More Substance Needed In Reaching Out To Thai Muslims

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

More substance needed in reaching out to Thai Muslims

By The Nation

Beyond funding an academic event, efforts must be made to take Islam more seriously

It was not quite in the same league as US President Barack Obama's famous speech in Cairo, but Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva tried hard to hit the right chord with visiting representatives of the Muslim world at the recent opening of an international conference on Islamic studies in Pattani.

Abhisit talked about how Thai Muslims have climbed the social ladder and achieved great social and political heights. They include ministers, senior officials and a recent retired Army chief who, incidentally, engineered a coup against Thaksin Shinawatra on the ground that he was grossly corrupt.

It is true that Thailand does not have a problem of religious freedom. But it does have a problem with a Muslim-majority region in the southernmost provinces. The dispute is centred on the legitimacy of the Thai state in the Malays' historical homeland. There is an insurgency that so far has claimed more than 4,300 lives. Let's hope the political context doesn't change from Malay nationalism into a struggle for Islam. If that happens, one can be certain that Islamic radicals from abroad will try to take advantage of the situation.

Abhisit started off by saying that Thailand's Muslim-majority south was "an Islamic centre that had flourished well before the colonial period", but said absolutely nothing about the historical mistrust, or the ongoing insurgency, between this Malay-speaking region and the state. However, Abhisit probably said more about this region's historical and cultural past and contribution than any other leader in the recent past. Most of the statements of Thai leaders before him tended to centre on Thailand's sovereignty over this contested region, a sign of insecurity over the state's legitimacy in this Malay historical homeland.

Worse than that, some top-ranking officials even have the audacity to claim that other parts of what is now Malaysia, as well as Cambodia and Burma, were part of old Thailand, known as Siam.

They tend to forget that in pre-colonial civilisations, the extent of one's geographical influence and control changed all the time. Colonial periods gave this region, and much of the world, something we never had before - namely political borders within which leaders tried to get their citizens to worship as if the borders were written in stone.

Nevertheless, Abhisit was right to say that Islam, which is embraced by some 1.6 billion people worldwide, needs to be taken seriously. And because it is one of the most talked about belief systems, it is inevitable that it is sometimes misunderstood.

"But when we talk about Islamic studies, we must stress that this academic discipline is important not simply because of the large number of Muslims in the world. Its importance lies rather in the roles it could play in shaping or changing the globalised world that we now live in," Abhisit said in his opening speech.

Moreover, Islamic studies can help created a better understanding of the Muslim world and its complexity and diversities.

But when we look at our student body and their interests, it is sad to say that the level of interest is not very promising. Islamic studies in various universities and colleges in Thailand are mainly taken up by Muslim students. They enroll in the courses to reinforce their faith.

But in many Western countries and institutions, students of Islamic studies tend to be non-Muslims thus, suggesting that there is genuine interest in the subject matter in a scholarly sense.

Besides going down to Prince of Songkhla University in Pattani to open an international conference on Islam, the government should do more than just fund an academic event.

We can start by translating and preserving the works of Muslim scholars from the deep South and acknowledging the historical and cultural importance of this region that, unfortunately, is being treated as a footnote in the context of the Thai state.

-- The Nation 2011-01-02

[jayjay0]

Perhaps before reaching out to the Muslim's the PM should look at the benefits they have brought to Europe. Over loading of there social welfare system. Fear of bomb attack's.

Here's a idea Islam reach out to Muslims.

[asiawatcher]

I would annex the south back to Malaysia and have the Thai govt pay the resettlement of Thais which would be far cheaper than this ongoing war and deaths. Move the border and let the Muslims live with the world they have created in isolation. It may be a tough call on Thai's but many are leaving the area anyway as living in constant fear is no life at all. Thailand should have no place for extremism and violence caused by 'religion'.

[whybother]

I would annex the south back to Malaysia and have the Thai govt pay the resettlement of Thais which would be far cheaper than this ongoing war and deaths. Move the border and let the Muslims live with the world they have created in isolation. It may be a tough call on Thai's but many are leaving the area anyway as living in constant fear is no life at all. Thailand should have no place for extremism and violence caused by 'religion'.

"back to Malaysia"

Were they ever Malaysia's?

