Bangkok At Night Turns Violent Inferno Now

[baht&sold]

The fact that this was not reported in the Thai media suggests to me that Thailand is more interested in maintaining the illusion that it is untouched by the worlds problems and if there is any problems they are caused by wayward farangs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like the unfortunate fellow from Bhutan, actually read it in yesterday's newspaper....

[mamypocopants]

The fact that this was not reported in the Thai media suggests to me that Thailand is more interested in maintaining the illusion that it is untouched by the worlds problems and if there is any problems they are caused by wayward farangs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like the unfortunate fellow from Bhutan, actually read it in yesterday's newspaper....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A week after it happened, not bad....that's pretty speedy reporting...

[sadman]

Indeed, this crap is supported by you deadsh*t farangs

Ah-ha.

&lt;deleted&gt; you! you act so high and mighty, you make me so angry, maybe I'll cast some aspersions about your characters too, are you here to &lt;deleted&gt; kiddies?

Ah, a reasoned, cogent argument, utilising nothing but objective facts.

I was walking home alone the same night this above incident occured and I was attacked from behind with a blow from some object to the left side of my head then had a bottle smashed in my face by someone I had not seen.

Funny, that, with such a reasonable attitude. So, no chance that anything prior went on, then?

[camerata]

Speaking of violence... this evening around 6pm I was walking past the Swan Hotel on Sukhumvit about 10 paces behind what looked like a Thai street-wacko (usually dark-skinned, dirty, dark clothes, long hair, mumbling, but this guy looked pretty vigorous and had short hair). A short, mild-looking farang guy was coming the opposite way. As they passed, the Thai guy swivelled round and kicked him hard in the butt, then stopped in a "what-are-you-going-to-do-about-it?" stance with a maniacal grin on his face. He had no teeth. The farang guy walked on with a look of utter contempt on his face.

I've seen a street-wacko kick a Thai woman at a bus stop before and another doing kung-&lt;deleted&gt; kicks on his own, but never anything like this. Weird. Lots of people around, too.

[Neeranam]

I find that Thailand in general is becoming more dangerous.

Thai people are murdered every day and they never even make the back pages.

About 3 km from my house there was a bank raid last week. I saw the helicopters(4 of them) going over my house trying to catch the guys.

2 days ago, a guy known to my wife, who sells the Thai traditional ice-cream from his motorbike come freezer, was stopped on the main road near my house. He was killed for not giving the muggers 300 baht!

This stuff doesn't even reach the back pages of the local rag! Well the bank robbery did, but not the ice cream murders.

I think that a lot of farang, like the Scots Mattnich was on about, are very lucky that the Thais are so very tolerant. In fact I am a Scot who is very grateful that they were so very tolerant at some of my drunken behavior.

Edited August 5, 2005 by Neeranam

[mamypocopants]

Indeed, this crap is supported by you deadsh*t farangs

Ah-ha.

&lt;deleted&gt; you! you act so high and mighty, you make me so angry, maybe I'll cast some aspersions about your characters too, are you here to &lt;deleted&gt; kiddies?

Ah, a reasoned, cogent argument, utilising nothing but objective facts.

I was walking home alone the same night this above incident occured and I was attacked from behind with a blow from some object to the left side of my head then had a bottle smashed in my face by someone I had not seen.

Funny, that, with such a reasonable attitude. So, no chance that anything prior went on, then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Sadman for sounding a little pissed off and emotional, but my guess is that you would be too if you had copped what I did, and totally unprovoked. Then, my buddy, who I live next door to and work with, tells me about his friend from Bangkok uni who went out on the same weekend and his friend winds up dead! &lt;deleted&gt; am I meant to feel? empathy with my attackers and for the ones who killed an innocent young man? Applaud the apathy of the constabulary here in such events?

Edited August 5, 2005 by mamypocopants

[OxfordWill]

Sounds terrible but I've been reading these reports here on TV and many other places for years yet even though I have often walked everywhere, at night, on my own, getting completely lost, from the age of 17 until now all over bangkok (once even hopping from stilt to stilt along the river, disturbing more than one group of thais gambling and drinking illegally by the river side) I have never seen or heard anything as bad as any of these reports.

