Racism Alive And Well In Chiangmai

[Amras]

When I bought my motorcycle last spring I wanted to use my Bangkok Bank card for payment until they told me there would be a 2% surcharge which amounted to almost $45 for the convenience of using the card. Needless to say, I paid in cash.

Same as when I bought a new bike at Yamaha about 6 weeks ago. Wanted to charge an additional 2% as that's what their bank charges them as a merchant fee. So I just told them they had to wait a few days while I sorted out the cash.

It is legal to charge the customer ithe fee n Australia, although many only do it if you pay by Amex (or diners, if they accept it) as the merchant fee is much higher.

I was suprised that Robinson though was going to give me a discount if I bought a TV on credit card. :S Although it was Thai credit cards only. Quite suprised.

To the OP, was it the same individual who served you originally? Maybe they assumed you would have a foreign credit card, or the original person you delt with told you something not true (because they didn't know) and just 'took a stab'?

Either way, I'm sure you could have found another shop to buy your phone from quite easily.....

[Beetlejuice]

Maybe they meant there was no charge for a Thai credit card vs. a foreign card.

Perhaps it`s a bit of both.

The staff probably meant that there is some sort of fee for purchasing with a non Thai based credit/debit card.

The staff`s response to the OP was maybe given ths way because many Thais relate to farangs as being associated with everything alien and not Thai, even those farangs that have lived here for years. So technically the way the OP was addressed by the Thai staff is a form of racism through attitudes and ignorance.

[mrclough]

Check out Fabric night club. 300 baht for foreigners, nothing for Thai people!!!

Not to mention the 300 baht worth of drinks vouchers you get once you have paid

I think a lot of the reason they do this is to discourage the people who want to come in for free then buy one drink all night. Even the Thai businesses have overheads to cover !

If it makes it any better for you, you can go in the garden from 18:00 - 22:00 and drink draught Heineken for 150 baht for the entire 4 hours!

[jayjay0]

Sounds like standard operating procedure to me. I generally have to pay a 3% with my Canadian card except when I go to my bank they do it for free.

The other day I had to replace a old crown. I was told 3% under 2,000 baht no charge over that. Really have a hard time calling a sound business decision a racism issue. I am relatively sure a Thai would have to pay it with a foreign credit card. Not for sure on that item.:jap:

[SwaziBird]

To the best of my recollection there used to be a condition imposed by the Credit Card issuers ( Visa, Master etc. ) that their charge to the merchant was NOT permitted to be passed on to the customer ( card holder ). The abuse of this condition would render the merchant liable to having his facility withdrawn by the Card Company.

I am sure the card companies did not rush into enforcing this facility cancellation ( for obvious reasons ) - but, if this condition is still in place, then , indeed it theoretically puts the merchant at some form of risk.

But - there's not much choice really. It's cash or pay the extra or walk away.

[Ulysses G.]

They have been charging the customer the credit card fee for the last 20 years that I know of - in Thailand - and one can just pay cash to avoid it.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[uptheos]

They have been charging the customer the credit card fee for the last 20 years that I know of - in Thailand - and one can just pay cash to avoid it.

And yes, cash still rules...... whether you're Thai or farang, you will often get a deal for cash, but no way with CC.......though you might pay more.

[nikster]

thanks for all the replies.

for info;

i don't get the vat back i live here

the credit card was Thai not oversea

when i clarified if i would be charged for using the card they checked the card and my thai driving licence prior to saying that i would not be charged

when i went to pay i specifically noted it was due entirely to being farrang and it would be no charge if i was kun thai

and you bought it? living here, you should know wayyyyy better than to assume this had anything to do with race.

it didn't. it did have to do with the shop not wanting to make good on their promise to absorb the credit card costs. it's all business here, don't you know? at the same time, promising something, then not delivering on it is not unheard of. you were farang already when you initially asked about the surcharge, were you not? So why didn't they tell you then that you wouldn't get away without it? why pull the whole race thing at the very end? no reason, they just suddenly realized they couldn't or didn't want to give you the 2% discount.

what I usually end up doing is walk over to the ATM and get cash.

or just walk away (demand deposit back too, that in my experience works fine).

sbk- good info on the surcharge and being able to get it back from the cc company - I'll keep that in mind.

