No Degree = No Future ?

[jdinasia]

Anyway, my point is that a good salesman is not necessarily a fly-by-night pattermerchant, and if that is the person to whom you turn for your important purchases, perhaps the problem is in the buyer, not the vendor...

In my case the problem with the lying cheating sales staff is within OUR company. Cant seem to find decent sales people. All liars with or without a degree. It seems like a universal law which applies to all sales. Creates huge problems.

If the problem is inside your company, I would suggest that the management practices are at fault. Good sales people don't have to resort to lying (assuming they leave a company with a crappy product) I agree that a salesman that has to lie to make a deal is worthless, but company governance is at issue if the problem is pervasive.

[Moonrakers]

other colleagues disagree with me, say he won't fit in the company.

Who are these people, are they Thai? Have they even met him?

To say that somebody won't fit in purely because they don't have a degree seems a tad snobby to me. Thai's often do consider somebody without a degree to be a) uneducated and b.) lower class. Of course as westerners we tend to think otherwise. Without knowing these people, I'd hazard a guess that they have issues with people they perceive to be a lower 'class' than them.

As to whether or not this guy is qualified, I can't answer. But the OP seems to think so.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Moonrakers

[TAWP]

People that put too much value into degrees are people that have one but little of else, so they are proud they atleast achieved that step...

In some industries having a degree is very much inferior to having 5 years of experience in the trade - especially over here, is my experienced doing interviews of applicants.

[jdinasia]

other colleagues disagree with me, say he won't fit in the company.

Who are these people, are they Thai? Have they even met him?

To say that somebody won't fit in purely because they don't have a degree seems a tad snobby to me. Thai's often do consider somebody without a degree to be a) uneducated and b.) lower class. Of course as westerners we tend to think otherwise. Without knowing these people, I'd hazard a guess that they have issues with people they perceive to be a lower 'class' than them.

As to whether or not this guy is qualified, I can't answer. But the OP seems to think so.

Point of order

a) uneducated ----

[GuestHouse]

I don't have a degree and I bet I earn more than you

The problem with that argument is two fold - There is no means of verifying your income and even if there were, it's only a matter of looking to find someone who has a degree that earns more.

[Moonrakers]

I didn't answer the question.

I personally gave up finding 'employment' some time ago as not having a degree was just an insurmountable obstacle for me. My applications were not even being considered because of it. My experience and skills equated to exactly zero without that bit of paper. I had considered lying on my application to get my foot in the door but decided against it.

I had to lay the work experience I had to one side and start from scratch again in a completely new career path because of it. I am now self employed and things like degrees are never an issue, my skills and abilities are now allowed to speak for themselves.

Whilst I am sure there are employers out there who will give full time permanent employment to a farang without a degree, the odds are certainly not in our favour.

[Moonrakers]

other colleagues disagree with me, say he won't fit in the company.

Who are these people, are they Thai? Have they even met him?

To say that somebody won't fit in purely because they don't have a degree seems a tad snobby to me. Thai's often do consider somebody without a degree to be a) uneducated and b.) lower class. Of course as westerners we tend to think otherwise. Without knowing these people, I'd hazard a guess that they have issues with people they perceive to be a lower 'class' than them.

As to whether or not this guy is qualified, I can't answer. But the OP seems to think so.

Point of order

a) uneducated ----

I have no degree, yet I am confident I have a superior education to many Thais who do!

[jdinasia]

other colleagues disagree with me, say he won't fit in the company.

Who are these people, are they Thai? Have they even met him?

To say that somebody won't fit in purely because they don't have a degree seems a tad snobby to me. Thai's often do consider somebody without a degree to be a) uneducated and b.) lower class. Of course as westerners we tend to think otherwise. Without knowing these people, I'd hazard a guess that they have issues with people they perceive to be a lower 'class' than them.

As to whether or not this guy is qualified, I can't answer. But the OP seems to think so.

Point of order

a) uneducated ----

I have no degree, yet I am confident I have a superior education to many Thais who do!

You indeed might. That being said when comparing apples to apples ... (Thais to Thais and foreigners to foreigners) the very nature of a degree implies "education". It does not imply intelligence etc .... but it does imply education. There are plenty of self-taught folks out there in the world but at first blush you cannot ascertain their knowledge. A degree suggests many things and states few. It does state "education". It also states determination/diligence.

