Knowledge Out Of Bhuddist Wisdom And Enlightment

[christiaan]

I am interested to learn to know more about the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice?

There is very much information to find about the practice of Buddhisme, and then I mean especially the meditation and meditation techniques.

Then most of what I read is related to personal development and the way to do and some very general descriptions of the results.

But I have problems to find information about specific knowledge that came by this way to the world.

There is written that when people become enlighted they gain insight in Karma.

I would say when enlightment means becoming aware of all, I would expect to find specific information about the origin of the world, specific information about the essential difference between lets say a lion and a bird.

I would expect to find knowledge about the origin of and differences between language and between religions.

I would like to find information about the differences between awareness of an African and a Russian, information about the possible or impossible existence of Atlantis, about the future.

I do not read much about this and I am aware Buddha did not tell much about all these subjects but one would expect other people applying the Buddhist meditation techniques in the last 2500 years will have been occupied with these kind of questions and shared their knowledge out of their reached state of enlightment.

I would apreciate to find more information about gained knowledge as I described here.

[IMA_FARANG]

If you do a Google or Yahoo search on the intranet on the topic "Free Sangha" you will come up with a URL you can access for a discusion forum that includes many topics considred from a Buddhist standpoint. There is an active meditation sub-forum that considers meditation; it's practices, and goals. There are also sub-forums that consider such topics as Science, Astronomy, and Philosophy from both a Buddhst standpoint and from other views.

Registration is free...just agree to follow the forum rules of courtesty, consideration for other viewpoints, and understanding of other's opinions...which ought to be second-nature to a practicing Buddhist...no matter what sect or tradition that he/she follows. The forum is moderated for those rules...but there is no censorship, your viewpoint is as good as any other, and just as respected.

So look it up; ten Register and log-in, and join the conversation. Almost certainly, someone, will have an answer to your questions.

[Brucenkhamen]

Why would you expect Buddhist meditation to result in this kind of knowledge? If you want this kind of knowledge join a library.

The Buddha is said to have gained knowledge of his past lives and various psychic powers on his enlightenment but he never made a show of them nor encouraged his followers to seek them. This is because they are side affects of the path not the purpose of the path, and potentially a dead end for someone who doesn't realise that. It's possible that some advanced practitioners have developed these side effects but if they are Theravadin monks they are forbidden in the vinaya to lay claim to them in front of unordained people.

I would have thought one wouldn't need to get enlightened to know the difference between a lion and a bird, between languages, between african and russian.

Can I ask, do you know what the purpose of the Buddhas teaching is? If not then that's a good place to start

[christiaan]

Why would you expect Buddhist meditation to result in this kind of knowledge? If you want this kind of knowledge join a library.

The Buddha is said to have gained knowledge of his past lives and various psychic powers on his enlightenment but he never made a show of them nor encouraged his followers to seek them. This is because they are side affects of the path not the purpose of the path, and potentially a dead end for someone who doesn't realise that. It's possible that some advanced practitioners have developed these side effects but if they are Theravadin monks they are forbidden in the vinaya to lay claim to them in front of unordained people.

I would have thought one wouldn't need to get enlightened to know the difference between a lion and a bird, between languages, between african and russian.

Can I ask, do you know what the purpose of the Buddhas teaching is? If not then that's a good place to start

Well, there are many scientists working to improve practical life for humanity, scientists like doctors, scientists who try to develop healthy food agriculture, scientists who try to solve the problem of car emissions, scientists looking for new medicines, scientists involved with climate, ozon, flood problems, and so on and so on and so on.

When you can advise me to go to a library to find this knowledge, then answer my question and tell me what knowledge in all the libraries came from Buddhist medtation and enlightment, that would realy be helpfull. Where can I find this in the libraries?

But do I have to understand out of your contribution that there is no knowledge out of Buddhist meditation and enlightment to find and that when there is (?) they are by some rules of Vinaya out of the Teravada interpretation of this, secrets for the lay people???. Beside the fact that this would make a sect of Theravada Buddhism there are many other Buddhist monks in the world outside the Teravada who are not bound by such a rule.

So I stick to the question as I asked and look on "Free Sangha" - that was a nice suggestion - for some answers.

When you do not know the purpose of the teachings of Buddha, just look on internet , you will find a lot of interpretations with regard to this also, so do not ask me I would probably give my interpretation.

[Brucenkhamen]

Well, there are many scientists working to improve practical life for humanity, scientists like doctors, scientists who try to develop healthy food agriculture, scientists who try to solve the problem of car emissions, scientists looking for new medicines, scientists involved with climate, ozon, flood problems, and so on and so on and so on.

When you can advise me to go to a library to find this knowledge, then answer my question and tell me what knowledge in all the libraries came from Buddhist medtation and enlightment, that would realy be helpfull. Where can I find this in the libraries?

Why do you assume that this kind of knowledge should come from Buddhism when you've already identified that science provides this kind of knowledge?

You'll find information on Buddhist practice and philosophy in the religion section of any library, but if you want to know about the differences between lions and birds I'd recommend the biology section, or between africans and russians try the social studies section.

[christiaan]

I have no problem in explaining you my question.

I know where to find information about Buddhist practice and philosophy, one can find tons about it, nowadays Buddhism is a very trendy subject and everybody seems to write about this from all kind of directions.

