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Payment Of Convenience...


baht&sold

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Because of a couple of incidences lately, I've been pondering this topic, realising how it certainly affects everyone negatively in LOS, yet many of us succumb to it from time to time.

You know the drill, the boys in brown pull you over and you pay the "fine" on the spot or give into the TOT guy and pay him a little "grease" to get your phone hooked up raos raos etc...

On another thread, I mentioned a car I was driving rcvd a "wheel lock" since I'd unknowingly parked in a no parking zone on a side soi. Since the cop writing the ticket was there, it was late at night and I didn't fancy a cab ride to Lumipini police stn to sort the fine, I offered to pay on the spot and was declined (kudos to the cop- or perhaps more likely since the boot was actually placed by a separate party, the cop couldn't unlock it anyways??)

Next evening, enroute to Hua Hin, red licence plates got us pulled over at a road check at night, just before the Cha Am turnoff (red means "new" and can't be driven at night I belatedly found out- yes, I should've known better;) also, my Thai driver's licence had recently expired, compounding the situation. So, the cop offered we avoid going to the Cha Am police stn to sort it, by paying "what we like" on the spot. He passed the ticket pad inside and 300 baht was placed into it and after he rcvd it, he pleasantly wished us a good night...

These two examples CLEARLY show I was in the wrong. As one whom abhors "corruption", does this make a hypocrite by trying to take the "accepted" path of least resistance? (me??? I'd say so, in light of the facts) :D:D

BTW, to get a NEW TOT line installed into a new building can be quite a wait but after you get motioned to meet with "the engineer" on the soi outside the office, amazingly a one week or one month wait, turns into less than two hours with a small 'donation'...

There ARE uncorruptable civil servants and the like (of course!) - bless them too, making a paltry wage and sticking to their principles, of which I could quote a number of different positive anectodtes as well (eg; if your foreign licence has expired, at least at the Suk ofc, expect to write the driver's test;)

It's a moral dilemma alright, particularily for those of us whom wish to make our home here and want to contribute positively but get caught in the "convenience trap" and sometimes compromise our transplanted belief systems.

SO, Pro/con, what are your similar views/experiences and should we ALL refuse to contribute to corruption absolutely, or are we just adapting to the situation out of convenience or neccesity? (devil's advocate speaking;) :D:o

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As a foreigner I have no intention to impose my PC views on Thai society and as such I just go with the flow and would pay a bribe if it would be to my convenience.

What pisses me of though is that as a foreigner I seem to have to pay higher amounts than the Thais. So much for honesty among thieves :o

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Because of a couple of incidences lately, I've been pondering this topic, realising  how it certainly affects everyone negatively in LOS, yet many of us succumb to it from time to time.

You know the drill, the boys in brown pull you over and you pay the "fine" on the spot or give into the TOT guy and pay him a little "grease" to get your phone hooked up raos raos etc...

On another thread, I mentioned a car I was driving rcvd a "wheel lock" since I'd unknowingly parked in a no parking zone on a side soi. Since the cop writing the ticket was there, it was late at night and I didn't fancy a cab ride to Lumipini police stn to sort the fine, I offered to pay on the spot and was declined (kudos to the cop- or perhaps more likely since the boot was actually placed by a separate party, the cop couldn't unlock it anyways??)

Next evening, enroute to Hua Hin, red licence plates got us pulled over at a road check at night, just before the Cha Am turnoff (red means "new" and can't be driven at night I belatedly found out- yes, I should've known better;) also, my Thai driver's licence had recently expired, compounding the situation. So, the cop offered we avoid going to the Cha Am police stn to sort it, by paying "what we like" on the spot. He passed the ticket pad inside and 300 baht was placed into it and after he rcvd it, he pleasantly wished us a good night...

These two examples CLEARLY show I was in the wrong. As one whom abhors "corruption", does this make a hypocrite by trying to take the "accepted" path of least resistance? (me??? I'd say so, in light of the facts) :D  :D

BTW, to get a NEW TOT line installed into a new building can be quite a wait but after you get motioned to meet with "the engineer" on the soi outside the office, amazingly a one week or one month wait, turns into less than two hours with a small 'donation'...