[elshaheen]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim’s, Christian’s, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don’t involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim’s, Christian’s and Buddhist’s actively volunteering or working there. I’ve had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

“War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method.”

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

Edited January 2, 2011 by elshaheen

[jayjay0]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim's, Christian's, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don't involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim's, Christian's and Buddhist's actively volunteering or working there. I've had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

"War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method."

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

I like the Dali Lama's idea

Unfortunately one of the major players in the conference is Islam. And they have no problem killing themselves. to them it is a way of life. The Koran urges them to kill the infidels. So they divide into separate sect's say the other one is a infidel and kill him also. To them life is cheap makes no difference what religion to them particularly if you are a women. Now how are you going to find some one to represent them much less get them to agree to what position to take.

I guess one can hope dosen't seem to be a lot else.

[transam]

Am l not right that Muslims from whatever part of the planet do not recognise any other religion. In fact all those with another religion or belief are infidels and should be disposed of ? So how can anyone get closer. You can bend over backwards but you won't change anything.

In the west and now east the extremes are killing their own Muslims with indiscriminate killings (bombings), a mindset that will not be changed.

[elshaheen]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim's, Christian's, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don't involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim's, Christian's and Buddhist's actively volunteering or working there. I've had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

"War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method."

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

I like the Dali Lama's idea

Unfortunately one of the major players in the conference is Islam. And they have no problem killing themselves. to them it is a way of life. The Koran urges them to kill the infidels. So they divide into separate sect's say the other one is a infidel and kill him also. To them life is cheap makes no difference what religion to them particularly if you are a women. Now how are you going to find some one to represent them much less get them to agree to what position to take.

I guess one can hope dosen't seem to be a lot else.

I really love American narrow-mindedness, you would make a perfect white supremacist in a region of the world full of Asians, some of them communists, and some of them hate you just as much as you hate them, but they keep it quite. I am Muslim and you offended my people. So please show me the passage instead of spouting your hatred. Show me the passage, rip it out and show me.

[elshaheen]

Am l not right that Muslims from whatever part of the planet do not recognise any other religion. In fact all those with another religion or belief are infidels and should be disposed of ? So how can anyone get closer. You can bend over backwards but you won't change anything.

In the west and now east the extremes are killing their own Muslims with indiscriminate killings (bombings), a mindset that will not be changed.

As a Muslim, they accept are told to accept other people from different faiths. Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi, and so on. Though, each religion has some members, who are extreme in their views, no question about it. Now, the big problem in Southern Thailand and youth. They don’t really don’t know how to read the Koran or interoperates its meaning. Their “teacher” tells them what it means from a certain point of view, the wrong point of view. Recognized Muslims are going down there to teach these youth, what is right and what is wrong. My neighborhood is about 70% Islam, and they tolerate others just fine.

[elshaheen]

Let's just stop this topic, before it goes any farther.

[housepainter]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim's, Christian's, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don't involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim's, Christian's and Buddhist's actively volunteering or working there. I've had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

"War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method."

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

I like the Dali Lama's idea

Unfortunately one of the major players in the conference is Islam. And they have no problem killing themselves. to them it is a way of life. The Koran urges them to kill the infidels. So they divide into separate sect's say the other one is a infidel and kill him also. To them life is cheap makes no difference what religion to them particularly if you are a women. Now how are you going to find some one to represent them much less get them to agree to what position to take.

I guess one can hope dosen't seem to be a lot else.

I really love American narrow-mindedness, you would make a perfect white supremacist in a region of the world full of Asians, some of them communists, and some of them hate you just as much as you hate them, but they keep it quite. I am Muslim and you offended my people. So please show me the passage instead of spouting your hatred. Show me the passage, rip it out and show me.

I only intended to respond to the headline by way of jibing about ' substance abuse' then I read the above.

American narrow mindedness? Now, now the censors will on to protect those abused stars and spangles from your harsh words. Its' not allowed to be critical of ignorance or anything unsubstatiated, remember?

I actually agree with you regarding reference, page, quote. I had to laugh as I thought killing yourself was a way of death not life. But then what do I know? I'm not American so must be wrong.

Edited January 2, 2011 by housepainter

[cdnvic]

Both notions being spouted here, about Muslims being inherently violent, and about Americans being narrow-minded are incorrect and have no place here. Please calm the rhetoric and try to have a sensible discussion rather than regurgitating talk radio-like finger pointing.

