WIKILEAKS FOUNDER JULIAN ASSANGE FREED ON BAIL

[mark45y]

Mankind has settled its differences with wars since the beginning of its existence. If you think that you can put a stop to it somehow, have at it. However, disseminating stolen documents and violating national security is still a crime and it is very possible that Mr. Assange will have to answer for it.

You didn't answer the question.

Ok, help me out here, yes and no suffices as a reply:

- It is your statement that anyone disseminating stolen documents are open to be killed by anyone for their crimes?

- Do you also think that crimes of worse nature should give the same, or worse, treatment?

- Do you think that disseminating stolen documents is a worse crime than murder, rape, incest etc?

Wouldn't it be nice if we could hold people to yes and no answers. Heck I can't even get people to answer what I consider viable questions.

I do think I see here a difference of reading reality. I think UG thinks the US is at war and you don't. Or at least that it not a good war.

Somehow I think if Wikileaks published the location and capability of the newly installed British radar sites during the Battle of Britain you might think they had done something wrong.

Am I correct?

[LaoPo]

....... next to the fact that Bob Beckel is also a columnist in USA TODAY, a daily newspaper which has a nation wide circulation of 1.8 copies and remains the widest circulated print newspaper in the United States.

LaoPo

I assume most members noticed I forgot mentioning 1.8 MILLION copies....instead 1.8 copies.....:jap:

Mea Culpa.

LaoPo

[chuckd]

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

Come on. 99% of Americans had no idea who he was until the recent media attention and in two weeks he will be completely forgotten. He is not a "high profile" anything.

Not only some should learn the meaning of "High Profile" again and maybe some were too young to realize that Bob Beckel was Walter Mondale's Presidential Campaign Manager back in 1984.

But apart from that, to claim that 99% of the Americans have no idea who Bob Beckel was/is isn't aware that Fox News Channel reach more than 100+ Million American Households (multiply that number by 2.56* to keep the total low...at around 250 Million Americans able to watch Fox News) next to the fact that Bob Beckel is also a columnist in USA TODAY, a daily newspaper which has a nation wide circulation of 1.8 copies and remains the widest circulated print newspaper in the United States.

And, I'm not even talking about the exposure on Internet both Fox and USA Today have amongst Americans.

Knowing this, it's totally incorrect (to put it mildly) to claim that 99% of the Americans had no idea who Bob Beckel is/was.

That would be the same as saying that Americans are no-brainers and dummies when it comes to their own media news sources and claiming they are not watching tv or reading/watching/learning other media.

In 2010, in response to the whistle-blower website WikiLeaks disseminating various leaked classified material, Bob Beckel and Bo Dietl called for the assassination of the website's spokesman Julian Assange ^[4]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Bob_Beckel

* http://www.infopleas...a/A0005055.html

LaoPo

Bo Dietl? <deleted> is a Bo Dietl? I never heard of the guy. You sure you didn't mean Bo Diddley? Him I have heard of.

So now you are espousing Bob Beckel and Bo Dietl as the two "high profile Americans" calling for Assange's death?

Bob Beckel was Walter Mondale's campaign manager in 1984? So what? Mondale lost to Reagan and nobody remembers who Reagan's campaign manager was, much less Mondale's.

All you Aussies raise your hands now. How many of you ever heard of these two high profile Americans?

Now on to your claim that 250 million Americans are "able" to watch Fox News. Let me point out the latest rankings as of the week ending 6 December 2010.

Fox News is ranked fourth among all networks with an audience of 1.992 million. It seems you have overstated the total by only 248.08 million viewers.

Your 250 million possible viewers is ridiculous and hardly deserves disproving. It is easily done, but not tonight.

My suggestion to you is...when you find yourself in a hole, it is time to stop digging.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/category/ratings

[philw]

Mankind has settled its differences with wars since the beginning of its existence. If you think that you can put a stop to it somehow, have at it. However, disseminating stolen documents and violating national security is still a crime and it is very possible that Mr. Assange will have to answer for it.

