Bangkok Tollway Tragedy: What Went Wrong?

[whybother]

Geezer, do you flip you lights every time you pass a car on the expressway? Do you think people should? Do you really think the law says that you should?

Absolutely not, I would flash my lights if I had reason to think I had not been seen. I would expect overtaking vehicles to do the same for me, but of course I don't believe everyone should every time they plan to overtake.

I do believe it is in the handbook for drivers and is a practical application of the law because I have read it the book, a knowledge of which is necessary for a holder of a Thai driving licence. The flashing of lights is not the issue, clearly the spirit is to make sure that the vehicle in front knows that you are coming so that you can overtake safely. Not crashing into other cars is more likely the law, these actions are more recommendations to accomplich that object.

I really don't know what force these measures have; but I imagine the handbook is probably used to establish correct procedure, in the event of an incident the fact of them being ignored will not help your case. If there is no incident, then whether correct procedure was followed is not an issue which is where I think everybody is coming from.

Pass ... in a separate lane ... without needing to change lanes.

I don't believe the handbook says "flash headlights" when overtaking or passing. I think it would say "flash indicators" (indicators - the (usually) orange lights on each corner of the car, and now sometimes on the side or on the mirror) when turning or changing lanes, but not when passing without changing lanes.

The use of "flashing headlights" in Thailand to say "get out of the @$ing way" or "don't get in the @$ing way".

[ginjag]

I think I understand so much more now, about everything. But to confirm, can Thais or anyone with an in-depth knowledge of Thai family culture please let me know the answer to this question (or their opinion):

At what age does Thai culture generally believe marks the turning point from childhood to adulthood?

13 plus, when they get into smoking and drinking, seems about the norm, I live in the middle of it all, rural village, 31 years, believe me, this is well after they drive m/cycles-and farm tuk tuks,,4 wheelers. I have a shop. this is sure.

Edited January 6, 2011 by ginjag

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Thanks for replies on the Thai perceptions on "coming of age".

What is more important to note here is that Thais, unlike westerners, really try to avoid accidents.

Why did the girl get a motorcycle to drive at the age of 12? Because her parents don't want her to go in the village school any longer because the education there far from what she will get in amphur muang. It is an opportunity for her parents to have the possibility to now send her to a better school and that will benefit their daughter for the rest of her life. But the girl has to drive herself because her parents are working and can't send her and they couldn't afford the petrol to go back and forth even if they did have the time anyway

Now you understand why they bought a motorcycle for their 12 year old daughter

The website on facebok is up to nearly 300,000 "likes" now, we are going to see a harder response in this case than Thailand has ever seen

Are you claiming Thai 12 year old girls on 2 wheelers are really conscious about the dangers of road riding / driving / their visibility etc? Where are these adults in children's bodies? That has to be one of the most whoa! claims I've heard yet.

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Why don't the parents move to where the better school is? What's keeping them so far from her school, their daughter has to dodge traffic for 30 km a day on her motorbike at 12 yrs old? What is the breakdown between parents of teenage daughters who:

a) are interested in benefiting the rest of her life?

b ) are interested in her benefiting the rest of their lives?

I got an estimated 1,000,000 sets of parents for b ) - can you call or raise on a)?

Sorry, I don't really understand the buying for the motorbike for 12 yr olds just yet...

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I'm seeing no outcry from the 300,000. When will it kick off at the news of today's actual outrage?

A difficult question since there does not appear to a defining cultural ceremony, such as the Bar Mitzvah that the Jewish have at 12/13

One might use the marriage laws:

Thailand: 20, 17 with parental consent

The problem with using cultural/historic details is that, in modern society, we live a lot longer and put far more value on childhood and education than has happenned in olden days. Maybe this is part of the problem here in that where most of the 'western world' has moved on and increased the age of adult responsibility it has not been fully recognised culturally by all which is reflected in some of the odd age laws for marriage and sexual consent along with others that we see for some countries.

The Bar Mitzvah is pure tradition. I have a number of Jewish friends. There is no 12 and 13 yr old marriages and whatnot going on. Their children are children, the Bar Mitzvah is a party.

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Marriage / sexual consent minimums are a very solid guide, I agree.

So Thais feel their children don't have the maturity to safely sign a contract of marriage (which can be annulled / reversed without much harm) until they're 20 years old...but a 17 year old and now I hear 12 year olds are expected to have the maturity to understand all the realities of high speed driving and - sigh - motorbike riding in traffic?

There is a problem here and I don't think it has as much to do with culture as it has to do with <deleted> THAILAND? Where is the logic in thinking the above?

To answer from a Thai family culture perspective is very difficult. Things often happen because of necessity, it is not that the parents of the 12 year old motorcycle driver consider her an adult now, the same with the 15 year old driver. At the same time, the parents to the same poor girl may say that - You are 15 now and you have to start to work full time - but it's not because they consider her an adult. Welcome to the world filled with hard necessities,

Yeah, I've had first-hand glimpses of what the parents of a Bangkok teenage sex worker believe are 'necessities'. What would you define as necessitating your teenage daughter being ordered to Bangkok's sex industry to earn and return? So that you wouldn't be without those necessities.

I'm unable to come up with anything. I'm serious. I'm drawing blanks. There is no single 'necessity' that I could think of that would justify my sending my daughter into Bangkok's sex industry in order to earn and remit those earnings to me.

You don't want my listing the 'necessities' as defined by the parents of the girl in the example I saw. Which I'm told was generically standard stuff for the families of these girls. My blood is boiling. I'm not able to work out why no one else's is, just yet...but I'll keep working on it.

13 plus, when they get into smoking and drinking, seems about the norm, I live in the middle of it all, rural village, 31 years, believe me, this is well after they drive m/cycles-and farm tuk tuks,,4 wheelers. I have a shop. this is sure.

13+ for what? marriage? consensual sex? workforce? having their own children?

I think there are a hell of a lot of convenient contradictions in Thai society and culture. And I'm hecka not talking about the double standards of the elite when I get angry about contradictions. There are far more - pressing - contradictions I would like someone to explain to me first...