But what I am looking for is information in the world about the world that came or comes directly out of Buddhist meditation and enlightment.

All the information I find about the essential differences between for example a Russian and an African, about the origin and evolution of the world, about the treatment of diseases and about the development of communication certainly do not show they are from Buddhist enlightment.

For some people practicing some interpetation of Buddhism this might all be irrelevant and gaining this kind of knowledge is left to "lay" people, but science, knowledge, starts by having questions and not by limiting or categorizing them by some kind of high standard.

So I assume that since it seems there have been and are a quantity of enlighted Buddhists in the world, that there would also have been or is quite a lot of knowledge about the objects, processes and problems - to be solved - related to this world.

When somebody can 'see' his former lives - that are always related to lives of other peoples Karma and events in the world - one should have more knowledge about the world and many things of and inside this world.

If not so I would by observation have to conclude there is some form of enlightment but a limitted one.

[Brucenkhamen]

What are you trying to achieve? If you want to know something about Buddhist practice you are welcome to ask, but I really don't see the point of harping on Buddhist discussion board about how you think it should do things it wasn't designed to do.

I don't contact Nokia and tell them their products should have steering wheels for example.

If you really do believe that enlightened Buddhist practitioners should have the answers to the questions you like to pose then there are plenty of famous teachers in SE Asia I suggest you go and visit some of them and see what you learn. I really don't see why you should expect Thaivisa to be a font of all knowledge

A HANDFUL OF LEAVES

The Blessed One was once living at Kosambi in a wood of simsapa trees. He picked up a few leaves in his hand, and he asked the bhikkhus, ‘How do you conceive this, bhikkhus, which is more, the few leaves that I have picked up in my hand or those on the trees in the wood?

‘The leaves that the Blessed One has picked up in his hand are few, Lord; those in the wood are far more.’

‘So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have not told them. And what have I told you? This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That is what I have told you. Why have I told it? Because it brings benefit, and advancement in the Holy Life, and because it leads to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So bhikkhus, let your task be this: This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

[samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31]

[fabianfred]

as the Buddha said..... I teach only stress and the relief from stress.

He could know anything he wanted...but only taught what was essential to gain enlightenment.

Those who have practiced his teachings and reached the four stages will also be getting much knowledge ..... glimpses of nirvana etc. but they would be unable to explain it to those who had not got as far upon the path.

Reading about other's meditation experiences can be a hinderance when we start to desire and want the same things.

If you spent as much time practicing as you do on this forum you might get there quicker yourself...then you can tell us....

[Xangsamhua]

as the Buddha said..... I teach only stress and the relief from stress.

He could know anything he wanted...but only taught what was essential to gain enlightenment.

Those who have practiced his teachings and reached the four stages will also be getting much knowledge ..... glimpses of nirvana etc. but they would be unable to explain it to those who had not got as far upon the path.

Reading about other's meditation experiences can be a hinderance when we start to desire and want the same things.

If you spent as much time practicing as you do on this forum you might get there quicker yourself...then you can tell us....

I haven't been following this discussion closely, but if Christiaan's looking for a book on meditation practice and experience he might like to look at Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook. Ajahn Brahm speaks of his own experience as well as giving guidance.

For a less exuberant and less roseate discussion of the place of meditation (zazen and shikantaza) in everyday life, Charlotte Joko Beck's Everyday Zen is helpful. She stresses that for most people it takes a long time and a lot of sitting to break through the superstructure of ego. She also asserts the importance of a sangha for extended sesshins and acknowledges that Zen practice may not be right for everyone. I think this book is the best I've read (for me) and I am now able to sustain regular daily sitting for about 25 minutes (a bit more on weekends) - a breakthrough for me. What do I get out of it? So far nothing tangible, and I'm not trying to get anything out of it, but I feel it is very worthwhile.

[christiaan]

as the Buddha said..... I teach only stress and the relief from stress.

He could know anything he wanted...but only taught what was essential to gain enlightenment.

Those who have practiced his teachings and reached the four stages will also be getting much knowledge ..... glimpses of nirvana etc. but they would be unable to explain it to those who had not got as far upon the path.

Reading about other's meditation experiences can be a hinderance when we start to desire and want the same things.

If you spent as much time practicing as you do on this forum you might get there quicker yourself...then you can tell us....

People who get much knowledge, even more then glimpses of Nirvana, are able to explain and tell lay people about this.

What is the abillity of explaining or informing people about Nirvana compared to reaching the state of actualy 'seeing' and experiencing Nirvana ??

Being informed about the results of meditation of high aware persons can be very helpfull to go your way in your way too.

In your way of thinking even telling people about Nirvana, meditation and enlightment can be a hinderance too.

I probably practice more as I do write on this forum, thank you.

[christiaan]

as the Buddha said..... I teach only stress and the relief from stress.

He could know anything he wanted...but only taught what was essential to gain enlightenment.

Those who have practiced his teachings and reached the four stages will also be getting much knowledge ..... glimpses of nirvana etc. but they would be unable to explain it to those who had not got as far upon the path.

Reading about other's meditation experiences can be a hinderance when we start to desire and want the same things.

If you spent as much time practicing as you do on this forum you might get there quicker yourself...then you can tell us....

