Charles Schwab Debit Card/Checking/Brokerage Acct

[SurfRider]

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I would caution all Expats using the Schwab Debit Cards to consider the cost to Schwab to reimburse the fees incurred on each of your transactions.

As we all know, AEON ATMs are best, because Schwab pays only the 1% ATM network fee for each of those transactions because the 150 Baht That ATM usury fee is not charged..

If you use another Thai ATM that charges the Thai150 Baht ATM fee, the cost to Schwab is *MUCH* different, depending on how many Baht you take out on one transaction.

If you take only 1000 Baht on one pull from a non-AEON ATM, Schwab is incurring a 16% cost on that transaction.

If you take 5000 Baht on one pull, Schwab is paying 4% to process that transaction.

If you take 10,000 on one pull, Schwab's cost drops to 2.5%

A 20,000 pull costs Schwab 1.75%

The aggregate amount of all funds that Schwab has on deposit in the accounts of Debit Card holders is invested. The yield from those investments is what is paying for the fees that Schwab reimburses to each card-holder.

It's completely unreasonable to assume that Schwab is realizing anywhere near a 16% gain on their investment-- but that's what the Expat who pulls only 1000 Baht from a fee-based-ATM is costing them. Their investment yield is more likely in the 5% area, so anyone pulling less than 5000 Baht in one transaction is costing them more money than they're making. Not a good business model!

Possibly hundreds or thousands of Thai Expats have signed up over the past year to jump on the Schwab fee reimbursement gravy-train. So, my suggestion would be-- if you MUST use a non-AEON ATM, take as much cash on one pull as you possibly can afford, to avoid this cash-cow from coming to the attention of the pencil-pushers at Schwab who have the job of reducing the cost of doing business.

Since we live in the country that has the highest ATM fees in the world, it's the least we can do to keep the gravy-train on the track as long as possible . . .

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Edited February 11, 2011 by SurfRider

[JimGant]

...the card each of us (the wife and I) got works on the checking and savings accounts per the document the card was attached to.

Interesting. For ATM withdrawals, your pick of "current" or "savings" would, logically, tell your ATM/Debit card which account to tap.

For 'swipe and sign' transactions, however, there's no way to assign an account. However, I've never heard of a debit card for a savings account, because of the '6 transactions per accounting period' restriction. So I would assume your new card, for POS transactions, defers to your checking account....

But it does conjure up that old "thermos being the greatest ever invention" joke....... But how do it know?

[jfchandler]

I've had debit cards before that were linked to more than one account with a particular bank...though I don't have any experience with Schwab about that.

In those cases with other banks, in my experience, usually the Visa or MC logo debit card is linked to your checking account. But when using an ATM, you have the option to choose savings vs. checking, or move money between the two, and other such things... For POS, the funds would come out of the default account, usually checking.

[jgm005]

A Thank You to all for the valuable information within this thread. As one who has a Capital One ATM card that no longer works in AEON machines I have been looking for an alternative. I am giving up the use of the Capital One ATM (non branded ATM) for several reasons. One being due to their switch to CIRRUS and not being able to be use within AEON ATMs and now the frequent 'Invalid Transaction' messages that come and go on other ATMs. Thanks to all

[Pib]

...the card each of us (the wife and I) got works on the checking and savings accounts per the document the card was attached to.

Interesting. For ATM withdrawals, your pick of "current" or "savings" would, logically, tell your ATM/Debit card which account to tap.

For 'swipe and sign' transactions, however, there's no way to assign an account. However, I've never heard of a debit card for a savings account, because of the '6 transactions per accounting period' restriction. So I would assume your new card, for POS transactions, defers to your checking account....

But it does conjure up that old "thermos being the greatest ever invention" joke....... But how do it know?

Yes, it does defer to the checking account. The Schwab booklet which comes with the debit card says it will default to first draw funds from the checking account and if there are not enough funds in the checking account it will then draw from the savings account. Sounds kinda like an overdraft prevention setup, but it's not, it's just the way the card is setup to utilize both accounts if required. I expect the booklet also warns you about the more than 6 withdrawals from a savings account issue also...I just didn't read the booklet that indepth. I'll be keeping the checking account funded with enough funds to avoid the card from using the Savings account.

