California man thrown out of San Diego airport for refusing full-body scan, pat down

[Credo]

A good sociopath would not be tripped up by an indepth questioning. I also don't particularly like answering a long list of probing questions about my journey. A well-motivated bomber likely wouldn't either. A drug mule, on the other hand, would. But the last one doesn't scare me much.

The level of effectiveness of security measures is partially based on the fact that the people designing the devices may be quite bright, but the ones who are detonating them aren't the smartest group (as a general rule--9/11 probably being the exception). As long as authorities can catch those doing test runs on what they can get by with, they can stay one step ahead of them and hopefully discourage them to the point where they will eventually decide airplanes aren't the best target--and by the way, they aren't. They are just one of the scarier targets.

[Jingthing]

A good sociopath would not be tripped up by an indepth questioning.

In depth is not actually the Israeli questioning technique. A percentage are selected for more intense screening. Most aren't. You can't argue with their success. They also of course maintain vast databases on individuals (again not profiling per se, much more individual). These scanners won't find ANYTHING of value. What happens when the next incident involves an anal hide? Guess. It is pure theater. Mindless profiling doesn't work either. There are easy workarounds for the villains, recruit blond terrorists. People ask if there is any alternative. Yes, there is. The Israeli model.

BTW -- most of the current TSA screeners don't have the potential to be trained to be high level psychological screeners. They currently employ mostly uneducated, low skill people.

[Scott]

Jingthing: Just out of curiosity, what are the number of people screened by the Israelis compared to the US? Do you think that model could work on a country the size of the US? And what is the cost?

[Jingthing]

Jingthing: Just out of curiosity, what are the number of people screened by the Israelis compared to the US? Do you think that model could work on a country the size of the US? And what is the cost?

I don't know. It's worth investigating anyway. The machines are expensive also, yes? Isn't the real goal the BEST security? That's my real point. The machines give the false impression of real security, but can't deliver it. It's like we don't trust skilled human beings anymore. Would you want the actual airplanes to rely on automatic controls only to be flown?

The road to mass anal (and vaginal for that matter) probes and people accepting it is clear now. Where does it stop? How do you think people are going to react when children are forced to undergo humiliating examinations en masse? Given the mindless security mentality in effect now, how else can the TSA react if there is even ONE found incident of explosives being concealed in body cavity? The pattern is clear. Look how they reacted to ONE incident with a shoe.

[sbk]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/tsa-sees-sanitary-napkins-body-scans/

By David Edwards

TSA sees sanitary napkins in naked body scans

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) now admits that airport scanners that can see through clothes to create images of the naked body can also detect sanitary napkins.

New York Times reporter Joe Sharkey wrote that he was getting a lot of question from women who travel in a little noticed article Monday.

"Do the imagers, for example, detect sanitary napkins?" women wanted to know. "Yes," wrote Sharkey.

"Does that then necessitate a pat-down? The T.S.A. couldn’t say. Screeners, the T.S.A. has said, are expected to exercise some discretion."

"And what about tampons?" asked the blog Feminist Peace Network. "They look kind of like sticks of dynamite. Are they going to ask us to pull them out and show them just to be sure?"

Some Americans are outraged at the idea that the TSA has the right to touch their private parts in the pat-down process.

On man trying to board a plane at San Diego International Airport threatened to have a screener arrested.

"If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested," the man, who blogs as Johnny Edge, said to agents.

"I felt what they were doing was a sexual assault, and that if they were anyone but the government, the act would be illegal," Edge wrote.

But travelers may have good reason to avoid the scanners. A group of scientists warned Friday that the scanning process may actually be dangerous.

"They say the risk is minimal, but statistically someone is going to get skin cancer from these X-rays," Dr Michael Love, who runs an X-ray lab at the department of biophysics and biophysical chemistry at Johns Hopkins University school of medicine, told AFP.

"No exposure to X-ray is considered beneficial. We know X-rays are hazardous but we have a situation at the airports where people are so eager to fly that they will risk their lives in this manner," he said.

One website is urging travelers to "opt out" from the body scanners and instead choose to have a pat-down in public view, so that everyone can "see for themselves how the government treats law-abiding citizens."

OptOutDay.com declares November 24 to be the day when air travelers should refuse to submit to a full body scan and choose the enhanced pat-down -- an option many travelers have described as little short of a molestation.

The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg even suggested that travelers forgo underpants and wear kilts so that screeners could share in their embarassment.

[lannarebirth]

Jingthing: Just out of curiosity, what are the number of people screened by the Israelis compared to the US? Do you think that model could work on a country the size of the US? And what is the cost?

