Knowledge Out Of Bhuddist Wisdom And Enlightment

[christiaan]

The question of this topic was: what is the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice.

I think the fruits of Buddhist practice would be loving kindness for fellow man, animals & our environment.

It would also be the sharing of wealth & resource & knowledge.

There would be more , peace, tolerance & acceptance of fellow man.

There would be less greed, ignorance & selfishness, and less waste, hatred & destruction.

Knowledge and technical advancement of the world comes from science, physics & mathematics.

Appropriate implementation of these comes from spiritual advancement & through experiencing the truth.

Spiritual advancement and experience of truth cannot come from labels but through faithful practice.

Calling oneself a Buddhist is a label.

Actually practicing faithfully & regularly is the path.

Thanks for your answer, there is much into this I would see as a good observation.

For anyone following the essence of my contributions, my questions arise out of the fact that I do not see much of the fruits of Buddhism in Thailand as you describe here in your contribution.

[sabaijai]

The question of this topic was: what is the knowledge about the world out of Buddhist practice, where can I find this in general, what can people tell out of their own meditation practice.

I think the fruits of Buddhist practice would be loving kindness for fellow man, animals & our environment.

It would also be the sharing of wealth & resource & knowledge.

There would be more , peace, tolerance & acceptance of fellow man.

There would be less greed, ignorance & selfishness, and less waste, hatred & destruction.

Knowledge and technical advancement of the world comes from science, physics & mathematics.

Appropriate implementation of these comes from spiritual advancement & through experiencing the truth.

Spiritual advancement and experience of truth cannot come from labels but through faithful practice.

Calling oneself a Buddhist is a label.

Actually practicing faithfully & regularly is the path.

Thanks for your answer, there is much into this I would see as a good observation.

For anyone following the essence of my contributions, my questions arise out of the fact that I do not see much of the fruits of Buddhism in Thailand as you describe here in your contribution.

Do you see much of the fruits of Buddhism as described in any country? Imperfect people build imperfect societies. This applies to other major religions as well.

[Xangsamhua]

Do you see much of the fruits of Buddhism as described in any country? Imperfect people build imperfect societies. This applies to other major religions as well.

I was in Bhutan in October and felt that Buddhist values were evident there. I didn't see anyone argue or even look angry the five days my wife and I were in the country. People seemed to have genuine respect for the the Sangha (30% of the population is a monk or nun, I was told). There was plenty of evidence of devout practice, the country places "Gross National Happiness" before Gross National Product and - is this related to Buddhist values? - there were no clocks anywhere! Not in the hotel reception areas, not in the airport, not anywhere except one clock tower in downtown Thimphu.

These are just visitors' impressions, but I think Buddhist values are strongly and consciously held in Bhutan.

[christiaan]

Beside that, I understood this part of the forum is meant to be about Buddhism as a phenomenon in Thailand.

[Brucenkhamen]

I was in Bhutan in October and felt that Buddhist values were evident there. I didn't see anyone argue or even look angry the five days my wife and I were in the country. People seemed to have genuine respect for the the Sangha (30% of the population is a monk or nun, I was told). There was plenty of evidence of devout practice, the country places "Gross National Happiness" before Gross National Product and - is this related to Buddhist values? - there were no clocks anywhere! Not in the hotel reception areas, not in the airport, not anywhere except one clock tower in downtown Thimphu.

These are just visitors' impressions, but I think Buddhist values are strongly and consciously held in Bhutan.

Do you think it would be possible to apply these principles to much larger country with a diverse population?

[christiaan]

Searching on internet there is more to learn about - the history - of Bhutan.

It is estimated that between two thirds and three quarters of the Bhutanese population followVajrayana Buddhism, which is also the state religion. About one quarter to one third are followers of Hinduism. Muslim and non-religious communities account for less than 1% of the population.^[32] The current legal framework, in principle guarantees freedom of religion; proselytism, however, is forbidden by a royal government decision.^[32]

Lhotshampa (Nepali-speaking community), mainly based on southern Bhutan constituted of approx. 49% of population. However, during 1990s, after the Bhutanese government followed the policy of one language and one culture, these Lotshampas were forced to wear the national costume of Bhutan (?), which is not conducive to the high temperature region in South. Then, protest were started to this cultural discrimination (?), that led to eviction of more than 100,000 Lhotshampas. These Lhotshampas take refuge in Nepal via India. Those residing in Bhutan are still in threat from government. All the bilateral talks between Nepal and Bhutan to repatriate Bhutanese refugees (Lhotshampas) have been turned futile. Hence, now, UNHRC is helping the refugees to settle in various developed countries such as Norway, USA, Canada and many others.