But, I do think KSR is a world unto itself and if you go there, you have to actively behave 'better' than the other farangs around you to be sure to avoid any possible trouble. I suppose there is an irony in the fact that the potentially most danegrous part of BKK is also the part that most young, naive farangs first visit. I have seen so many examples of farangs mistreating the Thais who work on KSR, however, that I often feel sick thinking about it. Several friends who have worked as bar staff or waiting staff in some of those establishments have some sickening stories to tell about the attitudes of the farang customers. It is no wonder that this gets to the one or two who are more likely to become violent as a response. However, this is KSR and not BKK as a whole.

[meadish_sweetball]

Even KSR is usually fine if you just keep your wits about you. Back in the mid-nineties I used to hang out there a lot, and while I saw quite a few obnoxious deadbeat farang get kicked about, I didn't see any mindless violence from the Thai waiters - which is very admirable considering the attitude of some idiots there.

Suk has its fair share of complete knobs as well, especially around Nana and Cowboy.

I have often wondered how Thais keep so composed in the presence of foreigners, when my experience of people back home is just the opposite.

Last year in my home town, three filipino sailors went to the pub, and the queue a guy was totally taking the piss, trying to speak some kind of 'mock Thai' language which of course sounded nothing like Thai, and certainly nothing like Tagalog either, so I guess (hope) the Filipinos didn't notice the idiot. The doorman did let them in, but instead of the smile you will generally get as a farang going into a Thai pub, he clearly showed his dislike. To guys who dressed normally, weren't that drunk and behaved examplary in every conceivable way except for not being able to speak Swedish. Had these Filipinos tried to score with the girls inside I can only imagine the reaction from these sad Yobs.

Try to twist the perspective over a little to see how well most people treat you here as a farang, as opposed to the attitude you meet in many European countries as a non-white foreigner.

[Indo-Siam]

I want to point out that this thread is based ona totally false premise, right from the subtitle of the thread: "countless attacks on foreigners..."

There have not been "countless attacks" - unless you are a clinical imbecile, and your idea of "countless" is a number that approaches the number of fingers on your two hands.

What is the real number - for all of 2005 thus far - 6? 8? 14? 22? Twenty two is 22 - it is not a "countless number." This is a city of - 6 million registered inhabitants, and maybe another 4-5 million transients. Try comparing violent crime here to such crime in Rio de Janeiro - or Manila.

And - several of the incidents referred to had nothing whatsoever to do with Bangkok - they were just brought in to illegitimately bolster a weak argument.

There is no doubt in my mind that the number of foreign suicides in Thailand exceeds the number of vicious beatings that foreigners receive here - and I am not talking about the "both hands tied behind his back, and plastic bag over his head" suicides.

So - until farangs stop killing themselves, the "background noise" of violence initiated by Thais against foreigners should not be blown out of proportion. I have lived and walked around lower Sukhumvit daily for over five years. I cannot speak for anywhere else, but there has been ABSOLUTELY no noticeable baseline increase in violent activity since April 2000, between Sukhumvit Soi 1 and Soi 41.

With that said, I do think that there HAS been an increase in burglaries, and breaking and entering - and I attribute this to a very small population of bad apples among the large number of construction workers working for K-Tech and Rita, and living in shanty towns throughout the area. This is unfortunate, but probably goes long with any large population of migrant workers injected into relatively affluent surroundings. Maybe the really remarkable thing is that the number of incidents - relative to the population of contruction workers - has been so very low.

There has NOT been a recent pattern of "countless" attcks on foreigners in Bangkok. There have been a small handful. It is the work of a troll (or a mathematically challenged moron) to use tremendous exaggeration to try to enflame an audience with a totally false premise.

Facts: There are at least two bars in KSR area - frequented by back-packers, and evidently tired of being stiffed by the same - that have evidently decided to develop a reputation as being places that bums should not go, eat and drink, and then claim to be unable to pay. They appear to have hired some rather sadistic thugs as their "security" staff. Harsh strategy - but probably effective. 'Want to avoid trouble? Then don't go looking for it at these bars.