There ARE uncorruptable civil servants and the like (of course!) - bless them too, making a paltry wage and sticking to their principles, of which I could quote a number of different positive anectodtes as well (eg; if your foreign licence has expired, at least at the Suk ofc, expect to write the driver's test;)

It's a moral dilemma alright, particularily for those of us whom wish to make our home here and want to contribute positively but get caught in the "convenience trap" and sometimes compromise our transplanted belief systems.

SO, Pro/con, what are your similar views/experiences and should we ALL refuse to contribute to corruption absolutely, or are we just adapting to the situation out of convenience or neccesity?  (devil's advocate speaking;)  :D  :o

Paying 100 or 200 Baht for speeding "fine" pisses you off at the time,but if you think of fine in England-£60 and maybe 3 points on your licence,and the place becoming like speed cameraville,the back hander isn't too bad.

This year i drove around 1,500 kilometers and was hit by a 100 baht fine-paid on the spot obviously,back in England i'd have had a shed load of fines and been banned!So,keep a few 100Baht notes handy and smile! :D

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Bugsy you are really missing the point, actually you are a big part of the problem. Good that you are a jnr, a few more years and you will understand.

I have a chinese man in our family. He is the husband of my wifes sister. Lets call him Nand. Nand is an experienced driver. Takes care of his family, always ready to help. Money wise he is an average guy, same like me.

Nand is driving i am sitting next to him, rest of the family in the back. 15 people total. :o

On our way to Cambodia for my visa run. Halfway we get stopped by a police officer. We are not speeding or doing anything wrong. He just walks around the car and said we were speeding. Nand gives his drivers licence and i see him slip a 100 baht note between his papers. The police officer walks away, comes back and wishes us a good journey. That went smooth, not good but smooth. I am wondering why it happened and why it was going automatic, no questions no threats to pay fines, nothing. I ask questions and i get answer like, that's the way it works, don't worry nothing special. I think quietly, crazy "rules", crazy people.

At the cambodian border i stand in line, at that moment about 100 people or more. Services are offered, do you want fast? can help! only 200 baht! I said no (maybe 5-6 times) and just waited until it was my turn. A guy from a visa service walks past with maybe 30 passport and gets them stamped in and out within minutes. I just shake my head. When everybody uses this "service" it will never go away! Al the time my family is waiting and wonder why i not do it easy.

The wait was actually not that long and i could see that Nand was looking and thinking. Now my turn to answer question like why you not apy, it is more quick more easy. I just think it is not fair to take advantage of people only because you sit behing a desk or wear a uniform.

They were suprised even more when i told them this is completely unheard of in my country. It made them think. At least i showed that you don't have to. It is your decision. Be corrupt yourself or be a good boy. Nand is now "switched" and never paid since. Well at least when i was around.

Another time i am driving on a motorcycle and a police officer stops me. It was pretty obvious he was looking for a bribe. Sorry will not happen. I was driving without a helmet so it was my own fault. Went to the police station and paid my fine. A week later same officer, this time i have my helmet on. I got waved by with a big smile and a thumps up!

If people stop paying, sometimes even without being asked, maybe just maybe it will stop.

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Give us THB 100 and I might tell you.

add pretend tear running (can use some water drop :D )... always work with me when i have to face with cop :D:D:D:D never fired

Bambi

Not all of us are as beautiful as you Bambi.... :D

I think I might get arrested or molested if I cried to a policeman! :o !

For me I just tell them I don't understand, I don't speak Thai etc. etc. :D

Works when I am alone in the car. :D

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Having encountered the same types of situations when I first got here, it initially irritated me a bit - and then I adopted the (possibly correct) philosophy that Thailand operates largely on the basis of "user fees".

In Thailand, personal and corporate taxation rates - and actual levels of enforcement - are low. They achieve this by making the actual users of services effectively pay for those services. Thus - low income Thais who can't afford an automobile are not taxed to support highway police - car-owners are - "taxed" in the form of bribes/payoffs that have to be made directly to the police, by car-owners.