I used the debit card to make a cash withdrawal of 7000 baht around 10am this morning from an AEON ATM. After entering my PIN the ATM went to the quick cash screen and I pushed the 7000 baht icon, and then the machine just said get your cash, your receipt, and remove your card. Bamm!!!...I'm Done. Now if I had wanted an amount not available on the quick cash screen and went on to the next withdrawal screen to enter the specific amount I wanted, it may have offered me a choice of picking Checking Acct or Savings Acct. If my Chang beer impaired brain remembers, I'll try that on the next withdrawal.

When checking my Schwab online account, the dollar amount hitting my account calculated to a 30.76 baht to USD exchange rate; when checking the Bangkok Bank exchange rate webpage the TT rate in effect up until 1:30pm today was 30.68 (it changed to 30.73 at 1:30pm for the rest of the day). So, I got a better exchange rate using the card to get cash than the TT Buying Rate...a better rate than if I had ACHed/SWIFTed the money over and with no associated receiving bank fees to effectively lower the TT rate. I'll be using my Schwab card a lot more to get more bang for my buck....and I will only use the card on an AEON ATM or other bank ATM which does not charge the 150 fee as I don't want to abuse this great card benefit....hopefully, other TV members with Schwab cards will do the same and not screw the golden goose.

Also, just as FYI, USAA reimbursed me for the 150 baht fee ATM withdrawal from the Bangkok Bank ATM I made about a month ago as a test of the USAA debit card. I did email them via online account secure email with a copy of the receipt. The reimbursement showed up on my early Feb statement. Without the email and receipt, I would have probably never got reimbursed due to how the withdrawal coding did not breakout the fee separate from the amount withdrawn as discussed in another topic. Of course, the associated 1% foreign transaction fee don't get reimbursed, but as mentioned, it was only a one time test withdrawal to make sure the USAA debit card was 100% functional...the USAA debit card is now living in my safe and the Schwab debit card has a home in my wallet. I'm liking the Schwab accounts more each day and the couple of calls I have made to Schwab customer service have been greeted with very helpful CSRs equal to the calls I have made to USAA CSRs...and Schwab customer service is open a much wider range of days/hours...pretty much 24/7 based on two calls I made to Schwab at "their" O-dark-early hours on "their" Saturday and Sunday still dark morning hours...I wasn't expecting anyone to answer but they did and answered my questions...although the answer to one of my questions required me to call back to a certain Schwab Department at 9am EST Monday-Saturday "their" time to resolve the problem....I called back as requested...problem resolved.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Pib

[Pib]

A Thank You to all for the valuable information within this thread. As one who has a Capital One ATM card that no longer works in AEON machines I have been looking for an alternative. I am giving up the use of the Capital One ATM (non branded ATM) for several reasons. One being due to their switch to CIRRUS and not being able to be use within AEON ATMs and now the frequent 'Invalid Transaction' messages that come and go on other ATMs. Thanks to all

Switching to a Cap One Checking or Savings account that provides a "debit" card vs an ATM card should fix the issue regarding ATM withdrawals since debit cards usually work on a wider range of networks.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Pib

[SurfRider]

.

"if I had wanted an amount not available on the quick cash screen and went on to the next withdrawal screen to enter the specific amount I wanted, it may have offered me a choice of picking Checking Acct or Savings Acct."

Yes, if you drill down through a few more menus on the AEON ATM, it will do exactly that and also allow you to specify whatever amount you want - be careful, because it registers two-digit decimal amounts, which most other ATMs do not-- so be sure you've entered the correct figure before you commit to the transaction. It's easy to think your asking for 30000 Baht, when you've only entered 300.00 because of the decimal issue.

AEON will allow you to withdraw up to 40,000 Baht in one transaction, but most banks that host your card will not permit that much in one 24 hour period -- Schwab limits their Debit Cards to US$1000 per day, so the best you'll do at an AEON is 30,000 Baht in one pull, given the current exchange rate.

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[jfchandler]

Re getting a Cap One credit card logo debit card, that may or may not be possible, depending on where one's residence address is located...

For opening accounts online, the Cap One Rewards Money Market account comes with a straight ATM card, but it's now the Cirrus variety that doesn't work with AEON ATMs.

They also have an Online Savings account that can be opened online, but it comes with no bank card period.