I haven't been following this discussion closely, but if Christiaan's looking for a book on meditation practice and experience he might like to look at Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook. Ajahn Brahm speaks of his own experience as well as giving guidance.

For a less exuberant and less roseate discussion of the place of meditation (zazen and shikantaza) in everyday life, Charlotte Joko Beck's Everyday Zen is helpful. She stresses that for most people it takes a long time and a lot of sitting to break through the superstructure of ego. She also asserts the importance of a sangha for extended sesshins and acknowledges that Zen practice may not be right for everyone. I think this book is the best I've read (for me) and I am now able to sustain regular daily sitting for about 25 minutes (a bit more on weekends) - a breakthrough for me. What do I get out of it? So far nothing tangible, and I'm not trying to get anything out of it, but I feel it is very worthwhile.

Allthough this topic is a little more difference as your answer to it I like to thank you for your contribution. It is good information in relation to meditation practice and experience..

[christiaan]

What are you trying to achieve? If you want to know something about Buddhist practice you are welcome to ask, but I really don't see the point of harping on Buddhist discussion board about how you think it should do things it wasn't designed to do.

I don't contact Nokia and tell them their products should have steering wheels for example.

If you really do believe that enlightened Buddhist practitioners should have the answers to the questions you like to pose then there are plenty of famous teachers in SE Asia I suggest you go and visit some of them and see what you learn. I really don't see why you should expect Thaivisa to be a font of all knowledge

A HANDFUL OF LEAVES

The Blessed One was once living at Kosambi in a wood of simsapa trees. He picked up a few leaves in his hand, and he asked the bhikkhus, 'How do you conceive this, bhikkhus, which is more, the few leaves that I have picked up in my hand or those on the trees in the wood?

'The leaves that the Blessed One has picked up in his hand are few, Lord; those in the wood are far more.'

'So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have not told them. And what have I told you? This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That is what I have told you. Why have I told it? Because it brings benefit, and advancement in the Holy Life, and because it leads to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So bhikkhus, let your task be this: This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'

[samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31]

KISS ...I like to achieve awareness about Buddhism, all aspects of it.

I do this by looking for knowledge, direct knowledge.

I feel inspired to do so by asking questions, just like Sidhartha Gautama did.

I cannot remember I did anywhere prescribed Buddhists or any other people what they must do, or how they have to do, but maybe there could have been some misunderstanding because of the language, in that case I am sorry .

When Nokia would have a forum to exchange information, to discuss, to talk about their products, and I would see a logical reason to suggest they would use steering wheels, it is possible I could do so. Why not? My question could be helpfull to them and me.

If you think my questions and topics overhere are in no way helpfull to you, ...you must not read it, I do not tell you or prescribe you to do so, you are free to do or not to do.

You are free to react in your way, it certainly turns out to be helpfull to get a picture about the way Buddhism nowadays is handled, especially by westerners.

I do not believe enlighted Buddhist practitioners do have the answers to the kind of questions I like to pose, I wonder if they have any knowledge with regard to these questions.

And since there are a number of other people on Thaivisa with a broader view it is interesting to see if they can help in any way to make me find the answer to my questions.

When teachers have the answers to my questions it is interesting to know who they are and then probably their knowledge will enter this forum by other people too,

When people do not like to go into answers becos they do not like the questions, history shows then people in some way try to stop the questions.

A solid philosophy doesnot have to be afraid for questions and will not avoid them but see them as a challenge.

The other thing some people think is helpfull is spreading some texts as dogma.

I will not go into the A HANDFULL OF LEAVES, it is possible it would upset you even more.

I am a free thinker, no follower

Sometimes , the idea comes up in my mind that Buddhism is intrerpreted/presented as a "cookbook" . This idea tells many many people nowadays write their Buddhist "cookbook", with all kind of -new- recipes how to cook, but I cannot discover any dinner. There are even many courses informing how to cook. But I still cannot discover any dinner. The idea tells me there could be some secret dinner, but that dinner is only for the enlighted cook to enjoy in secret, in happiness and peace.

This idea is not an opinion, just an idea crossing my mind.

[Brucenkhamen]

For a less exuberant and less roseate discussion of the place of meditation (zazen and shikantaza) in everyday life, Charlotte Joko Beck's Everyday Zen is helpful.

She's one of my favorite Zen teachers, I recommend you get hold of her other book "Nothing Special Living Zen".

[Brucenkhamen]

KISS ...I like to achieve awareness about Buddhism, all aspects of it.

I do this by looking for knowledge, direct knowledge.

I feel inspired to do so by asking questions, just like Sidhartha Gautama did.

The Buddha looked for direct knowledge by not just asking questions but by following the instructions and methodologies of the teachers of his day, he had to learn all they had to offer before he could be in a position to go beyond that.

If you think my questions and topics overhere are in no way helpfull to you, ...you must not read it, I do not tell you or prescribe you to do so, you are free to do or not to do.

And if you find my answers unhelpful you need not read them either. However as this is a Buddhist forum I do feel I'm entitled to steer discussion on to the topic of Buddhist practice.

I do not believe enlighted Buddhist practitioners do have the answers to the kind of questions I like to pose,

So why pose them as if you did? what are you trying to prove?