I don't know. It's worth investigating anyway. The machines are expensive also, yes? Isn't the real goal the BEST security? That's my real point. The machines give the false impression of real security, but can't deliver it. It's like we don't trust skilled human beings anymore. Would you want the actual airplanes to rely on automatic controls only to be flown?

The road to mass anal (and vaginal for that matter) probes and people accepting it is clear now. Where does it stop? How do you think people are going to react when children are forced to undergo humiliating examinations en masse? Given the mindless security mentality in effect now, how else can the TSA react if there is even ONE found incident of explosives being concealed in body cavity? The pattern is clear. Look how they reacted to ONE incident with a shoe.

You've got it all wrong. The REAL goal is to award large government contracts to companies that give large enough campaign contributions.. You're witnessing, in it's latest manifestation, what Ike warned about.

It was semi tolerable when we only did it to dark skinned disadvantaged people overseas, but apparently there's more money in doing it to ourselves. Hopefully it will drive the Dow higher.

[Jingthing]

You've got it all wrong. The REAL goal is to award large government contracts to companies that give large enough campaign contributions.. You're witnessing, in it's latest manifestation, what Ike warned about.

It was semi tolerable when we only did it to dark skinned disadvantaged people overseas, but apparently there's more money in doing it to ourselves. Hopefully it will drive the Dow higher.

I agree with you, but the real goal SHOULD be real security.

[Ulysses G.]

What works is what the Israelis do.

I can't believe that you agree with Glen Beck on something. That is what his show is about today (that and the Spooky Dude). Admit the truth, you are really a secret fan!

Is that you in the red shirt?

[Jingthing]

I admit it. I agree with Glenn Beck on a few issues, but for the most part feel he is a dangerous demagogue.

This shouldn't be a real surprise. Any political pragmatist will find some good things about the opposition. I have always been a Grade A Bush basher, but have repeatedly praised him for his response to the financial meltdown near the end of his administration. He did what needed to be done in a crisis even though it went against his ideology, that is a great thing.

[Ulysses G.]

I admit it. I agree with Glenn Beck...

I have no doubt that you agree about the Spooky Dude. There are rumors that he is funding Nancy Polosi for her 2012 White-house run.

[lannarebirth]

I admit it. I agree with Glenn Beck...

I have no doubt that you agree about the Spooky Dude. There are rumors that he is funding Nancy Polosi for her 2012 White-house run.

Perhaps a Pelosi vs. Palin election?

Pray for meteors. Big ones.

[Ulysses G.]

I would have to join the Weather Underground.

[endure]

Before an argument ensues, Islam is a religion, not a race, and nobody's religion is written on any travel document, so let's pick a different solution.

That's true. So let's profile people who look Middle Eastern.

The most populous Islamic country by quite a way is Indonesia.

[Ulysses G.]

Before an argument ensues, Islam is a religion, not a race, and nobody's religion is written on any travel document, so let's pick a different solution.

That's true. So let's profile people who look Middle Eastern.

And maybe people from Muslim countries known for frequent terrorist activities?

[geriatrickid]

Air India - Canada.

Google that aircraft bombing. Not muslims, but Sikhs fighting other Sikhs and non-Sikhs. It has cost the Canadian government tens of millions of $ and left hundreds of families traumatized. One would think that Sikhs who form the backbone of the Indian military establishment and a noble history of loyal service to India, would be low risk, but that didn't stop a group of madmen from setting off bombs.

I will be opting for the intimate patdowns over the xray machines, It's been done for over a decade in the Phillippines and in India, so it isn't anything unexpected for me. I am not a big fan of additional radiation that adds to our annual radiation exposure. In the health sciences we are taught that less is better when it comes to radiation. For frequent flyers it will matter because they have higher exposures to "natural" sources once they get up in the air and log the hours.

I'm sorry but the Israeli methodologies can't work for heavy volume airports. Too many PAX. As for profiling, it might work to a certain extent, but is it fair to classify a person with the name Mohammed as a terrorist? What if he is employed by HM government and is 3rd generation Orkney? At this time the Yemen and Somalia communities have threatened the Canadian government with a multi million dollar human rights lawsuit because of the enhanced screening procedures from PAX flying on those passports. What are governments supposed to do? Suspend all civil rights laws?

We all know the screening procedures are an expensive waste of time for most of us, but until there is another viable solution, we have to accept this situation. As I wrote before, new explosive device screeners will be deployed by 2012 s liquids will soon be allowed back and this will relieve alot of the headaches. Given the choice of an extra 30 minutes in line or dying in a bpmb blast, I'll take the line up please. even if the risk is only 1%, I think my life is worth the extra measures. If there are those who don't agree, well, no one is forcing you to fly on a commercial aircraft that you neither own nor control. Hire your own jet and run around the cabin naked for all I care.

