Thai Property Count For Financial Requirement

[albymush]

Hello

My Mate and his wife (both English) were told by the Thai Consulate officer in Cardiff, that their House in Thailand, Value about 5 million Baht, which they own through a company, can count as my mates financial requirement when applying for a retiremnt visa?

If this is factual, then there are a lot of expats going to be smiling due to not having to have 800000 baht in Thai Bank, or equivalent pension.

But I suspect there is flaw in there somewhere.

Any comments?

Albymush

[Jingthing]

Yes, there is a flaw. A 100 percent flaw. They have received totally fallacious information. Sorry.

For those looking for a super easy path to permanent residency abroad and even a second passport if desired, try Ecuador, where simply buying a 25,000 dollar piece of real estate gets you in. Permanently.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[lopburi3]

As the only authorized source for a retirement (long stay) visa in the UK is the Royal Thai Embassy in London I suspect the Consulate is saying they will issue a one year non immigrant O visa with such proof. That requires exit of Thailand every 90 days so is not the same an an O-A visa or one year extension of stay for retirement.

[albymush]

Yes, there is a flaw. A 100 percent flaw. They have received totally fallacious information. Sorry.

For those looking for a super easy path to permanent residency abroad and even a second passport if desired, try Ecuador, where simply buying a 25,000 dollar piece of real estate gets you in. Permanently.

Hi Jingthing

Thanks for the info about Ecuador, I'll bear it in mind.

But back to this financial aspect here. Have you noticed in the document, describing requirements for Non-Imm. "O-A" visa, it states, and I copy here:- Foreigner who wishes to extend his or her stay shall submit a request for extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau with documented evidence of money transfer or a deposit account in Thailand or an income certificate showing an amount of not less than 800,000.- Baht.

That phrase "Documented evidence of Money transfer" is what the guy in Cardiff told my mate. He said, the ownership of the house, plus proof of money transfer, would class as the financial requirement.

[Jingthing]

OK. I see your point. That's kind of a technical point. For an O-A visa the money doesn't even need to be in Thailand! There are different ways to show money for that depending on the specific home country embassy rules. But that is TEMPORARY. But eventually people with O-A's who are really retired in Thailand go for their annual extensions based on retirement can NEVER use owned property to meet the financial requirements. So this presumed good news that people using the bank account method in Thailand for their annual retirement extensions isn't real.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[albymush]

As the only authorized source for a retirement (long stay) visa in the UK is the Royal Thai Embassy in London I suspect the Consulate is saying they will issue a one year non immigrant O visa with such proof. That requires exit of Thailand every 90 days so is not the same an an O-A visa or one year extension of stay for retirement.

Hi Lopburi3

You're right about the London Embassy being the only source for the "O-A" visa

But this info was passed over whilst applying for an "O" visa for his present visit.

Whilst he was there he asked about the 800K Baht requirement and was given the info I passed on. The guy also took their property details and entered them into the consulate computer system for future reference!

[PoorSucker]

Hi Jingthing

Thanks for the info about Ecuador, I'll bear it in mind.

But back to this financial aspect here. Have you noticed in the document, describing requirements for Non-Imm. "O-A" visa, it states, and I copy here:- Foreigner who wishes to extend his or her stay shall submit a request for extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau with documented evidence of money transfer or a deposit account in Thailand or an income certificate showing an amount of not less than 800,000.- Baht.

That phrase "Documented evidence of Money transfer" is what the guy in Cardiff told my mate. He said, the ownership of the house, plus proof of money transfer, would class as the financial requirement.

The documented transfer must be 800.000 baht per year.

[Jingthing]

Hi Jingthing

Thanks for the info about Ecuador, I'll bear it in mind.

But back to this financial aspect here. Have you noticed in the document, describing requirements for Non-Imm. "O-A" visa, it states, and I copy here:- Foreigner who wishes to extend his or her stay shall submit a request for extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau with documented evidence of money transfer or a deposit account in Thailand or an income certificate showing an amount of not less than 800,000.- Baht.

That phrase "Documented evidence of Money transfer" is what the guy in Cardiff told my mate. He said, the ownership of the house, plus proof of money transfer, would class as the financial requirement.

The documented transfer must be 800.000 baht per year.

Huh?

In any case, for people doing extensions based on retirement in Thailand using the 800K in a Thai bank requirement, the documented transfer REQUIRED per year is ZERO baht. You can keep that same 800K in there untouched as long as you like. True, they may ask you where you are getting money to spend, but then they are just fishing to see if you are working here illegally.