Edited January 6, 2011 by TheyCallmeScooter

[MikeyIdea]

Scooter, the post is too long to edit so I don't click reply

Are you claiming Thai 12 year old girls on 2 wheelers are really conscious about the dangers of road riding / driving / their visibility etc? Where are these adults in children's bodies? That has to be one of the most whoa! claims I've heard yet.

No, I am absolutely not claiming that 12 year olds should drive, they are absolutely not ready for it. What I am giving you is just the Thai reasoning behind letting the kid drive in the case I describe to you. Please understand that the intent is never bad

You have very little understanding about how Thais think and reason, you have little understanding of the meaning of the word necessity too. How can you suggest that the parents move? They work on their small farm and the farm is close to their village, that's why they live in the village... They can't move close to the school because they need to be close to their farm.

Yeah, I've had first-hand glimpses of what the parents of a Bangkok teenage sex worker believe are 'necessities'. What would you define as necessitating your teenage daughter being ordered to Bangkok's sex industry to earn and return? So that you wouldn't be without those necessities.

There are very few Thai teenagers working with westerners that are ordered there. I doubt you have met one. Nearly all Thai girls working in bars do have a choice to work somewhere else if they want, they choose not to because nightlife pays better and is more fun. Most have children to take care of, half of them also requested to get sterilised after their last child, that's their choice, all is about choice. All Thais are taught that they should help to provide for their family, that is one part of Asian culture that westerners do not have, I like it, another word for it is respect, yet another word is necessity. Most Thais are thereby to some extent pressurised to help providing for their family. Most families will respect their childrens choice how to do it. Men are often not as good as women at doing it incidentally. There are bad people everywhere, there are bad parents everywhere, it is more common that poor parents from the north-east and the north become bad and want their children to send more and more money home than other regions. What you fail to understand is the power of role modelling. If the parents are like that (or become like that when they see how easy it seemingly is to get money), then it's fairly likely that the children also have similar values... It's still a choice, few parents would actually order this to happen, few families would not accept and respect their childrens choice

Your division into 2 categories and a million people in B is simply because you don't understand Thai culture at all, but you are learning

So Thais feel their children don't have the maturity to safely sign a contract of marriage (which can be annulled / reversed without much harm) until they're 20 years old...but a 17 year old and now I hear 12 year olds are expected to have the maturity to understand all the realities of high speed driving and - sigh - motorbike riding in traffic?

There is a problem here and I don't think it has as much to do with culture as it has to do with <deleted> THAILAND? Where is the logic in thinking the above?

So the what? The Thais don't think the way you write, it is you who think they think they way you write...

The law says 20, Thais don't value the law or the actual marriage contract, they value the cermony. Nearly all Thai families want their children to wait and not marry early. Thai families do not expect 12 year olds to have the maturity to understand all the realities of high speed driving and driving in traffic. They tell their children to drive slowly and stay out of traffic... It's just that it doesn't always happen of course. And they often concentrate on telling them what not to do but forget to emphasise what they should do, that is often the Thai learining style...

Yyou don't understand at all yet, but you are learning well Where is the logic? Instead ask Why did I assume what I assumed?

13+ could be the age for when poor and uneducated let their children go in many ways, sort of. Parents who don't don't want to know of the importance of... and wouldn't care if they were told either... because they don't understand the importance of... paying an active role in the upbringing of their children. Role modelling? Laziness, convenience? Yepp, also important factors. And the result of all this is that the middle class is running away from the working class, much more important problem for Thailand than corruption. Your comment on contradictions is very good.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Please understand that the intent is never bad

The intent of those who facilitate evil is very rarely ever 'bad'. Most of the x,000,000,000 children throughout history who have suffered unspeakable horrors and/or died as a result of their parents' incompetence and ignorance were not hated by their parents. On the contrary, the vast majority were loved by the parents who were effectively torturing them (due to not being able to care for or protect them).

Their love just makes the torturous lives of their children more painful and confused.

You have very little understanding about how Thais think and reason, you have little understanding of the meaning of the word necessity too. How can you suggest that the parents move? They work on their small farm and the farm is close to their village, that's why they live in the village... They can't move close to the school because they need to be close to their farm.

There are different kinds of cultural sensitivity. I have little 'understanding' about how Thais think and reason because their thinking is so often simply illogical and there rarely much reason involved (outside of the all-powerful, very human trait of self-interest). Don't for one second believe that I would endeavour to 'understand' how the parents of a 13 yr old girl sent to Bangkok can continually pile pressure on her to deliver ongoing bacon...so that I can understand them. I have no desire to 'understand' humans that are capable of rationalising evil which suits their own purposes; I'm quite aware of how and why they able to.

When I point out the insane contradictions in their convenient 'thinking', it is for the purpose of exposing those contradictions so that the horror that results from such convenient rationalisation can be highlighted, and hopefully questioned by those who have fallen victim to accepting evil as "simply the way it is".

What does it matter if Josef Fritzl truly adored his daughter? (and you can bet your ass he loved her in his own, twisted way more than 99.99% of fathers in the world love their daughters) Who cares about his 'thinking' and his 'reasoning'.

There are very few Thai teenagers working with westerners that are ordered there. I doubt you have met one. Nearly all Thai girls working in bars do have a choice to work somewhere else if they want, they choose not to because nightlife pays better and is more fun. Most have children to take care of, half of them also requested to get sterilised after their last child, that's their choice, all is about choice. All Thais are taught that they should help to provide for their family, that is one part of Asian culture that westerners do not have, I like it, another word for it is respect, yet another word is necessity. Most Thais are thereby to some extent pressurised to help providing for their family. Most families will respect their childrens choice how to do it.

oh my...

1. When 13-16 year old girls in Sydney, New York, London, Paris, Berlin, etc suddenly get the urge to leave school, race off to the nearest capital city in order to sell their bodies for sex to those who are in the market for such a thing...your amazing first sentence will have validity. Until then, you must accept that there are ways to influence the actions of your children without expressly ordering them.

