Sorting Out An Overstay: Overstay Case Study 1

[Badbanker]

Recently I seem to spend a lot of time helping people sort out their difficult overstay problems and at the suggestion of a couple of embassies, have decided to slowly write it up one at a time on Thai Visa to assist people in similar situations.

I was recently contacted and asked to assist a Western European national with a 7 month and 13 day overstay.

In the insuing period since his arrival the person had lost or misplaced his passport but had fortunately kept his TM arrival card in a separate place.  He did not, for various reasons have the money to get a new passport or clear the overstay at a border checkpoint and then get back into Thailand.  He also had personal health problems relating to his heart and had to be reassured on a number of occasions during this process that it was going to work out OK.

He was also paranoid after reading much misinformation some of which was on Thaivisa.com!

The day of getting the overstay problem sorted out we left the hotel at about 10 am but really should have left earlier at say 9am.  On arrival at Immigration Chaeng Wattana, we initially collected a form to transfer the stamp into the new passport.  After all the requisite photcopying and photos and form filling we collected a Que number and sat and waited for about 30 mins.  

We were called in and the officer on seeing the paperwork was very strident and asked why he had overstayed?  As she has seen my face on many occasions and I explained that he was not in a position to clear the overstay until now. She then launched into a tirade at me in Thai about this action being breaking the law and I am really tired of people flaunting Thai law for their own personal benefit.  She said soon we will put news laws in place that will reward long overstayers with black listing for a period of time.

She asked curtly if he had the 20,000 baht for the overstay and we did. Even though he was leaving the country at 9 pm that same evening she also wanted 1,900 baht for a 7 day visa extension.

Having the mangled TM card in his possesion was a boon as it had his original 14 day entry stamp on it. After checking on the computer she found his entry but he had been registered in the computer system for 30 days entry not 14 and this mistake had to be changed through the central computer system before we could proceed.  This took till about 1:30 pm.

The section of Immigration we went to has 2 online systems.  One is the Immigration Computer System and the Other is a Police System.  These systems allows them to check if there are any outstanding warrants for your arrest.  If a warrant is found you will be escorted from Immigration to the Police station from which the warrant was issued even if it is in Hat Yat or Chiang Mai

In the insuing period of time there was one very contentious case involving someone that it was alleged has sold their passport and was now returning a second or third time to get a stamp in their new passport in several months.  This caused all the officers and their bosses to freak out and it stopped all processing.  At about 2:30 with the entry stamp in the passport and the computer corrected we joined another Que to get the overstay and 7 day extension paid.

After about 30 mins the officer called me and the man and said we are too busy!  Here is your money  back!  Go to the airport and pay for things there.  She gave us back the money and newly stamped passport and we left.

So back to the hotel to settle the bill and into a taxi and go to the airport.  Get a boarding card and  go through immigration.  The immigration officer sees our mans new temporary passport and the stamps from Chaeng Wattana and then ushers him to "The Desk".

"The Desk" is a very busy place!  It can be clearly seen from outside of the immigration area as it is at the corner before you go to the security check.  It is common at times for as many as 6 people to be standing in line waiting to pay overstay charges.

Some very small and minor questions and pay the 20,000 baht and then go to the plane.  Easy process!   

  

Problem has been that rumors and surmisings on various forums have caused many people to be scared of clearing overstays for fear of getting locked up, if they present themselves at immigration with an overstay.

Most of the problems I have come up against in this process is a lack of understanding on both sides.  This is coupled with a communication/language barrier which can at times be an explosive mixture.

Never and I mean never getting indignant, loud, threatening or demanding!  It will not achieve anything.

If you have overstayed there is a law for this.  Fortunately this law is being interpreted very leniently at the moment.  My contacts are telling me it may not be for much longer!

Get your visa overstay sorted out soon people so you can live in peace.

BB

[Carib]

I have never read anything else on TV, than : Just get yourself a ticket, pay the fine at the airport and listen to the reprimand. Fly out and fly back in if you so desire .

Going to immigration elsewhere leads to nothing, but could lead to an arrest, just as when found out at a traffic check or when on your way to a landbordercrossing to sort things out.