I suppose some people are never getting extensions based on retirement in Thailand, and just becoming serial O-A applicants. That's a different situation and quite rare I would think.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[albymush]

OK. I see your point. That's kind of a technical point. For an O-A visa the money doesn't even need to be in Thailand! There are different ways to show money for that depending on the specific home country embassy rules. But that is TEMPORARY. But eventually people with O-A's who are really retired in Thailand go for their annual extensions based on retirement can NEVER use owned property to meet the financial requirements. So this presumed good news that people using the bank account method in Thailand for their annual retirement extensions isn't real.

Hi Jingthing

To your knowledge has this question ever been asked before? I guess it must have because you are so certain that proof of financial transfer is not an accepted parameter

[Jingthing]

OK. I see your point. That's kind of a technical point. For an O-A visa the money doesn't even need to be in Thailand! There are different ways to show money for that depending on the specific home country embassy rules. But that is TEMPORARY. But eventually people with O-A's who are really retired in Thailand go for their annual extensions based on retirement can NEVER use owned property to meet the financial requirements. So this presumed good news that people using the bank account method in Thailand for their annual retirement extensions isn't real.

Hi Jingthing

To your knowledge has this question ever been asked before? I guess it must have because you are so certain that proof of financial transfer is not an accepted parameter

We may be talking about different things. There is qualifying for the O-A in the home country (see post 3) and there is qualifying for extensions in Thailand. I am not sure what you asking about here now. In any case, I have 100 percent certainly nobody is qualifying for retirement extensions in Thailand on the bank account method with either property ownership OR proof of transfer; the proof needed is the money in the bank account for that, seasoned according to the rules, and that's that. In other words for such extensions, you could have proof you had transferred 100 million baht but still would not get a retirement extension if you showed up with 799,000 baht in your Thai bank account (using the pure bank account method, no pension).

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[albymush]

OK. I see your point. That's kind of a technical point. For an O-A visa the money doesn't even need to be in Thailand! There are different ways to show money for that depending on the specific home country embassy rules. But that is TEMPORARY. But eventually people with O-A's who are really retired in Thailand go for their annual extensions based on retirement can NEVER use owned property to meet the financial requirements. So this presumed good news that people using the bank account method in Thailand for their annual retirement extensions isn't real.

Hi Jingthing

To your knowledge has this question ever been asked before? I guess it must have because you are so certain that proof of financial transfer is not an accepted parameter

We may be talking about different things. There is qualifying for the O-A in the home country (see post 3) and there is qualifying for extensions in Thailand. I am not sure what you asking about here now. In any case, I have 100 percent certainly nobody is qualifying for retirement extensions in Thailand on the bank account method with either property ownership OR proof of transfer; the proof needed is the money in the bank account for that, seasoned according to the rules, and that's that. In other words for such extensions, you could have proof you had transferred 100 million baht but still would not get a retirement extension if you showed up with 799,000 baht in your Thai bank account (using the pure bank account method, no pension).

Hi again Jingthing

You're spot on, I've just re-read the application requirements for an extension of visa and there is no mention of proof of remittance - just a requirement for 800K baht in a Thai bank.

So --- sadly the guy seems to have been talking a lot of hot air. unless he knows something that we don't.

My Mate is sure the Guy wasn't talking about the "O-A" visa as that clearly states that the requirement for the finances, is in ones own country.

[lopburi3]

1. Consulates work under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and have nothing to do with and in most cases little knowledge of Immigration extension of stay requirements.

2. Immigration requires the 800k be in a Thai bank account for the previous two or three months every year if using that method. The only alternative is 65k per month income by your Embassy certification or a combination of the two to meet 800k.

3. There is no requirement that income or 800k in bank account be remitted or used.

4. Ownership of property is a very gray area and if company is set up to avoid foreign land ownership could be illegal so probably not something most would want to get into government channels.

[albymush]

1. Consulates work under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and have nothing to do with and in most cases little knowledge of Immigration extension of stay requirements.

2. Immigration requires the 800k be in a Thai bank account for the previous two or three months every year if using that method. The only alternative is 65k per month income by your Embassy certification or a combination of the two to meet 800k.

3. There is no requirement that income or 800k in bank account be remitted or used.

4. Ownership of property is a very gray area and if company is set up to avoid foreign land ownership could be illegal so probably not something most would want to get into government channels.

