Hamas leader says it will never recognize Israel

[Ulysses G.]

I guess that means the US govt shouldn't be so supportive of the Israel govt.

Israel and the U.S. are close allies, so of course they should support them. In fact, they are the only ally that the U.S. can be sure to rely on for anything important in the Middle East.

The U.S. started helping them as the USSR was backing the Arabs with with tons of weapons and intelligence information and it progressed from there.

[kuffki]

By the way, i do not recall who was the poster who posted an article about Rabbi's refusing to rent or sell to non jews, especially Arabs, well here is a reaction from the rest of the Rabbi's and Jewish society

Hundreds of rabbis(750 already) from around the world signed a petition eariler this week, criticizing the recent halachic ruling from community rabbis in Israel that forbids leasing property to non-Jews.

The Rabbis against Religious Discrimination petition has over 750 signatories, stating that the ruling "has caused great shock and pain in our communities. The attempt to root discriminatory policies based on religion or ethnicity in Torah is a painful distortion of our tradition." http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=199360

President Shimon Peres issued a sharp rebuke on Wednesday against the rabbis who published an edict forbidding the rental or sale of housing to non-Jews.

In a strongly worded statement, Peres said that the rabbis were generating a moral crisis that ran counter to the essence of a Jewish and democratic state, and were thereby doing great harm to the State of Israel. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=198631

Knesset members and civil rights organizations condemned the petition released on Tuesday, in which nearly 50 rabbis, including municipal rabbis paid by the state, said that Jews should not allow gentiles to rent or buy their homes.

"This is the worst kind of racism, which comes from rabbis who are paid by the state" MK Nitzan Horowitz (Meretz) said on Tuesday. "All they do is encourage hatred and destroy Israeli democracy." http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=198368

With a view toward possible prosecutions, Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein has instructed his office to examine whether “criminal and disciplinary aspects allegedly exist” in the letter signed by nearly 50 municipal rabbis that prohibits renting or selling a house or plot of land to a non-Jew in Israel.

“The attorney-general believes that... the statements attributed to the rabbis raise problems in a number of aspects, and apparently – at least in regard to people with a public position – are not in keeping with appropriate public conduct,” an aide to Weinstein, attorney Noa Mishor, wrote MK Ilan Gilon (Meretz) on Thursday, in respond to his recent demand that the rabbis’ letter be examined. http://www.jpost.com/home/article.aspx?id=198787

Minorities Affairs Minister Avishay Braverman on Wednesday called on Justice Minister Yaakov Ne'eman to immediately suspend Safed Chief Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu for his ruling banning the renting or sale of Jewish-owned apartments to Arabs in the northern city, Radio Israel reported.

Rabbi Eliyahu has abused his position to engage in a racist campaign against Arabs in contradiction of the peaceful spirit of Judaism, Braveman told Ne'eman in a letter he wrote. He added, the incitement against Arabs harms the social fabric in the Galilee region and Arab-Jewish relations in the area and does not advance the state interests that a municipal rabbi should serve.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=195785

Now can anyone post for me what happens in Palestine when Hamas proclaims death to Israel and all other hateful statements???

[Ulysses G.]

By the way, i do not recall who was the poster who posted an article about Rabbi's refusing to rent or sell to non jews, especially Arabs, well here is a reaction from the rest of the Rabbi's and Jewish society

If I remember correctly, that would be siampolee. I'm sure that he will be on soon to apologize for his earlier statements.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Pakboong]

Well the haters keep claiming that Israel is taking PALESTINIAN LAND, perhaps those can post some land registration papers to show that the land did and does indeed belong to Palestine.

then those haters keep referring to 1967, may be those need a reminder of who started the war in 1967 and who attacked whom?Let me rephrase that a little, who created a problem and provoked the war???Brief version would be here http://en.wikipedia....iki/Six-Day_War

Territorial changes: Israel captured the Gaza Strip and theSinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria

So can haters please explain to me what does Palestine have to do with land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan????????

