Call For Probe Into Police Killing - Trouble In Ayutthaya

[webfact]

TROUBLE IN AYUTTHAYA

Call for probe into police killing

By THE NATION

Video spurs questions over why man was shot repeatedly

Human rights advocates called yesterday for a probe into the police's extrajudicial killing of the drug-dealer and highway-shooting suspect Charnchai "Joke Phaikhiew" Prasongsil on December 11.

The posting of a video of the shooting on YouTube has spurred questions about why police shot the suspect twice when the situation appeared already in control.

The Human Rights Lawyers Association, the Union of Civil Liberties (UCL), the Thai Coalition for the Protection of Human Rights Defenders, the Cross Cultural Foundation (CrCF) and the Human Rights and Development Foundation yesterday issued a statement about the incident.

The network also offered their condolences to the family of 12-year-old victim Bhokin "Thomy" Dephiu. The groups called for related agencies to assist the family and for an inquiry so that all culprits were punished.

They raised questions about the police "over-reaction, inhumane acts and law violation", citing a news report that Joke sustained four gunshots in the head and no other wounds on his body.

The activists asked why police shot Joke three more times when, as seen in the clip, he wouldn't be able to fight back. They urged that an autopsy be done and a probe opened into this "extrajudicial killing".

They cited Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's comment in Krungthep Turakij newspaper in March 2009 that violence, which appeared effective in the short term, would complicate issues in the long term. He said at that time that drug suppression must be done within the law and a human rights framework. The activists urged that charges be filed against the officer in this shooting.

They also urged society and the media to watch the work of the police and get rid of a bias that criminals' had no rights to protect and deserved violence.

Meanwhile, police began a probe into who publicised the video clip of police trying to arrest, then shooting Joke. So far police had identified the camera person as a civilian and said that the people heard shouting in the clip for police to shoot Joke again after he was down was not a policeman.

Meanwhile, a close aide of Joke, Apichat "Mhong" Wangprathum, 35, surrendered to Ayutthaya police yesterday and reportedly confessed to be involved in at least two highway shootings.

Police had been hunting for Mhong, who often drove an Isuzu pickup truck and other vehicles for Joke. Police had found the pickup earlier. It was said that Mhong knew a lot of Joke's secrets and could help locate other members of the drug gang. He was charged with attempted murders, carrying guns in public places without permission and shooting guns in public place without permission.

Mhong, who was detained for police interrogation, allegedly confessed to being involved in two highway shootings in September. He allegedly said they occurred because other vehicles had cut in front of Joke's car. Police plan to take him to court tomorrow to seek permission to detain him.

On September 24, Thanakan Sinkhom, 22, filed a complaint with police that he was driving on Phaholyothin Road in Ayutthaya when assailants on an Isuzu truck approached and opened fire. He was lucky not to be injured. The other incident took place on September 25, when a taxi carrying six passengers and driving along the Bang Pa-in elevated road was shot at by three or four gunmen in an Isuzu truck. A bullet injured one passenger in the wrist. Witnesses to the two cases identified Mhong as the driver of the Isuzu.

Ayutthaya police are continuing to hunt for other members of Joke's drug-dealing network and are considering getting arrest warrants for two or three people also allegedly involved in the Ayutthaya highway shootings.

Abhisit assigned Justice Minister Pirapan Salirathavibhaga to preside over Thomy's cremation yesterday at Wat Nong Muang in Lop Buri's Nong Muang district.

-- The Nation 2010-12-19

[asiawatcher]

The guy was a drug dealer, he was confronted, shot at police, they returned the favour. If after he was taken down they popped a few more in him to ensure he was dead, who cares? The police saved the horrendous costs of hospitalisation, wasted courts time and then having to house him for 20+ years and pay for him there. I don't agree with summary execution but when someone fires back at Police, they enter the land of no return.

[buba]

Drug dealers are murderes kill them all no questions asked.

[Scott]

Let's exercise care in our posts. Many drug dealers may be murderers, but it is up to the courts to decide the best punishment for them. In Thailand that includes the death penalty.

[jonclark]

Let's exercise care in our posts. Many drug dealers may be murderers, but it is up to the courts to decide the best punishment for them. In Thailand that includes the death penalty.

Well said, if the police are allowed to become judge, jury and executioner, none of use are safe. As i remember from a few years ago many so called drug dealers were shot and killed with impunity by the police without any real evidence other than hearsay and gossip.

