The Final Moment

[camerata]

It seems that all traditions hold that the final moment before death is a critical factor determining a person's future rebirth. For example:

"Through Buddhist doctrine we are told by Buddhist masters that the final moment of our consciousness is paramount, the most important moment of all. If the ill person is in hospital and the diagnosis is grim that the person cannot possibly survived, the family should call in the Buddhist priest to pray for the loved one so that at the final moment, the right state of mind has been generated within the person and they can find their way into a higher state of rebirth as they leave the present lives."

I wonder where this idea comes from? It seems like a way of "cheating" karma if you can make a supreme effort to be in a good mental state just before death and get a better rebirth as a result.

[thaibebop]

You might disagree with me, but I always saw in Buddhism no salvation and no forgiveness. I like this, as Chirstian said that you could murder all your life yet on death row claim repentace and still get to God. I felt that produced weakness, or people saying I can do bad thing then be forgiven. I like Karma, what is done is done and you will feel the effects of that action. I should make people stop and think about what they do before they do it.

I can't tell you where or how something like this got started in Buddhism but, I am not surprised. People like to cheat. They try to cheat death why wouldn't they try to cheat what death might bring?

[longway]

I finished a book on buddhism by karen someone about a month ago, am going to read it again soon so i can understand and remember some of the concepts of buddhism better. i think its a good book, could be wrong tho..

From what I understood, the Buddha did not say that if you do bad things then you will have to pay for it, as accounted by some kind of universal balancing mechanism, tho i dont think he said it didnt happen.

He said that our actions can be skilful or unskilful, ie help us reach nirvana or the opposite. a lifetime of skilful/ unskilful actions has a profound effect on the mind and this state of mind forms the seed of the personality in the next life.

So a person with a lifetime of unskilful actions would have a state of mind and therefore personality in the next life that took him further away from nirvana and thus prolonging his suffering, skilful actions would lead to a personality better suited to reach nirvana and escape the suffering inherent in life. The state of mind at death is very important, but it would very difficult for a man with a lifetime of unskilful actions escape his karma (ie actions).

I hope that makes sense. I confess that I dont remember everything, so could have it wrong, but this is my understanding of his teachiing so far.

he also talked about making merit too, in terms of what lay people would earn by helping monks, family and society, but i cant remember anymore exactly what..

[sabaijai]

I finished a book on buddhism by karen someone about a month ago, am going to read it again soon so i can understand and remember some of the concepts of buddhism better. i think its a good book, could be wrong tho..

From what I understood, the Buddha did not say that if you do bad things then you will have to pay for it, as accounted by some kind of universal balancing mechanism, tho i dont think he said it didnt happen.

He said that our actions can be skilful or unskilful, ie help us reach nirvana or the opposite. a lifetime of skilful/ unskilful actions has a profound effect on the mind and this state of mind forms the seed of the personality in the next life.

So a person with a lifetime of unskilful actions would have a state of mind and therefore personality in the next life that took him further away from nirvana and thus prolonging his suffering, skilful actions would lead to a  personality better suited to reach nirvana and escape the suffering inherent in life. The state of mind at death is very important, but it would very difficult for a man with a lifetime of unskilful actions escape his karma (ie actions).

I hope that makes sense. I confess that I dont remember everything, so could have it wrong, but this is my understanding of his teachiing so far.

he also talked about making merit too, in terms of what lay people would earn by helping monks, family and society, but i cant remember anymore exactly what..

From what I understand of orthodox Theravada Buddhism, what you've written sums it up pretty well. Kamma creates vipaka (the result of kamma) and it can't be avoided. Plus as you imply, your kamma conditions your habituations , which are not likely to change a lot at the moment before your death.

Then again, who knows, contemplation of the body's demise might help sati pierce nama and rupa with keen insight and achieve stream entry, which means at most seven more lives.

One of those questions that may not tend to full edification.

One life or many? Final moment? Camerata you're into some deep questions these days!