You didn't answer the question.

Ok, help me out here, yes and no suffices as a reply:

- It is your statement that anyone disseminating stolen documents are open to be killed by anyone for their crimes?

- Do you also think that crimes of worse nature should give the same, or worse, treatment?

- Do you think that disseminating stolen documents is a worse crime than murder, rape, incest etc?

Wouldn't it be nice if we could hold people to yes and no answers. Heck I can't even get people to answer what I consider viable questions.

I do think I see here a difference of reading reality. I think UG thinks the US is at war and you don't. Or at least that it not a good war.

Somehow I think if Wikileaks published the location and capability of the newly installed British radar sites during the Battle of Britain you might think they had done something wrong.

Am I correct?

So far, to my knowledge, no strategic military info has been published.

I would also think that in WW2 the Germans had pretty good intell about those radar sites.

If I recall correctly many were in fact targeted ( the masts of some were visible from France ) but they were very difficult to destroy by bombing because they consisted mainly of thin, strung wiring.

IF WL were publishing the immediate location of, say, an American nuclear or military asset you would have a point, but as it is so far, most cables released are diplomatic commentary and I think fair game on the grounds that the world has a right to know how these people who influence and affect our lives think.

Who spies on the spies ?? ( and why is it necessary ?? )

[Ulysses G.]

Mankind has settled its differences with wars since the beginning of its existence. If you think that you can put a stop to it somehow, have at it. However, disseminating stolen documents and violating national security is still a crime and it is very possible that Mr. Assange will have to answer for it.

You didn't answer the question.

Ok, help me out here, yes and no suffices as a reply:

- It is your statement that anyone disseminating stolen documents are open to be killed by anyone for their crimes?

- Do you also think that crimes of worse nature should give the same, or worse, treatment?

- Do you think that disseminating stolen documents is a worse crime than murder, rape, incest etc?

No, not by anyone and it depends what damage is cause by disseminating the information.

Perhaps. It depends what damage is cause by disseminating the information.

Not necessarily, but it depends what damage is cause by disseminating the information.

[LaoPo]

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

Come on. 99% of Americans had no idea who he was until the recent media attention and in two weeks he will be completely forgotten. He is not a "high profile" anything.

Not only some should learn the meaning of "High Profile" again and maybe some were too young to realize that Bob Beckel was Walter Mondale's Presidential Campaign Manager back in 1984.

But apart from that, to claim that 99% of the Americans have no idea who Bob Beckel was/is isn't aware that Fox News Channel reach more than 100+ Million American Households (multiply that number by 2.56* to keep the total low...at around 250 Million Americans able to watch Fox News) next to the fact that Bob Beckel is also a columnist in USA TODAY, a daily newspaper which has a nation wide circulation of 1.8 copies and remains the widest circulated print newspaper in the United States.

And, I'm not even talking about the exposure on Internet both Fox and USA Today have amongst Americans.

Knowing this, it's totally incorrect (to put it mildly) to claim that 99% of the Americans had no idea who Bob Beckel is/was.

That would be the same as saying that Americans are no-brainers and dummies when it comes to their own media news sources and claiming they are not watching tv or reading/watching/learning other media.

In 2010, in response to the whistle-blower website WikiLeaks disseminating various leaked classified material, Bob Beckel and Bo Dietl called for the assassination of the website's spokesman Julian Assange ^[4]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Bob_Beckel

* http://www.infopleas...a/A0005055.html

LaoPo

Bo Dietl? <deleted> is a Bo Dietl? I never heard of the guy. You sure you didn't mean Bo Diddley? Him I have heard of.

So now you are espousing Bob Beckel and Bo Dietl as the two "high profile Americans" calling for Assange's death?

Bob Beckel was Walter Mondale's campaign manager in 1984? So what? Mondale lost to Reagan and nobody remembers who Reagan's campaign manager was, much less Mondale's.