Bhutan has a population of 691,141, predominantly Buddists, 100.000 Lhotsampas were evicted (?)

Since the late 1980s, over 100,000 Lhotshampa have been forced out of Bhutan, accused by the government of being illegal aliens. Between 1998-1993, thousands of others left alleging ethnic and political repression.^[1] In 1990, violent ethnic unrest and anti-government protests in southern Bhutan pressing for greater democracy and respect for minority rights.^[4] That year, the Bhutan Peoples' Party, whose members are mostly Lhotshampa, began a campaign of violence against the Bhutanese government.^[4] In the wake of this unrest, thousands fled Bhutan. Many of them have either entered Nepal's seven refugee camps (on January 20, 2010, 85,544 refugees resided in the camps^[1]) or are working in India. According to U.S. State Department estimates, about 35% of the population of Bhutan is Lhotshampa if the displaced refugees are counted as citizens.

More about the politic of Gross National Happiness

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affairs/Security-Watch/Detail/?ots591=4888caa0-b3db-1461-98b9-e20e7b9c13d4&lng=en&id=54065

[Brucenkhamen]

See http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/3382360/New-life-begins-for-Bhutanese-refugees

I guess these are some of the Lhotsampas. We've actually met some of them and they look much more ethnically Indian than I expected. I'm not sure why a country often held up as some kind of Buddhist utopia is causing refugees to flee the country but it makes you think.

[Xangsamhua]

See http://www.stuff.co....tanese-refugees

I guess these are some of the Lhotsampas. We've actually met some of them and they look much more ethnically Indian than I expected. I'm not sure why a country often held up as some kind of Buddhist utopia is causing refugees to flee the country but it makes you think.

I suggest the issue of the Lhotshampas in Eastern Bhutan is, though important in itself, a distraction in regard to whether Buddhist values are embedded among the majority population in most aspects of their daily lives. Most nations have an issue with minority peoples, whether the latter are indigenous or immigrant.

To bring the Nepalese into a discussion on Buddhism in Bhutan is like bringing the Tamil boat people into a discussion on the impact of democratic values on Australia. An important and sensitive issue but not really on the topic.

I was answering Sabaijai's question about Buddhism; not a different one about democracy, ethnic rights and nationality.

[christiaan]

You are right we should not look to Buddhism with regard to democracy, ethnic rights and nationality, allthough it is almost impossible Buddhism effects all of this.

We should however look how the Buddhist (?) people in power - government - within a Major Buddhist culture treat people and see if this Gross National Happiness is a reality, or an illusion enforced by the ego's inside a government.

Then we also have to be aware if this small Bhutan - there are 12 time more people living in Bangkok alone - is important in the power and money games of West and East to become as corrupt as some other country.

From the internet

.Bhutanese refugee crisisAlthough Bhutan is the member of the United Nations Organization (UNO), it is not adopting the norms of the international laws and international practices. In order to expand the autocratic wings of the regime, the government imposed cultural law, affecting entire community of population. Those unwilling to abide by cultural law faced with implementation of regimes depopulation policy using Citizenship Act initially affecting Lhotshampa population. The non-Lhotshampa population as well became victims of the policy as a result of their resistance of the ill vision policy. The Hindu religion, which existed in Bhutan from time immemorial, has been severely discriminated with ban on teaching of Nepali language in the schools thereby creating serious injustice in its age-old custom and culture.

Bhutanese King despite being a Buddhist himself and upholder of the other religions victimized Nyingmapa monks depriving their rights to practice institutionalized Dharma, including expulsion of His Holiness Dodrupchen Rinpoche, Chief of Nyingmapa in Eastern Bhutan and imprisonment of Chief Abbot Khenpo Thinley Oezer. Apparently, Sharchhokp and Ngalong communities too have become refugees and since been languishing in the camps in Nepal. The present census record of the refugees in the camps shows the figure of more then 106, 000, besides scores of unregistered refugees living outside the camps in Nepal and India.

Source: http://www.bhutanpeoplesparty.org/refugee/refugeecric.htm

[christiaan]

correction again.

You are right we should not look to Buddhism with regard to democracy, ethnic rights and nationality, allthough it is almost impossible Buddhism has no relations to what effects all of this. When it has not, then we maybe can assume insight and fruits of Buddhism are not present ?

We should however look how the Buddhist (?) people in power - government - within a Major Buddhist culture treat people and see if this Gross National Happiness is a reality, or an illusion enforced by the ego's inside a government.

[Brucenkhamen]

You are right we should not look to Buddhism with regard to democracy, ethnic rights and nationality, allthough it is almost impossible Buddhism has no relations to what effects all of this. When it has not, then we maybe can assume insight and fruits of Buddhism are not present ?