`The` place to clear the overstay is the airport on your way out, and always has been.

Not overstaying is always best.

[LarrySilverstein]

There was such a bunch of bs posted about the "new overstay rules" on thaivisa it was incredible.

I recently cleared an 8 month overstay at the airport within 5 minutes. No questions asked.

The officer called the immigration lady, she took me to a desk before between customs and immigration, then filled out some papers, i signed it, paid 20,000 baht, she said can come back no problem.

Thats it.

Going to Chang Wattana or consulting with one of these "visa expert agencies" will just make it worse and cost more money.

Just clear up overstay at the airport and you will have the least stress and problems.

Edited December 16, 2010 by LarrySilverstein

[Thanyaburi Mac]

There was such a bunch of bs posted about the "new overstay rules" on thaivisa it was incredible.

I recently cleared an 8 month overstay at the airport within 5 minutes. No questions asked.

The officer called the immigration lady, she took me to a desk before between customs and immigration, then filled out some papers, i signed it, paid 20,000 baht, she said can come back no problem.

Thats it.

Going to Chang Wattana or consulting with one of these "visa expert agencies" will just make it worse and cost more money.

Just clear up overstay at the airport and you will have the least stress and problems.

Correct, some BS, some misinformation, that usually gets corrected pretty quickly, but overall, lots of good tips and info.

In this particular instance,the overstayer had a new passport, thus complicating his case somewhat. Don't think they do the "replacement" entry stamps service at the airport, so that need to be handled prior to going there.

Mac

[CharlieH]

The most obvious for this is DONT DO IT ! to start with, but if circumstances dictate an overstay then get it sorted quickly, but to me the most valuable point in the above article, not just for immigration but for Thailand generally is "Never and I mean never getting indignant, loud, threatening or demanding! It will not achieve anything."

Western attitudes of shouting,balling, aggression and demanding and even intimidation will only make things worse in Thailand, forget all that angst, just try to smile and go with it. Quiet respect and often silence works much better in the LOS. (IMHO).

Edited December 16, 2010 by CharlieH

[Badbanker]

Every day the embassies in Bangkok continue to receive a number of telephone calls from people that are still genuinely concerned that they are going to get the IDC because they have a large overstay.

Of course the embassy always tell the truth and say it is not a problem! As I do this for a job, the embassies want me to post some real case experiences to help alleviate the concerns many people still have.

The purpose of my post is to give real examples of people that are getting out of overstay issues and not getting put in the IDC. It is also to give more of a perspective to the overstay problem that exists in Thailand. There are by immigration estimates, more than 100,000 people at any one time overstayed! There are deliberate overstayers, overstayers by change of circumstance and permanent overstayers that I have had to burn or bury. I once saw someone get out of a 12 year overstay!

Many people have more complex overstays that will not allow you to go directly to airport and DO require a stop at immigration requesting a clearance from Chaeng Wattana before they leave the kingdom. Remember once you have a stamp transfered into your passport they can by law force you to pay the 20k and a 1,900 7 day extension on the spot if they wish. It is their discretion!

Criticise my intent if you wish. It is my desire is to see less overstay so when the crackdown comes people will be aware of the direction.

BB

Edited December 16, 2010 by Badbanker

[Scott]

Thanks. I have a friend who is on a rather long overstay. It started with a medical problem that caused him to lose a lot of money and his business. In the process his Work Permit expired and he ended up on an overstay. He's now working and has been paid, but has been scared witless of getting sent IDC. He will be most happy to know that he can get this sorted out. He was thinking he would have to work a while longer and 'escape' to Cambodia, without legally crossing--he has contacts that could assist him.

I'll tell him to read this thread and get himself a ticket out. I think he will quite relieved.

[Maestro]

It is my impression that also the Immigration Bureau would like to see less overstays and that it is precisely for this reason that they sent out signals about plans to get tougher, because if the number of overstays goes down significantly the pressure for them to crack down will ease off.

[Lite Beer]

Scott.

As well as being on overstay your friend is working illegally.

That is really not a good position to be in.

