Thai Students Score Poor Marks In World Survey

[canuckamuck]

Ok I read that and it says students from Tawain and China made the highest scores. Also says that the Thai students are from Bangkok Christian College isn't this Thailands equivalent to Oxford in England not exactly the run of the mill school for thais. I would say a school for the children of the extreemly wealthy in Thailand and the elite.

What is the point of testing kids from nontypical schools?

If these kids were all from elite schools, then this info is hardly useful to the average Joe or Somchai.

Interesting to note though (if this is true) that even the top dogs here are chasing the hind tit.

[Bagwan]

Ok I read that and it says students from Tawain and China made the highest scores.  Also says that the Thai students are from Bangkok Christian College isn't this Thailands equivalent to Oxford in England not exactly the run of the mill school for thais.  I would say a school for the children of the extreemly wealthy in Thailand and the elite.

I can unequivocally assure you that Bangkok Christian College has NOTHING in common with Oxford University. OU was first established in the 13th century and was the first university in the English speaking world. It comprises 38 independent colleges and has an unsullied reputation for excellence. Comparing the two would be similar to comparing Pattaya United with FC Barcelona.   :jap:

[cup-O-coffee]

Ok I read that and it says students from Tawain and China made the highest scores. Also says that the Thai students are from Bangkok Christian College isn't this Thailands equivalent to Oxford in England not exactly the run of the mill school for thais. I would say a school for the children of the extreemly wealthy in Thailand and the elite.

I can unequivocally assure you that Bangkok Christian College has NOTHING in common with Oxford University. OU was first established in the 13th century and was the first university in the English speaking world. It comprises 38 independent colleges and has an unsullied reputation for excellence. Comparing the two would be similar to comparing Pattaya United with FC Barcelona. :jap:

With all due respect, Bagwan, it reads to me that M.T.B. is saying that B.C.C. is Thailand's answer to O.U.; never attainable, yet as best as they can produce.

[Bagwan]

Ok I read that and it says students from Tawain and China made the highest scores.  Also says that the Thai students are from Bangkok Christian College isn't this Thailands equivalent to Oxford in England not exactly the run of the mill school for thais.  I would say a school for the children of the extreemly wealthy in Thailand and the elite.

I can unequivocally assure you that Bangkok Christian College has NOTHING in common with Oxford University. OU was first established in the 13th century and was the first university in the English speaking world. It comprises 38 independent colleges and has an unsullied reputation for excellence. Comparing the two would be similar to comparing Pattaya United with FC Barcelona.    :jap:

With all due respect, Bagwan, it reads to me that M.T.B. is saying that B.C.C. is Thailand's answer to O.U.; never attainable, yet as best as they can produce.

Thank you for your courteous response CoC. At the risk of being accused of wanting to form a CoC appreciation society, I would like to say how much I appreciate your postings.which tend to follow my line of thought. Not too sure whether that is a compliment or not though. 

My reading of MTB's post differs from yours but then the lack of punctuation does nothing to assist in understanding. BCC must be particularly outstanding in Thai terms to warrant mention in the same sentence as OU - or Cambridge,Yale, Harvard, The Sorbonne. I stop here as my brain hurts.  

BCC would be doing well, in Thai terms, if they bear comparison with Little Piddling in the Stream Polytechnic. If MTB is Thailand's answer to any of the developed world's prominent universities, where does that leave Ramkhamhaeng, Chulalongkorn and Mahidol? We may have opened a jar full of worms here - or Pandora's Box.

P.S. If the graduates of UK universities that have been interviewed by me over the years are typical, then God help the UK in the coming years.

[atyclb]

I am not here to judge or criticize. Teachers I have known have shared alarming stuff. Being told to pass every student regardless of passing or failing grades. How motivated can students be knowing they will pass and advance even if they don't learn/study anything, not to mention the consequences to society and the future.

Critical thinking does not seem to be something that is part of much of the society. Society is largely passive. I have heard educators at high end expensive universities stress the term "critical thinking" during lectures. Sadly educational quality is highly skewed in favor of those with money. As others have mentioned, parental influence is also important.

Enlightened Thai friends echo comments on this thread but even for them, effecting meaningful improvement is not easy.

Anyway, these are just reflections based on what I have observed. I do drive myself crazy thinking about it nor am I preoccupied with it.