Then, if you have a residence address in an area where Cap One has physical branches, they won't let you open a checking account online that does come with a MC logo debit card, which should work in AEON ATMs....and instead will point you to one of their branches. The states were Cap One has physical branches are Connecticut, District of Columbia, Delaware, Louisiana, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Texas and Virginia.

If you have a residence address in any other state, then you should be able to open an online checking account with an AEON friendly debit card.

The best option seems to be the Interest Online Checking Account, which comes with a MC logo debit card, no foreign currency fee, and up to $10 per month in reimbursements for other banks' ATM charges.

Edited February 12, 2011 by jfchandler

[Pib]

If a person already has a Cap One banking checking and/or savings account they may be able to switch to a different account through a simple call since they are already a Cap One banking member...and this should result in getting any new/additional card associated with the new account such as debit card. I say this because over the years, to include within the last month with USAA, I was able to switch to another banking product by a call or visit without filling out any additional paperwork....the USAA change to a different savings account paying higher interest only required a call...I was switched to the higher paying savings program with the same account number during the call. Not saying a simple call or visit with no additional paperwork will work in every situation, but having your foot already the door can sometimes make a difference. May be worth a call to Cap One to see what they say....getting their debit card with no foreign transaction fee and hopefully reimbursement of worldwide ATM fees would be a good thing....and also hopefully, their debit card will work in AEON ATMs which apparently don't subscribe to the CIRRUS network. I know, I used several should's, hopefully's, may's etc., in this post, but some things are vague or unknown until someone attempts running the obstacle course which may turn out to easier than expected. .

[jfchandler]

Yes Pib....I'd agree, there's a likelihood of that, if someone is already an existing Cap One customer, and wants to shift to a different kind of account.... Though, since they don't open checking accounts online for people from those certain states, it also may not work if a person happens to have a residence address from one of those states....I'd be interested to hear the outcome from anyone who tries.

[dingdongrb]

I use Schwab and am very happy with it. All ATM fees are refunded at the end of the month. I think they do that because they don't have branches/ATMs all over the place.

No pesky foreign transaction fee either.

Problem is I don't have 30K+ posts on ThaiVisa, so I'm sure some smug know-it-all with nothing better to do will tell you they have a better way. So just ignore me, I've only been to 40+ countries.

<Ignored>

[Langsuan Man]

Since I was burned by the Cap One change from the Plus Network to The Cirrus Network has anyone verified jfchandler's post concerning Cap One, Master Card logo Debit Cards, working at AEON ATM's ?

The best option seems to be the Interest Online Checking Account, which comes with a MC logo debit card, no foreign currency fee, and up to $10 per month in reimbursements for other banks' ATM charges.

More specifically if the $10 reimbursement for other bank's ATM Charges applies to foreign ATM's? (which would still limit you to fee free withdrawal of only $2,000 USD per month)

[jgm005]

I would try the switch but I have had my fill of Capital One. Least on the Banking side. Plus $10 refund of ATM charges is only two pulls on a Non AEON Machine. And where we live the closest AEON ATM is in Khon Kaen. A two hour round trip drive from Kutdu, Nongbulamphu.

The Capital One Visa Rewards Credit Card is great with none of that 1% or more transaction charge. And they are constantly on the check for fraud.

State Farm (USA Insurance company) has a banking side and reimbursement of foreign ATM fees. Since I have insurance through them I am looking at that as an option along with Schwab.

Yes Pib....I'd agree, there's a likelihood of that, if someone is already an existing Cap One customer, and wants to shift to a different kind of account.... Though, since they don't open checking accounts online for people from those certain states, it also may not work if a person happens to have a residence address from one of those states....I'd be interested to hear the outcome from anyone who tries.

[jfchandler]

I can't tell from State Farm Bank's web site how they handle the 1% card network fee for foreign transactions...so I'm assuming they don't absorb/reimburse it.

Also, there's no mention of the bank charging a foreign currency fee of its own on foreign transactions, so I'm assuming they don't.

And indeed, the Flyer Guide says State Farm's debit card has no foreign currency fee on ATM withdrawals or POS purchases. But watch out, because the guide says SF's credit card has a 3% foreign currency fee.

http://www.statefarm...le-deposits.asp

Business Accounts

State Farm Bank will not charge You for the use of ATMs not owned by the Bank (considered foreign ATMs). Further, the Bank will rebate a foreign ATM surcharge imposed by the ATM owner in any amount assessed against a State Farm Bank Checking, Interest Checking, or Money Market Account provided that there is a direct deposit via an Automated Clearing House (ACH) credit into that account during the statement cycle of the foreign ATM transaction.

