What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[Suradit]

As I said before, the law is not fair, logical, or well thought out. However it is the law....and it is just what you have to follow.

Deal with it.

(TIT)

The quite logical, fair and well thought-out purpose is to ensure that you don't deprive a Thai of work. Even if you do charity work with no compensation, you are potentially doing something that a Thai might be paid to do.

I doubt there are many countries in the world that welcome foreigners to take up residence and start earning money while many of their own citizens are unemployed. You aren't in Thailand because everyone is so pleased to have you. You're here to spend money or, if employed, to offer services not easily provided by Thai nationals. Very sensible.

[LivinLOS]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

[LivinLOS]

Trading does not constitute working as it is a purely personal exercise where only you stand to gain/loose.

Thats said with conviction.. So I will take you at your word.

But I could contradict it in many ways, trading is NEVER a personal exercise as for every trade someone is taking the opposite side, for every winner theres a loser etc etc. You simply cannot trade in isolation.

[KoratFarang]

So making food in my kichen and clean after would be work aswell ?

It is crazy................................ what will the next be, do i need to bring staff to the toilet to clean my a...... after i finish !!!"!

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

[KoratFarang]

So making food in my kichen and clean after would be work aswell ?

It is crazy................................ what will the next be, do i need to bring staff to the toilet to clean my a...... after i finish !!!"!

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

[tombkk]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

Are you sure about this? I thought (but am not sure) that if you do it for yourself, i.e. paint your own house or wipe your own behind, it's not considered work. But if you help your neighbour and paint his house or fix his fence, it is. Looking at the letter of the law means that if you do anything but lay on the beach, you are working?

But then, you might be right posting on this list, I never thought about that.

[LivinLOS]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

Are you sure about this? I thought (but am not sure) that if you do it for yourself, i.e. paint your own house or wipe your own behind, it's not considered work. But if you help your neighbour and paint his house or fix his fence, it is. Looking at the letter of the law means that if you do anything but lay on the beach, you are working?

But then, you might be right posting on this list, I never thought about that.

Work permit application (source: Ministry of labour)

1. Definition

“Alien” means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

“Work” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

------------

Kinda sums it up.. To do anything or to think about anything, whether or not you get paid for it. Breathing for example could be included under this definition !! Reading this post certainly 'expends energy' and requires you to 'use knowledge'.

Its laughable tho that the attempt to define a word includes the same word in its definition.. Anyone with the slightest grasp of logic would realize the gaping hole in that !!

Edited January 9, 2011 by LivinLOS

[backsoon]

I have a sore swallen knee. My neighbor, a farang, gave me a medical advice and a few tablets from his own stock. He is a registered Med. Practitioner from overseas. Is he breaking the Law? Am I?

My g/f helps me in the shower since for 4 weeks I cannot bend down to my feet. Is she also breaking the Law? Am I?

Irrespectively of the answers to these and like questions I don't want to say anything about Thai Law, because this would definitely be breaking the Law. Your guess now :jap:

[121Advice]

It is true that 'A for ambiguity' should be at the start of the Thai alphabet for sure, but you do NOT need proof of a work permit to open a trading account in Thailand - FACT!

If someone in Thailand really doesn't like you then you can be arrested for practically anything (mentioning Burger King being disrespectful to the King?) and painting your house COULD be deemed working (property development) no matter how innocently you might be going about your general maintenance etc..

I can only repeat what I know, and that is trading on a personal account is NOT classified as working. You would only fall foul of the authorities if your gains were receipted in Thailand and not declared for taxation purposes. Outside of the Kingdom (offshore account(s)) the Thai authorities have NO legal jurisdiction whatsoever - no 'actual' trading is occurring on their soil as all transactions are via an offshore company - nothing to do with Thailand.

If however, you have a tendency to open your big mouth and tell others about how you are doing, then this could be deemed as 'providing advice' without a licence to do so - so common sense prevails as always.

All offshore trading accounts are digitally encrypted (99% anyway) so without an international warrant the offshore company is under no obligation to disclose your information unless fraud or money laundering is suspected. Highly unlikely for the majority of us etc...

Trading from you own home, for your own benefit, with no advice to others and via an offshore institution is perfectly legal in Thailand and without any work permit obligations. You are only responsible to declare profits to your country of domicile (birth/naturalisation) if THAT country requires you to do so (personal taxation rules relative to your country of domicile and variable from country to country).