Low-income Thais who do not ship anything in or out of Thailand are not paying high taxes to fund the salraies of customs officers - instead, "users" -people who ship in and out of Thailand - pay.

From a western perspective, this initially looks "unfair." But - it might actually be a good idea.

Probably the single best expression of this is the process of establishing a "Free Trade Zone" manufcaturing facility in Thailand. Effectivbely, if approved, you can set-up a factory anywhere, and obtain duty-free imports of machinery and raw materials. The "catch" is - to obtain duty-free imports, you must erect a barrier fence around your facility (or warehouse), build and equip an on-site customs office, and pay the salaries of customs officers, based on how many days per week and hours per day you want the gates open. Thai taxpayers don't pay for this - you do - because you are the "user" who benefits.

As far as the red plates on the car situation goes - that is a long-standing tradition. If you are a farang, and you drive a new car during the first 30 days, it as red plates - and every policeman that sees you will pull you over for real or imagined transgressions, and seek to "share your good fortune and happiness" by extracting 200, or 300, or 500 baht from you. I think I got stopped four times in ten days, with red plates. It is tradition, and it is generally done with reasonably good humor - i.e. they will chat you up, compliment you on the car, etc. Just grin and bear it - think of it as a user fee for driving a new car. If this really bothers you, just park the car for 30 days, until the regular license plates arrive - and they generally won't bother you.

Another issue that comes up frequently on this board is the issue of "two tier poricing" - one price for Thais, and a higher price for non-Thais. I read endless complaints and moaning about this. Well, my own company practices this policy - wecharge Thai customers less than we charge farang customers. Why is that? Because - I can assign my lowest-level, non-English speaking (= lowest-paid)employees to take care of Thai clients - and the habdling of the work is unlikely to have any mis-communication, unmet expectations, or to involve dragging me into the situation. Farang custimers, on the other hand, aredealt with by my high-end staff - who are either educated overseas, or who have undergraduate degrees in English language. So - effectuvely - I have adopted "user fees" - those who need to deal with English-speaking staff effectively pay the salary differential involved.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

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For me I just tell them I don't understand, I don't speak Thai etc. etc. :D

Works when I am alone in the car. :D

I find that's a good time to smile, be friendly and oblivious as you speak bad french at 100 words per second. :D

No tickets yet. :o

cv

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Never ever one Baht for bribes! Corruption starts with the individual and if you slip a 100 Baht note to a policeman, you are corrupt. No excuses.

I drive about 1,000 km a week, been pulled over countless times by the highway police for whatever bullsh*t reasons - this one works fine: ask for evidence, speedcamera etc. Then they will explain you that you have to pay a ticket in Nakorn Nowhere policestation...Nakorn Nowhere! Wonderful! I'm a travelling salesman and tomorrow I am in...never got a ticket from Highway Police, never bribed them either...they just let you drive away as they are only after the tips.

The red plate issue is actually a real Thai law, you are not allowed to leave your province or drive at night with a red plate. My car dealer (Honda Pattaya) told me noproblemnoproblem. Got a ticket upon entering Bangkok and it even turned out that I had a fake red plate, hence no insurance cover. Mr. Honda Dealer happily paid for the ticket in Bangkok after I discussed the issue with him in front of other customers.

I also got my visa extended at Map Ta Put on the spot. Most Farangs around take the staff there regularly for dinners, drop truck loads of Whiskey and of course some cash. I ask myself why?

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Because of a couple of incidences lately, I've been pondering this topic, realising  how it certainly affects everyone negatively in LOS, yet many of us succumb to it from time to time.

You know the drill, the boys in brown pull you over and you pay the "fine" on the spot or give into the TOT guy and pay him a little "grease" to get your phone hooked up raos raos etc...

On another thread, I mentioned a car I was driving rcvd a "wheel lock" since I'd unknowingly parked in a no parking zone on a side soi. Since the cop writing the ticket was there, it was late at night and I didn't fancy a cab ride to Lumipini police stn to sort the fine, I offered to pay on the spot and was declined (kudos to the cop- or perhaps more likely since the boot was actually placed by a separate party, the cop couldn't unlock it anyways??)