Keeping in mind that Westpac and Gaza has been given to Palestine

and back to the topic. Now none of the haters can claim that Hamas offered to recognize Israel, so sadly they have no one to blame for failure of peace talks and Gaza blockade but themselves.

To have an opinion about this matter that does not agree with yours does not mean one is a hater. This particular orientation is at the heart of the disagreement between the two sides.

[koheesti]

As ye sow , so ye shall reap.

That pretty much explains the bad string of luck the Palestinians have been suffering through the past 60+ years.

[flying]

As ye sow , so ye shall reap.

That pretty much explains the bad string of luck the Palestinians have been suffering through the past 60+ years.

Oh? Bad example .....Considering the other side that has suffered bad luck since biblical times?

Edited December 15, 2010 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

Well the haters keep claiming that Israel is taking PALESTINIAN LAND, perhaps those can post some land registration papers to show that the land did and does indeed belong to Palestine.

To have an opinion about this matter that does not agree with yours does not mean one is a hater.

True enough, but if one posts certain kinds of things on a regular basis, it can get a little suspicious.

You seem to be very selective about what evidence you present or pay attention to...

Should it matter that the chairman of BBC, Michael Grade happens to be Jewish?

[kuffki]

Well the haters keep claiming that Israel is taking PALESTINIAN LAND, perhaps those can post some land registration papers to show that the land did and does indeed belong to Palestine.

then those haters keep referring to 1967, may be those need a reminder of who started the war in 1967 and who attacked whom?Let me rephrase that a little, who created a problem and provoked the war???Brief version would be here http://en.wikipedia....iki/Six-Day_War

Territorial changes: Israel captured the Gaza Strip and theSinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria

So can haters please explain to me what does Palestine have to do with land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan????????

Keeping in mind that Westpac and Gaza has been given to Palestine

and back to the topic. Now none of the haters can claim that Hamas offered to recognize Israel, so sadly they have no one to blame for failure of peace talks and Gaza blockade but themselves.

To have an opinion about this matter that does not agree with yours does not mean one is a hater. This particular orientation is at the heart of the disagreement between the two sides.

First you need to post your opinion and let others decide, rather then comment what you think your opinion may be.

[kuffki]

As ye sow , so ye shall reap.

That pretty much explains the bad string of luck the Palestinians have been suffering through the past 60+ years.

Oh? Bad example .....Considering the other side that has suffered bad luck since biblical times?

Well, lets look at past 60 years for Israel

3 full on Wars, suicide bombers, rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbullah, death threats from Iran. No need to go to biblical times

[Ulysses G.]

Well, lets look at past 60 years for Israel

3 full on Wars, suicide bombers, rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbullah, death threats from Iran. No need to go to biblical times

The fact that they are still here and have built a thriving country, despite all the hate mongers, suggests that they have pretty good Karma.

[siampolee]

Siampolee apologies to no-one.

My views my thoughts are in line with many others as no doubt are the views of my critics.

Strangely enough those views and the views of my detractors are known outside in the world as, ''Free Speech.'' As a someone who is a contributor to the news media in the U.K. I understand free speech unlike some of our less liberal posters

It always amazes me that if one dares to criticise the state of Israel how one is labelled a anti Semite, a hater, any one who dares to stand up and speak their mind is shouted down by the xenophobic Thai based supporters of the state of Israel.

These very same right wingers choose to live here in Thailand rather than their beloved Israel. Indeed one wonders why that is so and what their actual agenda may be?

I've spent time in Israel and also the Arab states indeed I came into contact with many Israeli's and Arabs in both areas who are not intent on warfare and desire to live in peace as do their Arab and Israeli neighbours.

It is the Zionist's who are the problem, not the man and woman in the street. If there is such a burning desire according to many of our correspondents to quote, ''Sweep Israel into the sea.'' Please explain to we lesser folks why the Arab states have not co-ordinated their efforts military and politically wise to achieve such a result ?

The answer is that in truth they are not overly concerned about Israel unlike the Zionists who delight in instilling fear as the means to extend their extremist views and their somewhat dubious actions.

Edited December 16, 2010 by siampolee

[Ulysses G.]

