nation editorial going to change that? I think not. Thai sexual minorities if they hope to make real progress need to look to the west for examples of long term strategies to organize politically that over time can and do create social change and progress for sexual minorities. This especially goes for the members of the Thai elite that happen to be gay men. It takes great courage for some of them to openly get involved in this movement, but sadly, most have no such courage. Imagine, for example, the historic black power movement in America, if black people didn't get involved in making it happen. Of course, that wouldn't have gone anywhere.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Jingthing

[jcbangkok]

There is clearly severe discrimination faced by Thai sexual minorities. However, one thing the Nation fails to mention is that Thai sexual minorities THEMSELVES must face some of the blame for the lack of national progress on this issue. Thai sexual minorities should not wait timidly to be gifted equal rights and treatment under Thai law (for example, equal marriage and immigration rights). Rather, they need to advocate for themselves and work at it. If they are mocked and viciously disrespected in Thai entertainment and news media, and they are, is a Nation editorial going to change that? I think not. Thai sexual minorities if they hope to make real progress need to look to the west for examples of long term strategies to organize politically that over time can and do create social change and progress for sexual minorities.

Jingthing, I am not saying things don't need improving but what country do you hail from? I really believe homosexuals in Thailand as well as transgender folks have much more equal opportunity as straights in Thailand than many other places. I don't believe you will find many ladyboys working as a salesperson at the local mall in most western countries. This is the same for gays who openly display their sexuality. Certainly in the US you will not find many outwardly gay acting people being hired by many companies outside very liberal areas.

As for the media making fun ... I don't see it that often but honestly don't watch that much Thai TV. Even though the USA has tried hard to go politically correct, it is still OK to do satire on people who act openly gay UNLESS you infer that all gays act this way. Again, being gay doesn't mean you need to project your gayness to every person you run across.

Until the medical industry can truly make a man into a women (or vice versa) and we cannot so easily tell a person has gone through a transformation there will always be a large portion of folks who feel uncomfortable dealing in a business sense with these folks. Bottom line is a radical thing to do that most of us cannot relate to.

Do you know there a number of people who have surgeries to make themselves have cat or dog features because they feel they relate more to these animals?

Should a business owner be forced to hire the person in this photo as salesperson when clearly they will make many potential customers uncomfortable and create an image of that company the company doesn't wish to have?

It is in a way sad we choose to make jokes about people who are different but many of these jokes are funny and why they are told ... these people choose to advertise they are different.

To be clear, I fully support people being gay and actually believe it is an evolutionary path to control population but I am also realistic in knowing that advertising your differences from mainstream society is generally going to decrease your opportunities. The same would also be true for somebody who tattoos the words "I hate gays" on their forehead. In fact, they would be discriminated against more and would be doing little different than those who are gay and want everyone to know when it is simply not relevant in terms of the business world or even walking down the street.

Edited October 30, 2010 by jcbangkok

[chantorn]

Does that includes Mark & Maew?

[brahmburgers]

I can define transgender, though even people that can't perfectly define that newfangled word, are entitled to an opinion on the subject. Talk of completely liberal rights for transgenders is too sweeping of a statement. Sure, there should be basic rights for everyone. But it's the specifics that are sticky, because transgenders encompass a wide variety of ways in which people manifest. Example, there's a difference between a woman clerical worker who likes to wear cowboy boots and secretly wishes she were a man - to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie. One concern for calls for equality (as in the OP) are the possibility of using transgenderness as a smokescreen for weird or harmful behavior towards others.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

[tomyummer]

Frankly, I think farangs are discriminated against more than the gay population in Thailand.

I personally think that Thailand is the most open and accepting country for the gay/transgender population. I've never heard of a hate crime in Thailand related to gays.

[jcbangkok]

I can define transgender, though even people that can't perfectly define that newfangled word, are entitled to an opinion on the subject. Talk of completely liberal rights for transgenders is too sweeping of a statement. Sure, there should be basic rights for everyone. But it's the specifics that are sticky, because transgenders encompass a wide variety of ways in which people manifest. Example, there's a difference between a woman clerical worker who likes to wear cowboy boots and secretly wishes she were a man - to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie. One concern for calls for equality (as in the OP) are the possibility of using transgenderness as a smokescreen for weird or harmful behavior towards others.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

You are absolutely right. However, my use of the word (as well as I believe the OP's) was to be defined as being the politically correct way of referring to ladyboys. But again, you are right in terms of the actual definition. A semi-new buzz word, at least in the USA, is "metro-sexual". This refers to guys who not long ago you would assume were gay because of things such as their dress, mannerisms or haircut and even possibly wearing a touch of make-up. To me, this is nothing more than changing fashions and the ability for young men to be more concerned with their appearances. As well as many girls finding it attractive (at least initially) to see a man as concerned with their looks as much as they are. In a way it is no different than men growing their hair long back in the 60s and 70s.