Trade? yes. Pick up a paint brush? Hey, if you're any good at trading you can afford to get someone in right?

Andrew.

Edited January 9, 2011 by 121Advice

[Soutpeel]

If anybody comes over to work, he needs a work permit. This can be issued within a day and does not require a non-B. It can be issued even if the person has a 30-day visa exempt stamp. This temporary WP can be valid for up to 15 days. The Application for Temporary Work Permit under Article 7 is called Tor Tor 11 (ตท๑๑).

It can be faxed to the Ministry of Labour in Din Daeng and needs to be accompanied by a copy of the passport, visa (if applicable) and entry stamp. In addition, you need a copy of the employer's passport and work permit as well as the ususal company registration. Fax number is 02 354 0117.

This will be applicable for example when auditors from HQ come over for a week or two to check the Thai branch office's accounts. Anyway, it is required even for one day of work, but in practice, hardly ever checked. I know of a case where it was indeed checked, the MD was sent to jail and a 3 million Baht bail was set, and in the end, the company had to pay a fine of THB 50,000.

Not saying your wrong , but in my experience with "emergency work permits" they do require somebody to have a Non immigrant visa ie an "O" or "B", this is based on the arguement that a Non immigrant visa can be had generally within a 24 hour period prior to travelling.

Also an emergency work permit is generally a 1 shot deal per year, you get 15 days whether you use them or not, ie some one who only uses say 7 days of the 15 cant carry the balance over for the rest of the year.

Also found they will not issue emergency WP's to all companies.

With the above being said they are very useful for the purpose they were designed for, but for a person travelling regularly into Thai to persue business, a mutliple Non-imm B would be the way to go IMHO

[LivinLOS]

It is true that 'A for ambiguity' should be at the start of the Thai alphabet for sure, but you do NOT need proof of a work permit to open a trading account in Thailand - FACT!

If someone in Thailand really doesn't like you then you can be arrested for practically anything (mentioning Burger King being disrespectful to the King?) and painting your house COULD be deemed working (property development) no matter how innocently you might be going about your general maintenance etc..

I can only repeat what I know, and that is trading on a personal account is NOT classified as working. You would only fall foul of the authorities if your gains were receipted in Thailand and not declared for taxation purposes. Outside of the Kingdom (offshore account(s)) the Thai authorities have NO legal jurisdiction whatsoever - no 'actual' trading is occurring on their soil as all transactions are via an offshore company - nothing to do with Thailand.

If however, you have a tendency to open your big mouth and tell others about how you are doing, then this could be deemed as 'providing advice' without a licence to do so - so common sense prevails as always.

All offshore trading accounts are digitally encrypted (99% anyway) so without an international warrant the offshore company is under no obligation to disclose your information unless fraud or money laundering is suspected. Highly unlikely for the majority of us etc...

Trading from you own home, for your own benefit, with no advice to others and via an offshore institution is perfectly legal in Thailand and without any work permit obligations. You are only responsible to declare profits to your country of domicile (birth/naturalisation) if THAT country requires you to do so (personal taxation rules relative to your country of domicile and variable from country to country).

Trade? yes. Pick up a paint brush? Hey, if you're any good at trading you can afford to get someone in right?

Andrew.

I think we are essentially in total agreement.. The difference is theres the letter of the law, the spirit of the law and the on the ground enforcement (or lack of it) of the law.

On just very obvious cases of working, I know an island where there are farangs working behind the counter of thier bars without work permits, the prevailing attitude seems to be 'he bought the bar, he can operate it' there.. On the opposite end of the spectrum a bar owner was in his bar (actively run by his legal Thai staff) inspectors came into the bar, and out of respect to have a conversation he reached over and turned the stereo down, and was instantly arrested for working !! Obvious shakedown !! In Patong you have a blight of farang scratchcard timeshare folks (I believe 'a blight' is the correct multiplier a gobble of ladyboys, a blight of timeshare reps etc) and clubs even have farangs handing out flyers and free drink coupons yet this is all actively ignored.

So rules are not always rules.. as ever.

[fxe1200]

Half of the work done by foreigners in Thailand is without proper documentation, visas, work permits. If I use the internet to make business abroad from Thailand, I am considered working. Many Government schools hire foreigners thru an agency, they will not hire you individually, no work permit is issued, you run the risk of an immigration visit, but rarely would that happen, It was explained to me how it works.