There is also a known problem with young street toughs on motorcycles, occasionally "terrorizing" stretches of Sukhumvit and Ratachadapisek roads, particularly in the early morning hours. There is no clear pattern of them specifically picking out westerners to harrass - or attack - but westerners appear to not be necessarily excluded.

Also:

There have traditionally been violent rivalries between various vocational schools in the greater Bangkok area - and each year, several of these rivalries involve unprovoked killings of students from one school, by thugs from another school - often in commuter situations. Bad - but, this is not something "new", or growing. Just baseline hooliganism.

Thai universities - including some of the best - have fraterntities, many with initiation rights. Every year, a few upperclassmen get carried away with the initiations, and a couple of innocent Thai freshman die as a result. This is sad. But - the same thing happens in the US (my home country), and a lot of other countries.

Although I've never done it, I understand that if you go down to Patpong, and make a night of visiting nothing but upstairs show bars, the chances are pretty good that more than one of them is going to present you with a padded bill. If you loudly proclaim that they are crooks, and you are not going to pay your bill, I understand it is very likely that you will be severely beaten on the spot. This is every night - all the time. But - you have to go out looking for this type of trouble.

I have not observed any of the above trends - not even one - reflecting a significant increase in frequency or severity - over the past five years. A foreigner who goes out to have a good time here, behaves himself, and avoids habitually wandering around more deserted sections of Bangkok between 1:30 and 5:00 am probably has little to be worried about.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[jomama]

Just read the Phuketgazette online this (Sat.) morning. Three killed and one seriously wounded in separate incidents (all Thai).

The one that got my attention was two drunken policemen in a bar. One fell off his chair and as the waitress helped him up, he fondled her. She complained, and another off-duty policeman who was there then helped the manager escort these guys out, whereupon the one who fell off the chair pulled out a gun and shot his own "friend" under the chin, killing him. He then shot the other policeman, wounding him.

Duh???

As I've said before, there is loads of violence in Thailand, but not usually against farangs, though I think we're less "exempt" than we used to be. But what is worrying is these guys running around drunk and armed. In the past year (off the top of my head), policemen have:

* Killed two British tourists in Kanchanaburi. He was probably drunk.

* Killed three motorists in Fang then turned the gun on himself following a "road rage" type incident.

* Killed his friend in Phuket and wounded another police officer while drunk.

* Killed his boss as a Bangkok police station.

All gunshots.

If you see these guys in a bar or restaurant in their t-shirts (they "take off" their uniforms -- just their shirts) while drinking...

RUN!

[Tarragona]

Good post, Steve.

[Neeranam]

Indo Siam, I agree with all you say. I, too stayed on lower Sukhumvit for a few years. Outside Bangkok is much more dangerous.

If you see these guys in a bar or restaurant in their t-shirts (they "take off" their uniforms -- just their shirts) while drinking...

RUN!

On the whole, good advice, but not always nessessary. Some of them are OK.

When they actually get pissed, then it is usually best to get away, which isn't always easy. Onetime I had to stay and finish a bottle of Johnny Black, and then what a hassle getting away from them.

[Greer]

Quote "Like having our own drinking areas where locals can not get in..."

I don't really think this is fair comment at all - I have never, in 13 years of living in Thailand, seen any bar where locals could not enter (excluding the Japanese Only bars of course).

As the bars are owned, if not run, by Thais, I think it would be unlikely that locals who wanted to enter would be barred from doing so - if you know of a place that does this, I would interested to know - but not because I would want to go there; simply because I would be extremely surprised to know one existed.

Steve's post above is spot on - the OP is trolling for responses by sub-titling the post "Countless Attacks", and this is totally wrong!

Bangkok is a big city, but nowhere near as dangerous as many places in the "advanced, first world". I feel absolutely safe in Bangkok, and MUCH safer than London, Sydney, Dubai, LA....etc....

Edited August 6, 2005 by Greer

[Butterfly]

The UPSTAIRS Patpong bars are dreadful. DO NOT EVER GO THERE !!! NO MATTER WHAT.

