Hezbollah says ready for another war with Israel

[Renbe]

7. By August 1948, hundreds of thousand of refugees were expelled from their homes, carrying their young and old, in the summer heat, to escape massacres and seek temporary safety. Their plight became a public international issue. Count Folk Bernadotte, the newly appointed UN mediator, was shocked to see the masses of humanity wandering in a daze.

He wrote:(5)

It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine, and, indeed, at least offer the threat of permanent replacement of the Arab refugees who had been rooted in the land for centuries.

15. With Israel’s failure to comply with the conditions for its UN membership to comply with resolution 181 (Partition Plan) and resolution 194 (return of the refugees) and its subsequent failure in the Lausanne negotiations supervised by UN Conciliation Commission for Palestine (UNCCP), to allow the return of the refugees, Israel found itself free to formulate a comprehensive law for the seizure of Palestinian property. Thus the Absentees’ Property Law of March 14, 1950 was promulgated.(8)

=========

You can call it whatever you want, seizure, confiscation, but every person of sound mind will realize, when reading this well documented report, that the invaders STOLE the land from its lawful owners !!!

[Ulysses G.]

There is always another side to the story.

Are the Palestinians native to the land where Israel now exists?

• "The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, Muslim Sherkas from Russia, Muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. The civil and tribal wars between Yemmenites (from Yemen) and Kessites (from Banu Kais of Saudi Arabia) ... are well known among Palestinians.
  "My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants."
  - Walid, a Palestinian Arab defector, talking about the recent immigration of Arabs to Palestine.
  quoted from "Answering Islam"
• The current PLO and Arab claim (and mainstream media regurgitation of it) is indeed a very distorted version of `recorded history' and can only qualify as pure Orwellian propaganda. In fact, putting aside all the myths and propaganda, the only area that would qualify historically as truly Arab land, is the Arabian desert peninsula. Unfortunately, it seems that Goebbels was correct in stating that if a lie were repeated often enough, it would come to be "perceived" as truth.
• No doubt, some Arabs have lived in the area of the Mandate of Palestine for many centuries, but not as many of them as had the Jews. What is more, Jews had lived in Arab lands since times preceding Islam itself. And yet, these Jews in Arab lands were never regarded as citizens of the Arab lands they lived in and were unceremoniously expelled in the years subsequent to Israel's establishment. In other words, residency alone did not confer national rights on those who inhabited an area. Nor did it make a people out of congeries of Arabs and other nationalities that had come to the area of the Mandate of Palestine while the Jewish people were restricted. The nations of the world recognized this after World War I when the League of Nations determined that the geographical area called Palestine was to become a homeland for the Jewish people, the people that had been continuously associated with this land since ancient times when it was known as Judea and Samaria.
  - David Basch

So why did so many Arabs end up in Palestine?

<UL type=disc>During the British Mandate, even well into the 1940s, <A href="http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html">Arabs were allowed into "Palestine" in huge numbers without visa or passport, especially from the Hauran District of Syria, while the British continued to do everything possible to prevent Jews from entering, even down to the last minute when all attempts were made to deny entry to thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis. Only in 1948 were Jewish refugees allowed free entry to their homeland, and that was because Israel had, once again, become an independent nation.

<LI>[The Arabs of Ottoman Palestine may have] had certain attachments to the fields they were cultivating but at the same time they were destroying the Land. Parkes stated that "in the wars between villages it was far too common a practice to cut down fruit trees and olives and to destroy crops, and this in the end caused as much loss of life through hunger as was caused by the actual casualties of fighting". He concluded that "in spite of the immense fertility of the soil, it is probable that in the first half of the nineteenth century the population sank to the lowest level it had ever known in historic times".

<LI>Palestinian leaders claim that

Edited November 16, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Renbe]

How are you going to build a Jewish state in a land where the preexisting population is just 3.3 per cent Jewish, except by dispossessing those 96.7 per cent of the population that happen to have the “wrong” ethnic-religious origin? If Zionism could only ever be achieved through denying self-determination to the indigenous, majority population, what exactly is "liberal" about that?