The school director has a budget, he pays the agency and inflated amount, documented, then the agency slips him some of the money back, the agency pays you less than they receive, and all are allowed to stay in business. The agency guaranteed me work teaching, they drove me to the school so I would know where it was, no WP will be issued. Since then (they have told a number of foreign employees that the WP is in the process) none have ever received one. So school director is breaking the law, agency is breaking the law and I would be also if I took the job. When I applied to the school directly, by passing the agency, I was told they could not hire me. How do they get away with it you may ask?

May be we understand this better, when we know the paperwork involved for the school or company, in order to get a workpermit for a farang teacher, besides the application: Balance sheet for the last five years, accurate drawing where the school is located, evidence that for all these years the proper tax had been paid, evidence that with the employment of a farang teacher, no Thai teacher would lose his job, minimum company capital of 2 Million THB. These requirements refer to Songkhla province, other provinces may have other rules. I just do not know.

[Tatsujin]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically, yes . . . it's work as defined by all the laws in place in Thailand and they would consider the fact that you are effectively also taking work away from a Thai painter which makes it worse. Do they enforce it, no, is it illegal, yes.

[jimbeam1]

I think for most Thais, getting out of bed in the morning, is the meaning of work?

jb1

[barry51]

My farang neighbour finds thai girls farang boyfriends for 25,000 baht. i guess this would be classed as work. but could he get a work permet to do it legaly

[Soutpeel]

It is very obvious, at least to me, under the current legislation, the definition of work is dependent on what an official deems it to be at that particular point in time, and open to mutiple interpretations.

[fxe1200]

My farang neighbour finds thai girls farang boyfriends for 25,000 baht. i guess this would be classed as work. but could he get a work permet to do it legaly

Take the TESOL/TEFL course to teach in Thailand.

[neverdie]

The 15 day provisions is meant for emergency situation, like when a repair man needs to come from abroad to do urgent repairs.

If any place has a need for an emergency repair I would say it would be this place, however, I don't think 15 days is long enought to fix it.

These threads are nearly as good as sin sot ones because basically virtually 'anything' you do could be deemed as work, depending on who is doing the deeming. Take a dump this morning, wipe ur own backside, you may very well be at work their, depending on who you upset of course.

Edited January 9, 2011 by neverdie

[oxo1947]

I have the rare luxury of having a Thai girlfriend who's mother is dead,

Wonderful choice of words Shoeboat

[tombkk]

My farang neighbour finds thai girls farang boyfriends for 25,000 baht. i guess this would be classed as work. but could he get a work permet to do it legaly

He would need to register a match-making company and then get a work permit for that company. I don't know whether match-making is legal in Thailand.

[tombkk]

If anybody comes over to work, he needs a work permit. This can be issued within a day and does not require a non-B. It can be issued even if the person has a 30-day visa exempt stamp. This temporary WP can be valid for up to 15 days. The Application for Temporary Work Permit under Article 7 is called Tor Tor 11 (ตท๑๑).

It can be faxed to the Ministry of Labour in Din Daeng and needs to be accompanied by a copy of the passport, visa (if applicable) and entry stamp. In addition, you need a copy of the employer's passport and work permit as well as the ususal company registration. Fax number is 02 354 0117.

This will be applicable for example when auditors from HQ come over for a week or two to check the Thai branch office's accounts. Anyway, it is required even for one day of work, but in practice, hardly ever checked. I know of a case where it was indeed checked, the MD was sent to jail and a 3 million Baht bail was set, and in the end, the company had to pay a fine of THB 50,000.

Not saying your wrong , but in my experience with "emergency work permits" they do require somebody to have a Non immigrant visa ie an "O" or "B", this is based on the arguement that a Non immigrant visa can be had generally within a 24 hour period prior to travelling.

Also an emergency work permit is generally a 1 shot deal per year, you get 15 days whether you use them or not, ie some one who only uses say 7 days of the 15 cant carry the balance over for the rest of the year.

Also found they will not issue emergency WP's to all companies.

With the above being said they are very useful for the purpose they were designed for, but for a person travelling regularly into Thai to persue business, a mutliple Non-imm B would be the way to go IMHO

In acase that I know of, the foreigner who then received the temporary WP was here on what they say is a "30-day tourist visa". I am not sure whether they meant a visa-exempt stamp, but since these were Europeans, I (maybe wrongly) assumed so. Definitely not a non-B.

