30,000 Thai Red Shirts Rally In Bangkok: Police

[Nisa]

I think drawing half the crowd that you announced was expected is bad news for the Red Shirts.

This has been their tactic from the start. Whether it be announcing numbers they have not come close to attending rallied or having their leaders speak on stage of how they are about peaceful and lawful protests as they ignored police orders to disburse, created gas soaked and spear laden barriers, threw gas bombs, stormed government offices ..... They continue to lose credibility while attract and creating extremists as they continue to blindly do what their leaders tell them. Their continued attempts to create instability and divide within Thailand only serves Thaksin and those red leaders who ignorantly believe him or a puppet of his will be able to rule Thailand.

If the red leaders had any concern for their followers they would have a different message that people could understand instead of constantly lying and continually trying to work outside the law and courts. These are the same leaders who refused to accept an offer by the PM to call elections at the end of 2010 because they would not destabilize the country and this clearly appears to be their goal. These are the same leaders who demanded the legally appointed PM's resign stating there was NOTHING he could say or do to stop this demand. These are the same leaders who made speeches like this before their gathering last year that they continually stated was lawful and peaceful ...

It truly is time for the red shirts, who believe in a legitimate cause, to rethink their leadership and tactics if they truly do want change because right now they are only serving to delay change and isolate themselves from those who can help.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[Buchholz]

BANGKOK—Merchandising is alive and well when it comes to anti-government protests in Thailand. Street vendors of red shirted supporters, or the UDD (United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship), were among the first to set up their stalls around Bangkok’s Democracy Monument where a large-scale protest started on Sunday morning. The vendors were the earliest protesters arriving for 2011’s first large anti-government rally, which finished at the Ratchaprasong intersection—the high-end retail area was occupied by the UDD last April-May in a failed bid to force Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve Parliament and call an early election.

And you name it, the red-shirt vendors Sunday had it: red baby clothes, red T-shirts, red key-chains, red books, DVDs, red patches, red backpacks and handbags, and red cowboy hats all featuring red shirt slogans. Several vendors sold laminated images with the movement’s leadership who are mostly now locked in jail following the political violence that rocked Bangkok last year and left around 90 people dead. The protesters say they’ll now be holding rallies twice a month until their leaders are released.

Other for sale items, such as aprons and T-shirts, featured exiled former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra who was ousted by a military coup in 2006 and whom the largely rural, working-class red shirts see as their champion. The Thai government now describes the ex-business tycoon as a terrorist.

Other stalls around Democracy Monument on Sunday were hawking red-shirt propaganda with images of the violent clashes between protesters and soldiers in the Thai capital. Missing were any images of the 30 plus buildings set alight by hard-core red shirts on May 19 following the military’s operation to clear the demonstrators from their fortified camp.

The Epoch Times - January 9, 2010

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/48964/

[IMA_FARANG]

The "right to peaceful protest" is a cornerstone of democracy.

I agree it might be better for everyone if the demonstrators did not block a major highway...but considering what happened last year...a peaceful protest is a much better result. So, all in all, I'm willing to accept that.

As for the "reds" right to demonstrate....you can't have "democracy" for some and not for others, can you?

[Nisa]

I would like to point out that if the red-shirt leaders had not rejected Abhisit's offer of early elections back in April, we would have had an election by now. I wonder how many Reds now question the wisdom of their leaders?

Not enough

[ChiangMaiFun]

...Oh, maybe education will stop them but that has and continues to be addressed despite they fact I've never heard a Red mention they want better education for their kids..

'never heard a red mention they want better education'? now I've heard it all - what a load of rubbish

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[JohnAllan]

Farangs that live in Bangkok are the same as Thais that are from Bangkok. Ignorant about the rest of Thailand. I have been all over Thailand and I can a sure you that I have only met handful of people outside of Bangkok that don't like the Red side of the political problem here in Thailand.The Red side is the bigger side, whether they are the better side is not for me to say, because like most farangs that love to post their opinions and feelings on here about this topic, I don't hold a Thai Passport, therefore I don't have a say. The only thing I can say is. If they were to hold free and fair elections the red side would win and anyone who says different obviously hasn't been far outside of Bangkok.

If they ever do get to the point where elections are both 'free' and 'fair', then there will be NO guarantee of the reds winning.

And you not holding a Thai passport stops you from offering an opinion? Says who? You have, according to your post, been discussing the issue with Thais - mostly in the north east, no doubt - yet they didn't ask you for your viewpoint? You expressed no opinion? I find that difficult to believe.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The "right to peaceful protest" is a cornerstone of democracy.

I agree it might be better for everyone if the demonstrators did not block a major highway...but considering what happened last year...a peaceful protest is a much better result. So, all in all, I'm willing to accept that.

As for the "reds" right to demonstrate....you can't have "democracy" for some and not for others, can you?

no but what they want is 'it's ok for the yellows but not for the reds' - cool thinking right? the yellows on here are a right wing lot largely

[ChiangMaiFun]

Again the Red shirts has gathered in mob fashion making illegal demands while violating the law...

violating the law? where? when? they held a peaceful and LEGAL demo - are you on the same planet?