How can you establish a Jewish state in a place where such a small fraction of the land is in Jewish hands, except by taking over that large proportion of the land that belongs to non-Jews? If Zionism could be achieved only by taking Palestinian land from its legal owners because from an ethnic-religious perspective they happen to be the wrong sort of people, what exactly is "liberal" about that?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/there-is-no-liberal-zionism.html

[Renbe]

Shopping Israeli Style :

Palestine Information Center – 15/11/2010

TULKAREM — A large number of Israeli troops raided at dawn Monday the house of an imprisoned noted businessman called Ali Al-Dudu as well as his furniture showroom and stores in Tulkarem city and looted some contents of the house, all the merchandise and three of his vehicles.

Local sources said that a large number of troops aboard more than 30 military vehicles, bulldozers and big cargo trucks stormed Tulkarem at two o’clock this morning and confiscated lots of furniture from his home and everything stored in the showroom and its warehouses.

The invading Israeli troops also confiscated two cars and one truck owned by the businessman before withdrawing from the city with everything they stole. The things seized during this raid are worth millions of shekels.

[cdnvic]

There's a difference between discussion and propagandizing. If all you have to say is pasting links, and other people's info please refrain. Discussion here should be in your own words, with links only to back up citations.

[Renbe]

There's a difference between discussion and propagandizing. If all you have to say is pasting links, and other people's info please refrain. Discussion here should be in your own words, with links only to back up citations.

When I post my opinion there are demands that I post links, when I post links there are demands I post my own words....

PS In my last post, the opening line read : SHOPPING ISRAELI STYLE, those were my own words, I backed up those words with a link of a recent example of the Israeli style shopping...

The three post before that were as a reply to the guy that kept demanding links to show that israel is build on stolen land.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Renbe

[geriatrickid]

Shopping Israeli Style :

Palestine Information Center – 15/11/2010

TULKAREM — A large number of Israeli troops raided at dawn Monday the house of an imprisoned noted businessman called Ali Al-Dudu as well as his furniture showroom and stores in Tulkarem city and looted some contents of the house, all the merchandise and three of his vehicles.

Local sources said that a large number of troops aboard more than 30 military vehicles, bulldozers and big cargo trucks stormed Tulkarem at two o'clock this morning and confiscated lots of furniture from his home and everything stored in the showroom and its warehouses.

The invading Israeli troops also confiscated two cars and one truck owned by the businessman before withdrawing from the city with everything they stole. The things seized during this raid are worth millions of shekels.

Nice spin to the story. Why is there no author to claim credit for the story? Why is key information missing from the story? why is the story sensationalized? Why are you posting an uncorroborated story that is basically misinformation? You have provided the Hamas version of events. A quick visit to Mr. google would have turned up different versions of the events. I am not going to rely on the Israeli version, but will instead rely on the west bank Arab version. Let's look at the IMEMC version of events, since the action was taken in an area under PLA control and administration within Israel and this allows a measure of freedom of the press. (IMEMC is a media center developed in collaboration between Palestinian and International journalists to provide independent media coverage of Israel-Palestine.) BTW, IMEMC often provides very negative reports on Israel, so please do not go to the fall back position of claiming pro-Israel bias, ok?

Monday November 15, 2010 16:58 by Circarre Parrhesia - IMEMC & Agencies

Israeli military personnel raided the home of a man who is alleged to be a finance official for the Hamas movement in the West Bank, .The man, Ali Dadu, is a resident of the north West Bank city of Tulkarem and a carpet dealer, was arrested on June 27, along with his son Diaa, had property seized that, according to Israeli Ynet News, totals $1.5 million. Dadu's arrest was followed by a conviction by the Israeli military courts that cover the Occupied Territories, and sentenced to nine months imprisonment, twelve months probation, and a fine of NIS 15,000 (approximately $4,000), following military claims that Dadu had admitted to receiving over $600,000 in funds to transfer to Hamas members in the West Bank, and evidence provided by his son.

Wow, a carpet dealer. What about the furniture????? A finance official with Hamas. oooopsie Is it any wonder the PLA then arrested his son? Is it any wonder that the PLA cooperated with the Israeli presence? If the PLA wants to interfere with a raid in the west bank all it takes is a few minutes and hundreds will be out on the streets protesting. The raid went ahead with the cooperation and blessing of the PLA. If you want to be a mouthpiece for Hamas then at least have the courtesy to say so.

BTW, here's the link. http://www.imemc.org/article/59910

Do your homework and not a Tokyo Rose.