If we are talking about an auto mechanic I would rather have one that served an apprenticeship with a good mechanic over some kid fresh out of a VocEd school. If we are talking about accountants on the other hand ..... that piece of paper/sheepskin matters.

[kpmsprtd]

I was 26 and coming off 8 years in the military when I realized the game was rigged. No degree = short end of the stick. So I got the degree. My concern when seeing people without degrees (many much more capable than myself) is: "What is wrong with you that you cannot see that the game is rigged? Just get the degree already!"

I question the wisdom of someone who struggles long-term without a degree rather than efficiently solving the problem by taking a couple years of effort to get the degree. In Americana, at least, we've got private companies (University of Phoenix, etc.) that make it possible to complete a degree quickly and relatively painlessly.

I accept the premise that many degrees mean jack squat (nothing). But failure to get one makes me question a person's problem solving skills. With the game rigged so securely, the only logical solution is to get the degree. Anything else is illogical. And if I were to not hire someone, it would be for being illogical.

[Moonrakers]

You indeed might. That being said when comparing apples to apples ... (Thais to Thais and foreigners to foreigners) the very nature of a degree implies "education". It does not imply intelligence etc .... but it does imply education. There are plenty of self-taught folks out there in the world but at first blush you cannot ascertain their knowledge. A degree suggests many things and states few. It does state "education". It also states determination/diligence.

If we are talking about an auto mechanic I would rather have one that served an apprenticeship with a good mechanic over some kid fresh out of a VocEd school. If we are talking about accountants on the other hand ..... that piece of paper/sheepskin matters.

I have A-Levels, I am an educated person. Perhaps not to (western) degree level, but educated nonetheless.

I am not talking about intelligence, I am talking about education. Neither am I talking about self education, but education provided to me by schools and colleges. In addition I have acquired various qualifications through work, again this is an education.

Western employers recognise this and see that relative to many other people, I am a learned person. Unfortunately for me they are also looking for specific skill sets which I just don't have. For so many Thai's, it is black and white. No degree = no education, this is why I asked the OP if the people complaining are Thai. I have even met Thai's who want to challenge my English language skills because they have a degree and I don't.

[bina]

i think that many of u are sort of missing an important cultural point. in thailand, those that hold degrees get status and employment and salary to match and are considered 'more important, better' then those that dont hold degrees REGARDLESS OF THEIR ACTUAL PROFESSIONAL ABILITIES'. here in israel most large copanies wont look in the direction of anyone that doesnt have a degree and here everyone is doing business degrees 'just to get a job'. and everyone cheats lies and copies and takes courses on how to pass company 'screening' exams that are oh so popular here.

a westerner w/o a degree will put a lot of thai noses out of joint so that even if he/she fit the job, the teams/crew/co workers, and more importantly, those that would be subordinate to the person, wont cooperate , in so many subtle ways, that it might not be worth it.

bina

israel

[jdinasia]

I was 26 and coming off 8 years in the military when I realized the game was rigged. No degree = short end of the stick. So I got the degree. My concern when seeing people without degrees (many much more capable than myself) is: "What is wrong with you that you cannot see that the game is rigged? Just get the degree already!"

I question the wisdom of someone who struggles long-term without a degree rather than efficiently solving the problem by taking a couple years of effort to get the degree. In Americana, at least, we've got private companies (University of Phoenix, etc.) that make it possible to complete a degree quickly and relatively painlessly.

I accept the premise that many degrees mean jack squat (nothing). But failure to get one makes me question a person's problem solving skills. With the game rigged so securely, the only logical solution is to get the degree. Anything else is illogical. And if I were to not hire someone, it would be for being illogical.

True, it simply is a must for most people that want to rise above working class.

Moonraker --- from what I understand A levels (you didn't say how many) are about the equivalent of a national diploma/freshman in college. So, depending on what they were in and what school was attended ...... it may or may not have any bearing on "education" past a high school level. Again if it were some jobs that should be enough, but for accounting etc .... nowhere close to enough.