When people do not like to go into answers becos they do not like the questions, history shows then people in some way try to stop the questions.

A solid philosophy doesnot have to be afraid for questions and will not avoid them but see them as a challenge.

Practitioners of a solid philosophy will understand what kind of attitude is behind a question and challenge the attitude rather than getting bogged down in irrelevant speculation that leads nowhere.

I will not go into the A HANDFULL OF LEAVES, it is possible it would upset you even more.

I am a free thinker, no follower

I expected you wouldn't, after all it's an historical account of a teaching delivered by the Buddha, why start showing an interest now.

Sometimes , the idea comes up in my mind that Buddhism is intrerpreted/presented as a "cookbook" . This idea tells many many people nowadays write their Buddhist "cookbook", with all kind of -new- recipes how to cook, but I cannot discover any dinner. There are even many courses informing how to cook. But I still cannot discover any dinner. The idea tells me there could be some secret dinner, but that dinner is only for the enlighted cook to enjoy in secret, in happiness and peace.

I like your cookbook analogy, yes Buddhism is like a cookbook. One can collect all the recipes you want, one can read them and study them and boast how that shows one is an open minded free thinker but if one never cooks the recipes and tastes the results then one can't ever say one really knows them.

Pretty much any description of enlightenment is vague and difficult to understand, mostly that's because the enlightened person has to use conceptual language to describe a state beyond concepts. It's pretty common to get confused by this and you wouldn't be the first but what a Buddhist practitioner does is starts cooking with the recipes anyway and starts seeing the results. The results are like a taste of enlightenment and once one gets a taste one keeps coming back for more, as ones mind evolves into a more solid and free state one has confidence he is going in the right direction.

[Xangsamhua]

For a less exuberant and less roseate discussion of the place of meditation (zazen and shikantaza) in everyday life, Charlotte Joko Beck's Everyday Zen is helpful.

She's one of my favorite Zen teachers, I recommend you get hold of her other book "Nothing Special Living Zen".

Thank you. I've just had a sample of the book sent to my Kindle.

[christiaan]

KISS ...I like to achieve awareness about Buddhism, all aspects of it.

I do this by looking for knowledge, direct knowledge.

I feel inspired to do so by asking questions, just like Siddhartha Gautama did.

The Buddha looked for direct knowledge by not just asking questions but by following the instructions and methodologies of the teachers of his day, he had to learn all they had to offer before he could be in a position to go beyond that.

You did not notice I was writing about Siddhartha Gautama. If we do not know and pay no attention to the difference between Sidhartha Gautama and the Buddha, then there is a problem.

If you think my questions and topics overhere are in no way helpfull to you, ...you must not read it, I do not tell you or prescribe you to do so, you are free to do or not to do.

And if you find my answers unhelpful you need not read them either. However as this is a Buddhist forum I do feel I'm entitled to steer discussion on to the topic of Buddhist practice.

As I wrote: You are free to react in your way, it certainly turns out to be helpfull to get a picture about the way Buddhism nowadays is handled, especially by westerners.

I repeat in some bigger script so it maybe will be noticed by you this way.

I do not believe enlighted Buddhist practitioners do have the answers to the kind of questions I like to pose,

So why pose them as if you did? what are you trying to prove?

As I wrote becos: I wonder if they have any knowledge with regard to these questions.

so it is not about believing or about not believing but about wondering

When people do not like to go into answers becos they do not like the questions, history shows then people in some way try to stop the questions.

A solid philosophy doesnot have to be afraid for questions and will not avoid them but see them as a challenge.

Practitioners of a solid philosophy will understand what kind of attitude is behind a question and challenge the attitude rather than getting bogged down in irrelevant speculation that leads nowhere.

Practitioners of a solid philosophy at the best will use logic and healthy thinking to stay with the subject and avoid to drift away in assuming things about someones attitude.

I will not go into the A HANDFULL OF LEAVES, it is possible it would upset you even more.

I am a free thinker, no follower

I expected you wouldn't, after all it's an historical account of a teaching delivered by the Buddha, why start showing an interest now.

Wisdom is not possesed by repeating accounts attributed to Buddha, it often show these texts are used to show of knowledge without knowing, and in those situations texts become dogma's in an attempt to control other people. I suggest it is better for people to start thinking themself instead of posing as some Buddha to be.

Sometimes , the idea comes up in my mind that Buddhism is intrerpreted/presented as a "cookbook" . This idea tells many many people nowadays write their Buddhist "cookbook", with all kind of -new- recipes how to cook, but I cannot discover any dinner. There are even many courses informing how to cook. But I still cannot discover any dinner. The idea tells me there could be some secret dinner, but that dinner is only for the enlighted cook to enjoy in secret, in happiness and peace.

I like your cookbook analogy, yes Buddhism is like a cookbook. One can collect all the recipes you want, one can read them and study them and boast how that shows one is an open minded free thinker but if one never cooks the recipes and tastes the results then one can't ever say one really knows them.

Pretty much any description of enlightenment is vague and difficult to understand, So you know all descriptions? mostly that's because the enlightened person has to use conceptual language to describe a state beyond concepts. It's pretty common to get confused by this and you wouldn't be the first but what a Buddhist practitioner does is starts cooking with the recipes anyway and starts seeing the results. The results are like a taste of enlightenment and once one gets a taste one keeps coming back for more, as ones mind evolves into a more solid and free state one has confidence he is going in the right direction.