It always amazes me that if one dares to criticise the state of Israel how one is labelled a anti Semite, a hater...

That might have something to do with the fact that many anti-Semites claim to only hate the government of Israel, but lump all Jews together every chance they get as if they are all in some giant conspiracy.

The World News forum has had a number of examples of posters posting anti-Semitic links in threads about Israel - but nothing to do with Israel - and blaming Jews for the holocaust and then questioning why anyone would be suspicious about their views on Israel's policies.

Sometimes, not always, when there is smoke there is also a fire and anti-Semites are still around in a big way.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Xangsamhua]

Well, lets look at past 60 years for Israel

3 full on Wars, suicide bombers, rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbullah, death threats from Iran. No need to go to biblical times

The fact that they are still here and have built a thriving country, despite all the hate mongers, suggests that they have pretty good Karma.

Perhaps it has something to do with a belief in reason and the value of science, a rich cultural and intellectual heritage, concern for the welfare of their people, a relatively decent education system (nothing special - 37th on the PISA rankings, but superior to all Arab and Muslim states) and, as Siampolee's comments indirectly imply, the real possibility of elimination at the hands of one's neighbours concentrates one's mind and efforts wonderfully.

[Ulysses G.]

If there is such a burning desire according to many of our correspondents to quote, ''Sweep Israel into the sea.'' Please explain to we lesser folks why the Arab states have not co-ordinated their efforts military and politically wise to achieve such a result ?

Are you really not aware that they have tried to numerous times and have ended up getting their butts kicked?

In fact, if the Arab leaders had not lied to each other and their people, they might have been victorious in 1973 as they were given advanced weapons and intelligence information by the USSR - which they mostly ignored - and they were able to launch a sneak attack without being detected.

Anyone who claims that the surrounding countries would not destroy Israel if they could is either not being honest or is very gullible.

[kuffki]

If there is such a burning desire according to many of our correspondents to quote, ''Sweep Israel into the sea.'' Please explain to we lesser folks why the Arab states have not co-ordinated their efforts military and politically wise to achieve such a result ?

Are you really not aware that they have tried to numerous times and have ended up getting their butts kicked?

In fact, if the Arab leaders had not lied to each other and their people, they might have been victorious in 1973 as they were given advanced weapons and intelligence information by the USSR - which they mostly ignored - and they were able to launch a sneak attack without being detected.

Anyone who claims that the surrounding countries would not destroy Israel if they could is either not being honest or is very gullible.

Yeah the thousands of rockets from Hamas and Hezbullah are Christmas presents fireworks aimed at putting smiles on peoples faces

Its sad to know that Israel has bomb shelters and a warning system in place and pretty good, well equipped defense force and security force

[geriatrickid]

I'm tired of the continual rehash of exagerated claims and the continued blame game. The region's problems are due to the worst aspects of human behaviour: Greed, hatred, fear, envy and ignorance.

Fact: Egypt controlled the Gaza strip, which is now occupied by non indigeneous Arabs. The indigeneous Bedouin people have been pushed aside and their land expropriated by Hamas. Not one of the Europeans in ThaiVisa complaining about Israel acknowledges this crime. Aside from the Bedouins, the local residents for the most part have no historic links to the area.

In 2005, Israel handed over the Gaza strip in the "land for peace" deal. The agreement was that in return for pulling out, there would be no attacks. That didn't last long, did it? When Israel gave the Gaza back, it also turned over millions of dollars worth of state of the art greenhouses and agricultural equipment. Jewish charities had paid Israel to leave the greenhouses and equipment behind. Infrastructure investments in sewers and power supply were also left behind. Shortly after the PLA handover, the equipment was looted and the structures were vandalized. Again, not one word from the TVF crowd on that.

Fact: The Bedouins were able to live in peace with their Israeli neighbours and had rleatively good paying jobs in the agricultural sector. They could access medical care and social services. After the handover, there was a smal period of calm. And then Hamas came into power and the violence escalated. Suicide bombers and terrorists took advantage of the border crossings. Israel implemented restrictions. The end result was that thousands of Bedouins lost their income and suffered.