Hi Lopburi3

I take onboard the meaning of your 4th point and I will pass this on.

albymush

[jazzbo]

One way to use the 5mm baht property to get the 'Extension of Stay based upon Retirement' is to use the property as collateral to take out a 3 month loan each year for 800k baht and then park the money for the required three months in that same bank -- then after the extension is granted just 'pay back' the loan.

[thailandbluegrass]

Hi. I just posted this in another spot on Thai Visa but here it is again and If I were you I would not give ANY details to ANY Thai authority about land ownership due to it will have NOTHING to do with a vis and why gine any info to any government that does not ask for it. Anyways here is my other post;

True but I had my dad stay with me here for his last 4 years and died last year at 84. When he applied he did it in Canada and got the 90 day visa but when here we transfered his money into an SCB bank account I opened for him and all he needed to show was 400,000 baht plus proof of minimal 40,000 baht income comming in from another country every month. (His pension was more then enough) They will not give you a retirement visa with ONLY 800k in his account. He still needs a "monthly income".

He will also need a letter from the bank and NOT JUST A BANK BOOK UP-DATED as many farangs do not know this and end up standing in line all day at Immigration just to be told he needs that bank letter (300 baht).

Like I said my dad got his "O" visa in Canada which helped a lot. The more cash he can carry with him to Thailand on his flight (max 10,000.00 USD allowed in any country) the less he will have to loose on transfer fees from his countries bank account if thats what he was planning on doing.

He will also need to show an "ATM card (new law).

So all in all my dad had;

• Bank statements from his bank in Canada
• Up-dated bank book statement from his Thai SCB account
• Letter from SCB
• Proof of 40,000 minimal baht statement he got from his bank statement for the past year in his Canadian account or loke "lopburi3" stated a letter from his embassy notarized and stamped.
• ATM card from SCB
• Health certificate from doctor or clinic (30 - 70 baht)

[Jingthing]

Hi. I just posted this in another spot on Thai Visa but here it is again and If I were you I would not give ANY details to ANY Thai authority about land ownership due to it will have NOTHING to do with a vis and why gine any info to any government that does not ask for it. Anyways here is my other post;

True but I had my dad stay with me here for his last 4 years and died last year at 84. When he applied he did it in Canada and got the 90 day visa but when here we transfered his money into an SCB bank account I opened for him and all he needed to show was 400,000 baht plus proof of minimal 40,000 baht income comming in from another country every month. (His pension was more then enough) They will not give you a retirement visa with ONLY 800k in his account. He still needs a "monthly income".

He will also need a letter from the bank and NOT JUST A BANK BOOK UP-DATED as many farangs do not know this and end up standing in line all day at Immigration just to be told he needs that bank letter (300 baht).

Like I said my dad got his "O" visa in Canada which helped a lot. The more cash he can carry with him to Thailand on his flight (max 10,000.00 USD allowed in any country) the less he will have to loose on transfer fees from his countries bank account if thats what he was planning on doing.

He will also need to show an "ATM card (new law).

So all in all my dad had;

• Bank statements from his bank in Canada
• Up-dated bank book statement from his Thai SCB account
• Letter from SCB
• Proof of 40,000 minimal baht statement he got from his bank statement for the past year in his Canadian account or loke "lopburi3" stated a letter from his embassy notarized and stamped.
• ATM card from SCB
• Health certificate from doctor or clinic (30 - 70 baht)

Hmmm.

I suppose it may vary from home country to home country embassy, but generally do you do not need ANY pension at all to qualify for an O-A visa in your home country, and also the banked money you do show for that is usually NOT in Thailand. For extensions based on retirement done IN Thailand, there is no ambiguity at all. You don't need one baht of income/pension, etc. 800K in a THAI bank seasoned for the needed number of months does it and that's what I have been doing for years.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[ljerams]

Just to confuse the issue, my Customer's husband has lived here for many years. He is Canadian and has a Retirement Visa these days. He has never ever had a Thai Bank Account but has more than sufficient funds in his Canadian Bank Account plus of course his pension. Each year his Bank confirms that his account holds more than sufficient cash for his Retirement Visa application.

One thing that amazed me was that he was still using the Bank's ATM for his monthly spends incurring a pretty high withdrawal charge every time.

I have never had the opportunity to talk to the person directly but his wife assures me that they have never had any problems with his Visa.

[lopburi3]

If using both income and bank deposit it might be allowed, especially for someone in the system. But for bank deposit only the requirement since police order 777/2551 is that the funds be in a bank account in Thailand for the required period of time each year.