If there has been no direct deposit via an ACH credit into the State Farm Bank Checking, Interest Checking, or Money Market Account during the statement cycle, the Bank will rebate up to a total of $10 in foreign ATM surcharges per account per statement cycle. State Farm Bank Savings Accounts will be rebated up to a total of $10 in foreign ATM surcharges per account per statement cycle.

http://www.statefarm...ng/checking.asp

Checking Accounts

This non-interest-bearing account offers generous ATM fee rebates, free online banking and bill payment, as well as overdraft protection. The minimum account balance requirement of $100 is waived if the account receives a direct deposit via an Automated Clearing House (ACH) credit during the statement cycle.

Interest Checking Accounts

This account offers everything you get with a regular checking account, plus you earn a competitive interest rate when you have an account balance of at least $2,500. The minimum account balance requirement of $500 is waived if the account receives a direct deposit via an Automated Clearing House (ACH) credit during the statement cycle.

Convenient Visa® CheckCard

& ATM Access

Make purchases anywhere Visa® is accepted with your Visa® CheckCard. Access your accounts at any ATM that displays the NYCE®, PLUS®, PULSE®, or STAR® logo. State Farm Bank® will not charge for the use of ATMs not owned by us. Plus, we will refund the surcharges from ATMs not owned by us based on our Pricing Schedule

Edited February 13, 2011 by jfchandler

[Pib]

I would try the switch but I have had my fill of Capital One. Least on the Banking side. Plus $10 refund of ATM charges is only two pulls on a Non AEON Machine. And where we live the closest AEON ATM is in Khon Kaen. A two hour round trip drive from Kutdu, Nongbulamphu.

I know what you mean about the availability of AEON ATMs in many areas...I live in western Bangkok and there is an AEON ATM in a Lotus store about 15 minutes away, but other than that AEON I'm now looking at doing around a 20-30 minute drive (one way) to get to the next AEON ATM...AEONs are numerous in highrise/central Bangkok and other high population farang areas, but get out of those areas and AEON ATMs get scarce. It would be nice if AEON ATMs were on every soi corner and in every mall/market like Thai bank ATMs, but unfortunately, AEON ATMs are rather scarce when considering Thailand as a whole.

[jfchandler]

By the way, in the Flyer Guide document, I noticed mention of a recent change regarding Bank of the Internet, which doesn't charge any foreign currency fee on its debit cards.... But now, they are excluding foreign ATM charges from their ATM reimbursement policy, at least for new accounts....

Not clear if the change also affects their existing accounts....since they have a whole section about "grandfathered" accounts.

ATM Fees Reimbursed Up to $8 Per Month (excludes international ATM transactions)

http://www.bankofinternet.com/Fee-Schedule.aspx

[Pib]

Regarding State Farm Banking reimbursing ATM fees, from poking around their site it appears they will reimburse ATM fees on "Business Accounts" but for regular consumer accounts it's unclear "to me" if they would reimburse ATM fees as generously. Maybe they do, it's just the reimbursement info I read was listed under a bullet titled Business Accounts which makes me think it only applies to business accounts...but at the same time it said it applied to all checking and savings acounts...seemed to be a little contradictory to me. Maybe I was just reading it wrong or couldn't find the right webpage for Consumer Accounts if there are separate pages/disclosures.

Regarding the foreign transaction fee (different than the separate ATM withdrawal fee), I did find in one of their "business" debit card disclosures by doing a search for "foreign transaction" that a 1% fee is charged. And maybe a consumer debit card would be different. See below for cut and paste:

"International Transaction Fee Finance Charges: If you or a Designated Employee use a Card to make an international transaction, we will charge your Account an International Transaction fee FINANCE CHARGE equal to 1% of the U.S. dollar amount of the transaction. An international transaction is defined as any transaction that was acquired in any country other than the United States."

And when doing that same word search regarding their credit cards like their Platinum Visa Credit Card it clearly shows a 3% foreign transaction fee.

http://www.statefarm.com/bank/aboutbank/disclosures/platinum-disclosures.asp

I've found that if a bank's credit card cards charge a certain foreign transaction fee of say 3% just for example, then their debit cards charge the same percentage.