At the end of the day the police need to uphold the law and the ideals of a society. If they fail in this action and we accept or condone that failure, then society and the law which underpins it will begin to fail.

[lungmi]

Let's exercise care in our posts. Many drug dealers may be murderers, but it is up to the courts to decide the best punishment for them. In Thailand that includes the death penalty.

The death penalty is one of the factors to create murders, international crimonologues state. It opens the way for Extrajudicial killing.

[newermonkey]

My own opinion is: If it can be proved that this "Joke" was actually a drug dealer then I think everyone should leave the police alone. "The more we can rid the world of real scum the better"

[whybother]

My own opinion is: If it can be proved that this "Joke" was actually a drug dealer then I think everyone should leave the police alone. "The more we can rid the world of real scum the better"

If it can be proved that he was shooting at police, I think it's irrelevant if he was a drug dealer.

[sirchai]

Drug dealers are murderes kill them all no questions asked.

What's the difference between animals and Humans? Let's hope you'll come into a situation where you'll have to do something illegal to survive and get busted. :jap:

[prefabs]

There is a suggestion that he ws killed to prevent him being arrested and opening a can of worms nobody wished to see

[newermonkey]

My own opinion is: If it can be proved that this "Joke" was actually a drug dealer then I think everyone should leave the police alone. "The more we can rid the world of real scum the better"

If it can be proved that he was shooting at police, I think it's irrelevant if he was a drug dealer.

No, I meant what I said if its proved without any doubt that someone is a confirmed drug dealer, let the police get really tough, including killing the bastards.

If "you" have had someone in your family fall victim to these peddlers of life destruction you will change your tune my friend.

And obviously if someone shoots at the police they must suffer the consequences and get fired back at.

[TAWP]

Link to the video on Youtube?

[ginjag]

There is a suggestion that he ws killed to prevent him being arrested and opening a can of worms nobody wished to see

I would hope that --brother-and friends of are not bumped off.. will be interesting to see who gets OFF-and who takes the can. Just hope someone squeals, and we get some big FISH......would be good to let this carry on in Thaivisa, rather than the subject be forgotten in a few days, like the rest of the BIG NEWS storys.

[TAWP]

Too late to edit my post...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcguy0aPWsA&feature=player_embedded#!

The suspect was apparently carrying a Glock with an extended magazine. Fail to see the point of the second round of shootings however by Mr. 'My Gun Keeps Jamming' (Looked like an 1911 or some gun of same frame-style).

[Arkady]

The guy was a drug dealer, he was confronted, shot at police, they returned the favour. If after he was taken down they popped a few more in him to ensure he was dead, who cares? The police saved the horrendous costs of hospitalisation, wasted courts time and then having to house him for 20+ years and pay for him there. I don't agree with summary execution but when someone fires back at Police, they enter the land of no return.

I watched the video clip on Youtube. It was rather depressing, so I only watched it once but my impressions were like this. The police seemed only to have called the bodysnatchers to attend their raid on the brothers' apartment. I don't think there was an ambulance in attendance. In the initial encounter with Joke which is off camera the sound of only one shot is recorded which seemed to have been successfully fired by police at Joke. This doesn't mean that an earlier fire fight had taken place with Joke firing at police but also doesn't confirm it. As the cameraman approaches Joke lying in the bushes, a voice is heard saying "It's finished", meaning that he was dead. Then another voice says, "He is still breathing" and the camera shows that this is a fact. Then a policeman pulls out his hand gun and another authoritative sounding voice says, "Stop filming". This instruction is ignored as the policeman pops three rounds into Joke's torso at a range of one metre.

If extrajudicial execution by police were legal, Joke was certainly more richly deserving of it than many other police victims. I personally have no grief for his death. On the other hand, extrajudicial execution is not legal and the video may well illustrate what is police standard operating procedure. As we know from Thaksin's notorious war on drugs, many of the victims of police extrajudicial executions were totally innocent, including the couple who won on the lottery but wanted to keep their win secret and the 9 year old boy, Nong Pluem. Joke looked as if he was already dying when he took the last three rounds. If he had survived the police would have had a cast iron case to get him the death penalty for murder and drug peddling. The cop who finished him off is apparently guilty of capital murder under the Thai Penal Code. The police seem disinclined to follow or enforce laws they dislike. Therefore they have set themselves above the law and innocent people have as much to fear from them as villains like Joke. In fact it seems likely that Joke's drug dealing operations were in partnership with senior police officers who might have found his survival embarrassing. If they were to follow the wisdom of some posters here, these senior policeman cum drug dealers would immediately pull out their guns and extrajudicially execute themselves. But that is not going happen and the rotten police will continue to commit murder and other capital crimes with impunity.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Arkady

[housepainter]

You can't accept a lawless Police acting with impunity deciding whom it executes, where, when and how.