[elshaheen]

Thai gay, lesbian and transgender I don't have a problem with. When I go into a business, they add a charm to their work. They go the extra mile.

[jayjay0]

Frankly, I think farangs are discriminated against more than the gay population in Thailand.

I personally think that Thailand is the most open and accepting country for the gay/transgender population. I've never heard of a hate crime in Thailand related to gays.

You hit the nail right on the head

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

If the nation cared about equity they would have been talking about woman's rites. Perhaps being in the closet can get a person to see problems that are not there or make small one into mountains.

[jcbangkok]

Frankly, I think farangs are discriminated against more than the gay population in Thailand.

I personally think that Thailand is the most open and accepting country for the gay/transgender population. I've never heard of a hate crime in Thailand related to gays.

You hit the nail right on the head

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

If the nation cared about equity they would have been talking about woman's rites. Perhaps being in the closet can get a person to see problems that are not there or make small one into mountains.

Speaking politically correct has not yet hit Thailand. I could not imagine the reaction if in other countries, especially in places of business, the staff continually referred to a customer as "the foreigner" Yet, it is so common to here Thai's say things like "the farang wants a coke"

I'm also not aware of many countries where visitors from other countries need to pay more for services or literally discourage the ability to invest in the country.

And are specifically targeted by authorities for simple violations such as throwing a cigarette on the ground.

[rkidlad]

Fascinating creatures them ladyboys. I'm not attracted to them. It's just confusing. Is it a lady - is it a man?

[suranya63]

we love the gay crowd

[animatic]

In animal cultures with finite natural resources, incidents of homosexuality in animals will increase, in direct proportion to over use or over feeding on resources. This has the net effect of, for a time, lowering the load on the environment, by reducing numbers of births, and thus mouths to feed.

In the animal kingdom this is not considered a bad thing, just how nature chose to work to redress an imbalance. In some species genders will spontaneously change to accommodate an environmental situation. Stresses can be caused by the lack of, or dieing off, of natural predators and so the species takes another tack to solve the over crowding.

Males become females and visa versa. In these species control of procreation is the driving force. But most are not sentient enough to see this as a deviation, it is just what it is. Only when man is able to statistically and 'morally' pass judgments on the statistics does this 'defect' argument come up. Animals don't care.

So no reason to think this affect is not also in play with the human organism and it's environment. In crowded urban environments, more people cheek to jowl, there is a much greater visible incidence of homosexuality. 2 reasons for this visibility, are likely;

a ) the same territorial overload read instinctively by the human organism.

And as JC noted, this is a physiological reaction to stresses caused by over crowding.

b ) the greater numbers in proximity to each other creates greater visible mating behavior, regardless of the ability to create progeny.

The inability to procreate together is not something that prevents the mating instinct to happen, it just prevents children from happening. There is nothing wrong with the path towards procreation as a normal function set. But there are times that 'organisms in societies' don't have enough resources and so nature does another method for a longer term correction, for the good of the species.

But with humans the emotional component of procreation has skewed the numbers placed in an environment, and cultural controls don't always do an adequate job, so it would appear natural stresses can cause a physiological devoloution to continue the course of evolution in a given environment.

But the cultural component of maintaining tribal numbers for defense and philosophical control has never modulated in parallel with the autonomic physiological group responses. This causes the 'hate gays' component in society.

It is a learned response from a culture and not a nature created response.

The learned mechanism that society uses to keep tribes together, is diametrically opposed to this physiological modulation from environmental factors.

Edited October 30, 2010 by animatic

[NikhilBkk]

<deleted>! OH PLEEZE! Can these Thai academics and most straights out there first stop lumping gays and transgenders under the same categories!Almost 95% of gay men hate transgenders or being evenly identified with them in any way.