Fact: Hamas claims it is popularly elected and in charge of Gaza. If that is the case, then Hamas must take responsibility for the almost daily hostile attacks. Israel is not violating the Gaza border by launching attacks. All Hamas has to do is to suspend the terror attacks and ingress/ egress at the border can be improved. However, Hamas considers itself in a state of war with Israel. North Korea still has an ongoing state of war with South Korea. The border is closed. Lebanon is still in a state of war with Israel. Its border is also closed. Israel is the only country in the world where it faces another party that is at war with it and yet Israel still lets non military goods pass.

[Ulysses G.]

Fact: Egypt controlled the Gaza strip, which is now occupied by non indigeneous Arabs. The indigeneous Bedouin people have been pushed aside and their land expropriated by Hamas. Not one of the Europeans in ThaiVisa complaining about Israel acknowledges this crime. Aside from the Bedouins, the local residents for the most part have no historic links to the area.

In 2005, Israel handed over the Gaza strip in the "land for peace" deal. The agreement was that in return for pulling out, there would be no attacks. That didn't last long, did it?

Fact: Hamas claims it is popularly elected and in charge of Gaza. If that is the case, then Hamas must take responsibility for the almost daily hostile attacks. Israel is not violating the Gaza border by launching attacks. All Hamas has to do is to suspend the terror attacks and ingress/ egress at the border can be improved.

Another excellent FACTUAL post. The posters who litter the site with false propaganda - which can be easily disproved with legitimate historical sources - need to study it carefully.

[flying]

Well, lets look at past 60 years for Israel

3 full on Wars, suicide bombers, rocket attacks from Hamas and Hezbullah, death threats from Iran. No need to go to biblical times

The fact that they are still here and have built a thriving country, despite all the hate mongers, suggests that they have pretty good Karma.

The way Karma works is you move on when you get it right.....Nothing left to burn/learn.... If not your destined to repeat till you learn the lesson...

Wonder what lessons could be gleaned there? As kuffki said much blow back they do receive in various forms....Does not look like good karma ............

[Pakboong]

Well the haters keep claiming that Israel is taking PALESTINIAN LAND, perhaps those can post some land registration papers to show that the land did and does indeed belong to Palestine.

then those haters keep referring to 1967, may be those need a reminder of who started the war in 1967 and who attacked whom?Let me rephrase that a little, who created a problem and provoked the war???Brief version would be here http://en.wikipedia....iki/Six-Day_War

Territorial changes: Israel captured the Gaza Strip and theSinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria

So can haters please explain to me what does Palestine have to do with land from Egypt, Syria and Jordan????????

Keeping in mind that Westpac and Gaza has been given to Palestine

and back to the topic. Now none of the haters can claim that Hamas offered to recognize Israel, so sadly they have no one to blame for failure of peace talks and Gaza blockade but themselves.

To have an opinion about this matter that does not agree with yours does not mean one is a hater. This particular orientation is at the heart of the disagreement between the two sides.

First you need to post your opinion and let others decide, rather then comment what you think your opinion may be.

Still doesn't mean you hate anyone. To disagree does not mean you hate. The number of times you disagree has no bearing on whether or not you hate. You can have an academic opinion that has absolutely nothing to do with hate.

If you do not agree with my view, I do not assume that you hate me or my group. You can disagree with a particular group behavior without hating the group. You can disagree thousands of times and still not hate. It is purely academic for many but I also agree that some simply hate anyone who do not agree with the preferences of a particular group. I just see it wrong to assume hate in an academic disagreement.