[camerata]

One life or many? Final moment? Camerata you're into some deep questions these days!

This one came up because I already knew this idea of the doing the right thing in the last moment was a central theme in early Japanese Buddhism. The Pure Land schools refined it to such an extent that Amida's name had to be the last sound you uttered if you wanted to get into his Western Paradise. But recently I was surprised to come across the idea in one of Aj Brahm's talks. I guess the question I wanted to ask is whether it is part of Theravada tradition or not, and if it originates in something the Buddha said.

[Nordlys]

"Through Buddhist doctrine we are told by Buddhist masters that the final moment of our consciousness is paramount, the most important moment of all.  If the ill person is in hospital and the diagnosis is grim that the person cannot possibly survived, the family should call in the Buddhist priest to pray for the loved one so that at the final moment, the right state of mind has been generated within the person and they can find their way into a higher state of rebirth as they leave the present lives."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I've read a similar story in Bangkok Post "perspective" awhile ago that that's exactly what the Bangkwang prison Buddhist priest teaches the death row inmates, that how lucky it is of them to know when they are dying and be able to prepare themselves for the death, that the state of mind they are in at the time of the death determines their next incarnation.

Edited August 16, 2005 by Nordlys

[Neeranam]

Good question!

I'm not sure about the state before dying and how it affects the afterlife.

I know many Hindus believe it is very important.

I have often wondered about the person on morphine, who is in a blissful, peaceful state. How will that affect them?

What would a Buddhist monk say if someone was in hospital dying, don't give them drugs?

[Thai-Aust]

Good question!

I'm not sure about the state before dying and how it affects the afterlife.

I know many Hindus believe it is very important.

I have often wondered about the person on morphine, who is in a blissful, peaceful state. How will that affect them?

What would a Buddhist monk say if someone was in hospital dying, don't give them drugs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My mum passed away almost a year ago alone in a hospital bed. She was in pain from cancer and doctor gave her morphine, then she fell to sleep and never woke up. At first, I was upset with doctor who gave her morphine, but then again I thought she passed away peacefully, without any pain, without any children she passionately cared about to stir her final state of mind. A few months ago I dreamt about her going to a temple to do praying as she would normally do when she was in this world. I guess she wanted to say that she was in peace now, don’t worry about her. Some may not believe in this cross over but I always see my mum in dreams and she would let me know if something significantly to happen.

I’ve read an article from some website which was said by a well-known monk and transcribed by lay persons. If a dying person has no prospect of prolong life without invasive treatment, that person should be offered an option to go peacefully. (I have this article and am willing to share if interested. It's in Thai though. It also mentioned that you can't cheat karma just before you die.) Some doctors have been practicing this assisting suicide with or without a request from patients and families.

[camerata]

Ayya Khema gives a pretty clear explanation of the importance of the last moment of life. She says that "it doesn't mean that past kamma is eliminated, only that our new birth situation is affected," and the last thoughts will "give us our new direction." So a "favorable rebirth" in this case to her means that we start out with a more wholesome state of mind.

Still, it's difficult to see how this would make any difference unless the rebirth is as a human.

She also mentions Sabaijai's point that it may be easier to let go in the final moments before death and achieve stream-entry.

I guess the real value of this teaching is that if we concentrate on wholesome thoughts we'll avoid the dukkha that usually comes with the fear of imminent death.

[Mr. Farang]

If the Buddha was asked this same question, he would have said something like this (as he often did in reply to similar questions):

"Why do you fill your mind with questions of death and rebirth? There is much work to be done moment-to-moment in following the Eight Fold Path!"

[camerata]

According to Ayya Khema, the Buddha gave the following simile to depict the mind-moments at death:

"If there is a herd of cows locked in a barn, and the barn door is opened, the cow that is the strongest will go out first. If there isn't one like that, then the one who is the habitual leader will go out first; if there is no habitual leader then the one nearest the door will go out first. If there is none like that, they will all try to go out at the same time."