[Scott]

Let's take care not to start naming and shaming schools. Bangkok Christian College is not a University and as such, can't be compared to any University. I've known a few teachers who taught there. Some had bad experiences and some (still there) had good experiences. Overall, none of them complained about the actual academic side of the school, but then all of them had taught at other schools in Thailand and some of those schools were measurably worse.

It seems that Thailand, for all the money and talk, is not doing quite enough to get the overall of standard of education to a satisfactory level.

[Bagwan]

It seems that Thailand, for all the money and talk, is not doing quite enough to get the overall of standard of education to a satisfactory level.

Is this typically British understatement? Thailand isn't doing anything like enough to raise the level of education -  if indeed anything productive. 

[Xangsamhua]

I've been away for a few days, but looking at the way this thread has gone it appears futile to have any kind of level-headed and unemotive discussion on Thai education.

The OP reports the continuing poor performance of Thai kids on PISA. Cue posts about the failures of Thai schools and teachers. Then one poster (Samrit) says they can't all be bad (or be all bad) because there are frequent cases of Thai kids doing well in academic olympiads. Xangsamhua makes the point that this is so, but they tend to be kids at top schools; however they show that Thai kids can do well if taught well. Somebody (Cup-of-coffee?) questions these performances and asks for cases. Xangsamhua provides cases (minus one deleted because it refers to the unmentionable media outlet). CoC poo-poos that because (i) they're only kids and (ii) they come from the top schools :sleepy: Somebody says Bangkok Christian is the Thai version of Oxford University. That gets sorted out, up to a point. More general complaints follow about the quality of Thai schools. Somewhere in that, Scott affirms that kids can do well if coached, but maybe at the expense of other important things (much like the criticisms levelled at high stakes testing in the US, as in One Child Left Behind). And so it goes on.

Well, it's only a thread on an open forum, so who cares? But these threads can be coherent and informative if people make an effort to actually read earlier threads and try to follow the argument. And it would be nice if people could be open to some balance. Thais do very well at things they think are important in education. They don't do so well at the things Westerners think should take priority. Maybe they should adopt a more Western mentality and set of priorities. Then they could have two major wars with 55 million dead and a devasating economic depression in a century. Like Europeans, they could experience spiritual and cultural collapse with Islamification to fill the gap. Like Britain, they could experience a substantial decline in their PISA scores, from 7th in 2000 to 25th in 2009. Perhaps they should adopt the British model.

Oh well ... bah, humbug. I haven't time to go on. Just to reiterate though, that Thai kids can achieve lots if they are motivated and well taught. Obviously they have a long way to go at the measurable skills in literacy, numeracy, maths and science. But not all educational goals and outcomes lend themselves to testing and quantifiable outcomes.

[canuckamuck]

Obviously they have a long way to go at the measurable skills in literacy, numeracy, maths and science. But not all educational goals and outcomes lend themselves to testing and quantifiable outcomes.

This is true, they color between the lines very well and have great memorization skills.

[Xangsamhua]

Obviously they have a long way to go at the measurable skills in literacy, numeracy, maths and science. But not all educational goals and outcomes lend themselves to testing and quantifiable outcomes.

This is true, they color between the lines very well and have great memorization skills.

Groan .... I know I should give up and just go laughingly with the flow, but I recently experienced three days of the most remarkable display of Thai kids' multiple intelligences in the verbal-linguistic, bodily-kinaesthetic, musical, visual, intrapersonal and interpersonal fields. Three days of dance, drama (in English), jazz, classical, mime, stunning costumery (and cheap to make/put together), big bands, small ensembles, ballet, voice - the lot, and this was from just one school! All of which was assisted by high motivation and good teaching/mentoring, of course.

There wasn't much maths and science in it, however. It was clearly an expression of visual and performing arts. Perhaps the whole performance of talent and teamwork should be condemned as a result.

Incidentally, I wouldn't be too complacent about Western students' ability in the sciences. The report below is from Australia, which finished a creditable 9th in the PISA rankings.

http://www.abc.net.a.../13/3092013.htm

Edited December 13, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[SamritT]

Thanks Xangsamhua. You are such a hero. Every Farang in here was just laughing at me. That is OK. But they were also laughing at Thai Kids stupidity, which I find it a little hard to bear. Thanks Xangsamhua.

