Sweden And Thailand Sign New Gripen Deal

[WarpSpeed]

dam_n !!  Who knew ?? Apparently even Myanmar can field a few antique Chinese jets !!! Although it would appear that the greatest danger they pose is to people on the ground when they crash...Anyway my point is still valid, that neighboring countries with a few antique and or not flyable jets rotting on a ramp do not constitute a valid air based strike force, and Thailand should not respond with a expenditure of millions of dollars on something that will not be maintained, or be usable in ten years....

YANGON - A CHINESE-MADE fighter jet crashed and caught fire during a training flight in army-ruled Myanmar on Friday, killing the pilot, witnesses said.

The crash was one of at least 10 fatal accidents involving military aircraft in Myanmar since 1999.

The single-seat F-7 supersonic jet crashed at the Mingaladon Airbase in Yangon, Myanmar's biggest city, after the landing gear failed and the pilot was unable to eject, an official at the nearby international airport told Reuters.

   

How do they certify future Thai airways pilots? With some seriousness... Can't each them on single engined training aircraft.. Might as well do it while showing some muscle and maintaining the Air force.. JFYI I've not see a single U.S. soldier involved in the border skirmishes with Cambo so it's not likely that the U.S. is going to jump into any seemingly minor border disputes or anything similar so it stand to Thailand to stand on it's own and I like that idea..

[philw]

The point being, Thailand's Royal Air Force pilots are operating antique jets susceptible to crashing. To not replace them with something from this millennium is reckless and thoughtless for the lives of those that have sworn to protect it.

Your last sentence is total nonsense baseball fan.

Tell that to the family members in this but one example of many. Easy to poo-poo expenditures when your life isn't on the line.

Pilot dies in fighter jet crash in north-east Thailand

Dec 23, 2009

Bangkok - An F5E fighter jet crashed on a training flight Wednesday in north-east Thailand, killing the pilot, air force officials said.

Flying Officer Chatchawan Rassamee, the sole pilot of the jet, died in the crash.

Production of F5E fighters, a regular item in the United States Air Force in the 1970s and 1980s, ended in 1987.

Nice but stupid and irrelevant try.

Aging Vigens 20yrs from now will present exactly the same problem.

Coupled with the traditional Thai attitude to good maintenance.

Are you seriously saying that an investment in new aircraft should be made because the old ones are knackered ??

How about save pilots lives by not flying the outdated crap and save money by not buying more stuff that will become outdated and dangerous to use within a decade or so ?

Spend the money where it benefits the populace.

I will ignore you poo poo comment because wher I come from it means sh#t.

[whybother]

Nice but stupid and irrelevant try.

Aging Vigens 20yrs from now will present exactly the same problem.

Coupled with the traditional Thai attitude to good maintenance.

Are you seriously saying that an investment in new aircraft should be made because the old ones are knackered ??

How about save pilots lives by not flying the outdated crap and save money by not buying more stuff that will become outdated and dangerous to use within a decade or so ?

Spend the money where it benefits the populace.

I will ignore you poo poo comment because wher I come from it means sh#t.

Are you suggesting that Thailand not spend any money on national security?

[Buchholz]

Nice but stupid and irrelevant try.

A pilot dying while in the service of his nation is stupid and irrelevant. Hmmmm....

Aging Vigens 20yrs from now will present exactly the same problem.

What are Vigens? If you mean Gripens, then yes, they will need to be replaced in 20 years, too. That's the nature of military hardware or computer hardware for that matter. If they don't replace the F-5's, their technology will be 80 years old in 20 years.

Are you seriously saying that an investment in new aircraft should be made because the old ones are knackered ??

Bingo. You win the prize for seeing the light. That's exactly what I'm saying.

[TAWP]

There are plenty of foreign arm chair military "experts" around in Thailand, usually former non commissioned officers - good at detail, not always so good at the big picture.Anyway just in case there is a military aviation expert (ideally from a Western embassy) around it would be useful to know why the cost of these Swedish Gripen JAS39 jets is said to be twice for Thailand that for other purchasing nations.Any reason for this?

I gather the Thai partner with Gripen for this deal is the same firm that marketed the fabulous GT200 devices.

The double price was a lie as pointed out...but also, notice that different packages to different nations have different content. Don't count only the number of planes, look at years of training-support, maintenance, local or remote production of replacement parts etc etc. Add to that what parts of the planes that are included, i.e. radar systems, rockets, bombs etc.

[Buchholz]

How about save pilots lives by not flying the outdated crap and save money by not buying more stuff that will become outdated and dangerous to use within a decade or so ?

So you want the Royal Thai Air Force to not have any planes. And you think that's reasonable?

I will ignore you poo poo comment because wher I come from it means sh#t.

sorry.... I meant pooh-pooh

Definition:

pooh-poohed, pooh-pooh·ing, pooh-poohs

To express contempt for or impatience about; make light of

[philw]

Nice but stupid and irrelevant try.

Aging Vigens 20yrs from now will present exactly the same problem.