For most people: If you are a male and you like females, then you are heterosexual. If you are a male and you like males or a female who likes females, then you are gay. I cannot figure out why a normal guy would go for something like a trangender? Though it might come as a surprise to most people about my religious views though I am gay, I think that its against God's will to play around with your body and start changing the gender you are born with.

I used to feel pity for transgenders before and was doing some volunteer work for a few groups, both in the region and locally years ago, but I gave up after realising that almost 99% were misfits in almost everyway. In thailand, most of these transgenders like and enjoy their devious livehoods and are beyond salvation. I think that NGOs should be spending their efforts, resources and money helping the more deprived people like orphans, the physically sick, the aged, people with HIV, etc instead of these particular group. In terms of priority, should be wasting our time concentrating on people who have an issue wit the physical sexuality or a normal person who is going through sickness, poverty, issues of being abandoned, natural disasiers, etc?

I do apologise in advance if my personal comments do upset anyone.

[termad]

There is clearly severe discrimination faced by Thai sexual minorities. However, one thing the Nation fails to mention is that Thai sexual minorities THEMSELVES must face some of the blame for the lack of national progress on this issue. Thai sexual minorities should not wait timidly to be gifted equal rights and treatment under Thai law (for example, equal marriage and immigration rights). Rather, they need to advocate for themselves and work at it. If they are mocked and viciously disrespected in Thai entertainment and news media, and they are, is a Nation editorial going to change that? I think not. Thai sexual minorities if they hope to make real progress need to look to the west for examples of long term strategies to organize politically that over time can and do create social change and progress for sexual minorities. This especially goes for the members of the Thai elite that happen to be gay men. It takes great courage for some of them to openly get involved in this movement, but sadly, most have no such courage. Imagine, for example, the historic black power movement in America, if black people didn't get involved in making it happen. Of course, that wouldn't have gone anywhere.

I not quite sure in Thailand who are the sexual minorities. There was a report in the Bangkok Post (I think about two years or so ago) that stated barely 50% of the Thai adult population is 100% hetorosexual. They listed all the types; homosexual, lesbian, cross dressers/transvestites lady boys, transgender, bi-sexual and and a few more that I'd never heard of. Having said that I don't think that sexual minorities in Thailand are discriminated against to the extent that they are in the West. In fact I don't think that most Thais are bothered what sexual orientation a person has.

For instance I doubt if in any other country you would see so many transvestites, lady boys etc on prime time television programmes - including childrens programmes. There would certainly be a flood of complaints if that happened in U.K. and given that U.K. is a different type of society I think that I would side with the complainers.

[Jingthing]

If it's so good for Thai gays, please explain the multiple reports on this very board about pervasive violent BULLYING of Thai gay boys in Thai schools? You can't because you have no idea of the difficult social realities for Thai gay people.

Also, these reports of ladyboys being visible in totally stereotypical segregated jobs in Thailand as evidence of no problems here are ridiculous and insulting.

I do think many of the straight people here are understandably confused about these categories. Transgendered people are certainly not the same thing as gay men, but for the purposes of the political struggles for equality for sexual minorities, they have often been all grouped together, as they were in the editorial.

There is a false myth about that Thailand is a paradise for Thai sexual minorities. It most certainly is nothing of the kind.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Jingthing

[dinooz]

100% agreed,I always figured gay men were attracted to the masculine form, not feminine.

[moetownblues]

Fascinating creatures them ladyboys. I'm not attracted to them. It's just confusing. Is it a lady - is it a man?

Well sometimes you would never know I bit of a lucky dip. I am not attracted to them either I love real women. I have nothing against them as they have caused me no concern. Each unto thier own I guess.

[Jingthing]

I don't think the intent of this thread is whether you are sexually attracted to ladyboys or not, though that does seem to be a rich vein of heterosexual fascination. Perhaps take that to the bar scene boards?

[jayjay0]

If it's so good for Thai gays, please explain the multiple reports on this very board about pervasive violent BULLYING of Thai gay boys in Thai schools? You can't because you have no idea of the difficult social realities for Thai gay people.

Also, these reports of ladyboys being visible in totally stereotypical segregated jobs in Thailand as evidence of no problems here are ridiculous and insulting.

I do think many of the straight people here are understandably confused about these categories. Transgendered people are certainly not the same thing as gay men, but for the purposes of the political struggles for equality for sexual minorities, they have often been all grouped together, as they were in the editorial.

There is a false myth about that Thailand is a paradise for Thai sexual minorities. It most certainly is nothing of the kind.

They are on this thread because that is what it is about. Threads about illegal immigrants will have multiple posts of people taking advantage of them. I my self have a North American back ground and I find Thailand to be very open. Yes there is some prejudice against gays but I believe a lot of that is in the expat community. Notice they don't flaunt it on there Television channels where as the Thais have no problem with it.

[Jingthing]

100% agreed,I always figured gay men were attracted to the masculine form, not feminine.

Exactly. However, gay men, lesbians, and trans people do all share being members of sexual minority groups. Similarly, in Thailand, Thai Catholics and Thai Muslims share being members of religious minority groups, yet other than that, how much do they really have in common with each other? (Not much.)

[OzMick]

I'm sorry gents, but I cannot accept that ladyboys and their consorts are part of the heterosexual scene. And I do have something against them personally, though sexually I find them repugnant; they are the source of a much larger percentage of the local crime than their percentage of the population. No, I don't have statistics to back that up, but I have 4 friends robbed in hugger/mugger situations, which is out of all proportion to other crimes.

I have said this before and I will repeat it - putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality, and putting your boyfriend in a dress is still homosexuality, whether he still has a penis or not, and no matter what he thinks he really is. Homosexuals apparently wish to disown them as well, which brings us to the concept of bisexuality. IMO by interacting with a man who resembles a woman, the bisexual man can pretend that he is still "straight" until he no longer needs the pretence. Bisexuality is much more common and accepted than "pure" homosexuality in many cultures.

[Jingthing]

It doesn't matter at all in the context of minority civil rights struggles how you decide to categorize sex with ladyboys.

[OzMick]

It doesn't matter at all in the context of minority civil rights struggles how you decide to categorize sex with ladyboys.

Agreed. But is their minority civil rights a matter of concern in this country? They seem to be much more accepted here than in most other countries. Re your example of the bullying of homosexual schoolboys, could this be because they are effeminate/weak? Bullys always seem to go for the easy target. That's why animal rights activists throw paint over women in fur coats and not hel_l's angels in leather.

[Jingthing]

It doesn't matter at all in the context of minority civil rights struggles how you decide to categorize sex with ladyboys.

Agreed. But is their minority civil rights a matter of concern in this country? They seem to be much more accepted here than in most other countries. Re your example of the bullying of homosexual schoolboys, could this be because they are effeminate/weak? Bullys always seem to go for the easy target. That's why animal rights activists throw paint over women in fur coats and not hel_l's angels in leather.

Yes, minority civil rights are a concern in this country. What an absurd question.

[moetownblues]

I don't think the intent of this thread is whether you are sexually attracted to ladyboys or not, though that does seem to be a rich vein of heterosexual fascination. Perhaps take that to the bar scene boards?

I will put it another way. I swim in a different pool to them and that is my choice the same as they make thier lifestyle choice, Yes they may be a sense of facination by hetrosexuals or maybe more so curiosity as to why they are what they are. I don't mean that in a derogatory way. We are all living breathing human beings and as such we should all be afforded the same rights in life. Yes it is time to bring it out of the closet I agree.

[gemini81]

It doesn't matter at all in the context of minority civil rights struggles how you decide to categorize sex with ladyboys.

Agreed. But is their minority civil rights a matter of concern in this country? They seem to be much more accepted here than in most other countries. Re your example of the bullying of homosexual schoolboys, could this be because they are effeminate/weak? Bullys always seem to go for the easy target. That's why animal rights activists throw paint over women in fur coats and not hel_l's angels in leather.

Yes, minority civil rights are a concern in this country. What an absurd question.

Seems gays in Thailand are full fledged flamin' and anything but in the closet.

Most I've known who like the same sex or are bendin' gender have really good jobs too! Some others on here mentioned that. Don't see too many of them or the trannies in their samlor salvaging recyclables, do you?

Maybe you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

This is one well known place where foreigners straight or otherwise have a lot of freedom to roam their playground!

[phosphorescent]

I agree that there is a big difference between trannies and fairies but to suggest that they are in the closet in Thailand is ridiculous. If a closet does exist over here, it’s made of glass and surrounded by loudspeakers! My brister in law is a good example.