2. It is very convenient to point out how much 'fun' the victims of Thailand's family-pressurised teenage sex trades have. It's incredibly convenient. That is one of the very convenient ways of thinking I'm talking about, a line of thought which - when you shine the light of cold logic / reason onto it - is exposed for it's horrific, albeit very convenient, nature. Isn't it wonderful how our teenage prostitutes (who send us huge portions or even the majority of their reimbursement) have so much awesome fun doing what they do! They love it! It would almost be unfair of us not to send their sisters to join in the fun!

3. How convenient it is that the life of prostitution is such a vicious cycle! Yes, many of them have children as a result of...? Being uneducated teenage girls thrown into the horrific pit of exploitation? Oh, yes. It's a real unexpected surprise that they're going to have 'unplanned' pregnancies. With abortion as illegal as their professions, a lot will choose to have the children. After all, you point out it's all about choice, right? Choices everywhere, choices galore! They have a dizzying list of choices in the STDs they are exposed to daily! They have a dizzying array of choices when it comes to the perverted and abusive johns who flood into Bangkok! They can sleep with 1 or sleep with 20 a night, their choice! They have the choice of becoming addicted to drugs at a young age! And serious choice when it comes to available drugs! Choices for where they work, choices for clothes, choices for friends, choices galore! And if they didn't want to do it, why wouldn't they just stop?

An emotionally-battered, uneducated single mother, health racked by STDs and addictions of many kinds (not just to drugs, there are all kinds of addictions endured by these poor girls - even really sick and twisted stuff like the addiction "to the hunt" or the obsessive need to be continually emotionally "validated" by prospective / pleased johns)...saddled with the unfathomable pressure exerted by an extended family who have all become rather accustomed to the gravy-train this girl has been delivering for years...yeah man, sounds like her biggest problem is having too many OPTIONS to CHOOSE from!

It's this kind of convenient thinking that makes me sick.

4. It's very twisted, the Biblical and Asian cultural peculiarity which brainwashes children into thinking it is their responsibility to provide for their parents, rather than the other way around. It's another very convenient way of thinking that doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. Sure, the 'necessity' is there, or...is it? Think about it. Why should children need to provide for their parents and older relatives? Is it because their parents and older relatives are unable to provide for themselves? Not always. Sometimes, more often than not, you would need to substitute unwilling for unable.

Yes, I'm quite sure that their parents respect their choices on how their children provide for them. The sick and twisted thing is that they don't question why their children are expected to provide for them at all.

"What you fail to understand is the power of role modelling. If the parents are like that (or become like that when they see how easy it seemingly is to get money), then it's fairly likely that the children also have similar values."

Ah, no. I perfectly understand the nature of cycles of abuse and poverty and vice and backwards cultural practices that result in child abuse, en masse. Where we do not understand each other I suspect, is that I am telling you it's infuriating and unacceptable and messed up that these parents blindly follow in the cyclical abuse of their children because that was what their parents did to them. It seems you believe the parents should be allowed to abuse their children, because it happened to them?

Who do you think is...right, on this issue?

Don't mistake my refusal to validate evil for mere 'misunderstanding' of how evil 'thinks'. I know how evil thinks, better than most. Evil avoids any thinking which might throw into question it's perpetuation / existence.

Invariably, the result is a whole myriad of contradictions which are horrifically convenient.

Where is the logic? Instead ask Why did I assume what I assumed?

Ah, but no Sir. I ask again, where is the logic?

Logic is the enemy of evil. Logic is the enemy of culture. Logic is the enemy of progress.

It is not cute or idiosyncratic or quaint when cultural values lack any form of logic. You can bet your ass whenever you find a cultural norm in any society that is lacking in logic, there is evil being ignored or rationalised away by a group of people or an entire society that is in denial.

A very convenient denial.

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Thanks for your detailed and insightful response. I'm not ragging on you obviously, but this shit is really twisted and it's evident in almost every society. Culture, my ass. It's pure self-interest being carried out on a horrific and heart-breaking and infuriating scale....

[MikeyIdea]

Hi Scooter

I think we respect each other more now

So many children suffer in one way or another around the world, as you write loved or not they still suffer, it is sad to think of. Education is the solution but the uneducated don't want to listen and understand because they don't know and understand

I also thought Thai thinking was illogical 20 years ago, then I thought I could understand a bit, wrong, then I accepted that and thought I could at least predict, wrong, then I actually could predict a bit, then more, then I thought I could understand, wrong again but I could understand more. But gradualy over time I did understand more and more. I am not fully learned yet. There IS logic, there is clear logic even. It is important to understand that timing matters a lot, logic is much based on the value people put on timing. Westerners value future more, Thais value present more. Logic is clearly there in both cases but it is totally different

Self-interest - I totally agree, Thais are selfish people, and yet they are not. Selfishness(and "laziness") are clearly there. "Laziness", the value of action and at what time

Yes, there are poor girls who are influenced to go in to the sex trade, I do not deny it at all. Those who influence will in most cases respect the girls decision to continue to work in the factory if that is her choice too though, some will push more. That is so low, but it happens

I am not talking about girls being sold into sex trade but the standard Pattaya bar girls. For most, not all. It IS more fun to work in a bar than working 50 hours a week for 200 bath per day in a factory. Ask them and many will say that it is. Many of them already have children from a Thai relationship and the farang that they are afraid of the first time treat them with more respect than their Thai man ever did and many fall in love even. Then they get dis-illusionised because the farang doesn't want anything like that or doesn't understand of course.

Now you're going to go ballistic Bar girls falling in love? Yes, happens to many when they are new. There is a saying I have heard many times: It is fun to work in bar but you should not be in love. I have heard older girls recommending the newbies, Don't fall in love, don't. But they do. Good that you mention sisters, it is not strange as such that sisters more often work in the same trade. Yes, the older sister sometimes recommend their younger sister to come, depending on her experience, not unusual.

3. How convenient it is that the life of prostitution is such a vicious cycle! Yes, many of them have children as a result of...? Being uneducated teenage girls thrown into the horrific pit of exploitation? Oh, yes.