Coupled with the traditional Thai attitude to good maintenance.

Are you seriously saying that an investment in new aircraft should be made because the old ones are knackered ??

How about save pilots lives by not flying the outdated crap and save money by not buying more stuff that will become outdated and dangerous to use within a decade or so ?

Spend the money where it benefits the populace.

I will ignore you poo poo comment because wher I come from it means sh#t.

Are you suggesting that Thailand not spend any money on national security?

No.

[philw]

How about save pilots lives by not flying the outdated crap and save money by not buying more stuff that will become outdated and dangerous to use within a decade or so ?

So you want the Royal Thai Air Force to not have any planes. And you think that's reasonable?

I will ignore you poo poo comment because wher I come from it means sh#t.

sorry.... I meant pooh-pooh

Definition:

pooh-poohed, pooh-pooh·ing, pooh-poohs

To express contempt for or impatience about; make light of

I'm not suggesting that the RTAF should not have aircraft.

Of course they should.

How about more helicopters to move troops around and perhaps help with disaster relief etc ??

There are probably wiser choices than single seat, very expensive fighters......

Point is, does Thailand really need this expensive,complex kit ??

Personally, I think not.

Who benefits ??

[bangon04]

The Gripen ordered by Thailand is the multi-role version.

Which means that also ground support is possible with this "fighter"

Extremely useful for terrorising hill tribes and ethnic minorities in border areas, occasionally slaughtering unarmend civilians efficiently...

[whybother]

I'm not suggesting that the RTAF should not have aircraft.

Of course they should.

How about more helicopters to move troops around and perhaps help with disaster relief etc ??

There are probably wiser choices than single seat, very expensive fighters......

Point is, does Thailand really need this expensive,complex kit ??

Personally, I think not.

Who benefits ??

Right ... just throw troops at other nations fighter jets. Good idea.

[philw]

I'm not suggesting that the RTAF should not have aircraft.

Of course they should.

How about more helicopters to move troops around and perhaps help with disaster relief etc ??

There are probably wiser choices than single seat, very expensive fighters......

Point is, does Thailand really need this expensive,complex kit ??

Personally, I think not.

Who benefits ??

Right ... just throw troops at other nations fighter jets. Good idea.

Sarcasm and lack of understanding becomes you.........

[Buchholz]

So you want the Royal Thai Air Force to not have any planes. And you think that's reasonable?

I'm not suggesting that the RTAF should not have aircraft.

I said planes. Do you want the Royal Thai Air Force to not have any planes?

How about more helicopters to move troops around and perhaps help with disaster relief etc ??

Have. Most recently embarked to the South onboard the light carrier during the floods.

There are probably wiser choices than single seat, very expensive fighters......

Point is, does Thailand really need this expensive,complex kit ??

Personally, I think not.

Who benefits ??

The pilots flying them for one. The nation's defense, for another.

For multi-purpose aircraft with its varied taskings like the Gripen, one can't do much to get around them being expensive. If you have alternative suggestions for fighter jet other than the Gripen, that's worth discussing, but there are aspects to a jet like the Gripen that can't be accomplished by other aircraft like helicopters.

Still, Thailand is below average amongst its ASEAN neighbors in military expenditures.

On a world scale, Thailand is ranked # 89 for military expenditure as a percent of GDP. Doesn't sound overly extravagant.

.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Buchholz

[asiawatcher]

they could have bought them off Victor Bout for less than that

Love it...

[philw]

they could have bought them off Victor Bout for less than that

Love it...

It's a first , agree with you.

There's hope.

[jayboy]

There are plenty of foreign arm chair military "experts" around in Thailand, usually former non commissioned officers - good at detail, not always so good at the big picture.Anyway just in case there is a military aviation expert (ideally from a Western embassy) around it would be useful to know why the cost of these Swedish Gripen JAS39 jets is said to be twice for Thailand that for other purchasing nations.Any reason for this?

I gather the Thai partner with Gripen for this deal is the same firm that marketed the fabulous GT200 devices.

The double price was a lie as pointed out...but also, notice that different packages to different nations have different content. Don't count only the number of planes, look at years of training-support, maintenance, local or remote production of replacement parts etc etc. Add to that what parts of the planes that are included, i.e. radar systems, rockets, bombs etc.

I think you are talking about that well known feature "lateral investment" which tends to drive up military procurement costs in Thailand.

Rubi kindly referred me to a discussion in July which covered much of the same ground.It's deja vu all over again , as they say.

In that discussion Johpa (one of my favourite members) said:

"Ah,"lateral investment", the newest euphemism to cover the endemic bribery that is part and parcel of the international arms business. I got a first hand glimpse, and a huge laugh, last January at the SHOT show in Las Vegas where the Feds hauled off Smith & Wesson's VP of sales in handcuffs, and we are only talking small arms here. The bigger guys rarely get caught as the funds are skillfully hidden by lawyers and accountants within purchase orders and contracts."

To get real for a moment, both Gripen and the Thai military establishment have a shocking record for corruption in procurement.That's the context of this discussion.