All you Aussies raise your hands now. How many of you ever heard of these two high profile Americans?

Now on to your claim that 250 million Americans are "able" to watch Fox News. Let me point out the latest rankings as of the week ending 6 December 2010.

Fox News is ranked fourth among all networks with an audience of 1.992 million. It seems you have overstated the total by only 248.08 million viewers.

Your 250 million possible viewers is ridiculous and hardly deserves disproving. It is easily done, but not tonight.

My suggestion to you is...when you find yourself in a hole, it is time to stop digging.

http://www.mediabist...ategory/ratings

Instead of ridiculing your own American Press I suggest you read my post a little better; the last sentence was a quote from Wiki in case you missed it.

Next, the poster I answered to said that 99% of the Americans didn't hear about Bob Beckel before his outcry for assassination of Assange.

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Note: I also suggest you behave a little bit more polite, stick to the content instead the poster, OK?

It's fine if you disagree with any poster but debate the content.

LaoPo

Edited December 17, 2010 by LaoPo

[mark45y]

Mankind has settled its differences with wars since the beginning of its existence. If you think that you can put a stop to it somehow, have at it. However, disseminating stolen documents and violating national security is still a crime and it is very possible that Mr. Assange will have to answer for it.

You didn't answer the question.

Ok, help me out here, yes and no suffices as a reply:

- It is your statement that anyone disseminating stolen documents are open to be killed by anyone for their crimes?

- Do you also think that crimes of worse nature should give the same, or worse, treatment?

- Do you think that disseminating stolen documents is a worse crime than murder, rape, incest etc?

Wouldn't it be nice if we could hold people to yes and no answers. Heck I can't even get people to answer what I consider viable questions.

I do think I see here a difference of reading reality. I think UG thinks the US is at war and you don't. Or at least that it not a good war.

Somehow I think if Wikileaks published the location and capability of the newly installed British radar sites during the Battle of Britain you might think they had done something wrong.

Am I correct?

So far, to my knowledge, no strategic military info has been published.

I would also think that in WW2 the Germans had pretty good intell about those radar sites.

If I recall correctly many were in fact targeted ( the masts of some were visible from France ) but they were very difficult to destroy by bombing because they consisted mainly of thin, strung wiring.

IF WL were publishing the immediate location of, say, an American nuclear or military asset you would have a point, but as it is so far, most cables released are diplomatic commentary and I think fair game on the grounds that the world has a right to know how these people who influence and affect our lives think.

Who spies on the spies ?? ( and why is it necessary ?? )

It was only a few days ago that Wikileaks published what many newspapers referred to as a “terrorists hit list” of strategic assets of the US around the world.

But that is not really the point. The point is that you or people like you, are confident to evaluate any information and decide if it is or not of strategic value.

When I was a kid I worked for the government for a while. My job was to compile lists of commodities shipped by freighter from Poland. All the information was published in newspapers. I read the newspapers and recorded the information. It wasn't secret information. But it was put together with lots of other information and conclusions were drawn from that information.

I submit that most people don't have the knowledge to discern what is strategic information and what is not strategic information.

It is the same with your dismissal of the radar installations in Britain. You might want to Google “the spies who lost the battle of Britain.”

[TAWP]

It was only a few days ago that Wikileaks published what many newspapers referred to as a “terrorists hit list” of strategic assets of the US around the world.

One article called it that and some publications choose to follow - headlines sells news.

BBC and others noted that the list was broad (as it was requested from *all* embassies etc), imprecise and over-scoping.

Mineral-mines in Africa? Hospital in Denmark? Are they important - sure, but not of strategic value.

Apart from many of the listings lacking addresses or location-info apart from city or region.

With this kind of definition I am surprised they haven't closed down the publication of the Yellow pages yet or deactivated the 411-line as someone could ask for directions to some place of some remote value...