No, more than half the bar girls, easily, had children with a Thai partner before they came to Pattaya. I don't like Pattaya by the way, don't think I do

With abortion as illegal as their professions, a lot will choose to have the children. After all, you point out it's all about choice, right?

It really is so easily available that it is a choice in more developed areas, it was not readily available around the home village where their first child was conceived

And if they didn't want to do it, why wouldn't they just stop?

Because it is an easy way to make money after all, and most of the western men treat them with more respect than their lousy Thai husband ever did

Too many options to choose from - Well, they have good options when they start working, if they use the relatively easy life with more money than they ever have had in a bad way (as many do because they are uneducated), then eventually they get fewer and fewer options

4. It's very twisted, the Biblical and Asian cultural peculiarity which brainwashes children into thinking it is their responsibility to provide for their parents, rather than the other way around.

Everything my beloved mother did in her whole life was for me and my sister. I would feel ashamed of myself nowadays if I didn't want to help her who has done so much for me. I almost get tears in my eyes when I write this. Who's sick? Don't take offence, not intended, but I have strong feelings about this. In Thailand most children WANT to help their parents, don't you?

Tell me what is better, a society where the family ties are so weak and un-important that children don't even want to help their parents or one like in Asia where children wants to help their parents?

Role modelling - Of course you understand, apologies for what I wrote. It seems you believe the parents should be allowed to abuse their children, because it happened to them?

Absolutely not, I just accept why they do it, doesn't mean that I don't want them to stop. It's easier for the children to do what the bad parents want them to because the bad role modelling they got - Education is the solution but the uneducated don't want to listen and understand because they don't know and understand. It will slowly change, I hope that it will change faster than it does but it won't. Those who need change the most resist it the most too

There are so many contradictions in the Thai society, many are convenient agree, some contradictions are not contradictions at all for the Thais, they are just rightful thinking because of the values the Thais have.

I ask again, where is the logic?

No one was thinking the way you thought, it never existed. Logic is based on core values, 2 things that it helps to consider to (one day get to) understand Thai logic is the importance of the timing and the importance of practicality over discipline and repeatability

Logic is the enemy of evil. Logic is the enemy of culture. Logic is the enemy of progress.

The logic is different in each culture because logic is based on peoples core values and they differ between cultures. I don't agree with the 2 last statements above. Which logic? Which culture? The one that doesn't even value that children return a bit when their parents did so much for them? The "progress" of the culture being so un-civilised that it thinks it is normal to shovel their elders into homes when they get old? Can you deny that a culture like that seems very primitive in the family values respect?

Perception is in the eye of the beholder

Thanks for your detailed and insightful response. I'm not ragging on you obviously, but this shit is really twisted and it's evident in almost every society. Culture, my ass. It's pure self-interest being carried out on a horrific and heart-breaking and infuriating scale....

By the way: A culture that is more forgiving may be good for your blood pressure

Thanks too Scooter, interesing discussion

[TheyCallmeScooter]

It is a very interesting discussion and I thank you for it. Even though it may seem we've drifted slightly OT, this is very beneficial to my bewildered confusion at the nature of the reaction to the car crash and fallout.

I am picking up a few "ohh!" type things here and there, as obviously my ignorance is spectacular. But I mean no arrogance and have no cultural superiority complex when I state my sincere belief that they could learn a lot more by trying to understand how other cultures see things...than perhaps my culture (for all it's ridiculous flaws) could benefit from understanding the unique Thai approach to these issues. This is not a "me good, you bad" or "we're superior" silliness - I just see don't like seeing children exploited (by anything, but the scale of cultural exploitation is especially tragic).

It is not Western 'values' that makes me believe it's wrong that there are seemingly endless contradictions in Thai culture, not one of which seems remotely productive. Rather, they mostly seem to be the product of denial (or this is my suspicion, in any case).

Education is the solution but the uneducated don't want to listen and understand because they don't know and understand

Yup, and usually because their ignorance serves the purposes of some very intelligent (if despicable) types, who proactively work to ensure the continuance of it (whether it's the Catholic Church in the Philippines, or the warlords in Africa or every single nation on the planet which fails to adequately provide quality education / welfare for their children - doing so would create some real inconveniences for those at the top of the pyramids).

But christ, how can you help those who not only don't wish to help themselves...they don't wish to help their kids. You cannot really believe that taking your teenage daughter out of school to 'allow' (sigh) them to go have 'fun' in the sex industry is somehow acceptable or productive for that girl's life and chances of fulfilment / happiness?

There IS logic, there is clear logic even. It is important to understand that timing matters a lot, logic is much based on the value people put on timing. Westerners value future more, Thais value present more. Logic is clearly there in both cases but it is totally different

Well, self-interest is the ultimate logic (if we're being honest about human nature). It's a solid argument that acting in any other way is illogical. The one exception to this genetically-coded trait is the unconditional love a parent should feel for their child. They should be willing to sacrifice anything, endure anything to ensure their child's happiness (or they simply shouldn't have one). But what is going on in Thailand? Is there unconditional love in letting your 12 yr old drive 30 km a day because you don't want to leave your farm? Isn't farming often a losing proposition upcountry (requiring huge subsidies and populist spending campaigns)? It's not like they would be sacrificing her future were they to just ditch their rice-field, right?

Your example above is very good, however. Yes, Westerners are way too fixated with the rat race. Not as bad as Chinese though, so it's not an East meets West thing. But whilst you need to stop and smell the roses, you can't skip around the garden all day....to the point where your daughter feels she needs to forgo her future and start earning any (the only?) way a little girl can.

I am not talking about girls being sold into sex trade but the standard Pattaya bar girls. For most, not all. It IS more fun to work in a bar than working 50 hours a week for 200 bath per day in a factory. Ask them and many will say that it is.

I realise the truth is confronting to a lot of people on both sides of the cultural 'divide' and I respect that confronting awkward truths is uncomfortable...but you're making huge sampling errors.

Yes, the girls YOU speak to are having a hell of a lot more fun. Or...they think so, at least. Or so it seems, on the face of it. I won't get too graphic so as not to be too confronting, but please focus on my qualifier: The girls YOU speak to.

Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and you cry alone. Do you think all tears in the sex industry are tears of choice? They're all victims, but the more brutally victimised aren't sitting there laughing with you and their friends getting drunk in a Pattaya bar.

Now you're going to go ballistic. Bar girls falling in love? Yes, happens to many when they are new. There is a saying I have heard many times: It is fun to work in bar but you should not be in love. I have heard older girls recommending the newbies, Don't fall in love, don't. But they do.

Ballistic? No sir. Many fall in love weekly or even daily...the ones that are out-and-out emotionally damaged and addicted "to the hunt". Some are so emotionally wrecked by their experiences they constantly require the buzz that comes with hungry eyes on their body, the smiles from prospective customers make them feel wanted, wanting to feel desired is a classic addiction (one of the most damaging of all addictions). Many of them ruin every chance they have of happiness chasing that addiction, in ways that are not in their own self-interest. And they inflict colossal emotional trauma along the way, to guys who don't like to talk about it, and who don't understand why she keeps running away from them.

How hilarious that the older ones would advise the younger ones not to fall in love. If it's a mama-san passing on the most redundant advice a child could ever receive (as if a child has a choice lol), I would say that's another curious convenient approach: "Well, we did warn her, didn't we girls?" ahem.

No, more than half the bar girls, easily, had children with a Thai partner before they came to...

I admit I was oblivious to this. Are you half get knocked up in their villages at a young age, and then find themselves in the sex industry? Can you explain more about this phenomenon?

Too many options to choose from - Well, they have good options when they start working, if they use the relatively easy life with more money than they ever have had in a bad way (as many do because they are uneducated), then eventually they get fewer and fewer options

Hmm. Yes to the latter, but why would anyone leave until they're damaged by the downside? Then once they're damaged, they're often trapped (emotionally, if not physically devoid of options). This is why it's all so sick. It seems an amazing lifestyle to a young girl (who wouldn't want to live the 'glitzy' lifestyle they're conveniently given glimpses of, dancing all night, lots of friends, all these rich guys buying them presents and desiring them). But how many happy 30 year old ex-prostitutes do you think there would be? How many are still alive or in one piece?

Also, victims of miserable lifestyles are exceptionally good at pretending - sometimes, they even fool themselves in tragic ways. Think drug addicts when high. I bet you wouldn't find too many of them who aren't having fun. But then, you don't see them when they're crashing.

Everything my beloved mother did in her whole life was for me and my sister. I would feel ashamed of myself nowadays if I didn't want to help her who has done so much for me. I almost get tears in my eyes when I write this. Who's sick? Don't take offence, not intended, but I have strong feelings about this. In Thailand most children WANT to help their parents, don't you?

But you are not a teenage girl being proactively pressured with family problems to leave school at a young age and sacrifice your life. Read your first line and apply that to what we're talking about.

Would you feel ashamed at not wanting to help her if little, or NOTHING, she did in her life was for you and your sister (aside from giving birth to you both)? These girls do. Nothing has ever been done for them by their parents, quite the horrific opposite in fact, yet if you even suggest that they should not ship home the majority of their earnings, they are liable to get seriously offended and vehemently 'defend' their family....who LOVES them. Ask them what their family has ever done for them? It's all love love love, nothing tangible - obviously. Yeah, I believe their family believes they love them. Incredibly conveniently and not at all visible in their actions.

Tell me what is better, a society where the family ties are so weak and un-important that children don't even want to help their parents or one like in Asia where children wants to help their parents?

It's not one or the other. Name a society where children forget everything their loving parents did for them. Whilst I'm sure there are exceptions, there are no societies where children don't love their loving, self-sacrificing parents.

There are lots of societies where children REMEMBER how selfish their parents were when they were kids, and feel no compulsion to help them in return. That's...healthy. The alternative is a bit irrational. Demanding children help their parents WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE EFFECTIVELY BABIES? That's sick. Don't you agree?

I don't agree with the 2 last statements above. Which logic? Which culture? The one that doesn't even value that children return a bit when their parents did so much for them? The "progress" of the culture being so un-civilised that it thinks it is normal to shovel their elders into homes when they get old? Can you deny that a culture like that seems very primitive in the family values respect?

I think you are forgetting the fact that there is no culture which does this. There are cultures which were full of selfish humans who were horrible parents, and only their kids really are aware of that. Western humans are not superior to Thai humans. Parents in the West are grotesquely selfish and lazy and crappy parents (this is not the exception so much as the rule); Thailand doesn't have a monopoly on parental selfishness.

The difference is Western children, WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS, feel no compulsion to reward their parents' selfishness with their unconditional love. They'll throw them in a home. No one likes to talk about why, but don't think the children are ungrateful and evil. No, they just have very long and vivid memories.

A culture which demands the children of selfish parents ignore the selfishness and reward their parents with love and care once they've grown up and have kids of their own? That's a backwards culture, and I feel no requirement to apologise for saying so.

A culture which demands the children of selfish parents ignore the selfishness and reward their parents with love and care BEFORE they've grown, when they're still children?! That's (a large element of) Thai culture.

By the way: A culture that is more forgiving may be good for your blood pressure

lolz. No, I've tried that - I lived in Manila. They're totally forgiving and relaxed and chilled out there. Everything will be okay, man. Just relax, Sir. Have a seat. For awhile, for awhile. Why stress?

Seems healthy and a positive way to live, right? I'd suggest anyone who thinks so first check out the Manila slums and educate themselves to the realities of that kind of lackadaisical apathy. It's not acceptable. It would be, if everyone chose to live that way. The millions of children suffering from their parents' apathy and chilled out approach to life?

They didn't get a choice.

------------

Of course, there is a heavy slice of Presbyterian guilt in my ranting. I know I could - should - be doing a hell of a lot more. But of course, I am lazy and selfish too. So I rant. At least I'm not letting my offspring take care of me, before they're old enough to even take care of themselves. *rationalisation* sigh.

[lannarebirth]

It is a very interesting discussion and I thank you for it. Even though it may seem we've drifted slightly OT, this is very beneficial to my bewildered confusion at the nature of the reaction to the car crash and fallout.