[EyesWideOpen]

There is no question in my mind that Thailand needs some level of military might to go head to head with Myanmar and Cambodia in these seemingly endless border disputes. The question then becomes what level is reasonable......  A few troops and some mortars would seem to do the trick.

  This concept reached the ultimate absurd level when the navy wanted to buy a submarine. Luckily the King weighed in by saying the Chao Phraya Rivers was a bit shallow for subs, so then the whole issue quietly went away.......Anyway my final point is this is Thailand is in no real danger of being attacked and taken over by any neighboring country. Therefore funds that the government has should be used to benefit the people, not to buy useless toys. In the 40 year history of Thailand flying around fighter jets, have they ever actually been used in defense ??

  After the fiasco of the submarine purchase attempt, the observation blimp, and the GT 2000 bomb detectors,  I would have thought the the military geniuses in charge of procurement would be hiding in shame in their mansions, consoled by their mia nois.......

[Buchholz]

deleted

Edited November 25, 2010 by Buchholz

[Ricardo]

These jet fighter deals are always amazing to me. Let's review neighboring countries that Thailand may need jets to defend itself against......  Burma jet fighters=0    Laos jet fighters=0     Cambodia jet fighters =0    Malaysia has jets, but is unlikely to attack Thailand.......   Besides the King of Thailand in the fifties signed an iron clad defense agreement with America, meaning any country that attacks Thailand will be in a world of hurt.

<snip for brevity>

Do you think that China might perhaps have a few jets ?

[Longtooth]

Looks like Burma has a few planes and more on order. http://en.wikipedia....anmar_Air_Force

I went to this site, and I am now wondering what Burma is arming up for. Its' new aircraft purchases are LARGE and RECENT. It must feel threatened, or it must feel like it might like some more territory around itself to expand its' domain. I don't know where military expenditure money comes from in The Kingdom of Thailand, but maybe, if the Kingdom could afford it, even MORE Gripen aircraft with logistic support and training would help to maintain a "balance of power", like the U.S. had with the U.S.S.R. for so many years. And also, one wonders, where does the military expenditure money come from in BURMA???? China has sold their neighbor some aggressive weapons. I'm sure the military leader/dictator of Burma is just as sane as the military leader/dictator of N. Korea, which means expect the unexpected.

[EyesWideOpen]

These jet fighter deals are always amazing to me. Let's review neighboring countries that Thailand may need jets to defend itself against......  Burma jet fighters=0    Laos jet fighters=0     Cambodia jet fighters =0    Malaysia has jets, but is unlikely to attack Thailand.......   Besides the King of Thailand in the fifties signed an iron clad defense agreement with America, meaning any country that attacks Thailand will be in a world of hurt.

<snip for brevity>

Do you think that China might perhaps have a few jets ?

China indeed has a few jets. However should China decide to invade Thailand, I suspect the Thai response would not be a massive scrambling of their new Gripen fleet to go head to head in dog fights in the sky. Rather it would be something closer to what happened when Japan invaded Thailand........

[philw]

These jet fighter deals are always amazing to me. Let's review neighboring countries that Thailand may need jets to defend itself against......  Burma jet fighters=0    Laos jet fighters=0     Cambodia jet fighters =0    Malaysia has jets, but is unlikely to attack Thailand.......   Besides the King of Thailand in the fifties signed an iron clad defense agreement with America, meaning any country that attacks Thailand will be in a world of hurt.

<snip for brevity>

Do you think that China might perhaps have a few jets ?

China indeed has a few jets. However should China decide to invade Thailand, I suspect the Thai response would not be a massive scrambling of their new Gripen fleet to go head to head in dog fights in the sky. Rather it would be something closer to what happened when Japan invaded Thailand........

Yeah, I think so.

Most of the Gripens will be inoperative within 3 years.

I'll put $50 on that.

Look what happened to the Harriers.

[Buchholz]

First Flight For Thai Gripen

The first flight on the morning of 15 March was completed by Squadron Commander Jackkrit Thammavichai, with Claes Wikstrom from the Swedish Air Force sitting in the rear seat of the Gripen D. The first six Gripen C/D fighters arrived to the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) and their new home base at Wing 7 in Surat Thani in southern Thailand on 22 February.

The six Gripen fighters are part of an intergovernmental business transaction where FMV, the Swedish Defence Material Administration, representing the Government of Sweden, supplies an integrated air-defence system based on products manufactured by Saab. The new air-defence system consists of Gripen, the Airborne Early Warning system Saab 340 Erieye AEW, and a command and control system. In preparation for the delivery of the Gripen fighters, pilots and ground crew from the Royal Thai Air Force have

Continues:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/First_Flight_For_Thai_Gripen_999.html

SPX - March 21, 2011

[Richard W]

Malaysia has jets, but is unlikely to attack Thailand.......

If a Thai government decides that the solution to the problem in the deep south is to get rid of the Malays there, I can see Malaysia doing a Kosovo.