This all assuming Terrorists don't already have a grasp of good targets...besides the fact that they often more than happy to just blow up hotels and restaurants...were they included too? Hope they can arrest everybody that lists restaurants online. Those hooligans.

Besides, anti-war activists don't seem to have any problems getting into top-secret or restricted sites, damaging submarines, fighter jets etc in their peace-nick agenda...all without the help of WikiLeaks ever publishing the line 'military base' or 'airport' as a target...

[cdnvic]

Off topic post deleted. May I remind everyone that directing people to articles that are disrespectful to any member of the Thai Royal Family, however obliquely presented, can get you thrown out of here.

[Ulysses G.]

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Actually, this is what you said:

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

You claimed that they know who he is, not that they are "able" to watch Fox News and might know who he is.

[Ulysses G.]

It was only a few days ago that Wikileaks published what many newspapers referred to as a "terrorists hit list" of strategic assets of the US around the world.

This all assuming Terrorists don't already have a grasp of good targets...besides the fact that they often more than happy to just blow up hotels and restaurants...were they included too? Hope they can arrest everybody that lists restaurants online. Those hooligans.

Besides, anti-war activists don't seem to have any problems getting into top-secret or restricted sites, damaging submarines, fighter jets etc in their peace-nick agenda...all without the help of WikiLeaks ever publishing the line 'military base' or 'airport' as a target...

Giving terrorists more "good" targets is deplorable. Splitting hairs about some of the targets not being optimum does not change the fact that some of them are.

[LaoPo]

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Actually, this is what you said:

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

You claimed that they know who he is, not that they are "able" to watch Fox News and might know who he is.

Maybe you're underestimating your fellow citizens when YOU said that 99% of the Americans didn't hear about him before he said Assange should be shot

LaoPo

[Carib]

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Actually, this is what you said:

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

You claimed that they know who he is, not that they are "able" to watch Fox News and might know who he is.

Ah, I see, so what you are basically saying and a few others who don't respond to the real issue, that if nobody knows who the guy is that it is ok for him, the " unknown american", to say that someone should be shot. And not just say that to for instance his friends or neighbors, but during a broadcast on national television. Nice, very nice.

[cdnvic]

If you guys are just going to engage in pedantic nitpicking I'm going to close this. Either discuss the topic, or it's done.

[mark45y]

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Actually, this is what you said:

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

You claimed that they know who he is, not that they are "able" to watch Fox News and might know who he is.

Ah, I see, so what you are basically saying and a few others who don't respond to the real issue, that if nobody knows who the guy is that it is ok for him, the " unknown american", to say that someone should be shot. And not just say that to for instance his friends or neighbors, but during a broadcast on national television. Nice, very nice.

Is it OK to shoot spies in wartime?

[hammered]

Basically all this comes down to is that the US government will do anything they can to make an example of Assange so nobody will ever do this again. Either you support that because you believe the US government/governmental system or governments/governmental systems in general are doing things to protect the interests of people in the country governed or even of wider society, or you dont trust governments and believe the only protection against them either for the people governed by them or others is for everything they do to be public, or you believe in something in between.

I tend more to the only protection citizens have against their government or other governments is everything or at least as much as possible is known to the maximum number of people worldwide. Others obviously differ in their opinion and in reality those of us left discussing this issue now are hardly likely to change opinion

[hammered]

e]

Is it OK to shoot spies in wartime?

No but that gets into a debate on capital punishment that may make this whole round of disagreement even more explosive so lets leave that alone;)

[LaoPo]

Basically all this comes down to is that the US government will do anything they can to make an example of Assange so nobody will ever do this again. Either you support that because you believe the US government/governmental system or governments/governmental systems in general are doing things to protect the interests of people in the country governed or even of wider society, or you dont trust governments and believe the only protection against them either for the people governed by them or others is for everything they do to be public, or you believe in something in between.