[pkspeaker]

Democratic it is not as we had proven in the 'Argentine' thread a few days ago that it is not..and calling the other side racist when israel is an aphartied state:

The Palestinians are not voting in the 'democratic' state, and the way Israel was craeted is by expelling most of the Palestinian population in 1948 and today by racist aphartied, even w/o the expelled refugees palestinians are half the population in the former British Mandate.. but they are denied political rights by aphartied.. Israel is worse than the former aphartied state south africa because at least the whites in south africa never committed such an atrocity, one has to wonder what if the european settlers in south africa had been so criminal as to expell the black africans from south africa, could they then claim some democratic legitimacy?

another thing i mentioned in the revious thread, was even if they are not recognizing, some reports say they are willing to 'recognize' some they don't..but I will repost rom the last thread since this is rehashing a topic that was just done to death, and the same 2 or 3 israeli supporters are here again

post #116 from the previous thread:

[hamas] have agreed to let Abbas negotiate with israel, when he signs a final peace aggreement (for a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders-which is what we know he will negotiate on) that agreement will be put to referendum and the Palestinians can vote on it and Hamas will accept the outcome.. in other words since they were democratically elected, they will not obstruct an agreement that polls show the Palestinian people support.

Hamas is an islamic political organization, right wing jewish israeli parties like the ones in netanyahoos coalition do not accept the existence of Palestine either, it doesn't mean that netanyahoo can't peice together a different coalition and make an agreement and push it through..

The whole 'recognition' issue is just a ploy to sabotage a solution.. who the hell cares what is 'recognized' .. the idea is to draw a border for 2 states, make a permanent ceasefire, and then for israel to end its occupation of the Palestinian state.

Israel is a sovereign state whether their neighbours like it or not (Egypt have come to terms).

Israel has defended its claim and right to the land against the British and the Arab armies. Now it defends its people from terrorist organisations like Hamas.

Israel is a democratic state. The kind of state envisaged by Hamas is totalitarian, sexist and racist.

Would it be right to destroy a democratic and participatory state in order to sustain an atavistic, illiberal and revanchist one?

[pkspeaker]

So i guess my attitude is, given israel's history, and the mess they have created in the west bank for no good reason, which has come at the expense of Palestinian rights.. they should be willing to simply accept a permanent ceace-fire in exchange for a complete withdraw from the west bank.. rather than focusing on the ideological issue of weather 'israel has a right to exist'

[hanuman1]

Anyone who claims that the surrounding countries would not destroy Israel if they could is either not being honest or is very gullible.

I don't think Jordan would, and they're pretty strong militarily but not as militant as one or two others.

Anyway, I was wondering that even given the misguided words of Hamas, would most/all of us agree that there should be some kind of Palestinian state created? Just trying to find some consensus across the 'battle lines' in this debate.

Cheers

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who claims that the surrounding countries would not destroy Israel if they could is either not being honest or is very gullible.

I don't think Jordan would, and they're pretty strong militarily but not as militant as one or two others.

Anyway, I was wondering that even given the misguided words of Hamas, would most/all of us agree that there should be some kind of Palestinian state created? Just trying to find some consensus across the 'battle lines' in this debate.

Cheers

Jordan is less militant, but they have joined the other Arab countries in participating in wars on Israel a number of times. It is not what they say, but what they do.

As far as a Palestinian State goes, yes, when they are not a military threat to Israel. What country would create an enemy state on their borders to attack at will as has been happening in Gaza since Hamas took it over?

[siampolee]

NEWS SOURCE on DECEMBER 16, 2010. http://warincontext.org

To a great extent, Netanyahu and his cabinet are representative of Israeli society today. Public opinion polls point to increasing extremism, bordering on racism, in Jews’ opinion of Arabs, as well as to alienation and a distrust of the other side’s goals and intentions. Given these circumstances, it’s no wonder there is no public pressure on the government to advance the peace process and that there was no significant public response to the dramatic announcement that the talks had been suspended.

When it comes to peace, Israel’s position today is similar to its position after the wars of 1948 and of 1967: The potential for negotiations was there, but the cost was considered too high. Now, too, maintaining the status quo appears to be preferable to making changes that Israelis perceive as threatening, even if they do not necessarily pose a genuine danger.

In the past decade, Israel has faced a number of Arab initiatives: the Arab League peace plan, Syrian offers to negotiate, Palestinian willingness to move forward and even moderate declarations from Hamas. Successive Israeli governments responded to all of them with restraint and icy indifference (with the exception of the waning days of Ehud Olmert’s term as prime minister ).