[nikster]

They have been charging the customer the credit card fee for the last 20 years that I know of - in Thailand - and one can just pay cash to avoid it.

Yet it is still a deep mystery to some...

By the way I much prefer this system. The credit card company takes their cut whether it's here or in the west. And guess who's paying for it back home. The merchant? No. It's you, only the cost is hidden, included in the price already. Here in Thailand you have a choice, and it's honest business.

Edited November 15, 2010 by nikster

[endure]

To the best of my recollection there used to be a condition imposed by the Credit Card issuers ( Visa, Master etc. ) that their charge to the merchant was NOT permitted to be passed on to the customer ( card holder ). The abuse of this condition would render the merchant liable to having his facility withdrawn by the Card Company.

This may be true in the USA but in the UK credit card companies are specifically enabled by law to pass on merchant charges. The only companies who actually do this are bucket shops selling cheap air tickets.

[mcgriffith]

Every country has different consumer protection laws regarding credit card (or debit card) purchases.

Yearly, I go to Bupa Thailand on Super Highway and pay a 50,000 + B total year premium with a credit card. They don't charge me one satang for this transaction. But I am dam_n sure to ask them every year if there is any charge for CC usage.

But if I go to Panthip and want to buy a widget with a card- yes 2% with some merchants.

As noted above, some merchants offer a cash price, and logically charge 2% more to cover merchant charges for CC customers. Other merchants just include the 2% into the cost for everyone....so the peep paying cash is being ripped off, paying a higher price.

It's not racism.

Just use cash if you can't communicate, or are unsure.

BTW, among other issues that Finance Minister Korn has addressed recently, this was one of them. He wants banks and merchants to clearly delineate all the charges and fees charged the consumer. For a Finance Minister in a center-right gov't, he has been hitting all the high notes, IMO. He wants to eliminate the nonsensical charging of fees for interprovincial check clearing. He's looking at the way banks here have up to 60% of net income from fees, not from lending. I could go on and on, but I won't...:sleepy:

Just ask. If in doubt, use cash.

[OldeBellPedr]

We accept credit cards at the Olde Bell with no added charge. We take the view that taking credit cards is part of the service.

[Contractor]

We accept credit cards at the Olde Bell with no added charge. We take the view that taking credit cards is part of the service.

Hi

Nice to hear, but do you insist on a minimum spend before accepting payment by credit card? I would.

Regards

[No1]

IMHO, racism has to do with genetics and ethnicity. The Thai nation comprises successfully far too many ethnicities to be racist.

Now, it could be some form of nationalism or profiteering. I used to get angry about that, but it is normal here to try to get out of their customer the max they could get. One "trick" is to tell a farang he is not Thai, and there is little to discuss or negotiate. So it is popular. When a Thai buys a phone, they will try something else. If you can't negotiate this fee and don't like the attitude of a shop keeper, do it like the Thais: excuse yourself, walk away and buy your stuff somewhere else.

I don't get upset anymore when I have to pay more to get into a National Park. I have many privileges here yet I don't pay taxes here. I can even ride a bike not wearing a helmet and pay only 200 BHT to a friendly policeman when I get caught. What a luxury! I wish they would treat me this kindly in Europe. Very often I feel treated better than the Thai and they give me more attention than to their Thai customers, which makes me feel ashamed.

Now, just recently I have seen a sign on the Central-store in Kad Suan Kaew: VAT return for tourists + 5% discount! How could a Thai think about that?

If you don't learn this lesson, you will be an angry old man one day.

[jackr]

To the best of my recollection there used to be a condition imposed by the Credit Card issuers ( Visa, Master etc. ) that their charge to the merchant was NOT permitted to be passed on to the customer ( card holder ). The abuse of this condition would render the merchant liable to having his facility withdrawn by the Card Company.

I am sure the card companies did not rush into enforcing this facility cancellation ( for obvious reasons ) - but, if this condition is still in place, then , indeed it theoretically puts the merchant at some form of risk.

But - there's not much choice really. It's cash or pay the extra or walk away.

Yes. They shouldn't be doing it, full stop. I haven't had this for many years now and any place that does try it on does not get my custom. You should have walked away op, but perhaps see about voiding the transaction with the bank. You may struggle beings as it's a Thai card, though... they'll probably say, This is Thailand, you need to pay charge.