[transam]

Am l not right that Muslims from whatever part of the planet do not recognise any other religion. In fact all those with another religion or belief are infidels and should be disposed of ? So how can anyone get closer. You can bend over backwards but you won't change anything.

In the west and now east the extremes are killing their own Muslims with indiscriminate killings (bombings), a mindset that will not be changed.

As a Muslim, they accept are told to accept other people from different faiths. Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi, and so on. Though, each religion has some members, who are extreme in their views, no question about it. Now, the big problem in Southern Thailand and youth. They don't really don't know how to read the Koran or interoperates its meaning. Their "teacher" tells them what it means from a certain point of view, the wrong point of view. Recognized Muslims are going down there to teach these youth, what is right and what is wrong. My neighborhood is about 70% Islam, and they tolerate others just fine.

Well there you go. I guy writes a book which isn't clear in it's meaning. Same with the Christian Bible, so people choose to give it a different meaning and distort stuff, but both have been written by a bloke and NOT by whatever/ whoever is up there.

[cdnvic]

One inflammatory and ignorant comment removed. Next one earns a suspension.

[Xangsamhua]

The Prime Minister spoke at a conference on Islamic Studies, not one on solving the problems of the South, which are not necessarily fueled by Islam or Islamism. In speaking of reaching out to the Muslims in the South, he may have been referring to the need to give more voice and role to ethnic Malays in the region, who of course are Muslim.

Whether Islam is a totalizing religion or a tolerant one is not really pertinent to the context in which the PM was speaking or the context of the historical grievances of the Malays of the former Pattani sultanate (which included Yala and Narathiwat). The issue is when and how the Thai central government is going to acknowledge the need for levels of autonomy and self-determination among the Malay people in the South.

I've quoted below from a short review of Duncan McCargo's 2008 book "Tearing Apart the Land" as a matter of interest.

McCargo's book argues that Thailand's overcentralized state failed to give meaningful participation to ethnically Malay Muslim citizens. The resulting popular alienation led to the violence that has been going on in Thailand since 2001. Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's regime, although popularly elected, was especially inept in relations with local minorities. The chapter on police and army action is a case study on how to make local insurgencies worse instead of better. In McCargo's account, Islamic identity provided a frame -- but not the motive -- for the militant movement.

http://www.foreignaf...uthern-thailand

Edited January 2, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[jayjay0]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim's, Christian's, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don't involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim's, Christian's and Buddhist's actively volunteering or working there. I've had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

"War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method."

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

I like the Dali Lama's idea

Unfortunately one of the major players in the conference is Islam. And they have no problem killing themselves. to them it is a way of life. The Koran urges them to kill the infidels. So they divide into separate sect's say the other one is a infidel and kill him also. To them life is cheap makes no difference what religion to them particularly if you are a women. Now how are you going to find some one to represent them much less get them to agree to what position to take.

I guess one can hope dosen't seem to be a lot else.

I really love American narrow-mindedness, you would make a perfect white supremacist in a region of the world full of Asians, some of them communists, and some of them hate you just as much as you hate them, but they keep it quite. I am Muslim and you offended my people. So please show me the passage instead of spouting your hatred. Show me the passage, rip it out and show me.

It,s in your Koran. And no I don't hate you. I hate any religion that condones Terrorism and treats women the way Islam does. If it is not in the Koran you better get busy and tell Bin Laden. And as for your narrow minded point of view. I do live in Asia. and if you had the sense God or Allah or what ever gave a goose you would see that I am not a White supremest. That I take a strong dislike to some of the posters here on TV who do nothing but bash Thai's I have Thai friends I like Asian's that is why I live here.

You talk about narrow minded what Muslim country advertises itself as open to all religions. In Malaysia if you try to leave Islam they can punish you. How are the Christian's being treated in Egypt and Iran? You don't even have a clue to what open minded is.

You are a big part of the problem in the world. Instead of condemning Bin Laden and the others like him you defend him and send him a check. If Islam would stop supporting these people there would be a lot more peace in the world today.

[transam]

Who really knows anything about Muslims today? I mean with all the Rhetoric coming from various Government officials and born again Christians and Israel. In the Western countries, Muslims, Christians, and Jewish groups have formed such as Interfaith dialog groups consisting of Muslim's, Christian's, and Jewish people.

