Travel Topic Of The Moment -- Naked Body Scanners And Invasive Pat Downs

[Jingthing]

There are tens of millions of American unemployed people right now, many of them quite well educated. I am sure it wouldn't be very hard to recruit potential staff that could do more sophisticated security jobs, if the decision was made. Obviously, a transition to more intelligent security couldn't happen overnight though.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[NovaBlue05]

The nineteen 9/11 hijackers were in the US legally using visas and drivers licenses issued by the US government. They didn't have to sneak in. The whole thing on 9/11 probably wouldn't have went down as it did had the cockpit doors been secured with something as simple as a $2 lock from Home Depot. The people in charge of airport/airline security were clearly lazy and apathetic regarding risk of hijacking. It appears that simple due diligence would have sufficed.

Nine years later, the US has invaded two countries, contributed to countless deaths, spent a trillion $$$$ and created another huge layer of un-needed bureaucracy (250K employees) in the DHS. All this and..at the end of the day...the Govt can do nothing more than sit there with their fingers crossed waiting for their next cue from the (hopefully) failed effort of the next amateur suspect. They then spring into action with another new and un-original kneejerk reaction. Maybe they should just let the Israelis school them on how to keep bad guys off airplanes and then hire real professionals to administer a similar program suitable to the US airport volumes.

I fly to Thailand out of Dulles in 2 weeks and I hope that the public uproar after a huge air travel holiday next week causes this effort to be scaled down.

[PhilHarries]

There's a simple answer to all this; put travellers into two distinct groups.

Group 1, those that object strongly to the new procedures. These are required to show up at the airport 4 hours before departure, go through all of Jingthing's "sophisticated" profiling, sniffed by dogs (the muzzies will love that but better if they used pigs), data base mining and Israeli style interrogation.

Group 2, those that go with the flow. These turn up an hour before departure, saunter through and are met by a lovely hostess, or host should they be of that persuation, and handed a large vodka tonic, or whatever they fancy, as they make their way to the departure lounge.

Simples

Of course we have the usual bunch of so called radical thinkers that spout off about how this all achieves nothing and is a complete waste of time. These people have the luxury of sounding off in an anonymous forum having absolutley no responsibility for anything save their next bottle of Chang. They will never have to explain to the relatives of the deceased why they got it so wrong when the inevitable happens.

[ronz28]

I will take the scanner any day over what's going on in the pat down line....

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/chase-e1.1.1.html

[mark45y]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

Maybe that's because it's more applicable to interstate travel?? It's also hysterical how people how live in a country in Europe smaller then the state of Texas for example and may travel to say Germany thinking they are such world travelers when that's really just like traveling from say Texas to California in terms of size and distance. Those 2 states alone have a cultural diversity that trumps most countries in Europe..

They just can't grasp the concept that Americans can happily live their entire life within the U.S. borders and experience every type of weather, geography, culture diversity and beauty all in one country for those who seek to poke sticks it comes down more to envy then anything else.. But yet they consider themselves 'worldly' rather foolishly in spite of not understanding this basic premise.

That's not to say that traveling out of one's country is not rewarding but for Americans just not a need in order to experience those things as it is in most other countries as much as a choice for Americans.

France is one of the largest countries in Europe and they are smaller than Texas. Most are much smaller. Up until recent years, you also had the option to go into Canada or Mexico without passport requirements. That covers a good chunk of territory.

San Antonio is like going to Mexico without the crime, filth and diarrhea. You can speak Spanish in San Antonio or English no problem.

Quebec city is like going to Paris without the Algerians. Speaking English or French works fine.

I like Victoria BC better than England for British ambiance.

All in all Canadians make a decent substitute for British and French people and South Texas people for Spanish people works for me.

Chinese, go to China town in San Francisco. 31% of the population of San Francisco is Asian. Yes you can get locally produced Chinese language newspapers. Language? Speak Chinese or English . No problem. Food is a lot better than China.

