More Substance Needed In Reaching Out To Thai Muslims

[jayjay0]

I'm certainly no expert on Islam. But I have had some experiences with Muslim people that have helped me form my own personal views. Before retirement, I was a school principal just outside of Washington, D.C. We had a small contingent of Muslims each year in our school, from a variety of "Muslim nations", ranging from Malaysia (these were always people who worked at the embassy; the embassy owned several houses within our boundaries, where their personnel and their families lived)...to various "Middle Eastern" nations. We had a teacher who was Muslim and who had been fired from a fairly well-known Saudi-affiliated school in the D.C. area, and one that on occasion was in the news...and she had her own stories to tell. And, my son was adopted, and Pakistani, and he and I had many talks about Islam (he has now returned to Pakistan and opened a business in Islamabad). As a result of these liaisons, I've been invited to any number of post-Ramadan parties, and once to a huge (as in 150 or more people) party for Pakistani families in northern Virginia.

As I learned from my many interactions over 20+ years, it takes all types in the Muslim world, just as in the Christian world. I can understand forum member Elshaheen's frustrations in some of the postings here. But on the other hand, Elshaheen, let me tell you a couple of things that I learned from my son's adult Muslim friends. President George Bush -- actually both of them -- are secretly Jewish. It has been proven definitively that the 9/11 hijackers were all hired by the Bush administration to perpetrate their crimes so that the U.S. could militarily attack a variety of Muslim countries. And, while not all of the Muslims I met thought the Bushes were secretly Jewish, the VAST MAJORITY that I met all were anxious to tell me about "their truth" about the 9/11 hijackers, and at the end of dozens of such conversations to ask me, "Don't you agree?"

I can understand when people say that Americans aren't always open-minded or, for that matter, well-educated about the world. We have an attitude. No question about it. But, as a people, we are rather...hmmmmm...fair about things. One of my friends is a Jew...a school counselor. On 9/12 he visited the Islamic mosque in Falls Church, Virginia to meet with any Muslims who would talk to him to assure them that Americans didn't blame all Muslims for what had happened 24 hours earlier. There's a sharp debate about building the mosque at Ground Zero -- and that seems pretty understandable to me -- but for the most part, Americans believe that the Muslims have a RIGHT to build a mosque there, but also that it's an unwise and in-your-face plan that it is poor taste.

Personally, when I visited southern Thailand for 3 weeks just before the real problems once again broke out down there, I found quite a bit of rudeness on the part of Muslim shopkeepers and remember vividly that I was told I was not welcome to visit one mosque (although they said I could donate money!!!), and was told by Muslims not to go to one Muslim village because I was an American and I would not be safe. On the other hand, all my son's friends (and I am talking about adults) back in America were more than kind and friendly to me.

So, my point here is NOT that Americans are good and Muslims are bad, but rather than there are quite a few on each side who are...well, let's say narrow-minded. I'll leave others to decide what the balance is.

Well I certainly have to agree with you on there are all kinds in all religions.

The one thing that you have omitted is that in Islam there is a portion who believe that Islam gives them the rite to terrorize the world. dave_boo posted some of them.

What other religion has a bible or what ever it is called that OKs that. Even in the height of the problems in Ireland no one stood there saying we are rite it says so here in the Bible.

Did your Muslim friends in America blame 9/11 on Bush? It is understandable that a country that is in full suport of Islam would make those alagations. Is that what every one in Iceland, Germany, Finland and Germany is saying. I think not. For me to go to a Islamic country and not here that would be surprising. I have asked myself what other atrocities against mankind has Bin Laden claimed. Answer none. Why becouse he does not need false fame. He claims only what he did.

You talk about all your son's friends are adult back in America. So What Bin Laden and many of the terrorist leaders are adults using other adults and kids to do there bidding.

I walked into a bar for dinner the other night (when it comes to alcohol I am a real die hard Muslim) The BBC was on and they had been discussing was religion a positive influence in the world. The results from a pole was.

Yes 32%

No 78%

My thought was that is a no brainier no it is not. Now if the question had been can it be a positive influence on the world it would for me have been a resounding YES As you have said there are many fine people in all religions only most of them are like me. Unwilling to look at the faults of there own religion and stand up and say so. We just accept it and go on our merry way.

I found the opening line of the article interesting. Why is Islam the only religion in the world we have to make concessions to over and beyond what all other religions all ready receive.

In all seriousness I thank you for your view on the subject.

Beyond funding an academic event, efforts must be made to take Islam more seriously

Edited January 3, 2011 by jayjay0

[geriatrickid]

Makes the following statement;

If a Southern Muslim village is a wholesome community, well-led by the Imam and his lay advisors, why would the villagers welcome the central government authorities with their history of Siamification, chauvinism and contempt for Malay culture, Malay languages and Islam? Would a Malay fisherman or farmer in Pattani prefer to live in a village where drunkenness is unknown, families are strong, women and girls are protected (and encouraged to do well), and people are generally honest and responsible, or, on the other hand, to live in a village, say in the Northeast, where drunkenness is a feature, violence is frequent and morale is low?

This statement is typical of the western condescension that belittles and insults Thailand. You make quite a condition with if a Wholesome community is well led by the Imam and his lay advisers. Right. why would a muslim have the corner on good government and administration in Thailand? Please identify a muslim community in Thailand where alcoholism is unknown. Do you not realize that domestic abuse is often higher in the more religious muslim communities than others? That is because the Imam will tell the woman to go home and to obey her husband. The woman is common chattel for those in a religious community. I counter your sanctimonious portrayal of non muslim Thais by stating that the Buddhist culture has acted to blunt the harsh aspects of Islam in Thailand. It is the Buddhist views that have encouraged Thai muslims to be more accepting of their neighbours and to co-exist. Many Thai muslims practice a form of the religion that is not considered appropriate by the leaders of religion in Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia or the UAE. These are the countries that have been identified as funding sources for the southern insurgency. You are demonstrate the compete and absolute ignorance of westerners that seek to counter the negative aspects of some parts of muslim communities by resorting to a gross exaggeration. I can assure you that the muslim communities of Thailand have their share of child abuse, drug abuse, domestic violence, alcohol abuse and crime as do non muslim communities.