Israel’s listless response to these proposals cannot be understood as coincidental or circumstantial; it is a pattern of behavior. And Israel has never proffered its own initiative that would indicate a desire for peace. This leads us to the unhappy conclusion that Israel – both its government and its people – are not really interested in peace; at most, they make the sounds of peace, but that is not enough.

Israel does not need to compromise as long as the US stands behind it, with money aid, weapons, other defence backing, and UN Security Council veto cover for any critical sanction, “under any circumstance”.

The circumstances now equate to a rogue nuclear and other illegal WMD state, based on a racist principle of Zionism with apartheid laws, illegally occupying and building on territory, while extending wars of aggression, war crime, ethnic cleansing, state terrorism, torture, murder ….. etc., etc.,

Why should Israel listen to anyone, now that it knows it can tell the US what to do?

Indeed a chilling indictment on the matter.

http://warincontext.org/

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestinians are not voting in the 'democratic' state, and the way Israel was craeted is by expelling most of the Palestinian population in 1948...

You just keep repeating the same historically inaccurate nonsense over and over again.

The Arabs left because they had been told to by the surrounding Arab countries, so it would be easier to "slaughter the Jews" and then more left because they had lost the war and they preferred to go back where the vast majority had come from, rather than live with the Israelis.

There were also cases where some were driven out, but they had been harassing the Jews for decades and there was a lot of resentment about it. Hate is part of war, and the Israelis are not the ones who started it, but the Arabs were allowed to become citizens if they wanted to. The Jews would have all been butchered if they had lost.

Many Palestinian Arabs DO vote, but they had to swear allegiance to Israel first. How many countries allow non-citizens who are openly sworn to their destruction to vote in their elections?

Edited December 16, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

To a great extent, Netanyahu and his cabinet are representative of Israeli society today. Public opinion polls point to increasing extremism, bordering on racism, in Jews' opinion of Arabs, as well as to alienation and a distrust of the other side's goals and intentions.

Now why would that be? Maybe because the Arabs have refused a permanent peace deal on many occasions and have kept up the hate rhetoric and violence?

[pkspeaker]

I think what your saying is the historical non-sence.. The Palestinians left because zionist militias were shelling there civilian areas everyday and committing massacres like dier yasin.. 800,000 people do not just get up and leave because "they had been told to by the surrounding Arab countries, so it would be easier to "slaughter the Jews" ..

Why would it be "easier to slaughter the Jews" if the Palestinian population was removed-this of course exposes what your saying as the huey that it is.. also you assume that if the Arab's had won the war and Palestine had been conquered by the invading arab armies-which were fighting to prevent the creation of a "Jewish State" , the Arabs would have then murdered every jewish man, woman, and child.. more disgusting demagoguery

Keep in mind the Arab response to the 1947 partition plan was that the Jews that had settled in Palestine were a minority and be represented as such, rather than giving them half the country to dominate as an ethnocracy.

Your posts always try to portray Arabs as inherently violent and savage.. White supramacists in the USA and South Africa use to do the same thing with blacks, attempting to tell people that the reason there is violence is not because of injustice and oppression but rather there is violence because a particular race will always be violent-they are genetically wired that way.

We also discussed this "swearing allegiance to Israel as a Jewish state" business in the other thread.. and you never answer this basic question:

Would you ask African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans-to swear allegiance to the USA as a WHITE state, or a European state? Would it be OK that 'many' blacks in America are allowed to vote but most are not allowed because they happen to live in a sealed off bantustan? Asking Palestinians to do this is a trick, if they swear this allegiance they are actually surrendering equal rights..

Also why not ask them to "Swear allegiance to Israel-Palestine as a Jewish-Palestinian state"? Why is it so exclusive? answer that one Mr. TheArabsAreSavagesAndTheJewsAreDemocratic.

The Palestinians are not voting in the 'democratic' state, and the way Israel was craeted is by expelling most of the Palestinian population in 1948...

You just keep repeating the same historically inaccurate nonsense over and over again.

The Arabs left because they had been told to by the surrounding Arab countries, so it would be easier to "slaughter the Jews" and then more left because they had lost the war and they preferred to go back where the vast majority had come from, rather than live with the Israelis.