I am picking up a few "ohh!" type things here and there, as obviously my ignorance is spectacular. But I mean no arrogance and have no cultural superiority complex when I state my sincere belief that they could learn a lot more by trying to understand how other cultures see things...than perhaps my culture (for all it's ridiculous flaws) could benefit from understanding the unique Thai approach to these issues. This is not a "me good, you bad" or "we're superior" silliness - I just see don't like seeing children exploited (by anything, but the scale of cultural exploitation is especially tragic).

It is not Western 'values' that makes me believe it's wrong that there are seemingly endless contradictions in Thai culture, not one of which seems remotely productive. Rather, they mostly seem to be the product of denial (or this is my suspicion, in any case).

Education is the solution but the uneducated don't want to listen and understand because they don't know and understand

Yup, and usually because their ignorance serves the purposes of some very intelligent (if despicable) types, who proactively work to ensure the continuance of it (whether it's the Catholic Church in the Philippines, or the warlords in Africa or every single nation on the planet which fails to adequately provide quality education / welfare for their children - doing so would create some real inconveniences for those at the top of the pyramids).

But christ, how can you help those who not only don't wish to help themselves...they don't wish to help their kids. You cannot really believe that taking your teenage daughter out of school to 'allow' (sigh) them to go have 'fun' in the sex industry is somehow acceptable or productive for that girl's life and chances of fulfilment / happiness?

There IS logic, there is clear logic even. It is important to understand that timing matters a lot, logic is much based on the value people put on timing. Westerners value future more, Thais value present more. Logic is clearly there in both cases but it is totally different

Well, self-interest is the ultimate logic (if we're being honest about human nature). It's a solid argument that acting in any other way is illogical. The one exception to this genetically-coded trait is the unconditional love a parent should feel for their child. They should be willing to sacrifice anything, endure anything to ensure their child's happiness (or they simply shouldn't have one). But what is going on in Thailand? Is there unconditional love in letting your 12 yr old drive 30 km a day because you don't want to leave your farm? Isn't farming often a losing proposition upcountry (requiring huge subsidies and populist spending campaigns)? It's not like they would be sacrificing her future were they to just ditch their rice-field, right?

Your example above is very good, however. Yes, Westerners are way too fixated with the rat race. Not as bad as Chinese though, so it's not an East meets West thing. But whilst you need to stop and smell the roses, you can't skip around the garden all day....to the point where your daughter feels she needs to forgo her future and start earning any (the only?) way a little girl can.

I am not talking about girls being sold into sex trade but the standard Pattaya bar girls. For most, not all. It IS more fun to work in a bar than working 50 hours a week for 200 bath per day in a factory. Ask them and many will say that it is.

I realise the truth is confronting to a lot of people on both sides of the cultural 'divide' and I respect that confronting awkward truths is uncomfortable...but you're making huge sampling errors.

Yes, the girls YOU speak to are having a hell of a lot more fun. Or...they think so, at least. Or so it seems, on the face of it. I won't get too graphic so as not to be too confronting, but please focus on my qualifier: The girls YOU speak to.

Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Cry, and you cry alone. Do you think all tears in the sex industry are tears of choice? They're all victims, but the more brutally victimised aren't sitting there laughing with you and their friends getting drunk in a Pattaya bar.

Now you're going to go ballistic. Bar girls falling in love? Yes, happens to many when they are new. There is a saying I have heard many times: It is fun to work in bar but you should not be in love. I have heard older girls recommending the newbies, Don't fall in love, don't. But they do.

Ballistic? No sir. Many fall in love weekly or even daily...the ones that are out-and-out emotionally damaged and addicted "to the hunt". Some are so emotionally wrecked by their experiences they constantly require the buzz that comes with hungry eyes on their body, the smiles from prospective customers make them feel wanted, wanting to feel desired is a classic addiction (one of the most damaging of all addictions). Many of them ruin every chance they have of happiness chasing that addiction, in ways that are not in their own self-interest. And they inflict colossal emotional trauma along the way, to guys who don't like to talk about it, and who don't understand why she keeps running away from them.

How hilarious that the older ones would advise the younger ones not to fall in love. If it's a mama-san passing on the most redundant advice a child could ever receive (as if a child has a choice lol), I would say that's another curious convenient approach: "Well, we did warn her, didn't we girls?" ahem.

No, more than half the bar girls, easily, had children with a Thai partner before they came to...

I admit I was oblivious to this. Are you half get knocked up in their villages at a young age, and then find themselves in the sex industry? Can you explain more about this phenomenon?

Too many options to choose from - Well, they have good options when they start working, if they use the relatively easy life with more money than they ever have had in a bad way (as many do because they are uneducated), then eventually they get fewer and fewer options

Hmm. Yes to the latter, but why would anyone leave until they're damaged by the downside? Then once they're damaged, they're often trapped (emotionally, if not physically devoid of options). This is why it's all so sick. It seems an amazing lifestyle to a young girl (who wouldn't want to live the 'glitzy' lifestyle they're conveniently given glimpses of, dancing all night, lots of friends, all these rich guys buying them presents and desiring them). But how many happy 30 year old ex-prostitutes do you think there would be? How many are still alive or in one piece?

Also, victims of miserable lifestyles are exceptionally good at pretending - sometimes, they even fool themselves in tragic ways. Think drug addicts when high. I bet you wouldn't find too many of them who aren't having fun. But then, you don't see them when they're crashing.

Everything my beloved mother did in her whole life was for me and my sister. I would feel ashamed of myself nowadays if I didn't want to help her who has done so much for me. I almost get tears in my eyes when I write this. Who's sick? Don't take offence, not intended, but I have strong feelings about this. In Thailand most children WANT to help their parents, don't you?

But you are not a teenage girl being proactively pressured with family problems to leave school at a young age and sacrifice your life. Read your first line and apply that to what we're talking about.