In Thailand, they have some but they don't involve Thai government, which are viewed as being more of the problem then the solution.

One example of shared cooperation between different faiths here in Bangkok, is the Mercy Center, located The Human Development Foundation, located behind Tesco/Lotus on Rama 4 in Klong Toey. If you ever had a chance to visit this place, they are helping children suffering from HIV/AIDS, Homeless people and so on. You will see Muslim's, Christian's and Buddhist's actively volunteering or working there. I've had the pleasure of working with Father Joe a few times, and he has a good heart. You can check out their site at: http://www.mercycentre.org.

A quote from the Dali Lama, that streses the need for Dialogue.

"War seems to be part of the history of humanity. As we look at the situation of our planet in the past, countries, regions and even villages were economically independent of one another. Under those circumstances, the destruction of our enemy might have been a victory for us. There was a relevance to violence and war. However, today we are so interdependent that the concept of war has become out dated. When we face problems or disagreements today, we have to arrive at solutions through dialogue. Dialogue is the only appropriate method. One-sided victory is no longer relevant. We must work to resolve conflicts in a spirit of reconciliation and always keep in mind the interests of others. We cannot destroy our neighbors! We cannot ignore their interests! Doing so would ultimately cause us to suffer. I therefore think that the concept of violence is now unsuitable. Nonviolence is the appropriate method."

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

So, in conclusion, governments cannot solve these issues only individuals.

I like the Dali Lama's idea

Unfortunately one of the major players in the conference is Islam. And they have no problem killing themselves. to them it is a way of life. The Koran urges them to kill the infidels. So they divide into separate sect's say the other one is a infidel and kill him also. To them life is cheap makes no difference what religion to them particularly if you are a women. Now how are you going to find some one to represent them much less get them to agree to what position to take.

I guess one can hope dosen't seem to be a lot else.

I really love American narrow-mindedness, you would make a perfect white supremacist in a region of the world full of Asians, some of them communists, and some of them hate you just as much as you hate them, but they keep it quite. I am Muslim and you offended my people. So please show me the passage instead of spouting your hatred. Show me the passage, rip it out and show me.

It,s in your Koran. And no I don't hate you. I hate any religion that condones Terrorism and treats women the way Islam does. If it is not in the Koran you better get busy and tell Bin Laden. And as for your narrow minded point of view. I do live in Asia. and if you had the sense God or Allah or what ever gave a goose you would see that I am not a White supremest. That I take a strong dislike to some of the posters here on TV who do nothing but bash Thai's I have Thai friends I like Asian's that is why I live here.

You talk about narrow minded what Muslim country advertises itself as open to all religions. In Malaysia if you try to leave Islam they can punish you. How are the Christian's being treated in Egypt and Iran? You don't even have a clue to what open minded is.

You are a big part of the problem in the world. Instead of condemning Bin Laden and the others like him you defend him and send him a check. If Islam would stop supporting these people there would be a lot more peace in the world today.

Thank you for that.

[lungmi]

The Prime Minister spoke at a conference on Islamic Studies, not one on solving the problems of the South, which are not necessarily fueled by Islam or Islamism. In speaking of reaching out to the Muslims in the South, he may have been referring to the need to give more voice and role to ethnic Malays in the region, who of course are Muslim.

Whether Islam is a totalizing religion or a tolerant one is not really pertinent to the context in which the PM was speaking or the context of the historical grievances of the Malays of the former Pattani sultanate (which included Yala and Narathiwat). The issue is when and how the Thai central government is going to acknowledge the need for levels of autonomy and self-determination among the Malay people in the South.

I've quoted below from a short review of Duncan McCargo's 2008 book "Tearing Apart the Land" as a matter of interest.

McCargo's book argues that Thailand's overcentralized state failed to give meaningful participation to ethnically Malay Muslim citizens. The resulting popular alienation led to the violence that has been going on in Thailand since 2001. Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's regime, although popularly elected, was especially inept in relations with local minorities. The chapter on police and army action is a case study on how to make local insurgencies worse instead of better. In McCargo's account, Islamic identity provided a frame -- but not the motive -- for the militant movement.

http://www.foreignaf...uthern-thailand

Duncan McCargo is a qualified analyst. Look at the link.