Next evening, enroute to Hua Hin, red licence plates got us pulled over at a road check at night, just before the Cha Am turnoff (red means "new" and can't be driven at night I belatedly found out- yes, I should've known better;) also, my Thai driver's licence had recently expired, compounding the situation. So, the cop offered we avoid going to the Cha Am police stn to sort it, by paying "what we like" on the spot. He passed the ticket pad inside and 300 baht was placed into it and after he rcvd it, he pleasantly wished us a good night...

These two examples CLEARLY show I was in the wrong. As one whom abhors "corruption", does this make a hypocrite by trying to take the "accepted" path of least resistance? (me??? I'd say so, in light of the facts) :D  :D

BTW, to get a NEW TOT line installed into a new building can be quite a wait but after you get motioned to meet with "the engineer" on the soi outside the office, amazingly a one week or one month wait, turns into less than two hours with a small 'donation'...

There ARE uncorruptable civil servants and the like (of course!) - bless them too, making a paltry wage and sticking to their principles, of which I could quote a number of different positive anectodtes as well (eg; if your foreign licence has expired, at least at the Suk ofc, expect to write the driver's test;)

It's a moral dilemma alright, particularily for those of us whom wish to make our home here and want to contribute positively but get caught in the "convenience trap" and sometimes compromise our transplanted belief systems.

SO, Pro/con, what are your similar views/experiences and should we ALL refuse to contribute to corruption absolutely, or are we just adapting to the situation out of convenience or neccesity?  (devil's advocate speaking;)  :D  :o

Once in France, I got arrested while driving my car.

The policeman asked me to get into the police truck. I was surrounded by 3 big guys who lectured me about my uncounscious drive.

This happened just 3 days before I moved to Thailand. I was scared, emotionnally fragile so I started crying... I didn't deny anything and I even took the money out to pay the fine (120€).

The policeman suddenly said he won't charge me nor take off 3 points over my driving licence but I should better pay more attention next time. They didn't ask me for anything else.

I like to imagine that because I reconized I was wrong and because I didn't argue, the policemen thought the lesson was good enough for me.

And I can tell you that every time I drive through the spot I got arrested, I slow down my speed and remember the story. :D

In Thailand, nothing like this never happened to me. And as an idealistic person I would say I would never "buy" a man

But if something really annoying ever happens to me, I can't say for sure I won't bribe no one. I wouldn't judge one on it. I could perfectly be tempted doing so one day. :D

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Having encountered the same types of situations when I first got here, it initially irritated me a bit - and then I adopted the (possibly correct) philosophy that Thailand operates largely on the basis of "user fees". 

In Thailand, personal and corporate taxation rates - and actual levels of enforcement - are low.  They achieve this by making the actual users of services effectively pay for those services.  Thus - low income Thais who can't afford an automobile are not taxed to support highway police - car-owners are - "taxed" in the form of bribes/payoffs that have to be made directly to the police, by car-owners.

Low-income Thais who do not ship anything in or out of Thailand are not paying high taxes to fund the salraies of customs officers - instead, "users" -people who ship in and out of Thailand - pay.

From a western perspective, this initially looks "unfair."  But - it might actually be a good idea. 

Probably the single best expression of this is the process of establishing a "Free Trade Zone" manufcaturing facility in Thailand.  Effectivbely, if approved, you can set-up a factory anywhere, and obtain duty-free imports of machinery and raw materials.  The "catch" is - to obtain duty-free imports, you must erect a barrier fence around your facility (or warehouse), build and equip an on-site customs office, and pay the salaries of customs officers, based on how many days per week and hours per day you want the gates open.    Thai taxpayers don't pay for this - you do - because you are the "user" who benefits.