As an employer (in Thailand), why would someone pick you over a foreigner with a degree in the field? There simply are too many qualified (even over-qualified) people that are looking for work that if people don't hit the bar ... they just don't get an interview.

Remember to compare apples to apples.

[Heng]

I'd hire folks without a degree. Haven't been inclined to yet as the ones I have come across so far have had a bag of other issues (that often seem to correlate with non-degree group stereotypes), the most common of which is wanting to start their a professional life in their mid to late 20's, sometimes early 30's, instead of their early 20's. Not a huge issue if they had spent those years gaining some experience in the field they wanted to jump into, but in so many cases, it seems like they have just been messing around wasting time and are just now realizing that bills don't pay themselves and that they need a job.

[stander]

I think it is a little bit unfair to class all Thai university degrees as being inferior to Western degrees.

My company employs somewhere in the region of 200 plus degree qualified Thai nationals, accountants, engineers, administrators, planners etc and quite a few of them have been over to the States for further training and they have all performed as good as if not better in some cases than the other employees who come from many different countries.

As I stated previously I was a mature student and I was lucky with my circumstances, but nowadays with the online opportunities there is no real reason why someone should allow him/herself to be held back by the lack of a degree.

[Moonrakers]

I think it is a little bit unfair to class all Thai university degrees as being inferior to Western degrees.

I don't think anybody is.

[Moonrakers]

Remember to compare apples to apples.

I know jd.

But the op is talking about an orange in the apple cart. The people saying he 'won't fit', could be the ones comparing the orange to apples. We know the difference and recognise the issue, but do they?

[Forethat]

If the problem is inside your company, I would suggest that the management practices are at fault.

I disagree. In my opinion it's a culture/tradition within a business role.

Good sales people don't have to resort to lying (assuming they leave a company with a crappy product).

I agree, yet in every business area I've worked in they've done it over and over and over again. Backhanders, kickbacks, lies, and deals with competitors - I've seen it all. Since moving to Asia I'm seeing this at a level I previously thought didn't exist.

[travelmann]

I don't have a degree and I bet I earn more than you

The very top money makers of this world seldom have degrees. They are too busy wheeling and dealing while creating wealth. I was GOING to say, wage earners" but money makers seldom work for a wage. They hustle for capital to invest in money making schemes, and then move on to other schemes. They are gamblers and risk takers, but wise in business sense. They also know when to get out of losing situation.

Those people are entirely different from those that start careers in some job market.

When I was at school there was a kid like this, I didnt like him he was a bit of a bully but he knew everything, he didnt bother studying at schoool he saw it as a waste of time, he was incredibly clever, went on to earn a fortune of over £500million (pounds) all kept offshore in the Virgin islands amongst other places , was married to Simon Cowells ex grilfriend amongst others, own a mansion and a whole mews block in Mayfair London amonst many other properties major trader in Gulf Oil etc etc .

It was clear at school even when he was 12-13 he would succeed, incredible they are born not made like this, degree?? I doubt he has even got an "O" level am sure he skipped all the exams.

Lucky bastard!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1261285/Kevin-Cash-Meet-elusive-millionaire-bankrolling-Michelle-Young-bitter-400m-divorce.html

Edited December 12, 2010 by travelmann

[Beetlejuice]

When I left school, it was more of what I was capable of doing rather than having to show degrees and paperwork explaining what I was capable of doing. The word, apprentice may as well be deleted from the dictionary, as these days due to new marketing philosophies, firms are trying to implement what they classify as the up market new young image. They prefer 20 odd year olds, earning the wages of school leavers with 40 years work experience.

The pressures today put on young people are enormous. Debt, high profile extreme pressure working designed by marketing strategists in order to gain more profits, no long term employment guarantees. I wonder how many actually serve in a company long enough to archive their gold watch these days.

It may appear that the youngsters have a better lifestyle than we had back in the old days, but this is only superficial, under the surface they are under tremendous pressures to ensure a secure future for they’re adulthoods and strive much harder than we ever had to so many years ago.

The problem is that the rules have been laid and no matter how work talented someone is, their career prospects are determinate by they’re past processes and having to fit in to a certain criteria of any particular company.

[mmushr00m]

For those that point out bill gates, Branson etc are billionaires who do not have degrees. Shouldnt it also be noted for everyone of them they are probably millions who are now in employed inthe exciting field of mall security?