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/forstaff/news/article/1279/thai_officials_visit_university

[dave_boo]

I really love American narrow-mindedness, you would make a perfect white supremacist in a region of the world full of Asians, some of them communists, and some of them hate you just as much as you hate them, but they keep it quite. I am Muslim and you offended my people. So please show me the passage instead of spouting your hatred. Show me the passage, rip it out and show me.

Either you're not really a Muslim, because even the mention that a crazy ass church in Florida was going to burn some books sparked RIOTS throughout the Muslim world and you want some non-Muslim to rip up your holy text? Or you're a skillful manipulator of facts.

Assuming that, in fact, you are a Muslim here are some verses for you (which either you don't know because you recently converted or are deliberately hiding). Note how the first verse provides the definition of 'enemies' that allows Muslims to attack non Muslims...

Quran 5:82

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Quran 8:60

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

Quran 2:191

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

This last verse is interesting when compared against the foloowing; if a Muslim feels 'humiliated' they are to resort to murder; on the other hand Muslims are supposed to subdue unbelievers....

Quran 9:29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9:111

Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

It's also telling that you wish to project supremacism unto another person. What is the only authorised version of the Quran? Arabic.... How many non-Muslims can visit Mecca? What has been the historical fate of "unbelievers" in Muslim majority nations who rose to power? Etc, etc, etc.

As a Muslim, they accept are told to accept other people from different faiths. Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi, and so on. Though, each religion has some members, who are extreme in their views, no question about it. Now, the big problem in Southern Thailand and youth. They don't really don't know how to read the Koran or interoperates its meaning. Their "teacher" tells them what it means from a certain point of view, the wrong point of view. Recognized Muslims are going down there to teach these youth, what is right and what is wrong. My neighborhood is about 70% Islam, and they tolerate others just fine.

No they're not. Everyone who does not follow Islam belongs to Dar-al-Harb. If you were indeed serious about your claim than what of the attacks world-wide (you can't just say it's the Wahabbis!) around Christmas time? I'm talking about Iraq, Eygpt, Phillipines, Pakistan, etc. And what of the jizya?

Plus I think that Quran 98:6 directly contradicts your claim:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Furthermore the Malaysian Islamic Institute may have something to say about your claims of "accept other people from different faiths".

As would the Grand Mutfi of Saudi Arabia. Orignial Arabic here.

[cdnvic]

You can pick and choose nasty quotes from many holy books and paste them at each other, but that's not going to get you anywhere. Instead of pointing fingers why don't you guys ask each other some questions and learn something for a change rather than just fighting about it?

[Naam]

Plus I think that Quran 98:6 directly contradicts your claim:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye).

where is it specified that the "truth" is Islam? Judaism and Islam know basically one "truth" only (watered down by Christianity and its various sects) and that is

"hear ye o Israel, the LORD thy GOD is one"

and

"there is no GOD but GOD"

none of the "holy books" are specific but open to interpretations, carried out by "wise" men since milleniae. but these "wise" men are only human beings and their interpretations are personal views and opinions even if a bunch of them arrive at some consense. the biggest problem of "holy books" are their contradictions which you easily find in all of them.

last not least quotes from "transam" and "cdnvic" which are wise too:

Well there you go. I guy writes a book which isn't clear in it's meaning. Same with the Christian Bible, so people choose to give it a different meaning and distort stuff, but both have been written by a bloke and NOT by whatever/ whoever is up there.

You can pick and choose nasty quotes from many holy books and paste them at each other, but that's not going to get you anywhere.

[dave_boo]

You can pick and choose nasty quotes from many holy books and paste them at each other, but that's not going to get you anywhere. Instead of pointing fingers why don't you guys ask each other some questions and learn something for a change rather than just fighting about it?

With respect cdnvic; what question could be asked of someone who is apparently deliberately obfuscating the truth? I feel that you are projecting your own value system on others; not everyone thinks the same way. If this gets me in trouble because I'm criticising a moderator (which I'm not trying to do, just state the facts), so be it. But I would kindly ask you to asess what is driving your post; is it the thought that those who grew up in a diametrically different culture would somehow believe as you do and you can gain rapport with them by approaching them as you would someone from your own culture or is it a steadfast plugging of one's ears and grinning as you try and ignore the evidence (which I believe is a condescending and demeaning way of treating such behaviour as infantile by excusing it as 'that's their culture). It remains amazing to me that there is a zero tolerance policy to those who belittle Thais on this board (and I support that policy), but come along somebody else who is taught from birth the same attitude and all of a sudden it's ok (whiskey tango foxtrot!) since it's their religion?