[alant]

Technically, they are not allowed to do so but they all do it nonetheless.

Depends where your credit card comes from. It's a legal practice in the UK.

Op says hes American, I was told by my credit card company that they do not allow the charge to be passed on to the consumer and I could file with them to get it back if I wanted.

Where in the post does the OP say he's American??? He's from Burnley. In the north of England.

As you know Alan I live here also but I always claim the VAT back on things when I leave Swampy.

Thanks for the info, never thought of getting the vat back with living here although i would look to do it when coming from the uk to here.

[alant]

i certainly have learnt from the info in this, i did not know racism had to include hate, i thought it was a believe that one group is inherently different to another. basically tribalism++

on that basis i am not sure all racism is wrong and i think it may well be simply a natural protection function.

i don't really have a problem with 1 rule for Thai and one for non Thai as it is their country. maybe my home country would be better if it looked at the thai example.

was it racism? i though that the way it was expressed indicated it was but if i am wrong on that... well i learnt a little.

as for paying for the phone, i elected to request the return of my deposit which had already been promised due to the late supply of the item and cancel the transaction. one of the girls in the shop then demonstrated a degree of management potential and made the decision that as i was sort of thai and paid the same as thais to go places like national parks and the zoo i also qualified for the no charge on credit cards so i paid the agreed sum, by card, no additional 2%.

if you are wondering why i posted this then as i didn't end up paying the 2%, i think it is worth people knowing this happens, no point if getting upset about it. it has certainly made me think a little about what is racism.

[NancyL]

I've never encountered this 2% charge here with my U.S. -issued Visa credit card and I've lived here full-time for two years. We routinely use the card at Tops, Rim Ping, Ram, Bumrungrad, AIS, and sometimes at IT City and Sports World in KSK. About half our monthly budget goes thru this credit card. The biggest problem is that sometimes they want to charge in U.S. dollars, not Thai baht and the exchange rate is much worse than what our credit card company gives us. I always ask them to charge in Thai baht and if they ask me to sign a receipt with U.S. dollars mentioned anywhere on the receipt then I politely ask them to void that transaction and re-do it in Thai baht. Sometimes a supervisor has to get involved, but I'm always patient and kind, but firm. I've never had to walk away from a transaction.

The credit card company does impose a 1% foreign transaction fee, but that's not going to the merchant.

We'd never use the card at a restaurant or small shop. Too much risk of the staff abusing it. Also, I monitor our account daily on-line for unauthorized activity.

I've been very pleased with the service from our American-issued Visa card. Twice we've filed dispute claims with them and received refunds -- once when Nok Air cancelled service between CM-CR after we'd booked a trip and the second time for the CMU CEP fiasco.

[OldeBellPedr]

We accept credit cards at the Olde Bell with no added charge. We take the view that taking credit cards is part of the service.

Hi

Nice to hear, but do you insist on a minimum spend before accepting payment by credit card? I would.

Regards

No, contractor, we have no minimum charge for using your credit card. The card companies charge us 2%, so whether its 2% of 100 baht or 2% of 10,000 baht, the percentage is the same. I never did understand why some establishments impose a minimum charge.

[Tokay]

I don't know if the laws have changed but I used to own a brick and mortar business in the USA and we were told by Visa that it is ILLEGAL to add any charge at all for credit card users. They considered it a penalty for using their card and said they can terminate your merchant account over it.

If that is the current law or if they even care about Thailand, no idea, but I'm always charged more when I use my American CC.

[hml367]

In my experience I cannot remember ever being charged more for using my U.S. issued credit card in Thailand. I am not saying it isn't done... it just hasn't happened to me. If it is done, I think it probably has more to do with ecomics than race.

MSPain

I don't know if the laws have changed but I used to own a brick and mortar business in the USA and we were told by Visa that it is ILLEGAL to add any charge at all for credit card users. They considered it a penalty for using their card and said they can terminate your merchant account over it.

If that is the current law or if they even care about Thailand, no idea, but I'm always charged more when I use my American CC.

Edited November 18, 2010 by hml367

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Can we edit out the reference to racism in the title? That just makes no sense at all regardless on anyone's position on the credit card business.