Could the pat down thing change American travel habits? Sure. It is not that much of a problem to drive to Florida when it gets cold up north. NY to FL is only 20 or so hours by car. When you add up the waiting time at the airport and the security time and the cost. Driving becomes an option. Miami is just like Cuba if you get a yen for Cuban food or beautiful angry women.

[sarahsbloke]

Could the pat down thing change American travel habits? Sure. It is not that much of a problem to drive to Florida when it gets cold up north. NY to FL is only 20 or so hours by car. When you add up the waiting time at the airport and the security time and the cost. Driving becomes an option. Miami is just like Cuba if you get a yen for Cuban food or beautiful angry women.

off topic

My Canadian rellys have been driving from Ontario to Florida every winter for the last xx years.

Never liked flying and enjoy journey

[mark45y]

Could the pat down thing change American travel habits? Sure. It is not that much of a problem to drive to Florida when it gets cold up north. NY to FL is only 20 or so hours by car. When you add up the waiting time at the airport and the security time and the cost. Driving becomes an option. Miami is just like Cuba if you get a yen for Cuban food or beautiful angry women.

off topic

My Canadian rellys have been driving from Ontario to Florida every winter for the last xx years.

Never liked flying and enjoy journey

Plus there is some deal about Canadians buying used cars in Florida (tax break or something). I think the Canadians would stay there all year except the for the health care requirement.

I am not like most Americans. I've spent too much time in Pattaya to mind anyone patting my crotch. Rough or not it would certainly not be a shock to me.

When they got to my “junk” I'd just wink at em.

I have four daughters. Two are like me and two like their mother. The two that are like me would just laugh it off. The two that are like mom would freak out.

Americans might do well to spend a little more money at home right now. Maybe the administration is counting on the TSA to encourage domestic vacations. More auto travel means more cars purchased and maintained. More local jobs and so on.

[jdinasia]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

That's very illogical. Americans travel a lot on airplanes whether they leave the country or not. As far as taking an unscientific survey on an internet forum as strong evidence of anything, I've got a Pattaya beer bar to sell you, you sound like a good prospect ...

In any case, it is clear that lots of people who do fly don't like the new (and some of the old policies) policies very much, whether it's the majority or not isn't really the issue, the issue is are the measures fully necessary and/or are there better methods. We don't have majority votes on TSA procedures, but strong public opinion can have an impact on them.

hmmmmm You use reactionary statements by a minority (such as the "you touch my junk...." and it makes sense, I point out that people that actually DO travel seem to, if not welcome, at least, tolerate and understand that the world has changed and that air travel on a common carrier is not a God given right

As for TSA guidelines ... a few people are reactionary and when they end up detained for violating the screening process ... well.....

As for your other posts about profiling and Isreali type interrogations ...... Yeah! That's MUCH more in line with the freedoms promised by the US constitution! Frankly, if you are crying about loss of civil liberties but are willing to subject the citizens of a nation to that ... then you are certainly using a strange standard of what is fair and equal treatment under the law.

[dantilley]

I don't see what all the fuss is about these "naked" scanners.

1. They're not really naked images the person sees, it's just a white-on-black featureless outline of your body, that looks more like an x-ray image. OK, you can see your body outline but it's not like the cameras remove your clothes and you're suddenly appearing on the monitors in your birthday suit in full glorious technicolor. It's no more "naked" than wearing a tight fitting swimsuit is.

2. These images aren't even viewed in the same room that you're being scanned in, someone sitting in a separate room sees a procession of body outlines and has no idea which outline belongs to which person, facial features can barely be recognised and he/she will never actually see the person to whom the body outline belongs. It's not some guy sitting 3 feet away from you leering as you walk through and get scanned.

3. All images are instantly deleted as soon as they're viewed. The recent scandals about people mocking people's scans came from tests of the system - when used in real life, no images are kept for more than a few seconds.

[Lantern]

There is a lot of anger out there though.

TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

http://www.schneier.com/

From the article.