Would you feel ashamed at not wanting to help her if little, or NOTHING, she did in her life was for you and your sister (aside from giving birth to you both)? These girls do. Nothing has ever been done for them by their parents, quite the horrific opposite in fact, yet if you even suggest that they should not ship home the majority of their earnings, they are liable to get seriously offended and vehemently 'defend' their family....who LOVES them. Ask them what their family has ever done for them? It's all love love love, nothing tangible - obviously. Yeah, I believe their family believes they love them. Incredibly conveniently and not at all visible in their actions.

Tell me what is better, a society where the family ties are so weak and un-important that children don't even want to help their parents or one like in Asia where children wants to help their parents?

It's not one or the other. Name a society where children forget everything their loving parents did for them. Whilst I'm sure there are exceptions, there are no societies where children don't love their loving, self-sacrificing parents.

There are lots of societies where children REMEMBER how selfish their parents were when they were kids, and feel no compulsion to help them in return. That's...healthy. The alternative is a bit irrational. Demanding children help their parents WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE EFFECTIVELY BABIES? That's sick. Don't you agree?

I don't agree with the 2 last statements above. Which logic? Which culture? The one that doesn't even value that children return a bit when their parents did so much for them? The "progress" of the culture being so un-civilised that it thinks it is normal to shovel their elders into homes when they get old? Can you deny that a culture like that seems very primitive in the family values respect?

I think you are forgetting the fact that there is no culture which does this. There are cultures which were full of selfish humans who were horrible parents, and only their kids really are aware of that. Western humans are not superior to Thai humans. Parents in the West are grotesquely selfish and lazy and crappy parents (this is not the exception so much as the rule); Thailand doesn't have a monopoly on parental selfishness.

The difference is Western children, WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS, feel no compulsion to reward their parents' selfishness with their unconditional love. They'll throw them in a home. No one likes to talk about why, but don't think the children are ungrateful and evil. No, they just have very long and vivid memories.

A culture which demands the children of selfish parents ignore the selfishness and reward their parents with love and care once they've grown up and have kids of their own? That's a backwards culture, and I feel no requirement to apologise for saying so.

A culture which demands the children of selfish parents ignore the selfishness and reward their parents with love and care BEFORE they've grown, when they're still children?! That's (a large element of) Thai culture.

By the way: A culture that is more forgiving may be good for your blood pressure

lolz. No, I've tried that - I lived in Manila. They're totally forgiving and relaxed and chilled out there. Everything will be okay, man. Just relax, Sir. Have a seat. For awhile, for awhile. Why stress?

Seems healthy and a positive way to live, right? I'd suggest anyone who thinks so first check out the Manila slums and educate themselves to the realities of that kind of lackadaisical apathy. It's not acceptable. It would be, if everyone chose to live that way. The millions of children suffering from their parents' apathy and chilled out approach to life?

They didn't get a choice.

------------

Of course, there is a heavy slice of Presbyterian guilt in my ranting. I know I could - should - be doing a hell of a lot more. But of course, I am lazy and selfish too. So I rant. At least I'm not letting my offspring take care of me, before they're old enough to even take care of themselves. *rationalisation* sigh.

Sorry Scooter, I couldn't get through all that and you may have addressed it later, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here, where you said " Well, self interest is the ultimate logic ( if we're being honest about human nature) ". I'm going to say "enlightened self interest may be the ultimate logic" , though I can't say for sure. Definitions of "enlightened, "self interest", and "logic" will of course vary.

[MikeyIdea]

I read a few things that really make me want to answer now but I can't, I have way too much work left to do before I go home. It can easily pass midnight at work if I start

I'll be away over the weekend and have meeting all day on Monday so it may be Tuesday before I can answer but I will, sorry for the delay

Have a nice weekend Scooter

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, where you said " Well, self interest is the ultimate logic ( if we're being honest about human nature) ". I'm going to say "enlightened self interest may be the ultimate logic" , though I can't say for sure. Definitions of "enlightened, "self interest", and "logic" will of course vary.

You're correct, of course. And I know exactly what you mean.

There are many kinds of self-interest. A great deal of selfish behaviour isn't remotely in the interests of the person who's appears almost psychopathic-level selfish. This has tripped me up before actually, believing a g/f was unfathomably selfish until I realised nothing she did was remotely in her own self-interest. She was just ill. Kinda sad, but after 5 months I gave up.

I read a few things that really make me want to answer now but I can't, I have way too much work left to do before I go home. It can easily pass midnight at work if I start

I'll be away over the weekend and have meeting all day on Monday so it may be Tuesday before I can answer but I will, sorry for the delay

Have a nice weekend Scooter

No problem, thanks for the chat - hope we can continue it when you have time to work through my rambling, have a good one!

[selftaopath]

Logic can be taught and culture is also a learned behavior. If these two bring and individual or a people to a more reliable, beneficial conclusion or outcome then the logic/culture ought to be embraced. If not then CHANGE. There is NO reason to hold onto old beliefs/way if they are not applicable to reaching a desired goal which does not impeed or injures others or a society. Here are a few definitions that might aid in learning/re-learning:

Definition: Logic

log·ic

   /ˈlɒdʒɪk/ Show Spelled[loj-ik] Show IPA

–noun

1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.

3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.

5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

6. Computers . logic circuit.

Use logic in a Sentence

See images of logic

Search logic on the Web

Origin:

1325–75; ME logik < L logica, n. use of neut. pl. (in ML taken as fem. sing.) of Gk logikós of speech or reason. See logo-, -ic

—Related forms

log·ic·less, adjective

non·log·ic, noun

—Synonyms

4. sense, cogency.

cul·ture

   /ˈkʌltʃər/ Show Spelled [kuhl-cher] Show IPA noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.

–noun

1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.

2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.

3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.

4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.

5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Logic can be taught and culture is also a learned behavior. If these two bring and individual or a people to a more reliable, beneficial conclusion or outcome then the logic/culture ought to be embraced. If not then CHANGE. There is NO reason to hold onto old beliefs/way if they are not applicable to reaching a desired goal which does not impeed or injures others or a society.

Spot on!

I mistyped in one of my posts above but I doubt anyone was confused by it...

Ah, but no Sir. I ask again, where is the logic?