But I wonder if this (presumably scriptural reference) is the basis for the widespread belief that one's final thoughts have a particular effect on the next life.

[soi lurker]

If the Buddha was asked this same question, he would have said something like this (as he often did in reply to similar questions):

"Why do you fill your mind with questions of death and rebirth?  There is much work to be done moment-to-moment in following the Eight Fold Path!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its what happens now that will define everything.....

[Abandon]

I finished a book on buddhism by karen someone about a month ago, am going to read it again soon so i can understand and remember some of the concepts of buddhism better. i think its a good book, could be wrong tho..

From what I understood, the Buddha did not say that if you do bad things then you will have to pay for it, as accounted by some kind of universal balancing mechanism, tho i dont think he said it didnt happen.

He said that our actions can be skilful or unskilful, ie help us reach nirvana or the opposite. a lifetime of skilful/ unskilful actions has a profound effect on the mind and this state of mind forms the seed of the personality in the next life.

So a person with a lifetime of unskilful actions would have a state of mind and therefore personality in the next life that took him further away from nirvana and thus prolonging his suffering, skilful actions would lead to a  personality better suited to reach nirvana and escape the suffering inherent in life. The state of mind at death is very important, but it would very difficult for a man with a lifetime of unskilful actions escape his karma (ie actions).

I hope that makes sense. I confess that I dont remember everything, so could have it wrong, but this is my understanding of his teachiing so far.

he also talked about making merit too, in terms of what lay people would earn by helping monks, family and society, but i cant remember anymore exactly what..

couldn't have said it better myself.

The final moments are crucial, more so in Tibetan buddhism than theravada. At death the primary karma that will seed it's result is the Garuka Karma - Heavy karma. This is the current feeling and attachment at the time of death, and it is this weighty karma that can be used to catapult the person into higher realms, or even stream entry.

Then is the bahula karma - habitual karma. this is the accumulative character that you have developed in your lifetimeeg, a kind person, short tempered etc....

Assanna karma - Proximate karma is dependent on the circumstances around you eg stories of frogs seeing a buddha rupa and being reborn as humans. I see this as the environment at the point of death. It is also related (same???) as patisonti karma - linking consciousness that takes one to the next rebirth

Katatta karma is the final of the 4 rebirth karmas, and is the lightest as it is made up from the actions we have made without intention - I guss kinda fridge karma.....

Anyway, this is enough to see that different kinds of karma carry different weights, and that they give their results in a prioritised order.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Pandit

[camerata]

I had an interesting experience on Saturday. Entering the Emporium food market in a rush and turning left into the fruit section, I suddenly found myself floating in the air. I looked down at my right foot and saw it rising. Everything was happening in slow motion. As I watched my foot, I knew that I'd slipped and was falling backward to the left, and there wasn't anything I could do about it. The weird thing was that I felt totally relaxed and unworried. I knew that something was being "taken care of" beneath me. This seemed to go on for several seconds.

When I hit the ground, it still felt gentle and in slow motion. I'm pretty sure my left wrist took the weight, my elbow bent and my head hit my forearm. So I kind of bounced a little, like when a tree falls. I sat up still feeling relaxed - as relaxed as I have sometimes after a long acupuncture session. And none of the normal adrenaline rush or jangling nerves. In fact, I didn't want to stand up immediately, but the Emporium staff dragged me up and quickly propelled me on my way, no doubt concerned at the sight of a farang stretched out in the fruit section with slippery fruit juice on the floor.

This would have been an unusual event at any time, but in this case as soon as I sat up I knew what had happened - after I'd lost balance my mind had just let go. A month ago I'd read Phra Farang, in which the author mentions how his mind let go on a couple of occasions. A week ago I'd finished one of Buddhadhasa Bhikkhu's books which has a section on letting go at the time of death. And that same morning I'd been reading one of John Blofeld's books.