As far as the red plates on the car situation goes - that is a long-standing tradition.  If you are a farang, and you drive a new car during the first 30 days, it as red plates - and every policeman that sees you will pull you over for real or imagined transgressions, and seek to "share your good fortune and happiness" by extracting 200, or 300, or 500 baht from you. I think I got stopped four times in ten days, with red plates.  It is tradition, and it is generally done with reasonably good humor - i.e. they will chat you up, compliment you on the car, etc.  Just grin and bear it - think of it as a user fee for driving a new car.  If this really bothers you, just park the car for 30 days, until the regular license plates arrive - and they generally won't bother you.

Another issue that comes up frequently on this board is the issue of "two tier poricing" - one price for Thais, and a higher price for non-Thais.  I read endless complaints and moaning about this.  Well, my own company practices this policy - wecharge Thai customers less than we charge farang customers.  Why is that?  Because - I can assign my lowest-level, non-English speaking (= lowest-paid)employees to take care of Thai clients - and the habdling of the work is unlikely to have any mis-communication, unmet expectations, or to involve dragging me into the situation.  Farang custimers, on the other hand, aredealt with by my high-end staff - who are either educated overseas, or who have undergraduate degrees in English language.  So - effectuvely - I have adopted "user fees" - those who need to deal with English-speaking staff effectively pay the salary differential involved.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

Nice to see there are understanding and open-minded farangs living in Thailand.

Not saying that I condone corruption or 2-tier pricing.(hate them in fact)

But no systems are perfect.

Look forward to using your service in the future, IS. But Thai price, pls!

Edited by meemiathai
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I don't like the idea of paying bribes. It goes against what I believe, yet I would a fool to try survive in any system and not follow it's rules. That is how martyrs are made. To fight such ingrown corruption in any system one has to get orangized and have allies of like mind. It takes work, lots of it. So, do what you can on whatever level you can, but your first priority is you and your family. Do what you need to do within the system you live and work in.

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Having encountered the same types of situations when I first got here, it initially irritated me a bit - and then I adopted the (possibly correct) philosophy that Thailand operates largely on the basis of "user fees". 

In Thailand, personal and corporate taxation rates - and actual levels of enforcement - are low.  They achieve this by making the actual users of services effectively pay for those services.  Thus - low income Thais who can't afford an automobile are not taxed to support highway police - car-owners are - "taxed" in the form of bribes/payoffs that have to be made directly to the police, by car-owners.

Low-income Thais who do not ship anything in or out of Thailand are not paying high taxes to fund the salraies of customs officers - instead, "users" -people who ship in and out of Thailand - pay.

From a western perspective, this initially looks "unfair."  But - it might actually be a good idea. 

.............

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

Thus - low income Thais who can't afford an automobile are not taxed to support highway police - car-owners are - "taxed" in the form of bribes/payoffs that have to be made directly to the police, by car-owners.

If this is true, why not increase the yearly car tax and pay the police more?

Your post suggests that bribes are official government policy.

Low-income Thais who do not ship anything in or out of Thailand are not paying high taxes to fund the salraies of customs officers - instead, "users" -people who ship in and out of Thailand - pay.

Yes, It's called import duty.

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Good topic this one.

Raro,

Can you tell me if you give tips.

How do you draw the line between a tip and a bribe ?

I tip when I think the service rendered was ok or even better. I do not tip if I was not happy with the service. This usually applies to restaurants, pubs etc.

I once gave a policeman a bottle of Whiskey alongside with a recommendation/thank you letter for his captain because he helped me a lot after a car accident I had a year ago. It was far beyond what his duty was - he even drove me about 40 km back home at 2 in the morning. He actully felt very ashamed when I showed up with the bottle at his police box (he was there alone and no one else around).

The line between a bribe and a tip is to my understanding:

A tip is for service personnel as appreciation of a better than expected service and paid after receiving the service.

A bribe is a payment to a government official in order to get either something illegal done, something unpleasant (fine..) avoided or - the worst case - to get them working at all. It can also be in a commercial context from a customer to a purchaser in order to get orders, a so-called kick-back.

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Thanks for your reply, Raro

I have to apply for a one year visa extension each year.