When Nikola Tesla 'invented' (infact dis-covered) the AC motor becos he identified the rotating magnetic induction field principle, this was a fact nobody was aware of before.

Tesla did not made magnetic induction but discovered this as being present in reality (in the non material world). By his specific way of concentration and 'meditation' he came to dis-cover the living ideas of the spiritual world leading to the construction of his motor.(The Ac Motor did not exist in any form of matter before, and came to existence, was 'born' into the world out of the spirit of Nikola Tesla) After explaining the principle of this invention people understood and started to make and at the end produce these motors commercialy and this is still done today. In his way, at his time in relation to this subject - and electricity in general - Tesla was an enlighted person and can be looked up on as one of the greatest 'inventors' in human history, to some people ven the greatest of all.

So to say it is difficult for an enlighted person to explain the knowledge he or she came to know is an assumption and not a truth lived by own experience.

It is in the line of the way of some 'Buddhists' to diminish the meaning and the value of the life and inventions of people like Nikola Tesla - we have to realise there are people who are 'aware' they cannot uplift their ego standard by being an adept of Tesla, (allthough they honour him everytime they use electricity) there is more to gain in society nowadays in being an adept of Buddha - , but this is not the essence of this story.

The essence of the story is that when someone becomes aware of something other people are not aware of, it is possible to introduce this knowledge to lay people by explanation.

This doesnot mean all lay people will immediately understand the 'new' penomena entering the world, but many will. That is part of the Karma of our world. And allthough even today many people still do not understand the principle of an AC Motor, about all people accept this as part of reality of life. Beside some 'Buddhists' who tell the material world is an illusion even when they have themself transported in Mercedes to visit the cultural Buddhist rituals.

One could also suggest inventions like made by Tesla were far more easy to discover as the knowledge discovered by Buddha.

Beside the question out of what authority someone could say such a thing, we have to realise that today, about 67 years after the dead of Tesla there are still some machines of Tesla scientists do not understand. We cannot...... becos he didnot explain them.

As you wrote before: I do feel I'm entitled to steer discussion on to the topic of Buddhist practice, suggesting in your reactions before, my questions are out of the topic I would like to point at your answer in another topic : "Rebel Buddha" where you write : We gain understanding of our own mind, and come to an understanding of our personal interactions with and our place in the world. From that we begin to realise that we aren't so different and the minds of others work in much the same way, but I don't think that really extends to "understanding of the world, the origin, the nature, the meaning, the future of it".

So THERE it is not a problem to write about the same topic, there it is inside the topic of Buddhism?

I wonder, again wonder: What kind of attitude...... is this?

[Brucenkhamen]

You did not notice I was writing about Siddhartha Gautama. If we do not know and pay no attention to the difference between Sidhartha Gautama and the Buddha, then there is a problem.

If you knew anything about Buddhism you'd know that Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha when he achieved enlightenment and anytime someone refers to "The Buddha" that's who they are referring to. Even in Mahayana circles where there are considered to be many other Buddha's Siddhartha Gautama is "The Buddha".

As I wrote becos: I wonder if they have any knowledge with regard to these questions. so it is not about believing or about not believing but about wondering

I wonder what's for dinner sometimes but I don't post it on Thai Visa. Even so people have been happy to reply to your wonderings and explain why from a Buddhist perspective they aren't terribly relevant, but the wonderings keep wandering back. I can only assume you aren’t interested in a Buddhist perspective.

Practitioners of a solid philosophy at the best will use logic and healthy thinking to stay with the subject and avoid to drift away in assuming things about someones attitude.

That's right, so if you want to stay with the subject the subject of this board is Buddhism in Thailand.

Wisdom is not possesed by repeating accounts attributed to Buddha, it often show these texts are used to show of knowledge without knowing, and in those situations texts become dogma's in an attempt to control other people. I suggest it is better for people to start thinking themself instead of posing as some Buddha to be.

Absolutely I agree with you that often just repeating texts is used to show of knowledge without knowing, and you'll notice that the text I quoted was there to support my thoughts on the subject rather than as a piece of dogma that you were supposed to believe because the Buddha said it.

Of course the Buddha advised us not to believe what he says just because he said it instead one must test them out, but to be so dismissive of the Buddhas teaching on a Buddhist forum is just being obnoxious.

Pretty much any description of enlightenment is vague and difficult to understand, So you know all descriptions?

If you think “pretty much any” is synonymous with “all” then I overestimated your English skills.

Tesla was an enlighted person and can be looked up on as one of the greatest 'inventors' in human history, to some people ven the greatest of all.

I think you’d better learn something about the definition of the word “enlightenment” in the Buddhist context, then you’d be better able to use and understand the term on this board.

So to say it is difficult for an enlighted person to explain the knowledge he or she came to know is an assumption and not a truth lived by own experience.

Who said that?

Beside some 'Buddhists' who tell the material world is an illusion even when they have themself transported in Mercedes to visit the cultural Buddhist rituals.

Indeed, there is a fringe philosophy in Mahayana that teaches the material world is an illusion.