So it seems that even in something as mundane as a fall, the mind can let go involuntarily when it is the appropriate thing to do. This experience has given me an added perspective on what Buddhadhasa had to say about letting go at the time of death:

"This is the skillful means to cheat nature a little. When the time has really come for the mind to cease, revive the feeling that nothing anywhere is worth having or being. If that feeling is present in the mind at the moment it ceases, it will reach nibbana inevitably. Have the body and mind cease with the feeling that nothing is worth having or being, then it will realize nibbana in that physical death itself. What a deal: making such a tiny investment, yet certain of the best results! [...] This is how people of little knowledge must practice at the moment of physical death. [...] We call it the trick of turning a fall from a ladder into a calculated leap."

[Abandon]

you sure you had not been drinking a little of that juice yourself?? hehe

I had a strong insight when falling too, though a little different. There was the fear and the rush etc.. and I put my arms out to grab a tree and managed to control my slip down the steep bank. But by the time I had any realisation of what was happening, I was already half way down the bank. Then I saw that the 'me' the 'consciousness' was such a small thing, and though it claims all the credit for running the body, in fact it has almost nothing to do with it. It (body?) knew what was happening and made all the best reactions it could way before 'I' got involved.

Ramana Maharshi said 'let god run everything. "I" cannot do anything anymore' That is when I realised the the self can be completely given up.

[thaibebop]

I guess I have a few experiences like these, but it was always after the fact. Like when I should have been saying ouch or what have you, my state was completely calm and I was unfazed, like some part of me knew that whatever happened didn't matter anf there was no reason to get exicted.

[ThaiPauly]

I appreciate what is being said here about preparing for "The Final Moment" but how can you prepare for it if for instance you have a massive heart attack or a fatal road accident?

It does happen, How can one's mind be prepared for that?

I suppose somebody may say, "Live every moment as if it was your last and be mindful that anything can happen at any time"

I would be interested to hear your theories on this

TP

[chownah]

I appreciate what is being said here about preparing for "The Final Moment" but how can you prepare for it if for instance you have a massive heart attack or a fatal road accident?

It does happen, How can one's mind be prepared for that?

I suppose somebody may say, "Live every moment as if it was your last and be mindful that anything can happen at any time"

I would be interested to hear your theories on this

TP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How to prepare for death? Since this is the Buddhist forum I guess the answer would be to learn about the Buddha's teachings. But in a wider sense I would say to do whatever seems to make sense to you to learn about whatever spiritual qualities you believe you might have....and "Live every moment as if it was your last and be mindful that anything can happen at any time", just as you said above.

I've been thinking a bit about this thread and my latest idea is that since it is some Buddhists that think that the last moment before death is so important, it should be the same Buddhists who also realize that rebirth will come around and they can keep working on their progress later....I guess..... Why not just keep working toward progress all through your life (it doesn't cost anything and can be done virtually anytime and anywhere and requires no expensive equipment or membership fees) and then you won't have to worry about that last moment.

[camerata]

I appreciate what is being said here about preparing for "The Final Moment" but how can you prepare for it if for instance you have a massive heart attack or a fatal road accident?

Buddhahasa Bhikkhu covers this situation. According to him, even in a traffic accident there is nearly always a moment or two of awareness before death and, for those who have been practising, it's enough time to let go. "Through having previously developed the feeling that there is nothing worth having or being until it is completely fluent and natural, you will be able to bring it to mind for that split second before the end."

Less convincingly, he says that "even when the body meets death with no opportunity to think or feel anything, if this awareness has been continually present, there will be nirodha (the permanent extinguishing of everything that causes dukkha).

But he does make a good case for not prolonging one's life for a few hours with all kinds of drug injections. Better to die mindfully without the fuss and without the drugs.

[Abandon]

maybe it helps to consider that, in Buddhism at least, there is no final moment. You are considering the transitory moment around the time of death.

[robitusson]

But he does make a good case for not prolonging one's life for a few hours with all kinds of drug injections. Better to die mindfully without the fuss and without the drugs.