[Renbe]

There's a difference between discussion and propagandizing. If all you have to say is pasting links, and other people's info please refrain. Discussion here should be in your own words, with links only to back up citations.

When I post my opinion there are demands that I post links, when I post links there are demands I post my own words....

PS In my last post, the opening line read : SHOPPING ISRAELI STYLE, those were my own words, I backed up those words with a link of a recent example of the Israeli style shopping...

The three post before that were as a reply to the guy Kutkey that kept demanding links to show that israel is build on stolen land

" again, please provide facts what land was taken, when and from whom "

And I did write in my own words : : You can call it whatever you want, seizure, confiscation, but every person of sound mind will realize, when reading this well documented report, that the invaders STOLE the land from its lawful owners !!!

[dave_boo]

'The promised land, the stolen land'

A summary of the study by Anja Meulenbelt and Harry van Bommel

In violation of the Geneva Conventions, UN resolutions and, amongst other agreements, the Oslo accord of 1993, numerous Jewish settlements appeared in the occupied areas, as well as connecting roads and, a few years ago, a separating wall. The result is that no more than 60% of the occupied area is available to the Palestinians, and that in a number of closed enclaves. This isolation puts a brake on the economic development of the occupied areas and almost half of the 1.7 million Palestinians live below the poverty line. For the Palestinians the occupation means, among other things, the extra-judicial execution of Palestinian suspects – the so-called targeted killings – the real possibility that your house will be bulldozed and extremely limited access to hospitals via the humiliating route of the checkpoints.

http://international...s/promisedland/

You didn't reference the whole article, and I thank you for that because it saves me a lot of typing punching holes in it big enough for an aircraft carrier.

I would be really interested in seeing how the 'settlements' constitute a violation of any of the items you have listed. The Geneva Convention, as I posted earlier, can not reasonably be applied to the area in that it was never a part of an idependent State (where a government was in place and caring for the people before the wars). The UN resolutions do not demarcate the areas that Israel needs to pull out of, in fact is worded quite specifically to exclude "all". The Oslo Accords stated that the borders were to be decided...so where in any of those international conventions or agreements does it say that Israel has to cede all the land?

It also is amazing that people are so ready to pounce on Israel for 'putting the Palestinians in concentration camps'. Is Geography such a lost study that you (speaking in the indefinite plural) don't realise that both Gaza and the West Bank share borders with other countries that are just as adamant as Israel in keeping their borders secure? Why is it that Israel's actions are condemned and those Arab countries are not?

Let's consider the economic conditions. Yes there is nearly 50% unemployment; but consider that before the second infintada Israeli factories were the largest employer in Gaza, is it surprising that a wave a suicide bombings prompted those factory owners to pull out? And what of the 'real possibility that your house will be bulldozed'? There are numerous examples of houses being bulldozed for illegal building (what the Arabs claim the Israelis are doing if you don't understand), weapons caches, and/or providing a base of operations for terror attacks into Israel.

And finally let's consider the hospital runs. I don't remember that many countries who were occupiers providing emergency services such as what Israel has done to the occupied countries. And why do they need to go to Israel. Would you claim that the 'Palestinians' are not competent enough doctors? Or is it more along the lines that Hamas uses Hospitals as launch platforms (in direct violation of international law), hijacks ambulances to move troops (ditto), and steals shipments of medicine to sell on the black market?

Dividing War Spoils:

Israel's Seizure, Confiscation and Sale of Palestinian Property

By Dr. Salman Abu-Sitta, Palestine Land Society, London, August 2009.

1. There has been nothing like it in the pages of history books. A foreign minority, descending upon a national majority of a country, fortified by colonial political, military and financial support and a hostile ideology, emptying the country of its people, seizing all their land and property, obliterating their landscape, history and memory, claiming that this crime is an act of divine intervention, and persisting, unchecked by force of justice in committing this crime, according to the same plan for over 60 years with no end in sight, is unprecedented in the history of the world. This is the recent history of Palestine. The records of the United Nations, and before it, the League of Nations, contain a detailed chronicle this of long violent history.

2. When Allenby's British forces entered Palestine in 1917 to free its people from the yoke of Ottoman rule, the Jews in Palestine were a small community not exceeding 56,000 souls.