There's talk about the health risks of the machines, but I can't believe you won't get more radiation on the flight. Here's some data:

A typical dental X-ray exposes the patient to about 2 millirems of radiation. According to one widely cited estimate, exposing each of 10,000 people to one rem (that is, 1,000 millirems) of radiation will likely lead to 8 excess cancer deaths. Using our assumption of linearity, that means that exposure to the 2 millirems of a typical dental X-ray would lead an individual to have an increased risk of dying from cancer of 16 hundred-thousandths of one percent. Given that very small risk, it is easy to see why most rational people would choose to undergo dental X-rays every few years to protect their teeth.

More importantly for our purposes, assuming that the radiation in a backscatter X-ray is about a hundredth the dose of a dental X-ray, we find that a backscatter X-ray increases the odds of dying from cancer by about 16 ten millionths of one percent. That suggests that for every billion passengers screened with backscatter radiation, about 16 will die from cancer as a result.

Given that there will be 600 million airplane passengers per year, that makes the machines deadlier than the terrorists.

Lots more info and well worth a look.

[dantilley]

I've heard of statistics being twisted to fit an agenda, but this is taking it to new levels!

[jobsworth]

Why not just allow passengers to take off their clothes

like a strip search in a US prison?

Passengers don't like the machines because of the possibility of cancer.

Passengers don't like the pat downs because of the inappropriate touching.

In US prisons there is little touching.

There is no time when there are so many people.

Passengers could be instructed in how to display themselves.

As has already been stated,

the terrorists must be laughing because the present procedures

are a blow for freedom against the great Satan.

[Jingthing]

Why not just allow passengers to take off their clothes

like a strip search in a US prison?

Passengers don't like the machines because of the possibility of cancer.

Passengers don't like the pat downs because of the inappropriate touching.

In US prisons there is little touching.

There is no time when there are so many people.

Passengers could be instructed in how to display themselves.

As has already been stated,

the terrorists must be laughing because the present procedures

are a blow for freedom against the great Satan.

There was on item on US tv suggesting people voluntarily approach security in their underwear only (as a protest of course). Even Obama commented on all this on tv from Lisbon, pro TSA of course, what else could he do? It's definitely all the buzz. Interesting to see how this develops.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[473geo]

Something for the proletariat to get wound up about.........diverts them from the real economic issues......government will be pleased to keep this important issue right at the top of the news......more air time the better.....

[WarpSpeed]

I will take the scanner any day over what's going on in the pat down line....

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/chase-e1.1.1.html

Yep, good cop, bad cop, that's what they're hoping for..

[Jingthing]

It now appears the TSA HAS caved to public protests. Not details yet, but a definite change in the tone of the statements. That was fast. Bravo!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/21/AR2010112101224.html?hpid=topnews

TSA chief: Screening should be minimally invasive

By JIM ABRAMS

The Associated Press

Sunday, November 21, 2010; 4:36 PM

WASHINGTON -- The head of the agency responsible for airport security, facing protests from travelers and pressure from the White House, appeared to give ground Sunday on his position that there would be no change in policies regarding invasive passenger screening procedures.

Transportation Security Administration head John Pistole said in a statement that the agency would work to make screening methods "as minimally invasive as possible," although he gave no indication that screening changes were imminent.

[electau]

The Israeli method is also a deterrent and demonstrably works better than the US methods. and doesn't involve subjecting EVERYONE irrationally to the same invasive methods. If you don't think naked body scanners and genital/breast rubbings are invasive, well, we aren't speaking the same language. This issue isn't going away, and one of the big drivers of this is going to be about the treatment of innocent children. This is bad enough for adults.

I for one agree 100%.

Western goverments do it so as "to be seen to be doing something" there has been a big industry created by the arm chair security "experts"

Big Al ( Al who? Al Q) and Bin Laden (Bill Ladden) (see bin fishing , bin everywhere) win as they cause disruptions causing delays and costs.

They get free publicity thanks to the media ( which makes a lot of money out of it)

And politicians ? See how their popularity increase ie= votes after the NY WTC and Bali incidents.

Yes the system used in Israel is the best to date.

And how many of the so called terrorists have been caught while undergoing screening at an international airport?