After going to Patpong for 5 years (never had a problem), I decided once to try the upstair bar for a change. Oh well. Terrible girls and of course the usual 300 Baht beer every 1/2 hour. When I got the bill, I didn't say anything, I just paid and left immediately because I have heard those crazy stories about farang being beat up in the show bars for not paying the bills. I was happy to leave and learn to never return to those bars. The downstair bars are fine. The best 300 baht I ever spent.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Butterfly

[OldAsiaHand]

What the (coherent) posters are saying here is that Bangkok is more dangerous for foreigners now than it was a few years ago. For my part, as a long-time resident, I don't see any doubt that's true.

On the whole, Thais have never liked us much, but they've generally been careful in their contacts with us. Somehow taking on a foreigner, whether verbally or physically, always seemed a bit too risky. Too much unknown and unknowable stuff there.

In this new-era, local-pride, we-Thais-can-give-the-finger-to-anyone age, however, foreigners have been pretty much stripped of our historical immunity from harassment. There's even a degree of status to be obtained from your fellow Thais these days when you go around pissing on foreigners, literally or figuratively. In a couple of short years, we foreigners have both lost our historical exemption and become real targets.

And if you don't know that, either you don't live here or you don't understand what's really going on around you.

[jomama]

On the whole, Thais have ... generally been careful in their contacts with us. Somehow taking on a foreigner, whether verbally or physically, always seemed a bit too risky. Too much unknown and unknowable stuff there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely. They don't know where we fit on the prestige-connections ladder so best to steer clear -- we may know some of the "right" people who might cause trouble later. And to put a nicer face on it, many people are willing to give us a break because they realize many farang don't know the score, so any mistakes we make might be accidental and therefore somewhat exempt.

Buy it is changing. In today's "globalized" society some of the farang mystique is gone, and that's probably good. People should not come over here, act like d*cks on a continual basis, and not be held accountable.

But the accountability can be extreme. I will again repeat that Thailand IS a violent society underneath the placid surface. One can do the research (I will later), but I remember reading that violent deaths (gunshot, etc.) rank very high on causes of death in certain male age groups. The traffic death rate is the highest in the world (by population), and that doesn't come about by serene drivers being nice to each other. Once the restraints of class, etc., are off (through the anonymity of driving behind the wheel and having roughly equal power to the next guy), the gloves come off big time. Also, this is a heavy drinking society; alcoholism is also a leading cause of death.

Then there are the police (who might be drunk), and often nowhere to be found when the sh*t hits the fan...

But most of this will not impact those of us who go about our business in the daytime and are selective (and under control) about what we do at night.

[jomama]

I don't have time to do better research right now, but the stats I could find quickly say:

Accidents, poisonings, and violence are main causes of death among young adults in Thailand while heart diseases, malignant neoplasms, tuberculosis, and accidents, poisonings and violence are leading causes of death among middle-aged adults (Porapakkham 1986; Sethapongkul 1992).

[Boo]

Personally I don't like guns much, but my driver who is from Suratthani tells me thay are necessary.

As an ex samui expat, I would say your driver is a wise man

[The Skipper]

Personally I don't like guns much, but my driver who is from Suratthani tells me thay are necessary.

As an ex samui expat, I would say your driver is a wise man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A golf pro friend of mine once told me guns are pretty much standard equipment in a Thai golf bag these days.

[Boo]

I know a guy in samui who will kill anyone for 10k baht Life certainly can be cheap. That said, I only felt any kind of threat in Thailand once in 7 years & that was this year on a return trip to samui after a years absence. Hubby had stayed at the resort & I had gone out with a girlfreind & was driving my bike back home at about 12.30am, I stopped at the local 7-11 & a gang of young thai guys, drunk, (stoned?) were sitting opposite haggling the farang riders going past. I had never seen that kind of thing from thais before in Samui or anywhere else for that matter but then I tended to stay in areas I knew & had no reason to get into any kind of trouble & this was a different part of the island to where I had lived before, so maybe they were a well known local gang of lads????