3. By military force, the Jewish forces conquered 78% of Palestine in 1948 and depopulated 675 towns and villages, leaving only 15% of its Palestinian citizens under the rule of the Jewish forces. This area of Palestine was called Israel. The expelled population makes up 6,320,000 people (2008) who are refugees since 1948. Their entire land and property have been confiscated by the Israeli authorities under a pseudo-legal formulation.

http://www.alzaytoun...c=1519&a=104340

>>> Click here to download the full report ( 46 pages, 2.4 MB) with detailed tables, figures and academic documentation.

http://www.alzaytoun...tion_PLS-09.pdf

Complete tripe. The history of the land itself (which I notice he was careful to coach as "recent history") makes ruin of the first point. That's exactly what the Romans did. It's also exactly what the Muslims did. Also amusing in his point is the fact that he claims 'unchecked by force of justice in committing this crime' when the combined armies of the Arab nations couldn't exterminate the Jews, which they broadcast before they attacked in 1948 as their aim.

Point two is a historical fact that needs context. The reason that the Jews were a minority is simply due to the fact that the British, to prevent uprisings by the Muslims, restricted entrance of Jews in violation of the Balfour Decleration. Add in that the Muslims murdered as many Jews as possible and you can see why. And to claim that UK entered Palestine to free its people of the Ottoman yoke is facetious at best; this connotates an independent State before the Ottomans; can you name an independent State before, then with the exception of the Crusaders declaring an State, from the time the Romans conqured the area?

Point three is the most ridiculous; how are the descendents of refugees also refugees? What other groups of refugees have been afforded this affront to common sense and decency? Those who other Arabs haven't been using as pawns to destroy the Jews. While I can not claim that some of the refugess were not driven from their homes by the IDF, the vast majority heeded the instructions on the radio from the Arab attackers and left the lands they had been living on. It's also patently false that the Israelis 'seized' the land; I believe UG posted earlier historical facts about a large number of the lands actually being purchased. And to remain fair, there was land stolen by individual Israelis; the Israeli courts have found in favour of 'refugees' in several of those case. Further truth-telling results in an admission that some of the Arabs actually forged documents or make claims to lands they or their ancestors never lived on.

7. By August 1948, hundreds of thousand of refugees were expelled from their homes, carrying their young and old, in the summer heat, to escape massacres and seek temporary safety. Their plight became a public international issue. Count Folk Bernadotte, the newly appointed UN mediator, was shocked to see the masses of humanity wandering in a daze.

He wrote:(5)

It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine, and, indeed, at least offer the threat of permanent replacement of the Arab refugees who had been rooted in the land for centuries.

15. With Israel's failure to comply with the conditions for its UN membership to comply with resolution 181 (Partition Plan) and resolution 194 (return of the refugees) and its subsequent failure in the Lausanne negotiations supervised by UN Conciliation Commission for Palestine (UNCCP), to allow the return of the refugees, Israel found itself free to formulate a comprehensive law for the seizure of Palestinian property. Thus the Absentees' Property Law of March 14, 1950 was promulgated.(8)

=========

You can call it whatever you want, seizure, confiscation, but every person of sound mind will realize, when reading this well documented report, that the invaders STOLE the land from its lawful owners !!!

Why did those people have to flee? Is it because the combined armies of the Arabian pennisula were poised to attack and told them to?

Actually Israel made no claims to anything other than what it agree to (resolution 181) until they were attacked. In regards to resolution 194, it should be noted that at least one time, before there were millions of 'refugees' Israel offered to accept those Arabs who wished to return. That offer was rejected.

Absentee law is a well recognised international norm; why wouldn't Israel be allowed to institute it?

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks dave_boo and geriatrickeid. REAL facts, REAL history, good writing and very informative!

Edited November 16, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

When I post my opinion there are demands that I post links, when I post links there are demands I post my own words....

Links (from credible sources) are required to prove that assertions that you made in your posts are accurate.

However, links to Hamas sympathizer websites and such are totally self-defeating when it comes to convincing John Q, Public.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[sbk]

I don't know how to keep this topic civil. I think most of you are incapable of doing so. And I suspect since its the same four or five people "debating", regardless of whatever warnings are issued you will continue to bait, flame, troll and antagonize until you are suspended and can't post.

In that light, I am closing it.

//CLOSED//