We should however look how the Buddhist (?) people in power - government - within a Major Buddhist culture treat people and see if this Gross National Happiness is a reality, or an illusion enforced by the ego's inside a government.

I think Buddhism does have an interest in social issues like democracy, ethnic rights, and nationality. There is evidence the Buddha (aka Gautama Siddhartha) was probably as much a social reformer as he was a spiritual teacher and criticised social inequality and the caste system.

However I'm not aware of any government founded on Buddhist principles, I thought Bhutan might be the closest thing but maybe not, I'm not aware of any devout practice oriented Buddhist in political power.

If you compare with a country like the USA where any Presidential candidate has to profess to be a practicing Christian to get elected I don't know that such occurs in nominally Buddhist countries.

[Xangsamhua]

You are right we should not look to Buddhism with regard to democracy, ethnic rights and nationality, allthough it is almost impossible Buddhism has no relations to what effects all of this. When it has not, then we maybe can assume insight and fruits of Buddhism are not present ?

We should however look how the Buddhist (?) people in power - government - within a Major Buddhist culture treat people and see if this Gross National Happiness is a reality, or an illusion enforced by the ego's inside a government.

However I'm not aware of any government founded on Buddhist principles, I thought Bhutan might be the closest thing but maybe not, I'm not aware of any devout practice oriented Buddhist in political power.

I suspect it still is, despite their unwilligness to cater for a Nepali speaking Hindu minority within their concept of citizenship. However, governments and societies are not static unless by decree, and that just sends dissent underground. So if Buddhism is a freely-chosen guide to life, and if one is not able to choose, but simply adopt or submit, then what is submitted to is only an external representation of Buddhism.

Being dynamic and unstable, majority views on any topic of social interest can change and be held with greater or lesser degrees of intensity. Governments in any democratic society have to respond to social trends and dominant interests; hence it is impossible to conduct the affairs of state consistently by any set of principles other than, perhaps, expediency. Hence there are no genuinely Buddhist states, or Christian ones for that matter. Islamic states are possible, though still subject to contradictions, because Islam is a totalising religion in which state and religious control merge and there is no real concept of the freely choosing individual (see Robert Reilly, The Closing of the Muslim Mind, ICS 2010).

Bhutan is now governed, since 2008, by elected majority parties. Of the 47 seats in parliament, 45 are held by the governing party and 2 by the Bhutan People's Democratic Party (not to be confused with the fringe Bhutan People's Party, from whose website Christiaan quoted above) . However the BPDP obtained a respectable 33% of the popular vote in the 2008 elections. which suggests that they have enough popular support to put pressure on the government and social change may result. This may impact on current Buddhist-inspired laws governing religious rights and prohibitions on hunting and fishing, for example, and the lure of economic prosperity may outweigh the official emphasis on less material forms of national happiness.

[IMA_FARANG]

Regarding knowledge...either in or out of the Buddist way....

To the enlightened person, what is there that does not speak of liberation?

So why would anyone fear knowledge?

[christiaan]

Only persons in a proces of enlightening can speak out of liberation, out of liberation of the selfish ego.

Beside the human there is nothing on earth speaking out of liberation.

Why people hide? Because they do not wish other people, even their own awareness , see the selfish limited side of their ego.

[lungmi]

Thanks for your answer, there is much into this I would see as a good observation.

For anyone following the essence of my contributions, my questions arise out of the fact that I do not see much of the fruits of Buddhism in Thailand as you describe here in your contribution.

Stupid rebound.

I practice the medicine of Jivaka Komarpaj (the doctor of the Buddha) , acouponcture and Tuina, all 2500 years old knowledge. And it still works. Your logic is: every doctor has to stop his work, because

all medicine cannot heal malaria, HIV, Hepatitis etc.

[lungmi]

Thanks for your answer, there is much into this I would see as a good observation.

For anyone following the essence of my contributions, my questions arise out of the fact that I do not see much of the fruits of Buddhism in Thailand as you describe here in your contribution.

Stupid rebound.

I practice the medicine of Jivaka Komarpaj (the doctor of the Buddha) , acuponcture and Tuina, all 2500 years old knowledge. And it still works. Your logic is: every doctor has to stop his work, because

all medicine cannot heal malaria, HIV, Hepatitis etc.

[christiaan]

Thanks for your answer, there is much into this I would see as a good observation.

For anyone following the essence of my contributions, my questions arise out of the fact that I do not see much of the fruits of Buddhism in Thailand as you describe here in your contribution.

Stupid rebound.

I practice the medicine of Jivaka Komarpaj (the doctor of the Buddha) , acuponcture and Tuina, all 2500 years old knowledge. And it still works. Your logic is: every doctor has to stop his work, because

all medicine cannot heal malaria, HIV, Hepatitis etc.