[Nordlys]

Personally I don't like guns much, but my driver who is from Suratthani tells me thay are necessary.

As an ex samui expat, I would say your driver is a wise man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A golf pro friend of mine once told me guns are pretty much standard equipment in a Thai golf bag these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does hand gun really provide self protection in situations like some of you have described? I'm pretty shaken up after reading all these stories (Ratchada intersection lynching death, KSR brawl, etc) and comtemplating getting a gun. I don't frequent myself at entertainment venues at all, hardly ever go out at night except for movies and dinners, get around in my own car at 80% of the time and live in a condo where an outsider can not walk into the premises without being questioend and exchanging an ID for a visitor pass at the gate. Yet there was a bulglar in our condo last month and a Japanese couple had their cell phone, cash and a laptop stolen from their unit at 4AM in the morning while they were in sleep. It came as a big shock to all of us owner/tenants as we had high confidence for our security here for being more strictly and heavily guarded than average condos.

I wish I never have to own a gun, yet I can't think of putting myself in a situation like a friend of Y who was helpless and watched his friend get senselessly killed on the street. Will guns actually save lives or will it make situations worse? I do have a Thai ID BTW so I guess that means I can own a gun legally.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Nordlys

[leftcross]

BUY MORE LOCKS, BE FEARFUL, TRUST NO-ONE, IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME

jeez, what's the matter with you people? stop blowing it all out of proportion.

a guy - thai or farang - who doesnt pay his bill deserves a kicking in a country where people are on the poverty line.

[WhiteShiva]

On the whole, Thais have never liked us much, but they've generally been careful in their contacts with us.

There's even a degree of status to be obtained from your fellow Thais these days when you go around pissing on foreigners, literally or figuratively.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I can say is that I must be mixing around in nicer circles than you do. My experience is exactly the oposite. You may be "an old time resident", but my guess is you don't get around much.

And if you don't know that, either you don't live here or you don't understand what's really going on around you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah - the bitter old farang in Thailand. Yep - I have met your type. Let me guess, you spend most evenings in some expat-owned bar, right?

[bkkmadness]

Does hand gun really provide self protection in situations like some of you have described? I'm pretty shaken up after reading all these stories (Ratchada intersection lynching death, KSR brawl, etc) and comtemplating getting a gun.

Thats just panic in my opinion. One murder, one bar brawl, thats all that's happened and you are seriously thinking about getting a gun to protect yourself?

If you don't know how to use a gun, don't carry one. You might have it taken off you and killed with it yourself. You may scare an attacking group into suddenly bringing out their guns. Even if you are sucessful and kill someone who attacks you, you may then be facing a murder rap.

Who here as been viloently attacked without provocation from a Thai? No friends stories, or a mate of a mate bar tales, just if you have been attacked, let us know.

[Nordlys]

Does hand gun really provide self protection in situations like some of you have described? I'm pretty shaken up after reading all these stories (Ratchada intersection lynching death, KSR brawl, etc) and comtemplating getting a gun.

Thats just panic in my opinion. One murder, one bar brawl, thats all that's happened and you are seriously thinking about getting a gun to protect yourself?

Now that knowing I or my family can get killed in random violence for what wrong I have done I don't know, YES I am seriously thinking about it. And if it's just one murder and one brawl, why is Mattich's driver and so many others whose Thai friends have been mentioned in this thread carry guns? And the recent bulglar in my condo was a wake-up call of course.

If you don't know how to use a gun, don't carry one.  You might have it taken off you and killed with it yourself.  You may scare an attacking group into suddenly bringing out their guns.  Even if you are sucessful and kill someone who attacks you, you may then be facing a murder rap.

Yes, of course that has crossed my mind (therefore the question) and of course I will go to shooting range and take some shooting lessons or whatever. But would you rather watch your wife or your kid gets killed in front of you than shoot in defence? I'd rather serve my time in prison than watch my family gets killed if that's the price I have to pay for defending myself or my family. But I mean seriously, if you farangs are allowed to own a gun wouldn't you think about getting one?