(4) Account deposit with a bank in Thailand of not less than

800,000 Baht as shown in the bank account for the past 3 months

at the filing date of the application. For the first year, the applicant

should have that amount in his bank account for not less than 60

days or

[raylo]

Like I said my dad got his "O" visa in Canada which helped a lot. The more cash he can carry with him to Thailand on his flight (max 10,000.00 USD allowed in any country) the less he will have to loose on transfer fees from his countries bank account if thats what he was planning on doing.

2 things:

1/ A clarification: The 10,000 dollar per person rule whether it be US, CAD or AUD is when you do not notify the relevant Government departments.

If you read the rules you can take more out. per person. in cash if you notify them of the fact. It does bring you into their radar though.

2/ As a foreigner cannot own land, company ownership and 30 year leases do not count for obvious reasons then logically they cannot use property as proof of income or assets in the eyes of immigration.

[asiawatcher]

My last renewal was 400,000 in the account and my company documents here. There was nothing else. My company is 5M PU Capital and I have two the same so 10M and that meant nothing. I employ in average 100 Thai contractors per job which last around 3 months but that made no impact on them at all.

Basically they want your money and not necessarily you. What did get them was the amount of funds I transfer in for contract work, all of which stays in Thailand (8 figures in THB). Bingo. Done and done.

Edited December 12, 2010 by asiawatcher

[DoctorG]

Agree with what others have said here. Putting aside the monthly pension thing, for a retirement visa you must have had at least 800,000 bt in a Thai bank for 3 months before you apply/renew. You also need a special letter from your Thai bank to confirm this. (deposit for 2 months for the first application)

Before I came here I asked the Thai Consul in Brisbane if I could buy a condo in Thailand as my 800k "deposit". He gave a definate "no".

[PoorSucker]

Agree with what others have said here. Putting aside the monthly pension thing, for a retirement visa you must have had at least 800,000 bt in a Thai bank for 3 months before you apply/renew. You also need a special letter from your Thai bank to confirm this. (deposit for 2 months for the first application)

Before I came here I asked the Thai Consul in Brisbane if I could buy a condo in Thailand as my 800k "deposit". He gave a definate "no".

You can go for the investment visa and buy a condo for 10 million.

[Arkady]

Albymush, you are correct that there is a very serious flaw in this argument. Firstly only cash in the bank counts towards the asset requirement for a retirement extension. There used to be a one year investment visa based on 3 million baht invested in Thailand and condos registered in the name of the applicant counted towards this but that was discontinued a few years back. Secondly foreigners buying land in Thailand through company structures is strictly illegal under the Land Code, not to mention that the company structure effectively controlled by foreigners without an alien business licence is also illegal under the Foreign Business Act. The penalties for violating both of these laws and making false declarations to government officials could amount to substantial fines and multiple years in prison for the foreigners and their Thai nominees. The property could be forcibly sold at public auction by the Legal Execution Department. It would be extremely inadvisable to disclose this information to the Immigration Bureau, which is after all a part of the Royal Thai Police and under an obligation to report evidence of criminal activities they come across to their colleagues in other parts of the force.

[Jingthing]

My last renewal was 400,000 in the account and my company documents here. There was nothing else. My company is 5M PU Capital and I have two the same so 10M and that meant nothing. I employ in average 100 Thai contractors per job which last around 3 months but that made no impact on them at all.

Basically they want your money and not necessarily you. What did get them was the amount of funds I transfer in for contract work, all of which stays in Thailand (8 figures in THB). Bingo. Done and done.

It appears you aren't talking about retirement visas or retirement extensions.

From the OP --

my mates financial requirement when applying for a retiremnt visa?

Edited December 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[dighambara]

OK. I see your point. That's kind of a technical point. For an O-A visa the money doesn't even need to be in Thailand! There are different ways to show money for that depending on the specific home country embassy rules. But that is TEMPORARY. But eventually people with O-A's who are really retired in Thailand go for their annual extensions based on retirement can NEVER use owned property to meet the financial requirements. So this presumed good news that people using the bank account method in Thailand for their annual retirement extensions isn't real.

Hi Jingthing

To your knowledge has this question ever been asked before? I guess it must have because you are so certain that proof of financial transfer is not an accepted parameter

We may be talking about different things. There is qualifying for the O-A in the home country (see post 3) and there is qualifying for extensions in Thailand. I am not sure what you asking about here now. In any case, I have 100 percent certainly nobody is qualifying for retirement extensions in Thailand on the bank account method with either property ownership OR proof of transfer; the proof needed is the money in the bank account for that, seasoned according to the rules, and that's that. In other words for such extensions, you could have proof you had transferred 100 million baht but still would not get a retirement extension if you showed up with 799,000 baht in your Thai bank account (using the pure bank account method, no pension).