I think I would recommend to anyone considering signing up for State Farm Banking that they verify what the ATM fee reimbursement policy is and what the foreign transaction fee is for a regular "consumer" account. And even if I called one of their customer reps who gave me certain info over the phone, I would ask them where can I view the info online/in writing as disclosures/fee structures are suppose to be clear and easily available. What's in writing counts; what a customer rep mistakenly tells you is just a mistake that usually ends up working against you/costing you money with an apology from the next customer rep that you angerly call who gives you the correct info.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Pib

[jgm005]

I whole heartedly agree with your comment to see it in writing. Which I will do before I leap off the cliff in signing up them. I have had back and forth emails with my State Farm agent and State Farm customer service. Below, just for informational purposes, is what State Farm said in my questions I presented to them.

"Thank you for contacting State Farm Bank®.

Our ATM card is not affiliated with any other bank, Our Check Card is affiliated with VISA. The difference between the two cards is where the ATM Card can only be used at ATMs the VISA Check Card can be used at both ATMs and to make point of sale transactions.

Our system should automatically refund any ATM surcharges assessed to your account at the the end of your monthly statement cycle. However, sometimes in foreign countries, because of the conversion, our system doesn't pick up the surcharge. If that is the case we would be able to refund any surcharge assessed as long as you save your receipts showing the ATM surcharges.

State Farm Bank does not charge a currency exchange fee and customers will receive rate established by VISA when they use their Visa CheckCard abroad."

Thanks to all for their feedback. Schwab still seems the way for me but I'll find more out on State Farm when I get back to the States in a few weeks.

snipped ...

And even if I called one of their customer reps who gave me certain info over the phone, I would ask them where can I view the info online/in writing as disclosures/fee structures are suppose to be clear and easily available. What's in writing counts; what a customer rep mistakenly tells you is just a mistake that usually ends up working against you/costing you money with an apology from the next customer rep that you angerly call who gives you the correct info.[/left]

[Pib]

State Farm Bank does not charge a currency exchange fee and customers will receive rate established by VISA when they use their Visa CheckCard abroad."

Thanks to all for their feedback. Schwab still seems the way for me but I'll find more out on State Farm when I get back to the States in a few weeks.

There may be a difference between a "currency exchange fee" and a "foreign transaction fee". Take a look at this State Farm's disclosure at below link where they talk "Transactions Made in Foreign Currencies" where they basically say they let Visa determine the exchange rate and it don't mention any fee, however, but, continue on reading to where they talk "International Transaction Fee Finance Charge" and they say there is a 1% fee on any transaction made in a foreign country. http://www.statefarm...sm_business.pdf

I think State Farm's reply was relating to their Currency Exchange Fee policy and not their Foreign Transaction Fee policy. It don't look like State Farm eats/absorbs the standard Visa/Mastercard 1% foreign transaction fee....that killer fee we talk about so much on ThaiVisa which effectively results in an exchange rate 1 to 3% lower because of the fee....anything above 1% is the bank raising the fee for its own profit. The Visa Exchange Rate webpage even has an entry for the person to enter the bank fee (0 to 5%) for a foreign transaction to get the actual exchange rate to be given when adding in the Visa foreign transaction fee that may be applied immediately during the transaction or in a separate charge to hit your bank account along with the actual POS/ATM transaction. And when entering the bank fee a person needs to know if the bank eats/absorbs the Visa 1% and don't pass it along to you...if the bank does not absorb/eat the fee and also does not apply any addition transaction fee, then a person would enter just 1% in the bank fee block. http://usa.visa.com/...ex_rates_us.jsp

Yeap, check out those State Farm folks closely and be sure when asking an Apples-related question they give you an Apples-related answer versus an Oranges-related answer, whether the possible mis-answer was unintentional or intentional for whatever reason. IMHO, most banks are just too fee-oriented nowdays...getting more fee-oriented everyday....and ain't high on my list of companies providing open and clear disclosures of their products...too much fine print and weasel talk. Good luck and have a good trip back to the States.

[jfchandler]

I agree that State Farm Bank's web site is unclear, particularly the section headlined about "Business" accounts and then appearing to talk about all their accounts. And I likewise agree it's better to rely on the info on a bank's official web site vs. verbal or email advice given by an individual CSR, which often proves to be wrong.