I tend more to the only protection citizens have against their government or other governments is everything or at least as much as possible is known to the maximum number of people worldwide. Others obviously differ in their opinion and in reality those of us left discussing this issue now are hardly likely to change opinion

What some people miss in the WikiLeaks Affair is that they forget that our present Governments are more and more into cheating and fooling upon their own people, implementing so called secrecy- and special laws in order to "protect" the country and it's citizens for the bad outside world and dangerous countries.

Reality is that these secret laws and secret actions are to protect and hide their OWN actions and fears that they will be known to the public.

The present WikiLeaks Affair and the past PENTAGON PAPERS Affair showed that people can't be fooled and that the truth will come out one day, sooner or later.

The more WikiLeaks and Assange are gagged and tried to be stopped, the more people and whistleblowers will stand up and more and more Governments, all over the world, will face the anger of the people and whistle blowers.

We don't know yet how many whistle blowers are out there but there must be many hundreds or even thousands inside many Governments waiting for their turn.

It's about time our Governments learn to play fair instead of fooling and lying upon their own people.

You can't fool the People...NEVER.

The truth will come out, -ALWAYS- no matter how, no matter when, but it will !

LaoPo

[softgeorge]

The Australian Prime Minister, Atorney General and the Federal Police have all confirmed that he has commited no offence was in the Australian media today.

Correction. No offense in Australia.

Yes and isn't it wonderful that Australians are afforded the freedom to express themselves and say what they want without the fear of prosecution. Australia truely is a free society. It would not harm the U.S to allow it's citizens a little of the freedom that Australia gives her citizens.

[Ulysses G.]

When a totalitarian country like China pretty much controls the rest of the world due to the anarchy that could be caused by these kind of actions, it will be too late for the '"free thinkers" to aplogize for what they have done.

[Ulysses G.]

The Australian Prime Minister, Atorney General and the Federal Police have all confirmed that he has commited no offence was in the Australian media today.

Correction. No offense in Australia.

Yes and isn't it wonderful that Australians are afforded the freedom to express themselves and say what they want without the fear of prosecution. Australia truely is a free society. It would not harm the U.S to allow it's citizens a little of the freedom that Australia gives her citizens.

Who are you trying to BS? If they were Australian state secrets, it is possible that he could be charged. The reason that he has not broken any Australian laws is because they are American documents.

[JUDAS]

The WL situation from the US authorities position is not a clear cut case of prosecuting Assange for what they believe/think is an illegal act. A search on google shows, IMO , that Assange can quite simply be charged with receiving stolen property. This would be a fairly straight forward case to prosecute as Assange has openly admitted possession of the leaked documents.

Why then has the USA not made initial charges against Assange? The US, I believe , are in a very difficult position as far as legal action is concerned. The danger lies in Assange supporters and possibly the media labeling him a " political prisoner " or " prisoner of conscience" etc , possibly a far fetched scenario for some ATM but public opinion is fickle. Of course, if Assange was already a convicted "sex offender" the public, overall, may well be less likely to jump to his defence.

IMO, this will be a long, drawn out process on the US side. They do not want to end up with a political hot potato in their hands, potentially more politically damaging than the leaks themselves. The last thing the USA needs, is to be holding someone in their prison system who becomes a rallying point for the 'freedom of the press' brigade.

[mark45y]

e]

Is it OK to shoot spies in wartime?

No but that gets into a debate on capital punishment that may make this whole round of disagreement even more explosive so lets leave that alone;)

Is it OK for a soldier to shoot an enemy who is shooting at him during wartime?

[hammered]

e]

Is it OK to shoot spies in wartime?

No but that gets into a debate on capital punishment that may make this whole round of disagreement even more explosive so lets leave that alone;)

Is it OK for a soldier to shoot an enemy who is shooting at him during wartime?

That is what soldiers do. They also often shoot at those that arent enemy combatants which of course is not OK. It is of course governments that create wars too although right now most of the engagements going on are not wars because governments dodge the technical legal framework of declaring them.