[Badbanker]

As I think many of us are aware there are a number of wanted people in Thailand that come here and then throw away the fake passport they came in on.   Thai Immigration and Interpol Bangkok are aware of more than 1,000 people that are fugitives from justice from other countries, living quietly in Thailand on overstay!

This means potentially everyone that is breaking the law by overstaying, may also be one of these people.  In the past 3 years I have seen nearly a dozen people that tried to quietly enter Thailand from a land border knowing there was a legal case against them but hoping they would not get caught.    On being caught they are escorted to the Police station where the case is held and then detained in prison.

At the moment in the IDC there are more that 20 people that are wanted by police in their home countries on criminal charges.  These people prefer to stay in the IDC rather than go home and be put in jail.

BB

[Badbanker]

Thanks. I have a friend who is on a rather long overstay. It started with a medical problem that caused him to lose a lot of money and his business. In the process his Work Permit expired and he ended up on an overstay. He's now working and has been paid, but has been scared witless of getting sent IDC. He will be most happy to know that he can get this sorted out. He was thinking he would have to work a while longer and 'escape' to Cambodia, without legally crossing--he has contacts that could assist him.

I'll tell him to read this thread and get himself a ticket out. I think he will quite relieved.

If he still has his original passport he should be OK. This escaping to Cambodia is dangerous and wrong and will come back and bite him at a later date.

There are people that also offer to arrange the overstay for you. You pay about 30-50k and your passport comes back with multiple illegal stamps into and out of Thailand during the overstay period.

THIS IS ILLEGAL AND DANGEROUS!!!

While in the past this was possible it was still illegal! Immigrations computers are now very good and it will surprise you the info and access they have to your name, birth date and passport number.

If you get caught the problem also does get a whole lot worse and gets very expensive and difficult to deal with and black listing also almost a certainty.

BB

Edited December 16, 2010 by Badbanker

[tombkk]

Thanks Badbanker, for the first case study. I will make sure that I catch the future ones too.

What you are saying about the Thai immi computer system is true too. I have seen all the details on an individual they had, not only the passport details but also the pictures taken of him at the various entry and exit times.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Thanks Badbanker, for the first case study. I will make sure that I catch the future ones too.

What you are saying about the Thai immi computer system is true too. I have seen all the details on an individual they had, not only the passport details but also the pictures taken of him at the various entry and exit times.

Re Immigration's computer, when I re-entered at Nong Khai on 9 December, the Immigration guy commented, "oh, you lost a passport, right?" My current passport was issued 17 May 2006 and my "lost passport" report was made to Suan Plu Immigration probably that same day.

Good records, they keep!

Mac

[BOS2BKK]

I think all these people casually talking about year long overstays should be scared witless. It is about time the Thais started cracking down. Sure there are special circumstances from time to time, like a person getting sick or whatnot, more often than not it is just some cheap charlie who doesn't want to spend the money on a visa run. It shows a complete lack of respect for their host nation, and the Thais have every right to be offended.

An "oops sorry" visa overstay is a few days. A year long or worse overstay makes you an illegal immigrant, particularly if your working. In most of our home countries were are infuriated by the rash of illegal immigration, but we do not pay that same respect to the Thais. I think the easiest solution for the Thai government is to lift the 20K Baht cap on the fine. If the fine continued to accumulate indefinitely then there would be no monetary incentive to a long overstay. If, upon departure the person could not pay the fine, then jail time is a warranted alternative.

I keep coming back to the thought that this is simply a case of western arrogance, and an utter disregard for the rule of law. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You embarrass yourself, and your home nation when you act like an ignorant disrespectful traveler.

[Badbanker]

Sadly there are many people that get into overstay and have absolutely no way of paying any money to get out of Thailand.   Letting the 20,000 baht continue to build will allow it in all practicality to never get paid!

Please remember that embassies will only get involved with your distress when you are admitted to hospital for major sickness or charged with a legal case and detained.

The Thai legal system has a fair and reasonable way of coping with these sort of no way out overstay situations!

You are detained and go to court where from my experience you are fined anywhere between 1,500 and 5,000 baht.  If you have the money available to pay the court fine and it is paid at court, you are then sent to the Immigration Detention Center (IDC).