But to honour your request here's some question I formulated in a short time that I'd be grateful for anyone to answer.

Q1) Does Islam actually teach that all other religions are bunk and conversion to Islam (except for enough of a population to remain as non-Islamic to pay jizya and make Muslims lives comfortable) is preferred to the point of forced conversions or trickery.

Q2) Do Islamic adherents actually believe that the Quran is the final word of god and that it is taken, along with the hadiths, as the ultimate rule book to control all aspects of their lives?

Q3) Do Islamic adherents practice taqiyaa, which is an allowed lying to either save oneself or advance Islam?

Q4) Can you provide any historical evidence of an Islamic country (or empire) where the non-Muslim population falling below 25% remained a healthy viable state? I'm sure that an answer will invariably point out the Middle East countries due to their luck of having the large oil deposits....so please find me another?

Q5) Considering the application of Sharia across the globe has followed a similar pattern, are you comfortable with the exaction of such a lifestyle on the people of the Pattani region?

[cdnvic]

Actually, it's an effort to avoid the predictable and well worn slagging match I see every time this topic comes up. My own opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

[dave_boo]

Plus I think that Quran 98:6 directly contradicts your claim:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye).

where is it specified that the "truth" is Islam? Judaism and Islam know basically one "truth" only (watered down by Christianity and its various sects) and that is

"hear ye o Israel, the LORD thy GOD is one"

and

"there is no GOD but GOD"

none of the "holy books" are specific but open to interpretations, carried out by "wise" men since milleniae. but these "wise" men are only human beings and their interpretations are personal views and opinions even if a bunch of them arrive at some consense. the biggest problem of "holy books" are their contradictions which you easily find in all of them.

last not least quotes from "transam" and "cdnvic" which are wise too:

Well there you go. I guy writes a book which isn't clear in it's meaning. Same with the Christian Bible, so people choose to give it a different meaning and distort stuff, but both have been written by a bloke and NOT by whatever/ whoever is up there.

You can pick and choose nasty quotes from many holy books and paste them at each other, but that's not going to get you anywhere.

Hello Herr Naam!

Actually the Quran is quite specific. Especially in regards to commandments regarding unbelievers....

The Torah is quite specific also. While violence against people is in there, it was targeted against a specific group. Furthermore the injunctions against homosexuality and other 'deviant' practices have been mostly downplayed; even though you hear of these punishments being continued in the modern Islamic world when was the last time it has been carried out by Jews?

I will take your word about the Bible even though something like 2/3rds of it come from the Jews the other 1/3 I'm fuzzy on.

I would also like to point out the Fiqh. It is the Islamic school of jurisprudence. Granted there are four of them, but the agree on the majority of the points, meaning there is essentially a monolithic understanding of Islam. And we just need to look to history to see what those who actually follow Islam do to people who claim to interept it differently!

But I agree, it's all just so shamelessly made up. The difference is that while most religions are mostly benign, I draw the line when there is one that actually promotes violence and an imposition of its values on others.....

[phetaroi]

I'm certainly no expert on Islam. But I have had some experiences with Muslim people that have helped me form my own personal views. Before retirement, I was a school principal just outside of Washington, D.C. We had a small contingent of Muslims each year in our school, from a variety of "Muslim nations", ranging from Malaysia (these were always people who worked at the embassy; the embassy owned several houses within our boundaries, where their personnel and their families lived)...to various "Middle Eastern" nations. We had a teacher who was Muslim and who had been fired from a fairly well-known Saudi-affiliated school in the D.C. area, and one that on occasion was in the news...and she had her own stories to tell. And, my son was adopted, and Pakistani, and he and I had many talks about Islam (he has now returned to Pakistan and opened a business in Islamabad). As a result of these liaisons, I've been invited to any number of post-Ramadan parties, and once to a huge (as in 150 or more people) party for Pakistani families in northern Virginia.