That though has nothing to do with the leaking of information to expose corrupt governments though beyond those exposing soldiers who commit atrocities and crimes are generally feted by society;)

[JUDAS]

Even wartime spies receive a trial.

[hammered]

Basically all this comes down to is that the US government will do anything they can to make an example of Assange so nobody will ever do this again. Either you support that because you believe the US government/governmental system or governments/governmental systems in general are doing things to protect the interests of people in the country governed or even of wider society, or you dont trust governments and believe the only protection against them either for the people governed by them or others is for everything they do to be public, or you believe in something in between.

I tend more to the only protection citizens have against their government or other governments is everything or at least as much as possible is known to the maximum number of people worldwide. Others obviously differ in their opinion and in reality those of us left discussing this issue now are hardly likely to change opinion

What some people miss in the WikiLeaks Affair is that they forget that our present Governments are more and more into cheating and fooling upon their own people, implementing so called secrecy- and special laws in order to "protect" the country and it's citizens for the bad outside world and dangerous countries.

Reality is that these secret laws and secret actions are to protect and hide their OWN actions and fears that they will be known to the public.

The present WikiLeaks Affair and the past PENTAGON PAPERS Affair showed that people can't be fooled and that the truth will come out one day, sooner or later.

The more WikiLeaks and Assange are gagged and tried to be stopped, the more people and whistleblowers will stand up and more and more Governments, all over the world, will face the anger of the people and whistle blowers.

We don't know yet how many whistle blowers are out there but there must be many hundreds or even thousands inside many Governments waiting for their turn.

It's about time our Governments learn to play fair instead of fooling and lying upon their own people.

You can't fool the People...NEVER.

The truth will come out, -ALWAYS- no matter how, no matter when, but it will !

LaoPo

All very true.

[mark45y]

New Zealand wanted to save some money on defense spending so they concocted anti-nuclear legislation to get out of their obligations under the ANZAS alliance.

I doubt if the NZ government wanted the people to know they had fooled into thinking the Kiwi government was anti-nuclear instead of just trying to save a buck and let the Yanks and Aussies pay the bill.

Another leaked cable, published last week, said United States and New Zealand ended their 25-year break in intelligence collaboration last year but decided to keep the the news secret.

I would imagine there were reasons the NZ government wanted to keep this secret. Do you all think it is Julian's prerogative to decide state secrets for New Zealand?

[metisdead]

One obliquely presented off topic post directing people to articles disrespectful of the Thai Royal Family removed from view.

[chuckd]

Also: I said that there were 100+ million American Households, able to watch Fox News which comes to around 250 million Americans able to watch Fox; I never said they would, were or are doing so.

Actually, this is what you said:

I don't know if you consider Bob Beckel to be a High Profile American but surely 100+ Millions of Americans know who he is....

You claimed that they know who he is, not that they are "able" to watch Fox News and might know who he is.

Maybe you're underestimating your fellow citizens when YOU said that 99% of the Americans didn't hear about him before he said Assange should be shot

LaoPo

1. The US Census Bureau estimated population of the US in 2010 is 308,400,408.

http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/12/30/us-population-2010-308-million-and-growing

2. The audience for Fox News as of 6 December 2010 was 1,992,000.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/category/ratings

3.The total distribution of USA Today as of March 2010 was 1,800,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Today

4. Audience numbers of Fox News and USA Today total 3,792,000.

5. One percent of the US Population is 3,084,004.

6. Based on the wild presumption that 100% of Fox News viewers and USA Today readers know who Bob Beckel is, then a total of 1.19% of the US population is aware of him. This would mean that 98.81% of the US population are not familiar with him.

7. There is no mathematical possibility 100+ millions of Americans have EVER heard of him.

Conclusion. Bob Beckel is NOT a "high profile American".

[TAWP]

Do you guys honestly use the American peoples ignorance about the elected MP's as an argument that we cannot mention that a person of CONGRESS went on TV and told everyone watching that a person should be murdered?