Christiaan:

I am not writing this.

Since you write this I would say this is more your logic to interprete my contribution the way you do.

So,....stupid rebound?

[healthcaretaker]

I HAVE the answers for the OP but after being very active in this forum tonight and having read many of the OP's posts in some other threads in this forum, I like to ask the OP a question before I give him or her the answers.

christiaan,

Are you a christian ? If you are one, are you prepared to give up christianity ?

You MUST give an honest answer to the above because your answer(s) will provide the right answers to your OP. (You need not reply openly here if you wish to keep it unknown to us BUT you still need to reply to yourself).

"IN ORDER FOR A CONTAINER TO HOLD SOME CLEAN WATER, WHETHER JUST A LITTLE OR FULL, IT MUST NOT CONTAIN ANY OTHER LIQUID OR SUBSTANCE THAT CAN DIRTY THE WATER"

[AYJAYDEE]

you are here to show off, period. . your questions are the means you use. you have already made up your mind about buddhism and you are asking these questions to generate opportunities to expound your philosophies.

Well, isn't it all about thinking? clear healthy thinking?

No specific Christian, no specific Islam, Bahai, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist thinking but just HUMAN thinking.

And overhere also with regard to Buddhism and not only out of Buddhism?

A thinking that is not limited.

No it isn't, because human thinking is not a reliable guide. Human thinking is distorted by desire, aversion, and delusion, by a conceptual framework that the mind constructs in order to relate to it's experience, and by which the mind interprets our experience. The trouble is the mind mistakes that construct for reality.

Well when this is human thinking in your life you are right for your self.

It is not my thinking and it is also not my thinking when you think you can try to prescribe me your thinking should be my thinking.

So the answer isn't more thinking but less, instead direct awareness direct and direct knowing of experience.

Well for you the question seems to be more or less thinking, - again you do not notice the difference in writing and so argueing - I do not write or argue out of quantity but out of quality.

As I wrote, to me it is not about more or less thinking but about clear logical healthy unrestricted thinking.

But before you say that means I'm anti thinking, proposing some kind of mindless Buddhism as if the world needed another mindless religion, thinking is a useful tool by which to solve problems and develop solutions and strategies. So understanding it's just a tool you use it as a tool rather than relying on it to be your guide to reality.

Very interesting to see thinking can be reliable in solving problems and so on but starts to be unreliable at some subjective point.

Well when that would be the case I would suggest you use the reliable part of your thinking to think about the unreliable part, and to use the reliable thinking with regard to the objects of unreliable thinking. Maybe that would solve your problems,......... but thats no prescription but just a suggestion.

But you are ofcourse free to continue your specific conceptual framework to support your specific inner world of ideas.

This is what I've come to learn by practising what I understand to be the Buddhas path to awakening.

That is it.

I would suggest you start to learn to become aware of the essential difference between Siddhartha Gautama and Buddha.

Your remark: If you knew anything about Buddhism you'd know that Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha when he achieved enlightenment and anytime someone refers to "The Buddha" that's who they are referring to. Even in Mahayana circles where there are considered to be many other Buddha's Siddhartha Gautama is "The Buddha". just shows you have no awareness with regard to this difference.

Siddharth Gautama was the not enlighted one before he became the Buddha "the enlighted one"

I would say that is a difference, a quite importance difference.

When you are something and become some other thing, that in itself describes the difference.

You just make it some diffuse story, contributing the last part of someones life to be apllicable to the first part of someones life.

That is no clear healthy and logical thinking.

By the way you think and write van Gogh has been a famous painter all his life becos he became a famous painter at the end.

So I referred to Siddhartha Gautama (the then still unenlighted) as being the one looking for answers to the question, his questions in life, this in regard to me looking for answers to questions in life, my questions..

Then you answered the Buddha (the enlighted ) looked for direct knowledge by not just asking questions but by following the instructions and methodologies of the teachers of his day, he had to learn all they had to offer before he could be in a position to go beyond that.

This shows you are not aware about the difference and just hop over to a not direct related fact.

So, what is it that you are trying to achieve?

I'm trying to talk about Buddhism, why else would I log onto a Buddhist discussion board?

Out of clear logic healthy unrestricted thinking I not log in to just talk about Buddhism but to gain knowledge by this forum, to gain knowledge about and out of Buddhism, that is why my questions overhere are related to Buddhism and not to Bahai, Christianity, Islam or any other subject.

I shall answer your question "what I want to achieve" one more time for you to summarize and then it seems to me quite enough.

I want to gain knowledge.

[camerata]

One post has been deleted because it was nothing but personal comments about another member. Try and stick to the topic, please.