That is not leagl. It is not civilised. It is not acceptable and it negates all power of the state.

The whole point in law and order is having a judicial process applied to all, that works.

It's barbaric what has happened and is deeply frightening for us all. It impacts on our own personal freedoms. Now we can be subject to the same mindless treatment as it is condoned and therefore deemed to be sanctioned.

There are the innocent being executed in this way. By standers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you encourage a climate of shoot em up then you abandon all judicial process.You revert to a medieval state where violent powerful groups simply commit wonton murder.

To say that you wish to do away with the law and replace it with warfare is madness.

A rational, reasoned view is to have calm heads examine evidence and independent judges guide procedings and a jury deliver a verdict. I do not believe that one person on here can seriously suggest abandoning a system the Magna Carta gave us over a thousand years ago. A system that works and has been adapted by every civilised country in the world.

Where it hasn't there is chaos, failed states , terroism and anarchy. Is that really what some on here are advocating? Especially, Americans already fighting a war on terror and wishing to start another everywhere they go.

Furthermore, I can not comprehend the Americans on here who advocate murder. They have a legal system that takes a life for a life and yet they seem to be screaming for death in the streets. Incredible. As if there weren't already enough blood spilt in the name of justice.

Legal process. An acountable Police force.

These young men were not terroists. They were not having explosives strapped to their bodies. They were not about to blow up the Skytrain at 5 pm. One was at home armed and dangerous at the very most. Yet we see Police making arrests like this the world over. The other was wounded yet alive. He then is shot 3 times from a one metre distance with instructions seconds before to stop filming.

That is murder. Give the Thais some credit for a semblance of decency and call them to book for it. Do not condone the actions of callous murderers wearing Police Uniforms. It degrades them. it degrades all of us.

They were low level drug dealers that the police knew about; were accepting bribes from; and were in danger of being exposed by. Their antics firing upon other car users simply illustrates the failur of the Police to stop that crime.

Wasn't the random shooting of passing cars enough to get the Police to actually respond? It seems not. We're not safe from that, as we could have been drive by victims. And yet those self same cops who failed us once you are now accliaming as heros. They only acted when they realised a can of worms had opened up.

That is what this is about. That is why those who shot them dead should be arrested as they are covering up their own connection to the drug dealings.

Can't you grasp that?

It's the very reason people are presumed innocent.Taken in to custody. Tried and prosecuted or acquited according to the evidence. Not according to an implicated cop at the roadside.

Not according to gun law by criminal Police involved in crime.

Not according to any sense of natural justice.

This is a total abomination and if there is any strength at all in the Abhisit Government it must rid us of this Police Force from top to bottom.

Edited December 19, 2010 by housepainter

[Credo]

My own opinion is: If it can be proved that this "Joke" was actually a drug dealer then I think everyone should leave the police alone. "The more we can rid the world of real scum the better"

It's a little hard to 'prove' this, because the person is dead. It's hard for a dead person to defend himself.

Whether or not the killing was justified due to the gun fight, I don't know, but these things need to be investigated and wrongdoers, if there are any, held accountable.

[TAWP]

No matter if he was dying or not, the last series of shots was not necessary and clearly against the law...

[Siripon]

There is a suggestion that he ws killed to prevent him being arrested and opening a can of worms nobody wished to see

Yes,some journalists say, Ayuthaya, a red shirt hotbed, has been an area with large exchanges of cash over the last few years,and some police, red shirt supporters, have been involved in that. Hence the attempt to discredit the Police Commander of the area , Khun Asawin, appointed by Apisit, in the clip on Youtube with the killing of Joke, an'extra judicial' killing, the poor boy!

However the local police may well have wanted Joke dead too, has mentioned in the post above.

[jayjay0]

Let's exercise care in our posts. Many drug dealers may be murderers, but it is up to the courts to decide the best punishment for them. In Thailand that includes the death penalty.

You are absolutely correct. it is the courts and judges and who ever pays them the most money job to make that decision

It is the police duty to protect the people. If the shooting of a known drug dealer who is shooting at them is required then it is there duty to shoot at him.