However, the weight of the evidence at present certainly suggests that State Farm Bank, unlike many of the major banks, doesn't charge its own foreign currency fee on debit card use by regular consumers. Likewise, it certainly seems that the bank does charge the 1% VISA card network fee, often referred to as an "International Transaction" fee by various banks.

Assuming those two details are correct, combined with State Farm's other banks ATM refunds policy, it would make their bank accounts one of the better available to expats....though certainly not the best at present...by virtue of their charging the 1% card network fee that others like Schwab and Cap One do not.

I think a lot depends on whether the individual account holder has ready access to AEON ATMs... If so, and the 150 baht fee is not an issue, then having a bank that doesn't charge the 1% card network fee is a primary concern. On the other hand, if someone doesn't have ready access to AEON ATMs, then having a bank that fully reimburses foreign bank ATM charges might well be a bigger issue than the 1% card network fee... It all depends on the individual user.

[Pib]

I've found that if a bank's credit card cards charge a certain foreign transaction fee of say 3% just for example, then their debit cards charge the same percentage.

But regarding my above statement I could be wrong in saying State Farm's debit card will charge a foreign transaction fee that equals their credit card foreign transaction fee. Based on the following flyerguide.com link which I have used before in other posts and which I think provides a good snapshot of US banks Debit/Credit Cards foreign transaction fees for ATM withdrawals and POS, the link says no foreign transaction fee for State Farm's Debit card but a 3% fee for State Farm's Credit card. http://www.flyerguid...oreign_Exchange

Just be sure to confirm with State Farm as their disclosure/fee documents are somewhat vague/confusing in several areas, at least to me they are.

[jfchandler]

Pib, I did cite that FlyerGuide source in one of my prior posts here on State Farm Bank....

And indeed, the Flyer Guide says State Farm's debit card has no foreign currency fee on ATM withdrawals or POS purchases. But watch out, because the guide says SF's credit card has a 3% foreign currency fee.

[jfchandler]

A bit more about Capital One, and their new ATM card on the Cirrus only network...

The good news is, I was able to make an ATM withdrawal using the Cap One ATM card with no problem and no 150 baht ATM fee at the CitiBank branch at the Interchange Tower, corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit roads. (On this occasion, I didn't have the time/opportunity to try the card first at an AEON ATM, although I'm presuming it wouldn't have worked there anyway).

The not so good news is, the w/d didn't produce a particularly good exchange rate... As I've mentioned before, as best as I could tell, the CitiBank ATMs, despite not charging the 150 baht withdrawal fee, never have produced quite as good exchange rates as the AEON ones using the same cards at both -- the reason for that, I don't know. Now, add to that mix the Cap One card that now goes over the Cirrus network, which being related to MasterCard, historically has never seemed to produce as good a rate as its VISA counterparts...

So for my 1000 baht test withdrawal on the afternoon of Feb. 15.

--final charge to my Cap One account: $32.82

--final exchange rate produced: 30.47

Comparisons for that day:

--BOT IER: 30.70

--XRates: 30.71

--BKK Bank buying TT: 30.56

Now, it's a bit dangerous to make conclusions based on the results for a single day. But the results above (the spread among the comparisons) are definitely worse than what I would have expected in the past when Cap One had its ATM card on the PLUS (VISA) network. And it was particularly disheartening to end up with a rate that was less than the day's buying TT rate at BKK Bank, which almost never happened in the past.

Suffice to say, for the time being, I'm reconfiguring things a bit to use the Cap One account more for paying U.S. bills, and handling ATM cash needs with other VISA logo cards thru AEON.

[jgm005]

I have kept on trying my Capital One at AEON Machines (Paragon, Khon Kaen, Udon Thani) and it does not work. Same 'invalid transaction' message. I am glad you had luck at Citibank for I have not so far with my Capital One ATM. Same message as above. In using another ATM card at Citibank I noticed the exchange rate difference (being less). I do not get into the details as you do (I should) and the difference was so close to the 150bt fee. I am going to try the Capital One ATM one more time in Citibank when I get into BKK Friday and see what happens.

A bit more about Capital One, and their new ATM card on the Cirrus only network...