Hi again Jingthing

You're spot on, I've just re-read the application requirements for an extension of visa and there is no mention of proof of remittance - just a requirement for 800K baht in a Thai bank.

So --- sadly the guy seems to have been talking a lot of hot air. unless he knows something that we don't.

My Mate is sure the Guy wasn't talking about the "O-A" visa as that clearly states that the requirement for the finances, is in ones own country.

Guys,

While 'vacationing' at a condo in Jomtien a couple of years ago, I was speaking with a couple of Germans (so I am uncertain I got the info correct), but they both insisted they were each using their condo ownership in lieu of the 800,000 Baht account...

[Mario2008]

As Lopburi pointed out, the rules do not allow for property to be used for an extension of stay based on retirement.

A condo can be used for an extension based on investement.

[swerver]

Albymush, you are correct that there is a very serious flaw in this argument. Firstly only cash in the bank counts towards the asset requirement for a retirement extension. There used to be a one year investment visa based on 3 million baht invested in Thailand and condos registered in the name of the applicant counted towards this but that was discontinued a few years back. Secondly foreigners buying land in Thailand through company structures is strictly illegal under the Land Code, not to mention that the company structure effectively controlled by foreigners without an alien business licence is also illegal under the Foreign Business Act. The penalties for violating both of these laws and making false declarations to government officials could amount to substantial fines and multiple years in prison for the foreigners and their Thai nominees. The property could be forcibly sold at public auction by the Legal Execution Department. It would be extremely inadvisable to disclose this information to the Immigration Bureau, which is after all a part of the Royal Thai Police and under an obligation to report evidence of criminal activities they come across to their colleagues in other parts of the force.

Arkady – You re right on the ball obviously from like my self having worked in and out of Thailand for decades since retiring 16-yr ago. My motto is: KIS – Keep It Simple

Do people read this Forum?

On a few occasions I have by now explained that:

Embassies / Consulates ONLY place a Visa Stamp in an applicant’s passport when the Embassy / Consulate information search at the time the stamp is placed in the passport shows all systems GO. In other words, there is no information on file at the Embassy / Consulate of a negative nature about the person applying at that time.

The Embassy / Consulate are NOT the Immigration Department of the country a person wants to enter.

The first time the person that wants to enter the country comes in direct contact with Immigration, is at Point of Entry. S/he is called Immigration Officer and with the information s/he has on its computer Monitor about the person standing in front of its counter s/he makes the decision to allow entry or not to allow entry. Whenever s/he is in doubt about the information s/he has on its monitor, s/he in the case of Thailand will apply the 15-day stay stamp in the passport. This gives the passport holder ample time to go to Immigration HQ to sort out whatever needs sorting out, with the Big Boys.

After dealing with Embassies / Consulates for the past sixty years my personal experience: People working in Embassies / Consulates are all overcome with their self-importance of knowing everything – but little about it. As for preventing you from going to jail, forget it, if the law of the foreign country has decided to place you in jail for safekeeping, jail is were you go.

In the case of Thai Immigration, there are so many rules and regulation that frequently are being modified, changed, alter, etc. Years ago when having conversation with the Head of Thai Immigration - his son was studying in Amsterdam at the BPM Lab. – he said, the simplest way is to put the money in the bank (Now 2010 800,000 Thai Baht) with a letter from the Bank and copies of the bank account. To the officers working in Immigration this is the rule they know best and the one they try to stick with. Anytime an applicant deviates from this rule the applicant is moving towards possible problems.

You can use the 800,000 perpetually without using it, but here again you are asking for problems because anybody in their right mind knows a person has to use money to live. Simplest way set up an account with cheque book and Credit Card for living and pay all expenses out of that account and keep it brought up to 8000,000 or more 3-months before Visa Renewal.

I.e. Government Bonds – it say on them that they can be used for guarantee with the government. The Big Boy allowed me to use them one (1) time and told me only this time, next year have the bank letter. He also informed me the word “government” does not mean immigration, immigration is not the Government. As for owning property, immigration is not a real estate office. Anytime a person wants to move on uncharted immigration territory then it is necessary to have a Law Firm handle the case.

K.I.S. Keep It Simple.