Gay Prejudice In Pattaya

[PattayaOneTeam]

The Worst of Both Worlds

By James Barnes

The plethora of gay venues in Pattaya, the thousands of wide-eyed young Thai gay men who flock here from all over the country to find fortune and love, the city’s popularity with gay tourists and gay expats are all signs of how Thai society tolerates gay people. Pattaya seems to be close to Utopia for gay Thais and foreigners alike. It is disturbing to learn that physical assaults on gay men are not uncommon in Pattaya and verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife. This homophobia is mostly unreported, especially by tourists who do not want their holidays further spoiled by involvement with officialdom and expats who may have a jaded view of the local justice system. The perpetrators of this frightening aggression are never Thai.

Thai society is less accepting of homosexuality than Europeans are. There are no same sex civil partnerships here. Nor is there any of the equality that legal status confers. Thai gay men still feel that they have to marry and produce children. They often dare not come out of the closet at work- a suicidal career move. Thai families are not generally accepting of gay children. Many bars frequented by gay Thai men will not advertise themselves as being gay establishments because gay professionals would never patronise them, fearful of becoming ‘known’. But gays are tolerated here. Thais may be full of prejudices that have largely disappeared in Europe with its politically correct ethics but they do not accept homosexuality. Nor do they punch someone in the mouth because that someone enjoys a love of his own gender.

In contrast, Europe is beginning to see gay couples who have engaged in civil partnerships in the same light as heterosexual married couples. Gay businesses run openly and with pride under the full protection of the law. Equal opportunities legislation also prevents discrimination in the workplace. More and more parents are willing to accept that their children are gay and it is many a long year since a gay elected public official had any novelty value. This is, of course, a generalised view- many eastern European countries retain a bigoted, puritanical and offensive position towards gay people and don’t even attempt to equate Russia with egalitarian thought.

In Thailand, there is tolerance and little acceptance. In Europe there is acceptance but less tolerance. Here we are, approaching the year 2011 and the struggle for gay rights has to continue. Gay people should never accept this worst of both worlds. They are entitled to live in one world, where acceptance and tolerance go hand in hand. A world that provides equality under the law. Where gay men can walk in the streets, hand in hand, without fearing a punch in the mouth.

James Barnes is Editor of OUT in Thailand Magazine.

Enjoyed this article? Why not go to our poll and vote for it at:

FREE DOWNLOAD HERE

Download the full #4 issue in PDF format here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/files/download/660-pattaya-one-issue-4/

-- Pattaya One 2010-11-25

[Ulysses G.]

For all the camouflage of "acceptance" in the Western world, I would guess that gays are still more accepted in Thailand.

Demanding more acceptance - that they are unlikely to get - may backfire on them in the long run.

[taff33]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

[Rumpole]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

You mean like they did with the Welsh and their sheep?

(So easy to engage in moronic, prejudicial stereotyping.)

Edited November 25, 2010 by Rumpole

[Jingthing]

It is disturbing to learn that physical assaults on gay men are not uncommon in Pattaya and verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife. This homophobia is mostly unreported, especially by tourists who do not want their holidays further spoiled by involvement with officialdom and expats who may have a jaded view of the local justice system. The perpetrators of this frightening aggression are never Thai.

This is the most interesting part of this article and I thank you from bringing up a subject in the local media that I haven't seen addressed before. Well done! I personally have both observed and experienced overt homophobia from foreigners in Pattaya towards both Thai and foreign sexual minorities. Mostly dirty looks, jeering, derisive laughing, pointing aggressively, etc. I have yet to see or experience homophobic violence here, though there is little doubt it occurs. Again, it's a breath of fresh air that this rather hidden subject is seeing the light of day.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

For all the camouflage of "acceptance" in the Western world, I would guess that gays are still more accepted in Thailand.

Demanding more acceptance - that they are unlikely to get - may backfire on them in the long run.

It's up to the Thai gays whether they want to organize and take political action here, or not.

[Jingthing]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

A gay island sounds like a good idea for a holiday resort (it's been done), but what you just described is a prison. Put them on an island, indeed. Oy vey!

[sharecropper]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

You mean like they did with the Welsh and their sheep?

(So easy to engage in moronic, prejudicial stereotyping.)

A fair point, although Wales isn't an island, of course.......

[makescents]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

Good idea. We'd get rid of all the homophobes in one swoop.

[cdnvic]

Please have an intelligent debate without insults flying about. Further insults will result in account action.

[taff33]

why not put them all on an island ,then they can do what they want to do, when they want to do it,with whom they want to do it ,at any time they want to do it.

You mean like they did with the Welsh and their sheep?

(So easy to engage in moronic, prejudicial stereotyping.)

you use very big words thank you for being so nice you must be a lovely chap. with the welsh and the sheep don't knock it 'till you try it ( unless you all ready have). have a nice day

[Suradit]

It is disturbing to learn that physical assaults on gay men are not uncommon in Pattaya and verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife.