[canuckamuck]

Thanks Xangsamhua. You are such a hero. Every Farang in here was just laughing at me. That is OK. But they were also laughing at Thai Kids stupidity, which I find it a little hard to bear. Thanks Xangsamhua.

Nobody is criticizing the kids or laughing at them, Young Thai children are just as smart and have just as much potential as any other kids. But then they are stuffed into a system that sucks out all of their curiosity and creativity and teaches them to fall in line and just accept everything as is. It's a zombie assembly line. Mind you, they seem pretty happy for zombies.

Same thing happens to some expats too.

[Phatcharanan]

Bangkok Christian College...........an elite school.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

[Scott]

Xangsamhua, sorry if the thread isn't progressing. There is a lot to be said about education and simply trashing it isn't very productive. I've been involved in education here for a number of years and I do see some glaring problems. What is good, unfortunately, is terribly outdated--at least in some schools.

1. Nationalism: One of the major reasons that schools exist is to promote the values of the culture. Thailand does this a little too well. Fortunately, this little exercise isn't particularly time consuming.

2. Hand writing and other fine motor control related exercises: Every Thai teacher I have ever met can write beautifully. They can do calligraphy and write report cards for hours and their handwriting never deteriorates. Students have this beautiful handwriting and neatness drummed into them as well. My handwriting is legible and OK, but not beautiful. Some of my messiest students can write more beautifully than I can. Spelling and grammar, however, are lacking.

3. Attention to detail: This is extremely important. Everything from fingernails to hair, to clean, well pressed school uniforms is stressed.

Numbers 2 and 3 are not the end all or be all of education, but I have had a few minor surgeries and that attention to detail and fine motor coordination does make a difference. I should have scars, I don't.

The goals need to be expanded and these can be encouraged, but it doesn't need to stop there. As it is now, it often does.

It's not Westerners who think the education system should change; it's the Thais who get upset about it. If they don't mind have a nation fully prepared to work in the rice fields, it's OK with me. But there is a lot of money spent to get poor academic results. That is the problem.

[mark45y]

Xangsamhua, sorry if the thread isn't progressing. There is a lot to be said about education and simply trashing it isn't very productive. I've been involved in education here for a number of years and I do see some glaring problems. What is good, unfortunately, is terribly outdated--at least in some schools.

1. Nationalism: One of the major reasons that schools exist is to promote the values of the culture. Thailand does this a little too well. Fortunately, this little exercise isn't particularly time consuming.

2. Hand writing and other fine motor control related exercises: Every Thai teacher I have ever met can write beautifully. They can do calligraphy and write report cards for hours and their handwriting never deteriorates. Students have this beautiful handwriting and neatness drummed into them as well. My handwriting is legible and OK, but not beautiful. Some of my messiest students can write more beautifully than I can. Spelling and grammar, however, are lacking.

3. Attention to detail: This is extremely important. Everything from fingernails to hair, to clean, well pressed school uniforms is stressed.

Numbers 2 and 3 are not the end all or be all of education, but I have had a few minor surgeries and that attention to detail and fine motor coordination does make a difference. I should have scars, I don't.

The goals need to be expanded and these can be encouraged, but it doesn't need to stop there. As it is now, it often does.

It's not Westerners who think the education system should change; it's the Thais who get upset about it. If they don't mind have a nation fully prepared to work in the rice fields, it's OK with me. But there is a lot of money spent to get poor academic results. That is the problem.

Don't forget coloring. Thai High School students can color amoung the best. I imagine if a test were given to determine coloring ability Thai students would be near the top. I found when I had a rowdy class if I gave them a cartoon to color everyone mellowed out immediately even the hard core unruly students loved to color. They are not much with crayons but with colored pencils they shine using all sorts of advanced coloring techniques like adding water and different textures. I have never seen grown people get so immersed in something. And you are absolutely correct about the hand writing and calligraphy. I felt ashamed even with all my degrees little kids could write longhand better than I both in English and Thai. I could never tell the difference between a one and seven but that is some foreign plot to write ones with a flag. Somewhere in Thailand way back when some idiot told Thai Students to defy all the current conventions about writing numerals and put a base and a flag on a one.

[mark45y]

Thai students are not allowed to parcipate in constructive bebates or even question the instructor. They must accept what the instructor says so if he is a blithering idiot then the students will be worse.

I doubt there a lot of debates in 3rd and 4th grade in any school anywhere. That creative argument is OK for college but a student has to get the three R's right first.