Very few that can die like that if you get hospital treatment when you're dying. Dying people often have a "syringe driver" attatched to them which gives a slow release of morphine for hours or even days while they're dying. So they're high as kites while they die. Would it be better to let people die in agony on the off-chance they may be able to enter into a mental state conducive to Buddhist teachings?

[Gohonzon]

I'm a little suprised that his may be part of the Theravadan tradition as well. However, in the final moments the amount of life affiming positivity of our state of mind at the point of death - will indeed not only determine our next rebirth but also the length of time between the state of latency and rebirth. As I understand it if ones mind is full of the right sort of positive thought then instant rebirth is possible.

As ideal as it would be to die surrounded by the sounds of Dharma and prayers to aid us through our journey, this is of coure not always possible. Therefore, it is important to build a storehouse of value created ( merit ) and the right state of mnd in the present and on each and every day with constant practice.

My own experiences of being very ill is that ,almost involuntarily, the sound of Nam-myho-rege-kyo has been my only level of consciousness. I made no effort whatsoever to think of , let alone chant this mantra. This almost confirmed to me that when I die it is the sound of universal Dharma and the amount of practice engaged in at present will that be the most influentual aspect of future rebirth.

[camerata]

Here's a relevant quote (from the Pali Canon) on mindful dying that I came across today:

"If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and regularly practised, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will pass consciously, not unconciously."

[mapletree]

Camerata wrote:

This would have been an unusual event at any time, but in this case as soon as I sat up I knew what had happened - after I'd lost balance my mind had just let go. A month ago I'd read Phra Farang, in which the author mentions how his mind let go on a couple of occasions. A week ago I'd finished one of Buddhadhasa Bhikkhu's books which has a section on letting go at the time of death. And that same morning I'd been reading one of John Blofeld's books.

So it seems that even in something as mundane as a fall, the mind can let go involuntarily when it is the appropriate thing to do. This experience has given me an added perspective on what Buddhadhasa had to say about letting go at the time of death:

________________________________________________________________________________

__________________________

I had a dream like this recently in which an elevator I was riding in was projected out into the air and I knew that I and others in it would crash and die. It became very clear to me that this was the moment that I could slip into oblivion (as when I parachuted in awake life for the first time and lost awareness for several seconds) or stay present and mindful, control my mind as I do in deep meditation. In the dream I was choosing to stay aware into the moment of body-death. I think that is what you are writing about, yes? The point is to control the direction of your energy as you would, say, if you were rafting in white water rapids. You have to focus, concentrate, and stay with it. Challenging but do-able with practice, na? No doubt one gets better at it over time.

Edited December 5, 2006 by mapletree

[Grover]

I have heard people say that in the moments before death (minutes, hours, days, weeks), when death is knocking on their door so to speak, they have a better chance of entering into the present moment, in a spiritual way. Their impeding death shakes them out of their lifetime of slumber. Suddenly they realise what living is all about...

I think this is why some teachers emphasise knowledge and intimacy with the death concept in day to day life. The key to living, they say is being close with death; acknowledging its imminent possiblity in the deepest possible way. Perhaps, at a stretch, this is what the meaning could be in the OPs post.

I am not sure the Buddha emphasised this and to what extent.

Edited December 5, 2006 by Grover

[khaojao]

hi...

here's an interesting documentation about a person's last moments...recorded by Ven. Rastrapal Mahathera called the Five Visions of a Dying Man

perhaps this could prove an interesting read?

http://www.bps.lk/bodhi_leaves_library/bl_150.html

with metta.

Edited December 7, 2006 by khaojao

[camerata]

In the dream I was choosing to stay aware into the moment of body-death. I think that is what you are writing about, yes?

Not in that particular incident - I was really just an observer there. But I know what you mean. I have had one experience where I felt I might lose consciousness, and in the back of my mind I was aware of the story in which a woman drugged Ananda and he countered the drug's effects by meditating. So I made a big effort to stay aware of the present moment.