Ask yourself if you were in a shoot out with the man would you be careful where you aim so he dosen't die. Or would you be shooting to stop him any way you can.

People tend to forget the police are getting shot at. They don't have any idea of what that is like so they condemn it.

Why is it the so called "Human rights advocates" are always worried about the rights of people who are selling drugs to kids killing other people and any thing else detrimental to society.

When are they going to come out for the rights of a child to grow up with out drugs all around him a child's rite to grow up.

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human right advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

[jayjay0]

Sorry about the last post it should have read

You are absolutely correct. it is the courts and judges and who ever pays them the most money job to make that decision

It is the police duty to protect the people. If the shooting of a known drug dealer who is shooting at them is required then it is there duty to shoot at him. And if in the process he dies so be it.

The last round of shots was defiantly was out of line.It was not needed. That does not mean it was not understandable.

Several scenes are possible

1 cover up police illegal activity

2 got carried away in the happenings. Kinda nerve jangling when some one is trying to kill you

3 sick and tired of seeing drug dealers geting a slap on the wrist all because they have money or some Human rights activist will be there to make sure he gets all the comforts of home. Remember folks we just sit around typing are opinions we really don't know what it is like to deal with the result of these criminals actions.. A few of us do but most of us are clueless so we theorize.

Why is it the so called "Human rights advocates" are always worried about the rights of people who are selling drugs to kids killing other people and any thing else detrimental to society.

When are they going to come out for the rights of a child to grow up with out drugs all around him a child's rite to grow up. When are they going to stop putting the rights of the one in front of the rights of the many. Particularly if the one is a rapist killer thief or any other form of leach on society. Don't even waste your time asking how would I like it if I was one of those people being treated badly. I wouldn't but my likes or dislikes do not make it rite. The people should come first.

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human rights advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

To late to edit it.

[Arkady]

Sorry about the last post it should have read

You are absolutely correct. it is the courts and judges and who ever pays them the most money job to make that decision

It is the police duty to protect the people. If the shooting of a known drug dealer who is shooting at them is required then it is there duty to shoot at him. And if in the process he dies so be it.

The last round of shots was defiantly was out of line.It was not needed. That does not mean it was not understandable.

Several scenes are possible

1 cover up police illegal activity

2 got carried away in the happenings. Kinda nerve jangling when some one is trying to kill you

3 sick and tired of seeing drug dealers geting a slap on the wrist all because they have money or some Human rights activist will be there to make sure he gets all the comforts of home. Remember folks we just sit around typing are opinions we really don't know what it is like to deal with the result of these criminals actions.. A few of us do but most of us are clueless so we theorize.

Why is it the so called "Human rights advocates" are always worried about the rights of people who are selling drugs to kids killing other people and any thing else detrimental to society.

When are they going to come out for the rights of a child to grow up with out drugs all around him a child's rite to grow up. When are they going to stop putting the rights of the one in front of the rights of the many. Particularly if the one is a rapist killer thief or any other form of leach on society. Don't even waste your time asking how would I like it if I was one of those people being treated badly. I wouldn't but my likes or dislikes do not make it rite. The people should come first.

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human rights advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

To late to edit it.

The point is that, if you want to protect human rights at all, you have to protect the human rights of everyone. Otherwise, police can just go out and execute anyone they don't like, including drug dealers and other criminals who are paying off rival police mafia gangs but not theirs. Those who were here during Thaksin's war on drugs should be able to remember what that looks like with bags of speed pills and rusty old .38s theatrically planted at odd angles next to freshly executed corpses. He extended the principle to allowing the military to extrajudicially execute unarmed Muslim protesters at Tak Bai by suffocation with impunity and the impunity has been extended by all four governments since then. The establishment views Muslim protestors in the same light as drug dealers and alleged drug dealers. Do you also agree with extrajudicial executions and disappearances for these Thai citizens?

Re nerve jangling being shot at. Although it is certainly possible and the gun in his case, at least, was unlikely to have been planted, we only have the police's word for it that he managed to get any shots off at them at all. In any case, it is incumbent on the police to provide their officers weapons training for stressful situations and training on legitimate use of force. If you watch the video and can understand Thai it is clear that a senior policeman was there directing the operation. I think it is the voice of the same one who appeared in another clip of a press conference afterwards.