Immigration give me VIP treatment and I give them an envelope containing money.  Am I tipping or bribing  ?

hahahaha. you are expediting your visa!!

my hubbie was called by the police when he wanted a visa; they asked outright for "cigarette money" to make sure there were no delays....a form of blackmail really. :o:D

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I remember that during a trip in Laos, between Vang Vien and Luang Prabang, I distributed hundreads of cigarettes to the "soldiers" we met in the moutains.

It was kinda scary to see these guys, holding guns, stopping our car for no reasons...

I never got who these people were.

I was relieved at that time that they would let us go against cheap ciggies.

Was it bribing?

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I don't really know if I'd be into paying a bribe or not...haven't been in a situation, yet. But IMHO bribes basically cause separtaion within the community. Those that can afford to pay get let off easy, or a quick service etc, the rest can go to ######. The rich get richer and more powerful, the rest go to ######. When a country such as Thailand creates laws that can be simply pushed aside by a bribe or status, then they are not laws at all. Most of the time these bribes are yes, small amounts of money, but still corruption at the end of the day.

Thailands corruption is rampant and has become "just the way it is here". It's easy to say just accept it but the truth is (IMHO), the only people suffering from all the corruption are Thailands less fortunate and their own children and future generations.

I know in my school, my students know from a very early age how to cheat, copy or somehow sneak their way through anything to simply get a higher grade or get out of doing something that requires any form of work or effort on their part. Corruption and it's accompanying habits only lead to increased ignorance laziness and lack of consideration for the good of all. It also leads to caos, poorer education and an endless list of other problems.

One only has to look at Thailand.....a great example of the problems caused by corruption.

No country is perfect but if I had to eat shit, I'd rather eat a small shit than a big one!

:o

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Thanks for your reply, Raro

I have to apply for a one year visa extension each year.

Immigration give me VIP treatment and I give them an envelope containing money.  Am I tipping or bribing  ?

Would you get the visa wihtout payment? Then it is somewhere in the grey zone between tip and bribe - you are still giving money to a governement official for something that he has to do anyways (approve or disapprove your visa application). He just does it faster.

Read about my last Visa extension here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39176&hl= - nothing paid, even had a melt-down at the immigration and...got the visa.

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The bribe system works well for some people because they can get their kick from it, i worked with an Aussie who loved riding his motorbike without a helmut. He loved the freedom thing so he was always being stopped and normally gave 50B and on he went. He's still in the LoS doing the same and he loves it.

The first time I was in a car when it was pulled and the money was given i nearly poohed my pants..... bribing a copper! i thought i was going to be shot ! :o

I always feel sorry for the people on the motorbikes the police stop them all when they haven't got the money are they scared to pull the big cars???

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Just a thought:

Do the Thai men in the brown uniforms ever report their "tips" for taxation purposes?

Yea, right......

Do policemen in other non-Asian countries every ask for tips to support the local police athletic league? In America, I would say absolutely not.

But then I keep forgetting that this is Thailand.

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The bribe system works well for some people because they can get their kick from it, i worked with an Aussie who loved riding his motorbike without a helmut. He loved the freedom thing so he was always being stopped and normally gave 50B and on he went. He's still in the LoS doing the same and he loves it.

Laws that require people to wear helmets when riding a bike are so fxxking stupid!

Why is it so if the only one who is going to suffer is the person himself? Self responsibility! :o

I hope governments are not going to make further laws that enforce people wearing shoes or helmets when walking in the streets!!! Freedom!!! :D

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Give us THB 100 and I might tell you.

add pretend tear running (can use some water drop :D )... always work with me when i have to face with cop :o:D:D:D never fired

Bambi

Yeah he can say take me to the police station to pay the fine and 2-3 hrs later he can get back on his road trip. Deal with it and stop breaking the law . People who let this happen put themselves in these situations .

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Do policemen in other non-Asian countries every ask for tips to support the local police athletic league? In America, I would say absolutely not.

Well I think Chicago is in America.

Was I ever hit up for tips?

Firemen, cops, garbagemen, inspectors, ..

"Now yuz ain't gonna hear me sayin' dat by puttin' dis here sticker on yr car yuz ain't never gonna get pulled over..."

I was never pulled over.

jb :o

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