The good news is, I was able to make an ATM withdrawal using the Cap One ATM card with no problem and no 150 baht ATM fee at the CitiBank branch at the Interchange Tower, corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit roads. (On this occasion, I didn't have the time/opportunity to try the card first at an AEON ATM, although I'm presuming it wouldn't have worked there anyway).

SNIPPED ...

The not so good news is, the w/d didn't produce a particularly good exchange rate...

Suffice to say, for the time being, I'm reconfiguring things a bit to use the Cap One account more for paying U.S. bills, and handling ATM cash needs with other VISA logo cards thru AEON.

[jfchandler]

JGM, the Cap One ATM card in its new Cirrus version definitely will work at the CitiBank ATMs in BKK at Asoke and Sukhumvit roads...no question about it... Unfortunately, CitiBank only has those ATMs at one location in all of Thailand, so their accessibility is limited.

Also, I don't want to give folks the wrong idea... The actual exchange rate I got was just a bit under the buying TT rate for the day, with no fees at all, so that's not such a bad thing...

However, I'm accustomed to doing better and expecting more... So while CitiBank is an OK deal if one has to use a Cirrus only card, there are still better deals to be had via AEON ATMs and other (VISA-PLUS) network debit/ATM cards for folks who have them....

[Pib]

This morning/17Feb/9:10am, I went to the Visa and Mastercard currency exchange webpages to check what Visa and Mastercard was quoting for a Dollar/Baht exchange rate (note: both Visa and Mastercard were showing a 16 Feb date since they are 12 hours behind Thailand time based on US EST but it's the same point). The exchange rates reflected were:

MasterCard : 30.4456

Visa: 30.734709

Note: above calculates to a 1% exchange rate difference between Mastercard and Visa, with Mastercard providing the lower rate which is in-line with JFC's post above. Here's the Mastercard and Visa currency exchange websites. The Mastercard site can be kinda picky sometimes to load...you may need to click the page reload icon on your browser a few times to get the page to come up.

https://www.masterca...sion/index.html

http://usa.visa.com/..._results_us.jsp

Then when going to the following web site that shows exchange rates from a variety of Thai banks, the eight Thai banks listing their exchange rate data showed an average TT Buying rate of 30.485, with range of TT rates reported going from 30.47 to 30.51. http://bankexchanger...et/default.aspx Bangkok Bank was not listed, but I went to their web site and they showed a 30.48 TT Buying rate, which was pretty much in the center of those other Thai banks reporting their rates on above website.

So, just this one snapshot in time showed the Mastercard exchange rate got pretty close the TT rate being offered by Thai banks, but the Visa exchange rate clearly bettered the TT rate. But the Mastercard rate came close enough (within approx 0.1%) of the average Thai bank TT rate to overcome fees associated with wire transfer fees to Thai banks in order to get their TT rate, which run around 0.25% to 0.5% for a low cost transfer (i.e., no sending bank fee and only having the Thai bank funds receiving fee). For example: Bkk Bank charges 0.25% (200 baht minimum to 500 baht maximum) to receive/exchange funds sent via wire/SWIFT/ACH transfer. For people who send around $2000/month (which is appears a lot of farangs do based on TV posts I've read) this fee structure means they would see a 200 baht minimum charge which equates to a 0.33% total fee for receiving/exchanging the dollars. Even if you send less than $2000/month, the 200 baht minimum fee still applies...and, I "did not" include the Bangkok Bank New York Branch $5 fee they apply as the money flows through them, which effectively makes the total receiving fee cost higher...approx twice as high. Many farangs don't use Bangkok Bank or use a transfer method which routes the transfer through their NY branch, so this NY branch pass-thru fee wouldn't apply; just any other fees their sending banks/transfer methods may apply.

So, assuming no ATM withdrawal fee, foreign transaction fee, or other charge by your home country bank/credit card, even the Mastercard exchange rate provides a slightly better deal (a few tenths of a percent) for getting the best exchange rate when wire transfer fees are considered...and the Visa exchange rate definitely provides a better deal of a little over 1% more. And if you have heatlthy "sending bank" fees in additional to receiving/Thai bank fees for wire transfers to get the TT rate, then the Mastercard rate is an even better deal...maybe around 1% better and the Visa card even better at around 2%.