[jayjay0]

Here in Chiang Mai it is not a uncommon sight to see a Muslim women dressed in black from head to toe and wearing a veil walking down the street with her Muslim husband dressed in light cotton and shorts in 40 degree heat. for those of you on the old scale that is over 100 degrees. In my book a religion that promotes that kind of treatment of women is not worth a dam_n.

The moderator suggested we ask questions. Here is one.

Is it true that the founder of this religion that treats women as lesser beings At one time worked for his wife? She was the boss.

The following I make no claim for it's accuracy just some food for thought.

Nature of the Islam

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam:

The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components. Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works:

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0..6%

Australia -- Muslim 1.5%

Canada -- Muslim 1.9%

China -- Muslim 1.8%

Italy -- Muslim 1.5%

Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.

This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%

Germany -- Muslim 3.7%

United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%

Spain -- Muslim 4%

Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%

Philippines -- 5%

Sweden -- Muslim 5%

Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%

The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%

India -- Muslim 13.4%

Israel -- Muslim 16%

Kenya -- Muslim 10%

Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%

Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of nonbelievers of all other religions (including nonconforming

Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%

Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%

Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%

Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is ongoing in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%

Egypt -- Muslim 90%

Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%

Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%

Iran -- Muslim 98%

Iraq -- Muslim 97%

Jordan -- Muslim 92%

Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%

Pakistan -- Muslim 97%

Palestine -- Muslim 99%

Syria -- Muslim 90%

Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a

Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%

Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%

Somalia -- Muslim 100%

Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. --

Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers.. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

Well, boys and girls, today we are letting the fox guard the hen house. The wolves will be herding the sheep!

Obama Appoints two devout Muslims to homeland security posts. Doesn't this make you feel safer already?

Obama and Janet Napolitano Appoint Arif Alikhan, a devout Muslim as Assistant Secretary for Policy Development

DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano swore-in Kareem Shora, a devout Muslim, who was born in Damascus, Syria as ADC National Executive Director as a member of the Homeland Security Advisory Council (HSAC).

NOTE: Has anyone ever heard a new government official being identified as a devout Catholic, a devout Jew or a devout Protestant...? Just wondering.

Devout Muslims being appointed to critical Homeland Security positions? Doesn't this make you feel safer already??

That should make our homeland much safer, huh!!

Was it not "Devout Muslim men" that flew planes into U.S. buildings 8 years ago? Was it not a Devout Muslim who killed 13 at Fort Hood?

Please forward this important information to any who care about the future of our Country.

[Xangsamhua]

Makes the following statement;

If a Southern Muslim village is a wholesome community, well-led by the Imam and his lay advisors, why would the villagers welcome the central government authorities with their history of Siamification, chauvinism and contempt for Malay culture, Malay languages and Islam? Would a Malay fisherman or farmer in Pattani prefer to live in a village where drunkenness is unknown, families are strong, women and girls are protected (and encouraged to do well), and people are generally honest and responsible, or, on the other hand, to live in a village, say in the Northeast, where drunkenness is a feature, violence is frequent and morale is low?

This statement is typical of the western condescension that belittles and insults Thailand. You make quite a condition with if a Wholesome community is well led by the Imam and his lay advisers. Right. why would a muslim have the corner on good government and administration in Thailand? Please identify a muslim community in Thailand where alcoholism is unknown. Do you not realize that domestic abuse is often higher in the more religious muslim communities than others? That is because the Imam will tell the woman to go home and to obey her husband. The woman is common chattel for those in a religious community. I counter your sanctimonious portrayal of non muslim Thais by stating that the Buddhist culture has acted to blunt the harsh aspects of Islam in Thailand. It is the Buddhist views that have encouraged Thai muslims to be more accepting of their neighbours and to co-exist. Many Thai muslims practice a form of the religion that is not considered appropriate by the leaders of religion in Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia or the UAE. These are the countries that have been identified as funding sources for the southern insurgency. You are demonstrate the compete and absolute ignorance of westerners that seek to counter the negative aspects of some parts of muslim communities by resorting to a gross exaggeration. I can assure you that the muslim communities of Thailand have their share of child abuse, drug abuse, domestic violence, alcohol abuse and crime as do non muslim communities.

Bit of a rant, GK. I'm not going to take it up; I don't have the data (or the passion). I have particular communities and particular people in mind, not a general overview. Maybe they're not typical; maybe they are. All I was suggesting is that we could take a worm's eye view as well as a bird's eye one. I've already stated my general view of Islam "as a liberal Western outsider".

Ibrahim Syukri's "History of the Malay Kingdom of Patani" is an interesting read from a Malay perspective, written around 1950. It was suppressed in both Thailand and Malaysia until recently. To quote from David Wyatt's foreword: "It clearly was written under the force of the passions unleashed as postwar Thai governments began aggressively to apply to the Malays the policies for cultural, linguistic, educational, and legal assimilation designed perhaps initially to compel the assimilation of Thailand's large Chinese minority." (p. x)

[cdnvic]

The topic here is engaging with Thai Muslims. Off topic posts and scriptural nitpicking will be deleted.

[cdnvic]

As promised, off-topic posts have been removed. The topic is about southern Thailand's problems, not a general debate on religion.