I wasn't aware that they will grant it only once per year, will look that up.

AFAIK you cannot work on a multiple non-B, unless you have a work permit. If I am wrong and you can indeed work without a work permit, as long as you have a non-B, kindly do point me to the regulation. I believe it is a common misconception that people think they have a "business visa" and are therefore allowed to work.

[tombkk]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

Technically yes..

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

Typing this post.. thinking about typing this post..

Its a ridiculous catch all law, that wouldnt stand unchallenged in any country that wanted a clear legal framework. Its my impression however that Thailands power brokers dont want a clear legal framework, they want a lose collection of locally interpretable offenses so that those with power can abuse them and / or use them against those without power.

Are you sure about this? I thought (but am not sure) that if you do it for yourself, i.e. paint your own house or wipe your own behind, it's not considered work. But if you help your neighbour and paint his house or fix his fence, it is. Looking at the letter of the law means that if you do anything but lay on the beach, you are working?

But then, you might be right posting on this list, I never thought about that.

Work permit application (source: Ministry of labour)

1. Definition

“Alien” means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

“Work” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

------------

Kinda sums it up.. To do anything or to think about anything, whether or not you get paid for it. Breathing for example could be included under this definition !! Reading this post certainly 'expends energy' and requires you to 'use knowledge'.

Its laughable tho that the attempt to define a word includes the same word in its definition.. Anyone with the slightest grasp of logic would realize the gaping hole in that !!

[Colabamumbai]

The one I find curious is profiting from investments while in Thailand.

Example 1. I buy an equity position while outside of Thailand. I fly into Thailand, the equity position rises, I get richer, I fly out of Thailand and sell it. I made that money while in Thailand.

Eg 2. The same example as above but now I sell it while in Thailand, now I have actually realized gains within the country.

Eg 3. I both buy and sell the equity while here in Thailand. This interests me as you dont need a work permit to buy and sell another asset, be it a house or a car, yet both can make money.

Eg 4. I sit at a desk all day, day trading the international markets with high leverage, making 100's of k USD a year and not paying any Thai income tax.

These scenarios are all on a shades of grey scale, I think it would be hard to argue that 4 isnt working and shouldnt pay income tax, but you cant pay income tax in Thailand without a WP and you cant get one for the kind of work I am talking about. Option 1 however is essentially the same thing, but would be totally wacky to think every tourist owes taxes on any equity rise during their time within the kingdom.

The law in Thailand is badly worded and vague (for a start it uses the word it is defining in the definition !!) and a catch all. In a sane country it would be challenged and defined, but thats not going to happen, its just used as a blanket rule to throw at people and gain tea money payments sometimes. But I would be interested in legal opinions on the above.

Go with Eg. 4.... you are your own boss, set your own hours, wear what you like, you don't have to learn to speak Thai, and you are out of the public eye.

[DTiger]

The interesting part is that the definition of "work" is not even better in Thai.... And honestly, have a look in any English / American dictionary, you'll find no help!

exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something

Edited January 9, 2011 by DTiger

[ianh68]

As I said before, the law is not fair, logical, or well thought out. However it is the law....and it is just what you have to follow.

Deal with it.

(TIT)

The quite logical, fair and well thought-out purpose is to ensure that you don't deprive a Thai of work. Even if you do charity work with no compensation, you are potentially doing something that a Thai might be paid to do.

I doubt there are many countries in the world that welcome foreigners to take up residence and start earning money while many of their own citizens are unemployed. You aren't in Thailand because everyone is so pleased to have you. You're here to spend money or, if employed, to offer services not easily provided by Thai nationals. Very sensible.

Thanks for telling me the reason why I am not allowed to do unpaid charity work. Next time there's a national disaster I'll think twice before lifting a finger to help.

[Soutpeel]

AFAIK you cannot work on a multiple non-B, unless you have a work permit. If I am wrong and you can indeed work without a work permit, as long as you have a non-B, kindly do point me to the regulation. I believe it is a common misconception that people think they have a "business visa" and are therefore allowed to work.