This homophobia is mostly unreported ...

There seem to be a whole lot of unsubstantiated "facts" or at least implications, in this article and a suggestion that gay people in Pattaya are living in fear of physical or verbal abuse.

If these things are "mostly unreported," how are they known? "Rife??" Really, rife?? Is the author running some anonymous hotline for people to report that they were sneered at on Walking Street or pummeled in Sunee Plaza? How has he sorted out who was physically assaulted because of sexual orientation in these "mostly unreported" attacks? I suppose it's the old "everyone knows it's happening" fact base.

I'm not suggesting that Pattaya is an oasis of love and respect for all of humanity, but where is the evidence that gays are being targeted? A lot of people get drunk & disorderly in certain areas of Pattaya, often leading to heated verbal abuse and nasty physical assaults that have nothing to do with common sense, much less sexual orientation.

The author (and whoever titled the thread) seem to want to focus our attention on the dangers of walking the streets in Pattaya at first, but that quickly turns to more general comments on attitudes in all social settings in Thailand as opposed to those in Europe [not counting Eastern Europe and don't even think about Russia]. Someone's thesis (and focus) is getting a little ragged around the edges.

Also, amidst the alleged blood running in the streets of Pattaya, we are given a lesson in the supposed distinction between being tolerated and being accepted (as opposed to being left bloody alone, which most of us would be happy with and seems to be something Pattaya is pretty good at).

++Thai society tolerates gay people

++Thai society is less accepting of homosexuality

++But gays are tolerated here

++but they do not accept homosexuality

++In Thailand, there is tolerance and little acceptance

++In Europe there is acceptance but less tolerance.

++and don't even attempt to equate Russia with egalitarian thought

I'm not certain that I really care whether someone "accepts" me and I don't aim to be " tolerated," if that implies that the opinions of the unwashed masses staggering around on Beach Road are important to who I am.

A world that provides equality under the law.

Are tolerance and acceptance mandated by law? Or is the topic once again veering off the onto a side street?

Where gay men can walk in the streets, hand in hand, without fearing a punch in the mouth.

Once again, what does this really have to do with Pattaya? Or Thailand?

I don't think a lot of time or much coherent thought went into this article. Maybe a little more information about the author and his years of experience in Thailand would put it in some meaningful context, but as it stands it's just random, aimless musings.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Suradit

[Jingthing]

I don't think a lot of time or much coherent thought went into this article. Maybe a little more information about the author and his years of experience in Thailand would put it in some meaningful context, but as it stands it's just random, aimless musings.

Oh please. It's obviously an opinion piece, not the release of a major new scientific study. In any case, I can confirm there are indeed a lot of bad vibes being directed at obvious sexual minorities in Pattaya from foreigners. I see it all the time.

I can also confirm that many gays in the know here have learned to try to be more discreet than they might like to try to prevent too much overt hostility from foreigners. They may want to hold hands in public but don't, for JUSTIFIED fear of the bad consequences.

That also is an opinion. As far as actual violence, foreign expat or tourist towards foreign expats, tourists, or Thai sexual minorities, I am also not convinced this is widespread here. I haven't seen that or experienced it and it isn't reported commonly in the news. Yes, I have seen violence here, mostly Thai on Thai gang related stuff.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[NALAK]

i see plenty of gay couples around holding hands and showing affection to each other in public, usually supermarkets. i for one dont like to see it thats me i cant help the way i feel, i have my reasons, but it makes my stomach churn. but i would never resort to violence towards them. really dont know why some gay couples have to ram it down the throats of others they are gay. seems very well tolerated in Thailand

[Jingthing]

i see plenty of gay couples around holding hands and showing affection to each other in public, usually supermarkets. i for one dont like to see it thats me i cant help the way i feel, i have my reasons, but it makes my stomach churn. but i would never resort to violence towards them. really dont know why some gay couples have to ram it down the throats of others they are gay. seems very well tolerated in Thailand

Maybe they like each other. Why different from a straight couple? In a supermarket would be a safe place. On a baht bus with a bunch of macho Russians/chavs/Iranians, not so safe. Your personal nausea is kind of your problem, isn't it? Why should people change their behavior because of that? Fear of violence, well, that's a good reason.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

]

I don't think a lot of time or much coherent thought went into this article. Maybe a little more information about the author and his years of experience in Thailand would put it in some meaningful context, but as it stands it's just random, aimless musings.

To be fair I would imagine that a reasonable amount of thought went into the article but most of it was based on pre-concieved bias by a foreigner with an axe to grind and a magazine to promote.

His article makes little sense, as it contradicts itself throughout and says little that is constructive for or about Thais in any way.

First he says "how Thai society tolerates gay people" and how "verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife", but that the "perpetrators of this frightening aggression are never Thai"; then from that he somehow deduces that "Thai society is less accepting of homosexuality than Europeans are" when the opposite is clearly the case. If the "perpetrators" are farangs, never Thais, then obviously it is the European society that is less accepting of homosexuality, not Thai society.

Agreed, there is no civil partnership here, but that is because Thai "society", even Thai gay society, does not see it as the priority that European society does. Its absence is not an indicator of prejudice, but of its comparative importance - after all, registered marriage here is of considerably less importance here than in many European countries and "common law" marriages are recognised in all levels of Thai society. the author has made the all too common mistake, possibly deliberately, of confusing legislation with society.

"verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife". Rife, as in common, widespread, etc? Absolute rubbish. It happens, occasionally, as does abuse of any minority by the bigoted, but to say that it is "rife" is simply absurd.

"Thai families are not generally accepting of gay children." Untrue, and a ridiculous generalisation; some families do not accept gay children, but most do.

"Many bars frequented by gay Thai men will not advertise themselves as being gay establishments because gay professionals would never patronise them, fearful of becoming 'known'." Untrue, and a complete mis-reading of the situation. Many of these bars do not "advertise themselves as being gay establishments" because they do not want to be confused with the type of commercial gay bars with which the author of the article is far more familiar. Nothing more.

As I have said before, in other sub-forums, our "gay issues" are not the same as Western gay issues. We do not want your gay rights, we want ours and they are often the opposite of yours. A good recent example was the issue of gay rights in the military: you want the right for gays to serve in the military - we want the right for gays not to serve in the military! Your "struggle" is the opposite of ours.

More information on James Barnes and his publishing career, Suradit? Look no further than Pattaya Times for some interesting details.

Edited December 12, 2010 by SweatiePie

[Jingthing]

Why do they think that because they engage in anal sex that they are due special protections? What ever happened to "grow up and become a man" And " sticks and stones...."? Also, they are a small minority, so they should remember that it is cowboys and Indians, not Indians and cowboys.

Excuse me, sir, but did you just try to rationalize people hating on gay people just because they are a minority, and that gay people should accept being insulted that way? I think you did. So you think it's the manly thing to passively accept being slurred?

My suggestion, google

you very very much youtube

Also note, not all gay people engage in or enjoy anal sex, and not all straight people don't!

BTW, we don't want "special protections." We want EQUAL rights.

If people think my response to this is too strong, imagine the reaction if a poster tried to justify calling another minority group dirty names to their faces, such as blacks, Jews, Chinese, etc.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jingthing

[JUDAS]

Without addressing the contradictions in the article, they are saying foreigners are verbally abusing and in some cases assaulting homosexuals. To be honest I find nothing at all surprising in that, after all, a leopard doesn't change his spots because he's on vacation for a few weeks. A hater is a hater....

[Jingthing]

Without addressing the contradictions in the article, they are saying foreigners are verbally abusing and in some cases assaulting homosexuals. To be honest I find nothing at all surprising in that, after all, a leopard doesn't change his spots because he's on vacation for a few weeks. A hater is a hater....

Agreed 100 percent. However, I know the verbal abuse and open mocking is happening for sure, but the part I wonder about is the violence, foreigners against both foreign and Thai homosexuals. I have not ever witnessed this myself, and I don't recall reading any cases in the press about this specifically, especially the foreign on foreign violence that is supposedly happening. I don't know that it is isn't happening of course, certainly what makes it to the press is the tip of the iceberg.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I am saying that they should get past their victim role, and grow up.

Please expand on that. If a group of machos are bashing homosexuals on the streets, what to you constitutes the proper behavior to manifest this not playing the "victim", grown up, "role" that you advocate? Seems to me it's the machos who need to grow up. Honestly, I really don't know what you are saying now. If someone is violently assaulted without cause for any reason, for example, aren't they a "victim" by definition?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[carmine]

i see plenty of gay couples around holding hands and showing affection to each other in public, usually supermarkets. i for one dont like to see it thats me i cant help the way i feel, i have my reasons, but it makes my stomach churn. but i would never resort to violence towards them. really dont know why some gay couples have to ram it down the throats of others they are gay. seems very well tolerated in Thailand

Maybe they like each other. Why different from a straight couple? In a supermarket would be a safe place. On a baht bus with a bunch of macho Russians/chavs/Iranians, not so safe. Your personal nausea is kind of your problem, isn't it? Why should people change their behavior because of that? Fear of violence, well, that's a good reason.

I think Nalaks post is fairly reasonable JT. I don't particularily like seeing a guy and his girlfriend getting over affectionate in public either. It not about a gat thing for me, its more about the way to behave in public, but maybe i'm just old fashioned. That said, such behaviour is not the Thai way either, and i think people should behave with more understanding of the environment and culture they live in.

[Jingthing]

If you are talking about traditional Thai culture, two male friends holding hands isn't deemed offensive (I reckon the opposite actually, it's sweet). It's quite normal and doesn't mean they are gay either.

But let me check, Pattaya doesn't exactly reflect traditional Thai culture.

Next ...

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[Lumumba]

Why do they think that because they engage in anal sex that they are due special protections? What ever happened to "grow up and become a man" And " sticks and stones...."? Also, they are a small minority, so they should remember that it is cowboys and Indians, not Indians and cowboys.

Excuse me, sir, but did you just try to rationalize people hating on gay people just because they are a minority, and that gay people should accept being insulted that way? I think you did. So you think it's the manly thing to passively accept being slurred?

My suggestion, google

you very very much youtube

Also note, not all gay people engage in or enjoy anal sex, and not all straight people don't!

BTW, we don't want "special protections." We want EQUAL rights.

If people think my response to this is too strong, imagine the reaction if a poster tried to justify calling another minority group dirty names to their faces, such as blacks, Jews, Chinese, etc.

Chinese are still minorities? May be at the ISS.

As for Blacks, folks just call us names because our shlongs are fat.

I dont know much about the Jews, but they got some nukes and Jesus came from there.

[powderpuff]

This homophobia is mostly unreported

Probably because it never happened.

Makes a great story though huh?

Pattaya One inventing news everyday.

[Jingthing]

This homophobia is mostly unreported

Probably because it never happened.

Makes a great story though huh?

Pattaya One inventing news everyday.

I observe homophobia very often from foreigners here. Nothing I have observed as yet would be reportable as a crime. Making fun of people, calling them bad slur names among your buddies, pointing at people who are different and laughing in a mocking manner aren't reportable crimes. Violent assault is. I have mentioned already that I also question whether violent assaults against gay people are really widespread here. On the other hand, I would bet that when it does happen, a lot of people would be very hesitant to report it to the police here, as the victims may feel they wouldn't find sympathy and support from the police. In any case, I think it's great that this issue is out in the open now.

We do know for a fact that violent assaults against gays does indeed occur quite often in the countries that many of these homophobic tourists are coming from. That is easy to prove with a quick google, do it yourself if you don't believe me. The question is whether this group of people that undoubtedly includes some homophobic abusers may be taking a break from their "normal" behavior while on holiday in such a freewheeling fleshpot city as Pattaya. I have a feeling that is what is happening to a large extent, so that most of the homophobia that does occur here may mostly be verbal (and by rude gestures) rather than actual violent attacks. Of course, I am only speculating.

There is nothing anyone can do to stop the verbal and gestural homophobia. However, if and when this escalates to actual violence, that does seem to me to be a social issue that should be of interest to people of good will here, foreigners and Thais.

BTW, Pattaya One didn't "make up" any "news" here. The article in question is quite obviously NOT a news report. It is feature page opinion type article.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[NALAK]

i see plenty of gay couples around holding hands and showing affection to each other in public, usually supermarkets. i for one dont like to see it thats me i cant help the way i feel, i have my reasons, but it makes my stomach churn. but i would never resort to violence towards them. really dont know why some gay couples have to ram it down the throats of others they are gay. seems very well tolerated in Thailand

Maybe they like each other. Why different from a straight couple? In a supermarket would be a safe place. On a baht bus with a bunch of macho Russians/chavs/Iranians, not so safe. Your personal nausea is kind of your problem, isn't it? Why should people change their behavior because of that? Fear of violence, well, that's a good reason.

not considered it a problem and never will, as usual you taken over a thread as soon as the word gay is mentioned, a good example of why certain minority groups get up other peoples noses.

Edited December 21, 2010 by NALAK

[Jingthing]

You said seeing gays expressing affection makes you ill. If I were you, I would consider that a problem, but clearly I am not you, so carry on! BTW, nobody is ramming anything down your throat unless you want it rammed; otherwise that would be rape.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jingthing

[transam]

You said seeing gays express affection makes you ill. If I were you, I would consider that a problem, but clearly I am not you, so carry on!

Think for some of us spirit level guys (straight), seeing a guy canoodaling with another guy is repulsive. I have no problem with you or your sexual stuff BUT you must take on board what some/me straight guys feel.

OK,OK you will say that's discrimination but in my eyes it's unnatural and clicks a switch..

[powderpuff]

Why not try & confine your remarks to Thailand & leave the fishing expedition - what goes on in other countries ? for another time & place.

Oy Vey? Do you belong to 2 minorities?

Pattaya One - giving Jerry Springer a run for his money !!!!!!!

Lies & fabrications.

Jing you have zero evidence so you go to the hypothetical also. Rubbish.

[Jingthing]

Read the OP. We are talking about Thailand. Specifically the way homophobic foreign tourists (and sometimes expats) behave in Pattaya.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jingthing