Personally I don't think a degree matters after the person have had several years working experience, unless of course it's in a specialized position.

Would you be asking this question if the person in question was Thai?

Edited December 12, 2010 by mmushr00m

[Forethat]

Tend to agree. Shifting the goal posts a bit. Look at the ranks of Victoria Cross winners in the UK, the highest honour for a soldier, mainly awarded to men from low ranks, food for thought.

Ahhhrr, the old Victorian era when you weren't allowed to shoot at the officers. Brave men, every single one of them (the officers, that is). With no exceptions, mainly educated men from higher ranks. Edited December 12, 2010 by Forethat

[kurnell]

I don't have a degree and I bet I earn more than you

The problem with that argument is two fold - There is no means of verifying your income and even if there were, it's only a matter of looking to find someone who has a degree that earns more.

I pull out my pay slip so does the OP. I can't see anywhere above where I claim to earn more than everyone in the world WITH a degree. Perhaps you should have paid more attention in English class?

[aaoaahq]

This is an interesting discussion.

In my line of work we categorize staff as either support or professional staff. For support staff we require a high school diploma and for professional staff we require a minimum of a BA degree.

However, many of our support staff actually have masters degrees in some discipline or other and can progress to professional staff if they undertake specific training or are involved in programmatic areas that provide some kind of work related experience.

As mentioned, professional staff need a minimum of a BA degree, but most positions require a masters degree related to the position description. However, we will hire applicants that have a BA degree plus 4 years of relevant experience as a substitute for a masters degree. This experience has to be in the field that the applicant is applying for.

I have been involved in many selection committees and it all depends on what the position entails. If the position is technical in nature that cannot allow any margin of error (i.e. engineer, physician etc) then of course you need to hire someone with the necessary educational qualifications and experience. If you need a researcher then hire a PhD. However, I would almost always hire someone with a BA degree with relevant work experience over someone with a MA or PhD who doesn't have any work experience, especially for operational positions.

So it depends on what the candidate is being asked to do, but as has been mentioned in this thread, finishing a degree does show some kind of commitment to ones own future in this day and age.

[nellyp]

As an uneducated geriatric; I can only give you an opinion from my experience. I left school (loaded up to 'O' level standard)when going to university was only for the brightest in the school. My father laughed when i asked about staying on in school, as we needed the extra income. I have freinds, and have had work mates with degrees and find them no brighter than myself, and some have been near to stupid. As for this idea that getting a degree somehow shows dedication, I have to laugh. I spent 3 years as an apprentice when I finished school, and if i add it all up have spent the better part of 9 years gathering the various qualifications i have. This includes 2, three year stints to become qualified as a csrpenter and a vehicle painter. Both are vocational qualifications, but took no lees time than a degree in david beckham.

I wish i had a degree though; and would advise anybody to get one. This is just because it seems so important now, but I feel that the degree you get these days would probably have been quite easily acheivable to the average student in my year. And this is not why a degree is given. it should be a measure of the better student, not somebody who is prepared to spend a few years taking boring lessons but getting drunk and partying for the same amount of time(hey...thats dedication as roy Castle would have said). I believe I could get something like 60-100% of a degree through my life and work experience (crap degrees I know, and not worth a toss), would this keep the employers happy? I think not if they knew the situation. Stil....HR could relax a little. This is no help to the OP, but the degree question is redundant in my opinion, as i believe degrees to be so watered down as to be nothing but window dressing.

Edited December 12, 2010 by nellyp

[Loz]

Go and have a look at some of the most sucessful people in the world and you will find not all of them have degree's, Bill Gates and Richard Branson spring to mind.

Having a degree proves nothing...doesnt actually mean you can do a particular job and be sucessful at it..Thailand is a pressing point in this regard

And generally a decent high school equcation in the west would be at the same level as most Thai degree's anyway

Have met many educated idiots through the years....

WHile I wholeheartedly agree with the bulk of your message I feel obliged to point out that william Gates jr was accepted to Harvard! Its disengenuous to suggest he was not a scholarly fellow. He just saw an opportunity and pounced on it diregarding his formal education at the time.