Correct you are not suppose towork on an Non-imm B multiple entry, but read the interpretation given to me by senior immigration and labour office officals a few years ago in an earlier post which gives examples of what they thought and their interpretation of rules, the problem comes in interpretation of what "work" is vs "looking at doing business in Thailand", where a non-imm B only is permissable

The rules are badly written and vague, therefore in almost all cases its down to an individual official to interpret, irrespective of what the regulation says and we could go around and around with this debate, In my experience dealing these sort issues the vast majority of immigration/labour officials dont know or dont understand the rules themselves as they stand

FYI...there are precidents/provisions in the Oil & Gas act which actually does "allow" somebody to work on a 1 year Non-imm B without a full WP, (not an emergency WP) these relate to certain specific cases of certain classes of workers offshore only for periods < 12 months on certain projects, but again, this was an interpretation of the rules by a specific official and believe "definitive" rules are coming soon, which would require this class of worker to have a full WP

[Soutpeel]

The interesting part is that the definition of "work" is not even better in Thai.... And honestly, have a look in any English / American dictionary, you'll find no help!

exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something

And if you look in the Thai-English dictionary...."exertion" is replaced with "extortion"....this is why the BiB have no problems taking cash off people...they are working...

Edited January 9, 2011 by Soutpeel

[Tanaka]

As I said before, the law is not fair, logical, or well thought out. However it is the law....and it is just what you have to follow.

Deal with it.

(TIT)

The quite logical, fair and well thought-out purpose is to ensure that you don't deprive a Thai of work. Even if you do charity work with no compensation, you are potentially doing something that a Thai might be paid to do.

I doubt there are many countries in the world that welcome foreigners to take up residence and start earning money while many of their own citizens are unemployed. You aren't in Thailand because everyone is so pleased to have you. You're here to spend money or, if employed, to offer services not easily provided by Thai nationals. Very sensible.

Thanks for telling me the reason why I am not allowed to do unpaid charity work. Next time there's a national disaster I'll think twice before lifting a finger to help.

After the tsunami -04, there were western people trying to help and there were people coming into Thailand to help. The latter could get a 15-day exception visa for this purpose. If they stayed longer, in some cases immigration came looking for them and they were charged with overstay. In some cases the former group were harassed by immigration as working without a wp when trying to help people who lost everything.

Do not try to help here. Same if you witness a traffic accident, don't go near it. You may be accused of causing it.

[TimTang]

The one I find curious is profiting from investments while in Thailand.

Example 1. I buy an equity position while outside of Thailand. I fly into Thailand, the equity position rises, I get richer, I fly out of Thailand and sell it. I made that money while in Thailand.

Eg 2. The same example as above but now I sell it while in Thailand, now I have actually realized gains within the country.

Eg 3. I both buy and sell the equity while here in Thailand. This interests me as you dont need a work permit to buy and sell another asset, be it a house or a car, yet both can make money.

Eg 4. I sit at a desk all day, day trading the international markets with high leverage, making 100's of k USD a year and not paying any Thai income tax.

These scenarios are all on a shades of grey scale, I think it would be hard to argue that 4 isnt working and shouldnt pay income tax, but you cant pay income tax in Thailand without a WP and you cant get one for the kind of work I am talking about. Option 1 however is essentially the same thing, but would be totally wacky to think every tourist owes taxes on any equity rise during their time within the kingdom.

The law in Thailand is badly worded and vague (for a start it uses the word it is defining in the definition !!) and a catch all. In a sane country it would be challenged and defined, but thats not going to happen, its just used as a blanket rule to throw at people and gain tea money payments sometimes. But I would be interested in legal opinions on the above.

Logically I can't imagine any of these scenarios as being classified as work. Your investments are outside the country, you are not actually making money, your investments are. As long as you maintain the necessary balance in the bank or receive the necessary monthly income from abroad you should not be concidered working.

I'm surviving on a pension plan. A pension plan is nothing more than an investment whereby the pension company handles all the funds with the intention of providing the best possible interest on my remaining balance.

I receive interest and compounded interest on my pension so while I am actually making money, it's my pension that's doing the work; not me.

I can't see how your case is any different. How could they even prove that you are making money unless they actually accessed your overseas investments; that would be illegal.

[TimTang]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

As stupid as it may seem, if you got caught, yes it would be considered work. I've heard of similar incidences.

I'm not sure what the logic behind it is; possibly they may determine that by painting your own house you are denying employment to a Thai which you could pay to have it done.

I wouldn't worry much about hanging pictures but I would wear a disguise if I was outside painting the house.