As you wrote before: I do feel I'm entitled to steer discussion on to the topic of Buddhist practice, suggesting in your reactions before, my questions are out of the topic I would like to point at your answer in another topic : "Rebel Buddha" where you write : We gain understanding of our own mind, and come to an understanding of our personal interactions with and our place in the world. From that we begin to realise that we aren't so different and the minds of others work in much the same way, but I don't think that really extends to "understanding of the world, the origin, the nature, the meaning, the future of it".

So THERE it is not a problem to write about the same topic, there it is inside the topic of Buddhism?

So, what’s your point?

I wonder, again wonder: What kind of attitude...... is this?

The feeling is mutual which is why I’ve asked a couple of times, what are you trying to achieve?

[fabianfred]

perhaps he is a christian..trying to drive all us Buddhists mad...!!???

[christiaan]

perhaps he is a christian..trying to drive all us Buddhists mad...!!???

Well, that is a statement!

[christiaan]

You did not notice I was writing about Siddhartha Gautama. If we do not know and pay no attention to the difference between Sidhartha Gautama and the Buddha, then there is a problem.

If you knew anything about Buddhism you'd know that Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha when he achieved enlightenment and anytime someone refers to "The Buddha" that's who they are referring to. Even in Mahayana circles where there are considered to be many other Buddha's Siddhartha Gautama is "The Buddha".

As I wrote becos: I wonder if they have any knowledge with regard to these questions. so it is not about believing or about not believing but about wondering

I wonder what's for dinner sometimes but I don't post it on Thai Visa. Even so people have been happy to reply to your wonderings and explain why from a Buddhist perspective they aren't terribly relevant, but the wonderings keep wandering back. I can only assume you aren’t interested in a Buddhist perspective.

Practitioners of a solid philosophy at the best will use logic and healthy thinking to stay with the subject and avoid to drift away in assuming things about someones attitude.

That's right, so if you want to stay with the subject the subject of this board is Buddhism in Thailand.

Wisdom is not possesed by repeating accounts attributed to Buddha, it often show these texts are used to show of knowledge without knowing, and in those situations texts become dogma's in an attempt to control other people. I suggest it is better for people to start thinking themself instead of posing as some Buddha to be.

Absolutely I agree with you that often just repeating texts is used to show of knowledge without knowing, and you'll notice that the text I quoted was there to support my thoughts on the subject rather than as a piece of dogma that you were supposed to believe because the Buddha said it.

Of course the Buddha advised us not to believe what he says just because he said it instead one must test them out, but to be so dismissive of the Buddhas teaching on a Buddhist forum is just being obnoxious.

Pretty much any description of enlightenment is vague and difficult to understand, So you know all descriptions?

If you think “pretty much any” is synonymous with “all” then I overestimated your English skills.

Tesla was an enlighted person and can be looked up on as one of the greatest 'inventors' in human history, to some people ven the greatest of all.

I think you’d better learn something about the definition of the word “enlightenment” in the Buddhist context, then you’d be better able to use and understand the term on this board.

So to say it is difficult for an enlighted person to explain the knowledge he or she came to know is an assumption and not a truth lived by own experience.

Who said that?

Beside some 'Buddhists' who tell the material world is an illusion even when they have themself transported in Mercedes to visit the cultural Buddhist rituals.

Indeed, there is a fringe philosophy in Mahayana that teaches the material world is an illusion.

As you wrote before: I do feel I'm entitled to steer discussion on to the topic of Buddhist practice, suggesting in your reactions before, my questions are out of the topic I would like to point at your answer in another topic : "Rebel Buddha" where you write : We gain understanding of our own mind, and come to an understanding of our personal interactions with and our place in the world. From that we begin to realise that we aren't so different and the minds of others work in much the same way, but I don't think that really extends to "understanding of the world, the origin, the nature, the meaning, the future of it".

So THERE it is not a problem to write about the same topic, there it is inside the topic of Buddhism?

So, what’s your point?

I wonder, again wonder: What kind of attitude...... is this?

The feeling is mutual which is why I’ve asked a couple of times, what are you trying to achieve?

Well, isn't it all about thinking? clear healthy thinking?

No specific Christian, no specific Islam, Bahai, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist thinking but just HUMAN thinking.

And overhere also with regard to Buddhism and not only out of Buddhism?

A thinking that is not limited.

So, what is it that you are trying to achieve?

[Brucenkhamen]

Well, isn't it all about thinking? clear healthy thinking?

No specific Christian, no specific Islam, Bahai, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist thinking but just HUMAN thinking.

And overhere also with regard to Buddhism and not only out of Buddhism?

A thinking that is not limited.

No it isn't, because human thinking is not a reliable guide. Human thinking is distorted by desire, aversion, and delusion, by a conceptual framework that the mind constructs in order to relate to it's experience, and by which the mind interprets our experience. The trouble is the mind mistakes that construct for reality.

So the answer isn't more thinking but less, instead direct awareness direct and direct knowing of experience.

But before you say that means I'm anti thinking, proposing some kind of mindless Buddhism as if the world needed another mindless religion, thinking is a useful tool by which to solve problems and develop solutions and strategies. So understanding it's just a tool you use it as a tool rather than relying on it to be your guide to reality.

This is what I've come to learn by practising what I understand to be the Buddhas path to awakening.

So, what is it that you are trying to achieve?