I reiterate that I have no sympathy for Joke and his type who deserve the highest penalty of the law. But please remember that the reason he was able to deal drugs successfully for many years and shoot loads of cars on the Asian Highway is purely and simply because the very police officers that you now want to grant a licence to kill were fully involved in his drug dealing activities. Are these police really sick and tired of seeing this activity which pays for their cars, mansions and overseas educations for their kids? They assume that other people's kids will be the victims of drug peddlers not theirs. So they don't care. Even other police who were obviously not involved in Joke's syndicate have said he was operating under the noses of police for years.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Arkady

[animatic]

Not supporting summary execution for sure, but once you have shot at police officers ANYWHERE, you chances of survival diminish significantly. Add this the the belief that this guy randomly shoots innocent children simply because of disrespectful driving, and they would have every reason to believe he would if he could take one more last revenge shot at them as he died. Ultimately he brought this on himself, and his brother has admitted they were the shooters of the 12 year old. I am pretty sure this was clear to police as they came for him, he no doubt was well known to them.

Edited December 20, 2010 by animatic

[TAWP]

Again, even if he was dead and the bullets wouldn't have hit him the additional firearms discharge by the officer (with a poorly maintained gun) would still be against the law.

So while this might not be an extrajudicial killing (there was most likely no order to hunt him down and kill him) the share incompetence and lack of attempt to hold police officers to any international standard here is of a serious concern.

[jayjay0]

Sorry about the last post it should have read

You are absolutely correct. it is the courts and judges and who ever pays them the most money job to make that decision

It is the police duty to protect the people. If the shooting of a known drug dealer who is shooting at them is required then it is there duty to shoot at him. And if in the process he dies so be it.

The last round of shots was defiantly was out of line.It was not needed. That does not mean it was not understandable.

Several scenes are possible

1 cover up police illegal activity

2 got carried away in the happenings. Kinda nerve jangling when some one is trying to kill you

3 sick and tired of seeing drug dealers geting a slap on the wrist all because they have money or some Human rights activist will be there to make sure he gets all the comforts of home. Remember folks we just sit around typing are opinions we really don't know what it is like to deal with the result of these criminals actions.. A few of us do but most of us are clueless so we theorize.

Why is it the so called "Human rights advocates" are always worried about the rights of people who are selling drugs to kids killing other people and any thing else detrimental to society.

When are they going to come out for the rights of a child to grow up with out drugs all around him a child's rite to grow up. When are they going to stop putting the rights of the one in front of the rights of the many. Particularly if the one is a rapist killer thief or any other form of leach on society. Don't even waste your time asking how would I like it if I was one of those people being treated badly. I wouldn't but my likes or dislikes do not make it rite. The people should come first.

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human rights advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

To late to edit it.

The point is that, if you want to protect human rights at all, you have to protect the human rights of everyone. Otherwise, police can just go out and execute anyone they don't like, including drug dealers and other criminals who are paying off rival police mafia gangs but not theirs. Those who were here during Thaksin's war on drugs should be able to remember what that looks like with bags of speed pills and rusty old .38s theatrically planted at odd angles next to freshly executed corpses. He extended the principle to allowing the military to extrajudicially execute unarmed Muslim protesters at Tak Bai by suffocation with impunity and the impunity has been extended by all four governments since then. The establishment views Muslim protestors in the same light as drug dealers and alleged drug dealers. Do you also agree with extrajudicial executions and disappearances for these Thai citizens?

Re nerve jangling being shot at. Although it is certainly possible and the gun in his case, at least, was unlikely to have been planted, we only have the police's word for it that he managed to get any shots off at them at all. In any case, it is incumbent on the police to provide their officers weapons training for stressful situations and training on legitimate use of force. If you watch the video and can understand Thai it is clear that a senior policeman was there directing the operation. I think it is the voice of the same one who appeared in another clip of a press conference afterwards.

I reiterate that I have no sympathy for Joke and his type who deserve the highest penalty of the law. But please remember that the reason he was able to deal drugs successfully for many years and shoot loads of cars on the Asian Highway is purely and simply because the very police officers that you now want to grant a licence to kill were fully involved in his drug dealing activities. Are these police really sick and tired of seeing this activity which pays for their cars, mansions and overseas educations for their kids? They assume that other people's kids will be the victims of drug peddlers not theirs. So they don't care. Even other police who were obviously not involved in Joke's syndicate have said he was operating under the noses of police for years.

You miss the point completely did you not read my article. My big question is why do these human right activists only apply that to criminals. Where were these so called do gooders when the people the red shirts deprived of a means to make a living needed help. We know where they were when the red shirts who caused all the misery were put in Jail. They were Johnny on the spot what can I do for you?