There were also cases where some were driven out, but they had been harassing the Jews for decades and there was a lot of resentment about it. Hate is part of war, and the Israelis are not the ones who started it, but the Arabs were allowed to become citizens if they wanted to. The Jews would have all been butchered if they had lost.

Many Palestinian Arabs DO vote, but they had to swear allegiance to Israel first. How many countries allow non-citizens who are openly sworn to their destruction to vote in their elections?

[Ulysses G.]

From the horse's mouth:

"Kill a settler every day.... Shoot at settlers everywhere.... Woe to you if you let them reach their homes safely or travel safely on the roads.... I want you to kill as many settlers as possible.... Do not pay attention to what I say to the media, the television or public appearances. Pay attention only to the written instructions that you receive from me."

- Yasser Arafat, addressing his people at a public event, July 2001

"I am ready to kill for the sake of my cause; wouldn't I lie for it?"

- Yasser Arafat

"We with the help of God will meet next time in Jerusalem, because we are fighting in order to bring the victory to our prophets, every baby, every child, every man, every woman, and every older person, and all the youngsters, we will sacrifice ourselves for our holy places, and we will establish the guard on them, and are prepared to give 70 of our martyrs for every martyr of theirs in this campaign, because this is our holy land. We will continue to fight..."

- Yasser Arafat, 18 December 2001, in a speech in Ramallah (reported in Ma'ariv, , English translation at http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=9345), two days after his "historical" speech, in which he called--in Arabic (under European pressure)--for an end to suicide bombings and for a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel

"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937

"Palestine was part of the Province of Syria... politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."

- The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted this in a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

- Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, to the UN Security Council

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian People, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people."

- Syrian President Hafez Assad to PLO leader Yassir Arafat.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."

- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

"The interesting thing about "Palestinians" is that so few of the West Bank Arabs thought of themselves as such before 1967. It post-dates the founding of the PLO: Palestine had a national liberation movement before it had a nationality. Likewise, because the Arab League designated Yasser Arafat as a head of state, we've spent 30 years trying to create a state for him to be head of. Most Arab nationalities -- "Jordanian," "Iraqi" -- were invented by the British Colonial Office in the Twenties, and, although those languid Etonians came up with some evocative and colourful names for their hastily concocted jurisdictions, for the most part they're comprehensive failures as nation states. It hardly seems worth adding another bogus polity to the list."

- Mark Steyn, National Post, April 4, 2002

"The Oslo accords were a Trojan Horse; the strategic goal is the liberation of Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea"

- Faysal Al-Husseini, Palestinian Authority Minister for Jerusalem Affairs, in his last interview, 'Al-Arabi' daily newspaper (Egypt), June 24, 2001

"The Land of Muslim Palestine is a single unit which cannot be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Shechem (Nablus), between Lod and Ramallah, and between Jerusalem and Nazareth . . . the land of Palestine is sacred waqf land for the benefit of all Muslims, east and west. No one has the right to divide it or give up any of it. The liberation of Palestine is obligatory for all the Islamic nations and not only for the Palestinian nation."

- Prayer sermon broadcast live on the PA radio station, April 30, 1999

"According to the Phased Plan, we will establish a Palestinian state on any part of Palestine that the enemy will retreat from. The Palestinian state will be a stage in our prolonged struggle for the liberation of Palestine on all of its territories."

- Abu Iyad, Arafat' s second-in-command, 1988

"After the Palestinian state wins recognition from most of the nations of the world, as expected, the Israeli presence on Palestinian lands will become illegal and we will fight this with weapons. The battle against the Israeli forces is a right reserved to us."

- Farouk Radoumi, head of the PLO's diplomatic desk, in PA newspaper, AL HAYAT AL-JADEEDA, October 15, l998

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children--all this in the service of political purposes...."

- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war

"Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner.... they have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal."

- King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

"The nations of western Europe condemned Israel's position despite their guarantee of her security.... They understood that ... their dependence upon sources of energy precluded their allowing themselves to incur Arab wrath."