And for me using my Capital One Cash Rewards Mastercard for a lot of my Thailand purchases now...a card that gives me either 2% or 1% cash reward on every purchase with no foreign transaction fee or annual card fee along with US consumer law protections, I'm effectively getting an exchange rate of a little over 1% or 2% compared to the Thai bank TT rate. Sure wish that Cap One card was carrying the Visa logo then I would be getting a little better than a 2% or 3% effective exchange rate on purchases than the Thai bank TT rate.

As mentioned, this was one snapshot in time comparison...your experience/calculations may (will) vary slightly depending on a variety of factors such as the exchange rate of the moment, different card fees, amount you wire over each time, etc. Some people may think these small percentages are "just beer money" (I just love that phrase), but that "just beer money" percentages adds up to some big beer money just after a short while when using your various credit cards, debit cards, ATM cards, wire transfers, bank account interest rates earned, etc., in the right mix "to your benefit" versus the bank's benefit.

OK, someone go ahead and say it, "It's Just Beer Money."

Edited February 17, 2011 by Pib

[jfchandler]

Pib, thanks for that... I think your analysis regarding ATM card use here is dead-on correct....

So, assuming no ATM withdrawal fee, foreign transaction fee, or other charge by your home country bank/credit card, even the Mastercard exchange rate provides a slightly better deal (a few tenths of a percent) for getting the best exchange rate when wire transfer fees are considered...and the Visa exchange rate definitely provides a better deal of a little over 1% more. And if you have "sending bank" fees in additional to receiving/Thai bank fees, then even the Mastercard rate is a better deal...maybe approaching 2% and the Visa card approaching 3%.

The only other element to throw into the mix would be Thai bank counter withdrawals here....which as we've discussed previously, present their own set of challenges and potential pitfalls...too numerous to recount all here.

Even though both your and my own examples were one-time deals lately, I think we've all seen over time and from past experience that there's a definite and ongoing exchange rate advantage, all other things being equal, to using VISA-PLUS logo cards vs. MasterCard logo cards...

BTW, I get a "page not found" error message on the VISA exchange rates link you posted above.

Edited February 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[Pib]

I try the cut and paste again...give this one a try.

http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/consumer_ex_rates_us.jsp

[jgm005]

JFC, I have no doubt it worked for you but for my card and my wifes it did not. It has become a hit and miss deal in it being accepted at many ATMS. All getting the 'Invalid Transaction ...' message. It is a pain in the rear end to keep on coming back to a ATM to find the time of the day it may work. Which is why I am giving up the ghost on Capital One (ATM). Customer Service just says 'try again' OR 'let us send you another card'. Love the Credit card and the cash rewards. Never a problem with it. I'll be trying again Saturday at Citibank. Thanks for all the valuable information you give along with others!

JGM, the Cap One ATM card in its new Cirrus version definitely will work at the CitiBank ATMs in BKK at Asoke and Sukhumvit roads...no question about it... Unfortunately, CitiBank only has those ATMs at one location in all of Thailand, so their accessibility is limited.

Snipped ....

[Pib]

JFC, I have no doubt it worked for you but for my card and my wifes it did not. It has become a hit and miss deal in it being accepted at many ATMS. All getting the 'Invalid Transaction ...' message. It is a pain in the rear end to keep on coming back to a ATM to find the time of the day it may work. Which is why I am giving up the ghost on Capital One (ATM). Customer Service just says 'try again' OR 'let us send you another card'. Love the Credit card and the cash rewards. Never a problem with it. I'll be trying again Saturday at Citibank. Thanks for all the valuable information you give along with others!

JGM, the Cap One ATM card in its new Cirrus version definitely will work at the CitiBank ATMs in BKK at Asoke and Sukhumvit roads...no question about it... Unfortunately, CitiBank only has those ATMs at one location in all of Thailand, so their accessibility is limited.

Snipped ....

There's a "possibility" it could be a card magnetic strip issue/the strip has become damaged. My BofA Credit Card developed such a problem about 5 years ago...one day it became a hit and miss situation when using the card to pay for items...when I swiped it, it wouldn't work and I would get some error message...hand it to the cashier for them to give it a try on a separate POS machine and it might work or not work....sometimes if we swiped it three of four times it would then work; other times I could swipe the card until the cows came home and it wouldn't work. BofA sent me a new card; no more problems.