As I learned from my many interactions over 20+ years, it takes all types in the Muslim world, just as in the Christian world. I can understand forum member Elshaheen's frustrations in some of the postings here. But on the other hand, Elshaheen, let me tell you a couple of things that I learned from my son's adult Muslim friends. President George Bush -- actually both of them -- are secretly Jewish. It has been proven definitively that the 9/11 hijackers were all hired by the Bush administration to perpetrate their crimes so that the U.S. could militarily attack a variety of Muslim countries. And, while not all of the Muslims I met thought the Bushes were secretly Jewish, the VAST MAJORITY that I met all were anxious to tell me about "their truth" about the 9/11 hijackers, and at the end of dozens of such conversations to ask me, "Don't you agree?"

I can understand when people say that Americans aren't always open-minded or, for that matter, well-educated about the world. We have an attitude. No question about it. But, as a people, we are rather...hmmmmm...fair about things. One of my friends is a Jew...a school counselor. On 9/12 he visited the Islamic mosque in Falls Church, Virginia to meet with any Muslims who would talk to him to assure them that Americans didn't blame all Muslims for what had happened 24 hours earlier. There's a sharp debate about building the mosque at Ground Zero -- and that seems pretty understandable to me -- but for the most part, Americans believe that the Muslims have a RIGHT to build a mosque there, but also that it's an unwise and in-your-face plan that it is poor taste.

Personally, when I visited southern Thailand for 3 weeks just before the real problems once again broke out down there, I found quite a bit of rudeness on the part of Muslim shopkeepers and remember vividly that I was told I was not welcome to visit one mosque (although they said I could donate money!!!), and was told by Muslims not to go to one Muslim village because I was an American and I would not be safe. On the other hand, all my son's friends (and I am talking about adults) back in America were more than kind and friendly to me.

So, my point here is NOT that Americans are good and Muslims are bad, but rather than there are quite a few on each side who are...well, let's say narrow-minded. I'll leave others to decide what the balance is.

[whybother]

^

It has been proven definitively that the 9/11 hijackers were all hired by the Bush administration to perpetrate their crimes ...

[Xangsamhua]

The question is to what extent and in what ways should the Thai government "reach out" to the Malay Muslims in the South.

If we see Islam as a threat to peace, liberty and good order, then we will be interested less in reaching out than in containing it, but how? Obviously the present methods are not successful, unless one believes that Sharia law and all the worst features of Wahhabi-style Islam would now be in place otherwise.

As a liberal Western outsider, I see Islam where it is triumphant as totalising and repressive; however, what I am looking at is a reified image. Islam has a varied history, including totalising and liberalising manifestations. In part, the things that non-Muslims (and liberal Muslims) see as objectionable have arisen and developed from the medieval disputes in Islam over what takes precedence, the application of reason or the analysis of texts and application of law (fiqh and sharia). In Sunni Islam the latter triumphed. Sufi Islam, however, is largely untouched by the latter emphasis, and many Muslims follow Sufi traditions and approaches. Islam, like any other social/religious phenomenon, is varied and capable of significant changes as circumstances change.

That's an outsider's perspective, and one can engage with Islam from this perspective by examining the scriptures (and the Qur'an does not speak with one voice, so proof-texting is not the best way to go) and the history and the application of law in Muslim societies (is it always uncontested, for example?). But in the Southern Thai context, a Malay Muslim villager, unless the Wahhabis have gained ascendancy through Saudi money, is not thinking so much about Global Islamic goals, but the good governance of the village, moral and physical security for his/her family and freedom from police and civil servant interference and corruption.

If a Southern Muslim village is a wholesome community, well-led by the Imam and his lay advisors, why would the villagers welcome the central government authorities with their history of Siamification, chauvinism and contempt for Malay culture, Malay languages and Islam? Would a Malay fisherman or farmer in Pattani prefer to live in a village where drunkenness is unknown, families are strong, women and girls are protected (and encouraged to do well), and people are generally honest and responsible, or, on the other hand, to live in a village, say in the Northeast, where drunkenness is a feature, violence is frequent and morale is low?

[asiawatcher]

No matter - the 'books' are never written by the vanquished. The reprint and translation is well lost on the originals and the 'scholars' who put out the next edition are always making changes.