- Al-Haytham Al-Ayubi, Arab Palestinian military strategist, 1974

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans who are like them."

- Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, member of the Palestinian Fatwa Council

"Palestine has never existed... as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture.... There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.... Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.... Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today.... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough."

- from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily.Com, 11 October 2000

"The conclusion I drew is that in fact he [Arafat] really can't do a permanent deal. He could never do better than what Clinton put on the table [the bridging proposals presented at the end of December], and he couldn't accept that."

- Dennis Ross, June 22, 2001

[pkspeaker]

Excuse me these are not FACTS, the population of the Gaza strip, which is 1.5 million people in a tiny sliver of land, less than 8kilometers wide and 40km wide, the most densly populated place on Earth, are mostly refugees from the 1948 war, there are no "non-indeginous arabs" in the Gaza strip, they are all Palestinian wheather they are christian, beduins or non-beduin muslim arabs ..

and again this notion that israeli arabs are equal citizens, love the israeli government and are so happy go lucky..

we discussed that this is non-sence on post #43 on the thread a few days ago:

here is an article from haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/displacing-the-bedouin-1.306645

Displacing the Bedouin

It's hard to understand why Israel is pushing a significant sector of its citizens toward extremism and crime.

Twice last week employees of the Israel Lands Administration, with the help of a large police contingent, demolished the homes of around 300 residents in the unrecognized Bedouin village of Al-Arakib in the Negev. Most of them, citizens of the State of Israel, including many children, were left not only without homes, but humiliated, frustrated and shocked. Both times the police were brutal, and neither time did the state offer an alternative, compensation or assistance, either material or psychological, for the people whose village was demolished and world was destroyed. That's how a country treats its citizens. ....

I'm tired of the continual rehash of exagerated claims and the continued blame game. The region's problems are due to the worst aspects of human behaviour: Greed, hatred, fear, envy and ignorance.

Fact: Egypt controlled the Gaza strip, which is now occupied by non indigeneous Arabs. The indigeneous Bedouin people have been pushed aside and their land expropriated by Hamas. Not one of the Europeans in ThaiVisa complaining about Israel acknowledges this crime. Aside from the Bedouins, the local residents for the most part have no historic links to the area.

In 2005, Israel handed over the Gaza strip in the "land for peace" deal. The agreement was that in return for pulling out, there would be no attacks. That didn't last long, did it? When Israel gave the Gaza back, it also turned over millions of dollars worth of state of the art greenhouses and agricultural equipment. Jewish charities had paid Israel to leave the greenhouses and equipment behind. Infrastructure investments in sewers and power supply were also left behind. Shortly after the PLA handover, the equipment was looted and the structures were vandalized. Again, not one word from the TVF crowd on that.

Fact: The Bedouins were able to live in peace with their Israeli neighbours and had rleatively good paying jobs in the agricultural sector. They could access medical care and social services. After the handover, there was a smal period of calm. And then Hamas came into power and the violence escalated. Suicide bombers and terrorists took advantage of the border crossings. Israel implemented restrictions. The end result was that thousands of Bedouins lost their income and suffered.

Fact: Hamas claims it is popularly elected and in charge of Gaza. If that is the case, then Hamas must take responsibility for the almost daily hostile attacks. Israel is not violating the Gaza border by launching attacks. All Hamas has to do is to suspend the terror attacks and ingress/ egress at the border can be improved. However, Hamas considers itself in a state of war with Israel. North Korea still has an ongoing state of war with South Korea. The border is closed. Lebanon is still in a state of war with Israel. Its border is also closed. Israel is the only country in the world where it faces another party that is at war with it and yet Israel still lets non military goods pass.

[chuckd]

So i guess my attitude is, given israel's history, and the mess they have created in the west bank for no good reason, which has come at the expense of Palestinian rights.. they should be willing to simply accept a permanent ceace-fire in exchange for a complete withdraw from the west bank.. rather than focusing on the ideological issue of weather 'israel has a right to exist'

Isn't this precisely what Neville Chamberlain did prior to WWII?