As for nerve jangling just a posability same as police cover up just a possibility I am sure there other probabilities but as you suggest on nerve jangling highly unlikely.. Sorry I missed the part where I said I want to give them a license to kill. Please read all the post before you reply The closest I came to saying it was OK was when I said the last round of shots was way out of line. How you managed to convert that into give the police a license to kill I will never know.

Now if you had said sometimes I would like to I would have said you are a mind reader.How did you know.

Edited December 20, 2010 by jayjay0

[Pi Sek]

...

The last round of shots was defiantly was out of line. It was not needed. That does not mean it was not understandable. Several scenes are possible

1. cover up police illegal activity

2. got carried away in the happenings. Kinda nerve jangling when some one is trying to kill you

3. sick and tired of seeing drug dealers geting a slap on the wrist all because they have money or some Human rights activist will be there to make sure he gets all the comforts of home.

1. Agree, definitely out of line - and, if this was the case, the policeman should be done for a number of federal charges including obstruction of justice, withholding information and, of course, the criminal charge of murder. But he probably won't get any of those, by the rule of Law, because Thai Law treats a policeman's court testimony as gospel. "Your honour, he was reaching for his gun."

2. That's what NSB cops are supposedly trained for! Yes, nerve-jangling, but 3 shots at a near-dead/dying person, with a gun on the ground next to him? A minute after firing had ceased? Why not just kick the gun away and handcuff him?

3. That just doesn't happen unless the cops are backing the dealer in the first place... in which case how can the cop be "sick and tired"?

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human rights advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

To late to edit it.

Fair enough, but I disagree. Whilst I understand that extreme human rights advocates seem to respect the offender more than the victim, I also think that without human rights advocates we would have instances of real scum - you know, like Thaksin, Hitler, or Charles Taylor - going unquestioned.

[jayjay0]

...

The last round of shots was defiantly was out of line. It was not needed. That does not mean it was not understandable. Several scenes are possible

1. cover up police illegal activity

2. got carried away in the happenings. Kinda nerve jangling when some one is trying to kill you

3. sick and tired of seeing drug dealers geting a slap on the wrist all because they have money or some Human rights activist will be there to make sure he gets all the comforts of home.

1. Agree, definitely out of line - and, if this was the case, the policeman should be done for a number of federal charges including obstruction of justice, withholding information and, of course, the criminal charge of murder. But he probably won't get any of those, by the rule of Law, because Thai Law treats a policeman's court testimony as gospel. "Your honour, he was reaching for his gun."

2. That's what NSB cops are supposedly trained for! Yes, nerve-jangling, but 3 shots at a near-dead/dying person, with a gun on the ground next to him? A minute after firing had ceased? Why not just kick the gun away and handcuff him?

3. That just doesn't happen unless the cops are backing the dealer in the first place... in which case how can the cop be "sick and tired"?

in short in my opinion and you can flame away a Human rights advocates is a long term for scum.:jap:

To late to edit it.

Fair enough, but I disagree. Whilst I understand that extreme human rights advocates seem to respect the offender more than the victim, I also think that without human rights advocates we would have instances of real scum - you know, like Thaksin, Hitler, or Charles Taylor - going unquestioned.

Your point is taken and to a degree I have to agree but I really don't think you are rite. After all we have had them for a long time I can not say about Hitler's time but we have for sure had them in Thaksin and Charles Taylor's time. They stopped nothing.

In a reverse logic they are advocating violence they will protect you not your victims.

Ask your self if they really believe in what they are doing are they helping Charles Taylor? We know for a fact by there vary nature they are not helping his victims. As for Thaksin are they going to be there to aid him if by some chance he winds up back in Thailand.

Yes the police man who did the shooting should be charged are the human right activists going to be there for him. If he gets jail time there will be a lot of people they have to convince of his rights.

In closing I agree they can and on occasion do have a place. My whole point is to try and show the false face part of them. It is a lonely battle and I will never win. But I feel OK with it.

To get back to the video. What were they thinking of to even let it be taken and then released. Kinda speaks to the way things are accepted and not questioned. We must always remember that might not be there attidude with a respectavble citizen. I know I would have two different attitudes. There I go again giving a posability of another line of reasoning. I think I will stop and just claim they are facts stick my head where it is dark and write a monolouge based on that fact true or not dosen't matter.