If you don't have money to pay the court fine you will be sent to Pathumthani Jail to serve time from where your embassy will be informed.  Every day that you serve in jail deducts 200 baht off of your court imposed fine.  After you have served this court imposed fine you will be returned to the police station that initially detained you.   This police station will then take you the IDC.

The IDC will inform your embassy or friends of your presence in the IDC and await their coming to arrange for a one way ticket back to your country of origin.  If after 6 months detention in the IDC no one has arranged for your deportation there are catholic foundations and private donors that can and will arrange for your return ticket.

Overstay is illegal and yes you are breaking the law and yes we going to see a crackdown that is mooted for 2011!

BB

[renaissanc]

My son, who was born in Thailand, and is now studying at ABAC, accidentally overstayed about 40 days or so and got fined the maximum amount. He has a Thai ID, but he's in the computer system as British, and we can't get him out of the system so he be a Thai in Thailand. But he still has to report for the compulsory Thai army service.

[lopburi3]

All he needs to do is obtain a Thai passport and enter using that. A flight to KL and return would do it. He will then not have to abide by any immigration requirements or risk overstay.

[BOS2BKK]

Sadly there are many people that get into overstay and have absolutely no way of paying any money to get out of Thailand.   Letting the 20,000 baht continue to build will allow it in all practicality to never get paid!

Please remember that embassies will only get involved with your distress when you are admitted to hospital for major sickness or charged with a legal case and detained.

Sorry my friend but I think that is a poor excuse. If you are so broke that you can not afford to pay for your own inability to mark a calender you should not be on Holiday in the first place. If you read my post I offered a solution to that. If you show up and you can't pay the fine, you should be taken to jail.

You are letting these over stay people off the hook far too easily. In the vast majority of cases of people I have spoken with on over stays, they blatantly mocked the system. Pointing out that a visa run might cost 15 or 20 thousand Baht every few months, when an overstay only costs 20K no matter how long you stay. One man on another ThaiVisa string said he had a 1500 Day overstay!! He had the money to support himself in Thailand for nearly 5 years, then he had the money to obey the law. It is an insult to the host nation and should be punished accordingly.

[Badbanker]

Sorry my friend but I think that is a poor excuse.  If you are so broke that you can not afford to pay for your own inability to mark a calender you should not be on Holiday in the first place.  If you read my post I offered a solution to that.  If you show up and you can't pay the fine, you should be taken to jail.  

I agree with you that many of the people that have overstayed for long periods of time do it willfully!  This is very wrong.   It is however a Thai cultural thing and it is only in the past couple of years that Thais and Thai immigration have seen it as a social ill.

There will be Crackdown and it will hurt as people that are abusing the overstay and living with families.  They will be black listed for a period of time that will make them live away from their families.

BB

[witold]

I agree with you that many of the people that have overstayed for long periods of time do it willfully! This is very wrong. It is however a Thai cultural thing and it is only in the past couple of years that Thais and Thai immigration have seen it as a social ill.

Thai government decides what is a crime and how serious the crime and how it should be punished.

In the past, it is quite clear that overstays were not seen as a big deal and they were therefore not penalized harshly.

Considering that there is no way to legally stay in Thailand without 1) marrying a Thai, 2) 'studying', or 3) being old and qualifying for retirement visa, it is not surprising that people are exercising the overstay loophole to stay in Thailand and do it for considerably lower cost than paying all the money for visa runs. Considering the penalties, shortcomings, and the benefits, this was a very good option. No surprise that many people took this option.

Now, as Thailand enters the developed world, rules are slowly changing on everything and people will need to reconsider. Still, I doubt that any enforcement changes will be so immediate and swift that people will not have at least a week to buy a plane ticket to fly out and fly back in to resolve the issue under the current enforcement rules and penalties..

[lopburi3]

Employment for money is not a valid reason? Investment of 10 million baht? NGO volunteers? Having/supporting a Thai child?

Broken down in Police Order 777/2551 there are 31 categories eligible for legal extensions of stay in Thailand.

[Badbanker]

It has been only in the past 2 years that forged and altered passports have been made illegal in Thailand.

Many of the things that attract us to stay here in Thailand are because there are less restrictive rules than in our own home country! Because of this people are under the impression there are no rules or they can be bent or paid off in some way.

There ARE rules and many of the people I come in contact with unfortunately have found that out.

All this aside I regularly come across people that fit into a category of people that embassies say privately should never have been issued a passport and jokingly say it should have been tattooed on their foreheads at birth! This one of the major reasons for overstay!!!!!

BB

Edited December 20, 2010 by Badbanker

[mochafan]

It has been only in the past 2 years that forged and altered passports have been made illegal in Thailand.

Many of the things that attract us to stay here in Thailand are because there are less restrictive rules than in our own home country! Because of this people are under the impression there are no rules or they can be bent or paid off in some way.

There ARE rules and many of the people I come in contact with unfortunately have found that out.

All this aside I regularly come across people that fit into a category of people that embassies say privately should never have been issued a passport and jokingly say it should have been tattooed on their foreheads at birth! This one of the major reasons for overstay!!!!!

BB

Rules are broken all the time here...haven't you noiticed?...this is Thailand. who cares what country you're in...host country or homeland...it's just a place on this planet. And 'Do as the Romans do'.

Most overstayers aren't dangerous and are not hurting anyone in any way... And the ones who ARE dangerous and/or are hiding out to avoid arrest for a crime in their own country...well, they will get caught sooner or later.

How does an overstayer affect you?

JS

[Badbanker]

It has been only in the past 2 years that forged and altered passports have been made illegal in Thailand.

There ARE rules and many of the people I come in contact with unfortunately have found that out.

BB

Rules are broken all the time here...haven't you noiticed?...this is Thailand. who cares what country you're in...host country or homeland...it's just a place on this planet. And 'Do as the Romans do'.

Most overstayers aren't dangerous and are not hurting anyone in any way... And the ones who ARE dangerous and/or are hiding out to avoid arrest for a crime in their own country...well, they will get caught sooner or later.

How does an overstayer affect you?

JS

Sadly the many people that do overstay do so to the detriment of all other foreigners in Thailand. Immigration in Thailand are angry but lack the political will from above to do anything legislatively at the moment. Laws are laws and if you overstay in most other countries you will find that there is a penalty! Senior figures in Immigration are tipping there is going to be a cleanup of the immigration system that will separate many people from their families in Thailand.

I spend many days of my year sorting out people that have difficult overstay problems that should not have got into them.

If this was Rome and you overstayed what would happen to you?

BB

[old wanderer]

Well coming from a country that has an ongoing invasion from the south with 20 million illegals demanding rights, privileges, free education, citizenship for their offspring, free school, everything written in their own language, ....etc etc. I have to draw a pretty hard line in the sand on respecting another countries borders and laws.

20,000 baht, chump change, anybody that cannot afford to make a visa run, get a visa or renew his visa; does Thailand really need him?? What can he contribute?

Raise the overstay up to 100,000 baht, or no maximum. Have it graduated so 1-7 days, 500 baht/day. 1 week to 1 month 1000 baht per day, over 1 month, 2500 baht/day.

JMHO, but I see what people that have no respect for the laws or society they live in effects the quality of life of the citizens of the country.

[Badbanker]

JMHO, but I see what people that have no respect for the laws or society they live in effects the quality of life of the citizens of the country.

Just you wait till a 6 month overstay means at least a year blacklist and see how many people will overstay!

This is what is common in other foreign countries and what is being mooted to be happening in Thailand.

Just you wait till it happens and this forum is inundated with complaints about the unfair system!

You have been warned!

BB

Edited January 2, 2011 by Badbanker

[p_brownstone]

It has been only in the past 2 years that forged and altered passports have been made illegal in Thailand.

BB

Much as I respect your knowledge of Overstay situations I simply can not believe that is correct!!

Patrick

[lopburi3]

Believe it may well be true as have seen that used as an excuse for not taking action in the past press reports. As they are not Thai documents there were not laws specific I believe was the thinking.