Who here as been viloently attacked without provocation from a Thai?  No friends stories,  or a mate of a mate bar tales, just if you have been attacked, let us know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't afford to wait for that to happen to me and regret I wasn't prepared.

[leftcross]

just what thailand needs .... another cowboy

[lovethailandlongtime]

The thugs that invaded Spain and Greece are now able to come further afield.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ain't that the truth. I have never had any problems with Thais, drunk or sober (me or them) but I've had my moments with farang. The last thing any of us need is the Union Jack T-shirt brigade pitching up and spoiling it for those of us who just want a quiet life. Its not much fun for families on holiday either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didnt think you could keep thailand a secret forever did you???

Pattaya(for example) is rappidly becoming the new benidorm!

Thats life im afraid!

if its the quite life your after,simple,move up country..

[bkkmadness]

But would you rather watch your wife or your kid gets killed in front of you than shoot in defence?

If I honestly thought that my family were in danger of getting gunned down for no reason at all, just randomly on the steets, then I would carry a gun whether allowed to in that country or not. Fortunately I do not feel that fear in Thailand based on the fact that I have never had a fist raised to me or a threat given to me.

Being prepared is a smart thing, but being panicked into preparing for something that is unlikely to ever happen is paranoid. You might as well go out and build a nucleur bunker shelter in your back garden whilst your at it.

[Nordlys]

getting gunned down for no reason at all, just randomly on the steets, then I would carry a gun whether allowed to in that country or not.

But isn't that what just happened to this "Y's friend" at Ratchada intersection?

Being prepared is a smart thing, but being panicked into preparing for something that is unlikely to ever happen is paranoid.  You might as well go out and build a nucleur bunker shelter in your back garden whilst your at it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what you're saying. But it's not the first time I've thought about getting myself a hand gun (I really don't fancy about it). All these stories I read in TV sure have reinforced the thought though. But how likely was it do you think this Y's friend might have thought when he was alive that someday he gets viciously murdered the way he was murdered? What better reason does he have for getting killed the way he was killed than I or you might one day get harmed by a complete stranger? His fate must have been as remotest an unlikely scenario for him as I/you think it is for you and my/your family (sorry if my English is a bit funny).

And why is owning a gun not about "being prepared"? All I'm asking is if there's any reason why I should NOT own a gun as opposed to owning one, when I can legally possess one, other than for the reason you've already mentioned. I mean it doesn't hurt to just have one does it? I don't really expect there's anyone in TV who was actually in any situation that s/he had to pull the trigger at anyone but I just don't know if those things really protects you or it merely makes you feel safer just by owning one. I can go to China town tomorrow, get a license and buy a gun but I don't want to do that just because "I can" or just because every other Thais have it. Any reason I should have a second thought about it?

Edited August 6, 2005 by Nordlys

[bkkmadness]

getting gunned down for no reason at all, just randomly on the steets, then I would carry a gun whether allowed to in that country or not.

But isn't that what just happened to this "Y's friend" at Ratchada intersection?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, we do not know that it happened like that at all. For a start there wasn't any guns involved. Also, nobody knows if their was motivations behind this incident or whether it was so random. Finally, I expect your family do not travel through Ratchada at 4:30 am on the back of a motorbike. To worry about your family getting gunned down is a panicked reaction to the story of Y's friend.

If you get a gun will you carry it with you in all situations just in case there is a problem? Wiull you keep it in a small bumbag or holstered on your body when you pop into a macdonalds during the day or out with the lads for a drink at night?

For home security reasons I think a gun can be a wise idea, but what happened to Y's friend could only be avoided if we all started carrying guns. If we did that, then more than likely there would be many more murders taking places with drunk farangs shooting at each other all the time over something stupid like a spilt drink.

I was saying you panicked because you never have bought a gun before yet this thread seems to have made your mind up that you need one. I see you have said you have thought about it before so I suppose that shows its less of a panic reaction.

Do you want to live in a country or raise your family in a country where you feel a need to have a gun on you at all times for protection? If I felt that way about Thailand, I would not live here or bring up a family here.

Edited August 6, 2005 by bkkmadness