I'm trying to talk about Buddhism, why else would I log onto a Buddhist discussion board?

[sabaijai]

One book that may satisfy you temporarily is Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha: An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book. I haven't read it myself but it reportedly contains detailed descriptions of progressive stages of practice and their results.

But reading the writings of an enlightened person about enlightenment is like watching their finger while they point at the moon.

You can ask questions ad infinitum, but to eat you'll have to cook for yourself. No one can cook it for you. They can only advise. There are many books and teachers out there full of advice on practice. Many of these books and teachers harbour far more knowledge than our humble ThaiVisa Buddhism forum community, I'm sure.

Even then, in terms of questions you think enlightenment might answer, I think it's safe to say that enlightenment isn't omniscience. 'Knowledge' is just concepts anyway, created by the mind interpreting form as perceived via the sense doors. The paramattha dhamma are the ultimate reality in Buddhism. One written source that attempts a detailed explanation:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

[christiaan]

Well, isn't it all about thinking? clear healthy thinking?

No specific Christian, no specific Islam, Bahai, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist thinking but just HUMAN thinking.

And overhere also with regard to Buddhism and not only out of Buddhism?

A thinking that is not limited.

No it isn't, because human thinking is not a reliable guide. Human thinking is distorted by desire, aversion, and delusion, by a conceptual framework that the mind constructs in order to relate to it's experience, and by which the mind interprets our experience. The trouble is the mind mistakes that construct for reality.

Well when this is human thinking in your life you are right for your self.

It is not my thinking and it is also not my thinking when you think you can try to prescribe me your thinking should be my thinking.

So the answer isn't more thinking but less, instead direct awareness direct and direct knowing of experience.

Well for you the question seems to be more or less thinking, - again you do not notice the difference in writing and so argueing - I do not write or argue out of quantity but out of quality.

As I wrote, to me it is not about more or less thinking but about clear logical healthy unrestricted thinking.

But before you say that means I'm anti thinking, proposing some kind of mindless Buddhism as if the world needed another mindless religion, thinking is a useful tool by which to solve problems and develop solutions and strategies. So understanding it's just a tool you use it as a tool rather than relying on it to be your guide to reality.

Very interesting to see thinking can be reliable in solving problems and so on but starts to be unreliable at some subjective point.

Well when that would be the case I would suggest you use the reliable part of your thinking to think about the unreliable part, and to use the reliable thinking with regard to the objects of unreliable thinking. Maybe that would solve your problems,......... but thats no prescription but just a suggestion.

But you are ofcourse free to continue your specific conceptual framework to support your specific inner world of ideas.

This is what I've come to learn by practising what I understand to be the Buddhas path to awakening.

That is it.

I would suggest you start to learn to become aware of the essential difference between Siddhartha Gautama and Buddha.

Your remark: If you knew anything about Buddhism you'd know that Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha when he achieved enlightenment and anytime someone refers to "The Buddha" that's who they are referring to. Even in Mahayana circles where there are considered to be many other Buddha's Siddhartha Gautama is "The Buddha". just shows you have no awareness with regard to this difference.

Siddharth Gautama was the not enlighted one before he became the Buddha "the enlighted one"

I would say that is a difference, a quite importance difference.

When you are something and become some other thing, that in itself describes the difference.

You just make it some diffuse story, contributing the last part of someones life to be apllicable to the first part of someones life.

That is no clear healthy and logical thinking.

By the way you think and write van Gogh has been a famous painter all his life becos he became a famous painter at the end.

So I referred to Siddhartha Gautama (the then still unenlighted) as being the one looking for answers to the question, his questions in life, this in regard to me looking for answers to questions in life, my questions..

Then you answered the Buddha (the enlighted ) looked for direct knowledge by not just asking questions but by following the instructions and methodologies of the teachers of his day, he had to learn all they had to offer before he could be in a position to go beyond that.

This shows you are not aware about the difference and just hop over to a not direct related fact.

So, what is it that you are trying to achieve?

I'm trying to talk about Buddhism, why else would I log onto a Buddhist discussion board?

Out of clear logic healthy unrestricted thinking I not log in to just talk about Buddhism but to gain knowledge by this forum, to gain knowledge about and out of Buddhism, that is why my questions overhere are related to Buddhism and not to Bahai, Christianity, Islam or any other subject.

I shall answer your question "what I want to achieve" one more time for you to summarize and then it seems to me quite enough.

I want to gain knowledge.

[christiaan]

this : just shows you have no awareness with regard to this difference. should not be part of the green part, it was a typing error.

[christiaan]

One book that may satisfy you temporarily is Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha: An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book. I haven't read it myself but it reportedly contains detailed descriptions of progressive stages of practice and their results.

But reading the writings of an enlightened person about enlightenment is like watching their finger while they point at the moon.

You can ask questions ad infinitum, but to eat you'll have to cook for yourself. No one can cook it for you. They can only advise. There are many books and teachers out there full of advice on practice. Many of these books and teachers harbour far more knowledge than our humble ThaiVisa Buddhism forum community, I'm sure.