Logic is the enemy of evil. Logic is the enemy of culture. Logic is the enemy of progress.

It is not cute or idiosyncratic or quaint when cultural values lack any form of logic. You can bet your ass whenever you find a cultural norm in any society that is lacking in logic, there is evil being ignored or rationalised away by a group of people or an entire society that is in denial.

I wrote this huge essay a few weeks back about the nature of 'offence' and 'sensitivity' (personal and cultural) and censorship for the sake of 'politeness', so as to avoid 'offending' those with offensive / odious beliefs. The intrinsic argument the paper makes is that deceit to avoid conflict is an obvious logic fail. Honesty can cause conflict sure, but only when one side is unwilling to be reasonable or logical. You cannot escape the conflict that will result eventually from that disparity of willingness to find compromise...you can only postpone it.

Deceit for the purposes of avoiding that conflict now, does nothing to address the fundamental issues giving rise to conflicting positions. It's a cop-out, it's lazy, it's despicable, and it's an obvious moral hazard. Hey, let's postpone the conflict until later by pretending we're all friends now. That is all it is, and it's not true diplomacy. Conflict postponed is always going to be worse than conflict discussed rationally now (i.e. the appeasement of Hitler throughout the 30's).

When you ask someone who you couldn't possibly be expected to genuinely have an interest in (a stranger in an elevator, whom you'll never meet again - for example) how they are doing and express vague sentiments of well-wishing etc, society will tell you that's "proper etiquette" and anything else (i.e. being honest) would be considered grossly "impolite".

Hogwash. Rational, pragmatic truth is never impolite. Deceit for the purposes of manipulation is grossly impolite. There is nothing more offensive than someone pretending to have an interest in my welfare when I have no interest in theirs, they have no interest in mine, neither of us could possibly be expected to have an interest in each other's. It's deceitful and inherently offensive. Proof that it is deceitful (for those of you who are fawningly polite to strangers) can be found in the reaction to answers which are truthful. Truthfully answering a question of "Hey, how you doing today?" would be deemed horribly IMPOLITE lol. What a stupid world we live in.

Cultural and religious sensitivity is an extrapolation of this "we must be deceitful to be polite" fallacy. It is not impolite when you ask a moderate Muslim (or a Christian, for that matter) to explain the contradiction presented by their swearing that they don't believe in the hundreds of excerpts in the Qur'an (or Bible) which are horrifically explicit and vile and evil...and....their curious refusal to redact those odious passages from their Holy Book. Oh, sure they will tell you that your question is 'rude' and 'offensive' - but that's nonsense, of course. They will actually kill you if you push the issue, or if you draw cartoons of The Prophet in peaceful expressions of dissent against the tyranny of violence and evil.

Anyone who cowers under Evil's threatening glare, anyone who - fearful of conflict - appeases and facilitates the continuance of Evil by citing "cultural / religious sensitivity"....anyone like that is a shameful / ill-advised coward and a Chamberlain and a facilitator of (exponentially increased) conflict down the line.

Logic and Truth presented and argued intelligently can never be 'impolite' or 'rude' or 'insensitive'. Whenever someone is claiming to be offended by intelligent opinions argued logically and rationally and expressed genuinely / truthfully, you can bet your LIFE that 'offended' person is either in horrific Denial or is attempting to keep their odious beliefs in the shadows. And there is nothing that is more offensive than that.

100% of all censorship of intelligent opinion / expression / logical argument is enacted to merely postpone conflict, to protect the sensitivities of those who are horrifically insensitive to the views of others, to propagate ignorance and/or conserve the ability of those who very much desire to be allowed to continue to hold onto their unacceptable belief systems which harm innocents. If someone is offended by ANYTHING, they must be forced to make an intelligent and rational case for why they are offended. If they refuse, or if they cannot, they are covering up something which should be discussed openly and rationally and intelligently. That's as logical as logic ever gets.

Why must they be forced to explain their 'offence'? For the simple reason that when they cannot, as God and Allah and Jehovah and Krishnu and my mother are my witnesses, I assure you that person is covering up something pretty odious which they don't wish to discuss openly or rationally. And they're either lying about their 'offence', or they're lying to themselves.

And that is the TRUTH. I hope anyone who is offended presents their case for why. If you cannot, begone with your Evil.

Please.

[canuckamuck]

This thread is setting a new standard in off topic wandering.

There are times when avoiding a conflict is well advised, particularly when a cool down period buffers that eventual confrontation. But I do agree that dishonesty to save face is a fools errand and just spreads the mess and destroys credibility.

It is an interesting situation in Thailand however, wherever lying to save face is integrated into the culture. This gives you a situation where you know everyone is lying, it is kind of a level playing field. The problem with this knowledge is that all you can do with it is pick which liar you identify with, rather than discover who has integrity. Also it creates a problem where if one actually had integrity, no one else would believe it.

Edited January 9, 2011 by canuckamuck

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This thread is setting a new standard in off topic wandering.

There are times when avoiding a conflict is well advised, particularly when a cool down period buffers that eventual confrontation. But I do agree that dishonesty to save face is a fools errand and just spreads the mess and destroys credibility.

It is an interesting situation in Thailand however, wherever lying to save face is integrated into the culture. This gives you a situation where you know everyone is lying, it is kind of a level playing field. The problem with this knowledge is that all you can do with it is pick which liar you identify with, rather than discover who has integrity. Also it creates a problem where if one actually had integrity, no one else would believe it.

Yep the OT tangent is my 'fault' and was not initially intended (when I asked how Thais viewed the "coming of age" cutoff point, I didn't realise the fact that more or less value "coming of age" at whatever age suits their cultural 'necessities', even in unfathomably contradictory ways).

I'm seeking advice on remedying the OT discussion but I think there are some Google caching complexities in play, so all this might need to be deleted in the end - awaiting response, but hopefully can salvage it somehow cause it's fascinating (imo). I desperately want to comment on your very good point regarding "saving face" and the inefficiencies of it, but will hold off for now.

Back to What Went Wrong on the Tollway...somewhat ironically, I think our OT discussion holds the answer to the question posed in the OP