I think western minds have lots too offer but I am not sure every western mind knows how to package its ideas and ethos in a Thai-friendly way...

[Loz]

People that put too much value into degrees are people that have one but little of else, so they are proud they atleast achieved that step...

In some industries having a degree is very much inferior to having 5 years of experience in the trade - especially over here, is my experienced doing interviews of applicants.

Pure GOld!

Attitude determines altitude!

Or as Alex Twist used to say, " You can't polish a turd "

[CaptHaddock]

Bill Gates and Richard Branson might not themselves have degrees but go check the recruiting policies of the companies they run - They seek out and employ the very best graduates they can get their hands on.

When Gates dropped out of Harvard he had a USD 1 million trust fund, his father was a well-connected Washington lawyer, and his mother was personal friends with the chairman of IBM.  There's no rags to riches story there.

[fletchsmile]

There really isn't enough info in your post, Jurgen.

What size of company do you work in?

How many expats are there? How many Thais?

What industry are you in?

What is your position?

Who are the other colleagues and what positions are they?

What position will he be filling?

As a manager you seem to be overlooking the fact that a company is not simply a collection of or the sum of the individuals. Particularly in Thailand.

Undoubtedly he will have something to contribute as an individual regardless of degree. However, if the majority of your colleagues are Thai and perceive he will not fit, he'll have an uphill struggle. You may also upset the balance of other team members.

One of the most important factors in business is trust. How will this affect your, his and your colleagues trust in various relationships? One message you would be sending if you hire him is that you know best and you don't trust your colleagues' judgement. Not a message to be sent lightly in Thailand.

Edited December 12, 2010 by fletchsmile

[bina]

the most common of which is wanting to start their a professional life in their mid to late 20's, sometimes early 30's, instead of their early 20's. Not a huge issue if they had spent those years gaining some experience in the field they wanted to jump into, but in so many cases, it seems like they have just been messing around wasting time and are just now realizing that bills don't pay themselves and that they need a job.

heng, here, our kids dont start until after 22-23 to study: first finish high school, then one year volunteering (nto a requirement but highly 'suggested' volunteering in hospitals, renovating neighborhoods, various programs approved by the army so they get one year pre army allowing them to mature a bit,)then, 2-4 yrs army or more if officer, one year break like a gap year thing to work/travel, then studies. and the studies here are not the american dormitory party style studying. they scrunch four years into 2-3 yrs while holding down any kinds of jobs possible, and basically only those with money can study. all the other suckers either do short certificates or they do what most people in asia seem to do: look for 'protection' among their friends/associates to get a job that they might not fit, and then try to fit into it. and most of the time they succeed. but for a vast majority of jobs nowadays, that piece of paper means that yor salary gets brownie points so u will earn more then someone in the same job w/o that document. community style colleges are popping up all over the place as factories for degrees, mostly business/high tech stuff. no humanities or arts. somehow i always feel thailadn is like israel was when i first came here, the same attitudes, practices, changes, everything in a time lag situation, with a far eastern twist-- even face here is the same.

[GM1955]

Bill Gates and Richard Branson might not themselves have degrees but go check the recruiting policies of the companies they run - They seek out and employ the very best graduates they can get their hands on.

Of course, but they're smart to enough to be the employer, not the employee, graduates flock to these companies and so Bill and Richard have their pick, Alan sugar had nought and left school at 16 with nothing and started selling car aerials from an old van that he got for 100 Pounds, now he's worth hundreds of millions of Pounds and one of the richest men in UK.

I know guys in Thailand that have retired in their 40's and have enough money not too worry about the future, to me, they're pretty smart.

Still working at that age as an employee, you're just one of the masses of people who do exactly the same thing, day in and day out all over the world. Mind you, these guys were employees mainly, but in high paying jobs in O&G.

I know a girl in a gogo earning 150,000 Baht per month, from Bar only, offs, drinks, ST/LT payments for company etc etc and thats without all the money that besotted Farangs send her direct to her bank account, shes a big earner, One Japanese guy gave her 100,000 yen for a night, ( 35-36,000 Baht ) I wanna marry her but she said she can't afford to stop work, I told her I had no intention of trying to make her stop work, the money she earns that would be a silly move, she turned me down !!