A line of WWI soldiers amongst the British was told 'bring reinforcements, we are going to advance". By the time it got down the line of the trenches it became "bring three and fourpence, we are going to a dance". KInda says it all.

And religions - no matter whose - are a spec on history only, and all only a couple of thousand years old and propagated by man, so why did we not know of all these 'gods' before hand as one? Cos there is no truth in any of it! People just need to belong - chapters of motorcycle gangs, street kids, school communities and parents and citizens, churches, mosques and in every one of them, someone takes the responsibility of leadership usually motivated by control, ego whatever and the sheep all follow - bit like MLM!!!. And then the fight begins...

If each one of these 'religions' did not try to impose their will on fellow humans of other beliefs, there would be no conflict at all and we could all live in harmony. But that is not going to happen. That is why I like Asia as a Farang and I am happier with my wife's Buddhist beliefs - a way of life - rather than the crazy hard core Christian upbringing I had of idiots in pulpits threatening burning in hell if I did not believe. Sheer idiocy and Christianity along with most other religions are not for any thinking man and are an insult to intelligence. Believe in what you will and each to his own. I certainly don't belong in any of it.

[Prapoj]

Haven't they been given enough? Why must they be treated differently? Why special privileges?

[geriatrickid]

Plus I think that Quran 98:6 directly contradicts your claim:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye).

where is it specified that the "truth" is Islam? Judaism and Islam know basically one "truth" only (watered down by Christianity and its various sects) and that is

"hear ye o Israel, the LORD thy GOD is one"

and

"there is no GOD but GOD"

none of the "holy books" are specific but open to interpretations, carried out by "wise" men since milleniae. but these "wise" men are only human beings and their interpretations are personal views and opinions even if a bunch of them arrive at some consense. the biggest problem of "holy books" are their contradictions which you easily find in all of them.

last not least quotes from "transam" and "cdnvic" which are wise too:

Well there you go. I guy writes a book which isn't clear in it's meaning. Same with the Christian Bible, so people choose to give it a different meaning and distort stuff, but both have been written by a bloke and NOT by whatever/ whoever is up there.

You can pick and choose nasty quotes from many holy books and paste them at each other, but that's not going to get you anywhere.

What a typical biased European perversion of religious beliefs. It belies an underlying ignorance of the religions referenced. This isn't about picking up religious texts and picking the most distressing of passages. This is about the reality of a way of life. You make reference to a jewish prayer to justify your position. The difference between Judaism and some other religions is that seeking converts, preaching the gospel to non adherents and forced conversion is forbidden. The prayers quoted are what Jews say. That is their view. Big deal. No Jew comes to my door and says believe it or die. No jew anytime soon is going to walk into a Pattani market and go kaboom (not unless he ate some bad som tam.) When people try to convert to judaism, one of the roles of the rabbi(s) is to convince the person not to convert and to keep asking why. This is to ensure that people accept the faith because they have thought about it. That is not how Islam works in the world today. One can argue all about the Crusades centuries ago, but the fact of the matter is that this is 2011 and Christians do not go about killing non believers or those that leave the faith. The fact of the matter is that Buddhism is a welcoming belief system that has the ability accept other faiths. How many Jews or Christians make it a way of life to desecrate Buddhist sanctuaries? In Islam there can be no acceptance of Buddhists because the Buddhists are non believers, they are idol worshippers. This is the unpleasant reality.

Why are the Buddhists expected to reach out to the muslims? Just by starting at that point, one is saying that the Buddhists are in the wrong. How about the muslims reach out to the Buddhists? Why is it always the fault of everyone except muslims? Yes, there are ongoing visits from Iranians, and Arabs that have great fun in Pattaya and Phuket. However, if anyone has ever bothered to read the relevant koran passages, this is acceptable. One can be a false friend of the infidel as long as one acts in the long term to remove him. Sadly, this is what westerners don't get. The lying and deceit is acceptable to these people because it is not a lie or a deceit in their eyes. It is permitted and allowed so long as the infidels are disposed of. A true believer of Islam cannot accept Buddhists since Islam is an absolute religion. There are absolute edicts given as to the disposal of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. This is what Europeans just don't get. They want to believe that if they reach out and make nice, all will be well. That cannot happen. The best one can hope for is coexistence. Remember this;. Ishaq: 327 - Allah said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.