[alant]

Can we edit out the reference to racism in the title? That just makes no sense at all regardless on anyone's position on the credit card business.

hi wtk

if tv think it is inappropriate i would be happy for it to go although i would point out that whilst the post has gone in many directions the original point was that the charge was being levied for 1 reason and one reason only, i am farrang not thai. this was made very clear in the shop.

of course there are differing definitions of racism and i wasnt particularly offended it is just something that people that live of perhaps more importantly are visiting the area may experience.

ps didnt pay the 2%, they decided after some debate i was sort of kun Thai.

Edited November 18, 2010 by alant

[hml367]

What is "kun Thai" ?

MSPain

[LJW]

I don't know if the laws have changed but I used to own a brick and mortar business in the USA and we were told by Visa that it is ILLEGAL to add any charge at all for credit card users. They considered it a penalty for using their card and said they can terminate your merchant account over it.

If that is the current law or if they even care about Thailand, no idea, but I'm always charged more when I use my American CC.

It is still current law in the USA, but in Thailand, if you are charged any extras, make a note of it and report it to your credit card company and you will get reimursed, no problem

[alant]

What is "kun Thai" ?

MSPain

ly a very poor way of trying to say Thai person, oh well

[CMFarang]

The credit card thing has been going on for years here in Chiang Mai .. Was normally 3% years ago..

I applied for a Credit Card Machine when I had a shop on Tai Pae Road, and I was told there would be a 3% charge for every transaction , Plus a Monthly charge to have the Visa Machine. I opted out...

Now I just transfer Funds onto my credit card ( Internet Banking ) , wait a few days , then go to the bank and withdraw Cash.. It feels much better than the Card , and I get a better exchange rate this way ..

I have seen credit card details used by Vendors and their Staff ( unknown to the Vendor ) to make purchases fraudulently.. Beware..

Pulling out a Gold Vise is foolish as well , Even the Locals understand what they are .

I have a Visa Gold , Issued on a Standard Credit Card , and use it as little as possible.. AND I know there is going to be a service charge...

On Rascism - I have a Thai wife ( A LOVELY PERSON ) and when I have her phone to make Air Flight Reservations for 2 , she gets a Quoted Price..

When she submits the names , then things get uncomfortable for the Airline Sales Rep. , who now tells her my flight will cost more than the Quoted Price for the foreigner, because I am not Thai.. This was stopped years ago by the Airlines , BUT I am pleased to announce it is back and alive and well.

I live here , I know when I am being over charged , and I make a decision whether I am going to pay or walk away. That simple..

Try getting a Song Thew ( Red Taxi ) and get a Local Price... So many people are willing to pay the asked price, it makes it next to impossible for me to get a taxi at the Local Price.

I ate in a Restaurant the other night with friends, and when we were charged above the menu price ( it was written in Thai ) , they were clever enough to say they made it with special ingredients , as not to upset out tender Tummies.. I paid , will not return , and that is the end of story..

I enjoy walking past a store and telling my friends ( so as the shop keeper can hear me ) that the shop charges extra for Farang Customers , and not to bother with that particular shop.. Maybe one day they will change , but there is NO LAW against Discrimination here. Don't sweat it, TIT , the people are great , Food excellent , and they get a BONUS Customer every now and then. Play the BONUS or not , up to you, BUT that is how it is , DEAL WITH IT ..

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It's not racism because it applies to anyone insisting of using a credit card.

Credit card companies screw the vendor, and in some countries vendors either swallow it or add enough margin for everyone else who's not paying with a credit card to cover for it.

Thailand is often different when it comes to mom and pop shops.

You are experiencing communication issues, not racism.

[alant]

It's not racism because it applies to anyone insisting of using a credit card.

Credit card companies screw the vendor, and in some countries vendors either swallow it or add enough margin for everyone else who's not paying with a credit card to cover for it.

Thailand is often different when it comes to mom and pop shops.

You are experiencing communication issues, not racism.

but if so why was there no charge for Thai people? the shop clearly said if i was Thai no charge for using the credit card but as a farrang there was a 2% charge, is it that the credit card companies will charge farrangs but not Thais?

[jayjay0]

Just had a long conversation with the vet. He said this horse is dead.