Even then, in terms of questions you think enlightenment might answer, I think it's safe to say that enlightenment isn't omniscience. 'Knowledge' is just concepts anyway, created by the mind interpreting form as perceived via the sense doors. The paramattha dhamma are the ultimate reality in Buddhism. One written source that attempts a detailed explanation:

http://www.buddhanet.../abhidhamma.pdf

Thank you very much for your contribution.

The core of my question is : I am interested to learn to know more about the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice?

So it is not especially to learn more about the meditation itself, since I know quite a lot about meditation and the practice of it, but to learn more about the knowledge with regard to the world, out of Buddhist practice.

But your contribution is valuable to gain more information about meditation.

[Brucenkhamen]

Well for you the question seems to be more or less thinking, - again you do not notice the difference in writing and so argueing - I do not write or argue out of quantity but out of quality.

That would be your opinion.

I’ve seen a lot of quantity, if there’s quality in there the quantity is burying it.

As I wrote, to me it is not about more or less thinking but about clear logical healthy unrestricted thinking.

I don’t doubt that that would be better than obscured illogical unhealthy thinking but I don’t believe in and of itself it can be the answer to the human condition. The Buddha would agree with me if the teachings passed down to us are anything to go by.

Very interesting to see thinking can be reliable in solving problems and so on but starts to be unreliable at some subjective point.

Well when that would be the case I would suggest you use the reliable part of your thinking to think about the unreliable part, and to use the reliable thinking with regard to the objects of unreliable thinking. Maybe that would solve your problems,......... but thats no prescription but just a suggestion.

I’m glad you found that interesting, and yes using the reliable part to work on the unreliable part is an important part of the process of enquiry into ones experience. But ultimately no part of human thinking is totally reliable until one has total clarity of mind and freedom from desire, aversion, and delusion.

But you are ofcourse free to continue your specific conceptual framework to support your specific inner world of ideas.

As are we all. Knowing it for what it is is the very important first step in awakening from it.

Siddharth Gautama was the not enlighted one before he became the Buddha "the enlighted one"

I would say that is a difference, a quite importance difference.

...Snippity snip...

This shows you are not aware about the difference and just hop over to a not direct related fact.

I’d be willing to bet that when I wrote “The Buddha looked for direct knowledge by not just asking questions but by following the instructions and methodologies of the teachers of his day “ 99% of readers knew exactly who I was referring to. If you want to play pedantic point scoring games up to you but you won’t achieve anything by it.

If I were to make a statement like “My wife went to Kon Kaen University” I assume you would correct me also on the basis that at that time she wasn’t my wife, ridiculous.

Out of clear logic healthy unrestricted thinking I not log in to just talk about Buddhism but to gain knowledge by this forum, to gain knowledge about and out of Buddhism, that is why my questions overhere are related to Buddhism and not to Bahai, Christianity, Islam or any other subject.

I shall answer your question "what I want to achieve" one more time for you to summarize and then it seems to me quite enough.

I want to gain knowledge.

People who want to gain knowledge usually ask a lot of questions, spend some time ruminating over them, then ask some more. A sure sign that somebody is gaining knowledge is when the later questions are much more informed and building on the earlier.

From what I’ve observed of your posts there has been a little bit of that and a whole lot of you rambling on about your philosophies on life and hoew because you are such a free thinker you don’t need to be bothered with the opinions of others. So no, I don’t buy it.

[christiaan]

The issue of this topic was not if you did or did not wanted to buy something from me.

Like it was not the question if I did or did not wanted to buy anything of you.

I not even have anything for sale.

The question of this topic was: what is the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice.

Beside your broad efforts , out of as you say 'unreliable thinking', to attack me personally about my attitude, not in the least showing your personal attitude, I think I have to understand in your opinion there is no knowledge to gain about the origin, the nature, the phenomena on, and the meaning, the future of the world.

When this is your answer it is your answer,

The sky is blue, the gras is green, your answer is your answer.

I did not ask for anything more it is very helpfull indeed..

So thank you for your points of view.

[christiaan]

To be precise I have to make a little correction, excuse me.

The issue of this topic was not if you did or did not wanted to buy something from me.

Like it was not the question if I did or did not wanted to buy anything of you.

I not even have anything for sale.

The question of this topic was: what is the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice.

Beside your broad efforts , out of as you say 'unreliable thinking', to attack me personally about my attitude, not in the least showing your personal attitude, I think I have to understand in your opinion there is no knowledge to gain about the origin, the nature, the phenomena on, and the meaning, the future of the world out of Buddhist practice.

When this is your answer it is your answer,

The sky is blue, the gras is green, your answer is your answer.

I did not ask for anything more it is very helpfull indeed..

So thank you for your points of view.

[Brucenkhamen]

So thank you for your points of view.

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You're welcome.

[rockyysdt]

The question of this topic was: what is the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice.

I think the fruits of Buddhist practice would be loving kindness for fellow man, animals & our environment.

It would also be the sharing of wealth & resource & knowledge.

There would be more , peace, tolerance & acceptance of fellow man.

There would be less greed, ignorance & selfishness, and less waste, hatred & destruction.

Knowledge and technical advancement of the world comes from science, physics & mathematics.

Appropriate implementation of these comes from spiritual advancement & through experiencing the truth.

Spiritual advancement and experience of truth cannot come from labels but through faithful practice.

Calling oneself a Buddhist is a label.

Actually practicing faithfully & regularly is the path.