[MAJIC]

Personally I'm glad Security has been tightened up to ridiculous lengths,at Airports.

I can recall landing at Heathrow,and sitting in the Coffee shop,with two other men,who had suitcases alongside them,one was reading a Newspaper and the other was looking away,just the 3 of us,at the table.

Then they both got up, as if in tandom,and walked away,I looked around,expecting them to come back for the cases,

after a few minutes,I went to the information desk and told them about the left suitcases,they said, they would call Security,and would I go back to the Coffee shop and wait for Security?

I went back,the suitcases were still there, and I waited 20 minutes more,whilst hiding behind the large pillars there,and no one came.

Later I heard the terrible news, from a Taxi driver at my local train station....... that day was 9/11.

[flying]

I agree with you, but the real goal SHOULD be real security.

The real security could start with removing the reason/backlash we now need so much security

[koheesti]

I agree with you, but the real goal SHOULD be real security.

The real security could start with removing the reason/backlash we now need so much security

What backlash are you talking about? YouTube is slow where I am.

[flying]

What backlash are you talking about? YouTube is slow where I am.

Well it is a simple guess......Backlash for our actions that in turn make us a target.

You don't really believe that old cliche ....they hate us for our freedoms do you?

"The Sad thing is our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Romes did,

when all budgetary & monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted".

Too bad we cannot realize that now instead of bankrupting our country to learn it.

Sorry about your slow internet....Would think Dubai of all places does quite well.

[Spee]

You've got it all wrong. The REAL goal is to award large government contracts to companies that give large enough campaign contributions.. You're witnessing, in it's latest manifestation, what Ike warned about.

I agree with you, but the real goal SHOULD be real security.

You're both right and both wrong.

What has happened with Dept of HS and the subordinate TSA is an explosion in the government bureacracy. The TSA is booming especially because most of the people are union, and government unions vote almost entirely democrat right down the line. The government contracts to companies who sell security screening equipment is peanuts compared to the salary, benefits and retirement pensions from civil service union contracts. Couple that with the increased amount of government staffers to run and maintain background and security cleareance checks, it's just that much more of self-sustaining activity.

The real goal is not security. The real goal is wiping out the bad guys, and doing so at the source, not in the home front. All of these intrusive searches are meaningless because the horse is already out of the barn. That is, if the bad guys are already inside taking domestic flights, then the security process has already failed and failed miserably.

It's the difference between a reactive response and a proactive response. Reactive response against those who would make murderous terror is useless. Proactive response means the bad guys are too busy getting killed before they can cause mayhem, or too busy trying to avoid getting killed to spend time planning mayhem.

Put another way, having a gun in the house for self-defense against intruders, should be the last line of defense rather than the first. If a bad guy has already broken and entered, many and most potential precautionary steps have already failed.

Airport profiling of the relative few is the obvious course of action, rather than abusing and inconveniencing the broad masses of travelers.

[kpmsprtd]

I've been e-mailing the senators and congressmen who are speaking out against this madness, thanking them for their efforts. Somehow it seems important that we all contact our elected representatives at this time.

The whole idea that 4 out of 5 Americans approve of these measures seems bogus as only 1 out of 5 Americans flies regularly. A real poll would ask only regular fliers. (Substitute your own country's terms in place of "senators", "congressman", "Americans", etc.)

[doggie888888]

I've been e-mailing the senators and congressmen who are speaking out against this madness, thanking them for their efforts. Somehow it seems important that we all contact our elected representatives at this time.

The whole idea that 4 out of 5 Americans approve of these measures seems bogus as only 1 out of 5 Americans flies regularly. A real poll would ask only regular fliers. (Substitute your own country's terms in place of "senators", "congressman", "Americans", etc.)

I wonder if these politicians, who have seen fit to allow these measures to be applied to the common folk, have exempted themselves from similar scans and pat-downs?

[Lancelot]

I know that TSA has a job to do; however, some of the officers are out of control.

My last trip to the US I cleared Immigration in Chicago. I noticed a disturbance ahead of me and started listening. A TSA guy was requesting photo ID and the lady produced one. Then, the TSA agent started screaming, "This drivers licenese is expired! I want a PHOTO ID!"

<deleted>, the ladies appearance changed that much? Some of these guys would struggle to flip burgers at McDonalds but they can qualify as TSA agents to "Serve and Protect?"

Naa, more than a few are puffed up idiots intent on showing their authority at every opportunity

[jazzbo]

From Mr. No-Fly-Zone: Glad to hear most can see past the smoke & mirrors that have the sheeple bleating

So when you -- like the South Dakota kid -- refuse all those invasive body searches next time you and the wife try to visit Thailand and are denied boarding, you can visit here: