Awareness Is Not Enough!

[rockyysdt]

During a Dhamma talk the speaker recently emphasized that Mindfulness or Self Awareness was not enough.

He indicated that awareness without wisdom will continue to lead to actions lacking in discrimination.

I'm noticing what appear to be indiscriminate replies to many posts in our forum. Many of these are infused with poor tone and sometimes seem to be lacking respect.

Misinterpretation and/or disagreement may be the seed. The written form can easily be misinterpreted and may lead to apparent escalating hostility.

Healthy debate and airing ones thoughts are important, but isn't presenting without tolerance, consideration, respect, humility, or some level of loving kindness not the Buddhist way?

Does posting in such a manner, in a written medium, show a level of non awareness and/or lack of wisdom?

The Dhamma speaker indicated that as well as practicing awareness of our senses, in order to obtain wisdom, we should also practice awareness of our awareness itself.

How can we achieve this?

I can grasp awareness of body (touch, smell, sound, sight, taste, thought), but how do l grasp awareness of awareness?

Edited November 26, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

Interesting.

Are you referring to unpleasant topics?

Are you referring to "religious political correctness"?

[rockyysdt]

Interesting.

Are you referring to unpleasant topics?

Are you referring to "religious political correctness"?

If you mean posting manners, these could relate to anything we discuss in this forum.

Awareness of ones awareness is new to me and of interest.

Edited November 26, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Awareness of the awareness is an approach to practice that has been made popular by Sayadaw U Teganiya. See http://sayadawutejaniya.org/ where you can download books and MP3's.

Essentially this approach is a change from encouraging your mind go out to the objects, which is generally what happens with Mahasi Sayadaw technique where we are encouraged to note this object, then the next, then the next, which can get quite tiring.

Instead this approach assumes the mind is capable of being aware of external objects all by itself, we just have to let it. So instead all we have to do is let the objects come to us, just be aware that awareness is happening and by putting our attention on the process of awareness rather than the external objects we reinforce that process of awareness.

So instead of taking one step back in our observation we take two. This is the starting point though as once we have established this as a base this is where wisdom can start working, hence the phrase awareness is not enough.

[christiaan]

Interesting.

Are you referring to unpleasant topics?

Are you referring to "religious political correctness"?

If you mean posting manners, these could relate to anything we discuss in this forum.

Awareness of ones awareness is new to me and of interest.

Reading your question my first tought was awareness of awareness is reached by intuition.

But to go into your question more deeply it might be important first to define what is the difference between awareness and wisdom?

Then, when defining this, one has to look at the actual possible state of awareness, does awareness means completely awareness or is it - in most situations - limited awareness.

When awareness is limited, wisdom is limited?

[rockyysdt]

Awareness of the awareness is an approach to practice that has been made popular by Sayadaw U Teganiya. See http://sayadawutejaniya.org/ where you can download books and MP3's.

Essentially this approach is a change from encouraging your mind go out to the objects, which is generally what happens with Mahasi Sayadaw technique where we are encouraged to note this object, then the next, then the next, which can get quite tiring.

Instead this approach assumes the mind is capable of being aware of external objects all by itself, we just have to let it. So instead all we have to do is let the objects come to us, just be aware that awareness is happening and by putting our attention on the process of awareness rather than the external objects we reinforce that process of awareness.

So instead of taking one step back in our observation we take two. This is the starting point though as once we have established this as a base this is where wisdom can start working, hence the phrase awareness is not enough.

Thanks Bruce.

I've bookmarked the link.

I'm always looking for new inspirational material to help me refocus on mindfulness.

I also find listening to regular dhamma podcasts restores my attention.

[rockyysdt]

Reading your question my first thought was awareness of awareness is reached by intuition.

But to go into your question more deeply it might be important first to define what is the difference between awareness and wisdom?

Then, when defining this, one has to look at the actual possible state of awareness, does awareness means completely awareness or is it - in most situations - limited awareness.

When awareness is limited, wisdom is limited?

Hi Christiaan

I'm not sure of the answer as I'm still learning but someone had said that wisdom is always present in moments when there is no greed, aversion, or delusion, whilst simple mindfulness is data collection.

Also wisdom grows by expanding our awareness.

It was also said that wisdom develops when the mind is simple.

A complicated mind, which thinks, expects, and plans too much, blocks off wisdom.

The mind must be simple in order to be in the present and in order to see things just as they are.

Edited November 26, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Reading your question my first tought was awareness of awareness is reached by intuition.

But to go into your question more deeply it might be important first to define what is the difference between awareness and wisdom?

Then, when defining this, one has to look at the actual possible state of awareness, does awareness means completely awareness or is it - in most situations - limited awareness.

When awareness is limited, wisdom is limited?

Yes I agree awareness of awareness is an intuitive process, any meditation practice when approached with the right attitude is intuitive.

Awareness leads to wisdom, awareness gathers the data but it's wisdom that converts data to information, then information to more wisdom.

Like all things awareness is subject to change, sometimes it's strong, sometimes weak, sometimes focussed, sometimes scattered. The purpose of this practice is to make it stronger and more consistant.

[christiaan]

I wonder what could be told about being aware - out of the practice of meditation - of a person we meet.

Can somebody tell about this by experience?

I try to imagine someone has done a lot of practice in concentration, meditation, study and then there is at some point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before.

I know there are different aproaches to the Buddhist practice, meditation and study, so I understand there will be different outcome, but I would like to meet some information about the actual experiences.

One could look at how the awareness was before related to a person someone met, and how the awareness changed related to that person after practice and study, but when there is information about a change in awareness with regard to some object that would be interesting too.

[rockyysdt]

I wonder what could be told about being aware - out of the practice of meditation - of a person we meet.

Can somebody tell about this by experience?

I try to imagine someone has done a lot of practice in concentration, meditation, study and then there is at some point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before.

I know there are different aproaches to the Buddhist practice, meditation and study, so I understand there will be different outcome, but I would like to meet some information about the actual experiences.

One could look at how the awareness was before related to a person someone met, and how the awareness changed related to that person after practice and study, but when there is information about a change in awareness with regard to some object that would be interesting too.

To me this is a contentious issue.

I have observed people who follow Buddhist teaching.

I have noticed behaviors (greed, aversion, or delusion) not in keeping with expected results.

Even apparent dedicated Monks of many years who still display behaviors controlled by their early life conditioning.

It's understood that following the Dhamma includes study & regular practice.

If there was a change in a practioner, could this be due to new conditioning rather than by awareness itself?

Perhaps there are not many who can say they have reached "a point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before".

Edited November 28, 2010 by rockyysdt

[IMA_FARANG]

quote:

===============================

The Dhamma speaker indicated that as well as practicing awareness of our senses, in order to obtain wisdom, we should also practice awareness of our awareness itself.

How can we achieve this

================================

unquote

Then may I respond to that particular point (repectfully and with all due consideration I hope).

Practicing "awareness of our awareness" to me sounds like what we in Zen would call, "chasing mind with mind" or "seeking for fire with a lit candle".

To go looking for fire with a lit candle is a pointless pursuit...because if one had true understanding of the real nature of a candle then the nature of "fire" would already be understood.

Therefore, in our tradition, "awareness" is simply seeing with open eyes, hearing with open ears, and understanding "awareness" with a mind that is not bound to the illusions and delusions of the world. (Or as we might say "no attachment to form")

It is often explained as "Sitting quietly, doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

And how is that "awareness" obtained?

Sitting quietly,doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

(It takes practice).

[rockyysdt]

Then may I respond to that particular point (repectfully and with all due consideration I hope).

Practicing "awareness of our awareness" to me sounds like what we in Zen would call, "chasing mind with mind" or "seeking for fire with a lit candle".

To go looking for fire with a lit candle is a pointless pursuit...because if one had true understanding of the real nature of a candle then the nature of "fire" would already be understood.

Therefore, in our tradition, "awareness" is simply seeing with open eyes, hearing with open ears, and understanding "awareness" with a mind that is not bound to the illusions and delusions of the world. (Or as we might say "no attachment to form")

It is often explained as "Sitting quietly, doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

And how is that "awareness" obtained?

Sitting quietly,doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

(It takes practice).

Hi IF.

Do Zen & Vipassana diverge or are they complimentary?

[khaowong1]

quote:

===============================

The Dhamma speaker indicated that as well as practicing awareness of our senses, in order to obtain wisdom, we should also practice awareness of our awareness itself.

How can we achieve this

================================

unquote

Then may I respond to that particular point (repectfully and with all due consideration I hope).

Practicing "awareness of our awareness" to me sounds like what we in Zen would call, "chasing mind with mind" or "seeking for fire with a lit candle".

To go looking for fire with a lit candle is a pointless pursuit...because if one had true understanding of the real nature of a candle then the nature of "fire" would already be understood.

Therefore, in our tradition, "awareness" is simply seeing with open eyes, hearing with open ears, and understanding "awareness" with a mind that is not bound to the illusions and delusions of the world. (Or as we might say "no attachment to form")

It is often explained as "Sitting quietly, doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

And how is that "awareness" obtained?

Sitting quietly,doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

(It takes practice).

very well put and easily understood. Thanks..

[christiaan]

I wonder what could be told about being aware - out of the practice of meditation - of a person we meet.

Can somebody tell about this by experience?

I try to imagine someone has done a lot of practice in concentration, meditation, study and then there is at some point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before.

I know there are different aproaches to the Buddhist practice, meditation and study, so I understand there will be different outcome, but I would like to meet some information about the actual experiences.

One could look at how the awareness was before related to a person someone met, and how the awareness changed related to that person after practice and study, but when there is information about a change in awareness with regard to some object that would be interesting too.

To me this is a contentious issue.

I have observed people who follow Buddhist teaching.

I have noticed behaviors (greed, aversion, or delusion) not in keeping with expected results.

Even apparent dedicated Monks of many years who still display behaviors controlled by their early life conditioning.

It's understood that following the Dhamma includes study & regular practice.

If there was a change in a practioner, could this be due to new conditioning rather than by awareness itself?

Perhaps there are not many who can say they have reached "a point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before".

[christiaan]

When we look to awareness in general we see that once we got aware of the world, people, objects around us, we will not loose this awareness in a normal healthy situation.

When I did become aware as a child, what food is, who my parents are, my family, where my school is what I have learned at school, I will not forget this.

I can even remember myself sitting in a chair eating when I was about 5 years old and I still remember the kitchen where we eat, even after leaving this house 48 years ago.

I still remember the french language I learned 43 years ago at school allthough I seldom used it since that time.

All this experience that made me become aware did change me, made me the person I am now.

So what is the awareness we behold and what is the awareness that is difficult to hold and seem to disappear as I read above?

Minerals, plants, animals do not have the awareness up to selfawareness, they do not have the awareness of awareness.

But they live by every faculty they reached in their life caused by 'something'

A bird flies cos that is its abbility and becos it flies it can cross the water easily, go up the trees and mountains to collect food.

By-cause we are humans we can have awareness, because we have this awareness we can be aware of .....for 'some reason' we are humans.

It might be possible awareness comes when I am sitting quietly,doing nothing. observing the rain comes, the grass growing by itself."

By my observation this is the most easy way to be aware to some level.

But just imagine to be aware at the moment you are brutally robbed.

The situation outside myself tells nothing about awareness, it is there even when my awareness is not able to be aware of it cos I might be sleeping.

Awareness is being awake personally at the moment when the self also is awake.

Awareness is the activity inside a human, we can even be aware of what is not there physically, we can be aware of thoughts.

Awareness is talking to my self, it is my self talking to me about myself and the outer world as an inner spiritual activity.

A human can be aware in every situation and can be selfaware in every situation.

When its raining, when taking care the ricefield, when driving a car, drinking a whiskey, being involved in a fight.

I would advocate not to discriminate in awareness, awareness can be related to everything in the meaning : I can be aware of.............

The question is what does the awareness of being aware , wich is selfawareness, the awareness being aware of the awareness of the self, - since it is very difficult to be aware of the awareness inside another person - what does this awareness tell us, bring us, what is it making possible, what is inside this faculty, this abillity?

And how does it change us, in what way do we change, what is the change in being aware of the self and what is the change in being aware of the world?

When a person is enlighted, what is enlighted of/in the outside world for this person, what is enlighted about the self?

[Brucenkhamen]

I wonder what could be told about being aware - out of the practice of meditation - of a person we meet.

Can somebody tell about this by experience?

I try to imagine someone has done a lot of practice in concentration, meditation, study and then there is at some point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before.

I know there are different aproaches to the Buddhist practice, meditation and study, so I understand there will be different outcome, but I would like to meet some information about the actual experiences.

One could look at how the awareness was before related to a person someone met, and how the awareness changed related to that person after practice and study, but when there is information about a change in awareness with regard to some object that would be interesting too.

No need to wonder, just undertake the practice for a period of time and find out for yourself.

If you are wondering about the affect of this technique as opposed to other techniques then I would say the biggest benefit is that it is relatively easy to take it into your day to day life, wheras some practices can feel quite clunky or one can get confused on how to do it when outside of a retreat situation, so the practice can be much more continuous.

As for somebody who has done a lot of practice, whether this technique or others, it's usually a case of there being a gradual change in various areas, mostly around how the mind relates to or reacts to experience. One slowly begins to realise that contentment is found within and one doesn't need to be pushed or pulled by reaction to external experience.

I don't think one can measure this kind of shift in the way of relating to experience, but most people I've met that I know have undertaken this path long and deeply have a calm relaxed nature, and are very present.

[Brucenkhamen]

Practicing "awareness of our awareness" to me sounds like what we in Zen would call, "chasing mind with mind" or "seeking for fire with a lit candle".

To go looking for fire with a lit candle is a pointless pursuit...because if one had true understanding of the real nature of a candle then the nature of "fire" would already be understood.

Therefore, in our tradition, "awareness" is simply seeing with open eyes, hearing with open ears, and understanding "awareness" with a mind that is not bound to the illusions and delusions of the world. (Or as we might say "no attachment to form")

It is often explained as "Sitting quietly, doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

And how is that "awareness" obtained?

Sitting quietly,doing nothing. The rain comes, the grass grows by itself."

What you've described I think is pretty much another way of describing the same thing.

In normal vipassana practice one is taught to pay attention to the objects one is experiencing, the breath, body sensations, thoughts, feelings etc, so one takes a step back from experience.

In awareness of awareness one is taught to pay attention to the mind which is aware of the above objects, so one takes two steps back from experience.

Essentially one begins to realise that all one has to do is allow the mind to be receptive and drop the meddling, experience comes and goes but the mind just remains receptive.

Of course that's just the beginning.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Brucenkhamen

[Brucenkhamen]

The question is what does the awareness of being aware , wich is selfawareness, the awareness being aware of the awareness of the self, - since it is very difficult to be aware of the awareness inside another person - what does this awareness tell us, bring us, what is it making possible, what is inside this faculty, this abillity?

And how does it change us, in what way do we change, what is the change in being aware of the self and what is the change in being aware of the world?

When a person is enlighted, what is enlighted of/in the outside world for this person, what is enlighted about the self?

For a start there is no self, so the term self or "self awareness" is just a relative concept, and there is no self to get enlightened. This is how we reflect on our experience.

All it is really is using the mind to train the mind, giving importance to the mind itself rather that to the thoughts, reactions, perceptions, feelings, and moods etc that pass in and out of the mind.

When the mind becomes more expansive and receptive it starts let go of the need to grasp or react to experience and believe the concepts it creates about the world are true, which is a more natural state.

[rockyysdt]

For a start there is no self, so the term self or "self awareness" is just a relative concept, and there is no self to get enlightened. This is how we reflect on our experience.

All it is really is using the mind to train the mind, giving importance to the mind itself rather that to the thoughts, reactions, perceptions, feelings, and moods etc that pass in and out of the mind.

When the mind becomes more expansive and receptive it starts let go of the need to grasp or react to experience and believe the concepts it creates about the world are true, which is a more natural state.

I thought everyone had agreed that there is a "real self", but as progress is hindered due to attachment to ego then we drop the self conceptually.

Without a real self (hidden) there is no point in anything as the self we are conscious of is conditioned and impermanent and ends upon death.

If there is no self beyond what we currently see, then why spend a lifetime depriving oneself?

Edited November 29, 2010 by rockyysdt

[christiaan]

I wonder what could be told about being aware - out of the practice of meditation - of a person we meet.

Can somebody tell about this by experience?

I try to imagine someone has done a lot of practice in concentration, meditation, study and then there is at some point a change in awareness , a change that shows awareness is different as before.

I know there are different aproaches to the Buddhist practice, meditation and study, so I understand there will be different outcome, but I would like to meet some information about the actual experiences.

One could look at how the awareness was before related to a person someone met, and how the awareness changed related to that person after practice and study, but when there is information about a change in awareness with regard to some object that would be interesting too.

No need to wonder, just undertake the practice for a period of time and find out for yourself.

If you are wondering about the affect of this technique as opposed to other techniques then I would say the biggest benefit is that it is relatively easy to take it into your day to day life, wheras some practices can feel quite clunky or one can get confused on how to do it when outside of a retreat situation, so the practice can be much more continuous.

As for somebody who has done a lot of practice, whether this technique or others, it's usually a case of there being a gradual change in various areas, mostly around how the mind relates to or reacts to experience. One slowly begins to realise that contentment is found within and one doesn't need to be pushed or pulled by reaction to external experience.

I don't think one can measure this kind of shift in the way of relating to experience, but most people I've met that I know have undertaken this path long and deeply have a calm relaxed nature, and are very present.

I know people - no Buddhists in this case - who did not take this path long and deeply and just have a calm relaxed nature and are very present.

But be side that , is this all that there is as a result to go this path long and deeply to have : a calm and relax nature and be very present?

This is no critic but just a question.

I know people who did a long and deep study about a certain physical matter and by this found a treatment to cure a terrible disease.

[christiaan]

For a start there is no self, so the term self or "self awareness" is just a relative concept, and there is no self to get enlightened. This is how we reflect on our experience.

All it is really is using the mind to train the mind, giving importance to the mind itself rather that to the thoughts, reactions, perceptions, feelings, and moods etc that pass in and out of the mind.

When the mind becomes more expansive and receptive it starts let go of the need to grasp or react to experience and believe the concepts it creates about the world are true, which is a more natural state.

I thought everyone had agreed that there is a "real self", but as progress is hindered due to attachment to ego then we drop the self conceptually.

Without a real self (hidden) there is no point in anything as the self we are conscious of is conditioned and impermanent and ends upon death.

If there is no self beyond what we currently see, then why spend a lifetime depriving oneself?

I agree, everyone can decide for him or her self to see no self or to see a self but I got the impression many do agree there is a self..

To me there is a self absolutely, allthough it is not a matter of enlightening this self,

The self is part of the movement to enlightment.

I also wonder what is deciding within a person , the mind should train the mind?

Or, what inside a person is deciding to follow a Buddhist teaching to have the mind train the mind?

In my opinion it has no function to drop this self. In awareness one should become aware of the self, and by awareness one can have the self to have its function as it has, taking care daily life, cos the self is not disfunctional, the self is just sometimes interfering where it should not interfere and this we can be aware of.

It makes me think of someone who is working as an officeworker and notice his or her physical condition is not very well.

What is good to do?

Stop working as an office worker?

Stop working as an officeworker and start sporting 8 hours a day?

Continue to work as an office worker and sport for some time every day when possible?

When the mind has become more expansive and receptive and let go of the need to grasp or react to experience and believe the concepts it creates about the world are true, to reach this more natural state, what is this natural state then telling other about a person one meets again , what is this changed state then telling about the world around one self, the objects of this world?

How does this state then inform the person about former lifes?

[Brucenkhamen]

I thought everyone had agreed that there is a "real self", but as progress is hindered due to attachment to ego then we drop the self conceptually.

Without a real self (hidden) there is no point in anything as the self we are conscious of is conditioned and impermanent and ends upon death.

If there is no self beyond what we currently see, then why spend a lifetime depriving oneself?

If so I missed that thread, it's off topic for this thread so if you want to discuss it best to start another one.

[rockyysdt]

I thought everyone had agreed that there is a "real self", but as progress is hindered due to attachment to ego then we drop the self conceptually.

Without a real self (hidden) there is no point in anything as the self we are conscious of is conditioned and impermanent and ends upon death.

If there is no self beyond what we currently see, then why spend a lifetime depriving oneself?

If so I missed that thread, it's off topic for this thread so if you want to discuss it best to start another one.

Hi Bruce.

I thought it would be very much on topic as you've included "no self" in your explanation.

Quote: For a start there is no self, so the term self or "self awareness" is just a relative concept, and there is no self to get enlightened. This is how we reflect on our experience.

If "no self" doesn't hold then the explanation might be considered invalid??

This is what FabianFred has previously written:

Aren't we all Impermanent & Conditioned & there is nothing inside to become enlightened?

why would you think this?? Everything still not in nirvana is impermanent and conditioned....but we do have a something which takes rebirth and is led through the chain of existences by our karma

This is what Camerata has previously written:

"Impermanent" doesn't mean something doesn't exist, it can mean it is constantly changing.

The Buddha said that "you" can attain enlightenment, but he didn't precisely define what "you" is, AFAIK. If you demand an explanation of who/what you are, you'll never get anywhere because "you" is constantly changing. Nibbana is unconditioned, so the fact that your mind is conditioned at present is irrelevant. At the moment of enlightenment, "you" in the conventional sense cease to exist. Anatta doesn't mean "there's nothing inside," it means the self isn't what you normally take it to be. Ajahn Amaro has a good MP3 talk on this.

Edited November 30, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

I thought it would be very much on topic as you've included "no self" in your explanation.

I should have used the term not self instead of no self, the point being that to declare "To me there is a self absolutely" when the practice is to see all conditioned things or all experience in terms of them being not self is inappropriate.

That's all I'll say on the subject on a thread entitled Awareness of the Awareness.

[christiaan]

Some people use 'mind' where other people use 'self'

Mind however is only a part of the self since feeling is also a part of our self.

And feeling is not the same as the mind allthough we can have our mind be aware of our (self) feeling.

When the practice is to see all conditioned things or all experience in terms of them being not self is inappropriate, I stil wonder who and what is choosing to do this practice and to be active in this practice.

I would say the practice has to be 'seeing' all the conditioned and all the unconditioned things since awareness is awareness and should not discriminate in being aware.

When a person is choosing to discriminate in awareness it is possible this is done out of a concept, out of a Budhist? conditioning of the self.

[sabaijai]

I wonder what or who the speaker was responding to. I don't know any Buddhists or any meditators who believe that sati or mindfulness is the be-all and end-all of Buddhist practice.

Sati must be established as wisdom (paññā), as was taught by the Buddha. And paññā must be supported by sila (morality) and samathi (concentration).

from http://glossary.buddhistdoor.com/word/4016/panna

paññā: 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanā, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbāna (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattā) of all forms of existence. Further details, s. under tilakkhaṇa.

With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cintā-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on learning (suta-mayā-paññā), knowledge based on mental development (bhāvanā-mayā-paññā) (D. 33).

" 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appanā, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV).

Wisdom is one of the 5 mental faculties (s. bala), one of the 3 kinds of training (sikkhā, q.v.), and one of the perfections (s. pāramī).

[rockyysdt]

Practicing "awareness of our awareness" to me sounds like what we in Zen would call, "chasing mind with mind".

Perhaps it could be considered a koan.

[christiaan]

awareness of awareness is Self awareness.

Animals can be aware of many physical phenomenons in and around them that are related to their survival of life, but an animal doesnot have selfawareness.

When an animal would have selfawareness this would meran they would be aware of their awareness, but they are not.

A physical existence on earth having awareness of its awareness is called a human.

As I wrote before awarenes is he only activity that can be directed at and be active towards itself.

So therefore awareness has no beginning and no end, it is not depending on anything outside itself becos it is existing in itself, awareness is the Alpha and the Omega.

I do understand Bhuddism telling this in the Buddhist way, and at this point in the development of humanity people in general can reach levels of pure awareness (for some time) when meditating and practicing in a good way.

This meditating and practicing all come out of the self to enter a spiritual situation where the self is not present - for the time being - anymore and where we still can be aware of pure awareness.

In a far away future humans can more and more live within a state of spiritual awareness to become and more spititual beings to become completely spiritual being at the end.

Some people, like the Buddha's are the fore runners in this development, we now enter a future where more and more humans could enter a more intense, actual and pure spiritual awareness.

We could name this changing situation a situation of selfeducation. Every person who is entering in awareness a situation of selfeducation is very close to pure spiritual awareness, close to awareness meeting awareness in deeper and deeper experience.

Selfeducation is a key, probably THE key.

[Brucenkhamen]

awareness of awareness is Self awareness.

This may be true when speaking in the vernacular however in Buddhism it has a specific meaning of being aware that the process of awareness is functioning.

As I wrote before awarenes is he only activity that can be directed at and be active towards itself.

So therefore awareness has no beginning and no end, it is not depending on anything outside itself becos it is existing in itself, awareness is the Alpha and the Omega.

This is not Buddhism, Buddhism teaches that all things arise according to causes and conditions.

This meditating and practicing all come out of the self to enter a spiritual situation where the self is not present - for the time being - anymore and where we still can be aware of pure awareness.

I expect it probably feels like that but in reality it's a dropping of the conceptual framework that we understand as "self".

In a far away future humans can more and more live within a state of spiritual awareness to become and more spititual beings to become completely spiritual being at the end.

Some people, like the Buddha's are the fore runners in this development, we now enter a future where more and more humans could enter a more intense, actual and pure spiritual awareness.

We could name this changing situation a situation of selfeducation. Every person who is entering in awareness a situation of selfeducation is very close to pure spiritual awareness, close to awareness meeting awareness in deeper and deeper experience.

Selfeducation is a key, probably THE key.

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius

You're just making this up.

[christiaan]

christiaan, on 2010-12-05 16:52, said:

This meditating and practicing all come out of the self to enter a spiritual situation where the self is not present - for the time being - anymore and where we still can be aware of pure awareness.

I expect it probably feels like that but in reality it's a dropping of the conceptual framework that we understand as "self".

christiaan:

It is not only or probably feeling like that, as an actual inner experience, it is also actualy a dropping of some conceptual framework done by the self. That actual dropping, as an inner experience is a proces, a proces of and within awareness.

When it is a dropping of the conceptual framework that we understand as "self", WHO is doing so?

The dropping has a cause!

What is the cause? The mind? Who's mind? Your mind? Someone else's mind? Or just mind?

When someone tells me it is just the mind that is dropping conceptual frameworks. I would say we could judge this to be something made up, an illusion, just an other concept inside some filosophical framework.

Why?

The actual experience, not an abstract concept, is that awareness is an individual inner activity inside a human existence. Nobody can be aware FOR you to make you more aware.

Even when somebody else would become aware for you, like Buddha did in his way, you can only become aware of what he became aware of by your inner active awareness.

In other words: when you do not come to awareness by your Self you will not become aware at all !!

The actual experience, not an abstract concept, is that mind, being mindfull is an inner individual human activity. When somebodys mind would be mindfull for you, like Buddha did in his way, you can only become mindfull in the way he did became mindfull by being mindfull your Self.

In other words: when you do not become mindfull by your self you will never become mindfull at all !!

In my view the teachings of Buddha are no magic spiritual spell taking the responsibillity away from the individual.

The life(s) of Siddhartha Gautama clearly showed that he, in inner activity, reached inner awareness, making him free of his inner self.

Dawnings of Aquarius is what I would call speaking in vernecular, but beside that it is just labelling,

Labelling is not helpfull to reach clearness and insight,