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[anterian]

I find the totally anti red shirt bias of most of commentators in this forum quite entertaining, they go to ludicrous lengths to rubbish any possibly good observations about their activities. One thing is for sure, they don't live amongst or have contact with poor Thais, the nearest they might come is a taxi driver, restaurant waiter or perhaps their maid. Most of whom will say what they think a Farang wants to here.

I can understand why they write as they do, most Farangs will automatically consort with the upper classes and adopt their values and attitudes towards the poor and countryfolk.

[Nisa]

violating the law? where? when? they held a peaceful and LEGAL demo - are you on the same planet?

It is my understanding based on news reports that the set up stage(s) as well as tore down barricades not to mention blocking traffic and infringing on the rights of others by blocking entrances to shops were barricades had originally been set up. Just because the government has been tolerant of their law breaking doesn't mean the were not violating the law. Lets not forget they have had numerous gatherings during the state of emergency that were not disrupted by police too.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[slinky1876]

...As for you not having a say because you don't have a Thai passport, I suggest that you DO have a say, as long as it is well-informed. The only thing you don't have is a vote.

The last two Farangs that had a say were kicked out of the country, so I would say that we don't have a say. Ok I'm ready for the comeback but really, you and I both know that if you sat down with a Thai man who is passionate about Thai politics, you would only ask questions about the political situations here. Never would you debate it. If you say different, can you please film it, because I think all of TV would like to see it. "farang mai lui luang"

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[ChiangMaiFun]

I find the totally anti red shirt bias of most of commentators in this forum quite entertaining, they go to ludicrous lengths to rubbish any possibly good observations about their activities. One thing is for sure, they don't live amongst or have contact with poor Thais, the nearest they might come is a taxi driver, restaurant waiter or perhaps their maid. Most of whom will say what they think a Farang wants to here.

I can understand why they write as they do, most Farangs will automatically consort with the upper classes and adopt their values and attitudes towards the poor and countryfolk.

thanks for a sensible post - I would estimate that the yellow fellows outnumber anyone with 'sympathies' to the broad red movement here (not particularly Thaksin) by at least 20/1 - I find it quite funny too - I have to fidn it amusing as I get hammered all the time by the right-wing smug capitalists on here. There are a few 'reasonable ones' who simply argure the case for the elites but loads more who think Thaksin is Lucifer incarnate and anyone who's DARES to support the poor is stupid, inexperienced and has no understanding about 'their' Thailand.

[Nisa]

Given what has transpired this past year, I am not even sure they could win if they held typical Thai elections now. They have not only lost support but have caused a lot of people to passionately oppose their leaders. I expect there will be pretty large turnout at the next election and given most Thais want harmony and unity I don't see them supporting a group whose leader's actions continue to accomplish the opposite.

[phiphidon]

...The Epoch Times - January 9, 2010

http://www.theepocht...ent/view/48964/

An interesting article by James Burke. A more enlightening piece was his article on the Nov. 19th rally, where, apart from a mention of the ban on such "red-shirt propoganda" he had the temerity to write

"Widespread media and Internet censorship continues, as do arbitrary arrests and detentions without charge" http://www.theepocht...ent/view/46273/.

This prompted a reply from the Thai Foreign Ministry "wishing to set the facts straight" (a part reproduced below, read the whole article by following the link)

"Finally, the Government's reconciliation plan is making steady progress. This includes addressing grievances related to economic disparities and social injustices, and that of establishing facts, providing remedies to those affected, and promoting reconciliation. Far from being "self-serving and biased," all sectors of society, including the red-shirts, have been engaged and encouraged to join".

I hope that this letter will help your readers better understand what is now happening in Thailand and therefore request that you publish this letter".

This the Editors duly did, but at least they had the courage to add two press releases from Human Rights Watch and Reporters without Borders beneath the Foreign Ministry fluff piece.

http://www.theepocht...ent/view/47183/

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[jayboy]

If you are educated then you may need to slow down when reading as you seem to be lacking comprehension of this post and those in an unrelated topic...

Not very convincing I'm afraid, and what you describe as "unrelated topic" is in fact very telling.If you had any self awareness you might understand

And you are still sublimely and hopelessly wrong (and again very self revealing) if you think one group of Thais has less interest in the education and welfare of their children than any other group of Thais.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[Pi Sek]

The above poster says Thaksin carried every province but Pattani!???????

^^

Not true on at least one count... Suratthani province did not vote Thaksin in in 2001, I know that for a fact without having to check. I doubt it was the only one!

In my personal experience of "the provinces", I can probably provide some insight to the divisions...

Udon Thani

I know for a fact that, in Ku Kaew district in Udon Thani, pro-Thaksin & UDD (they don't make a difference) support has swung from 90% pro-Thaksin to about 50-50 in the space of the last two years. And it is split absolutely: some love him, some hate him. Also, anti-Reds don't voice their opinions for fear of repercussions. Friends of mine in other Udon and Khon Kaen villages tell me the same... but in the cities there is pretty convincing Red Shirt support.

Buriram

I know for a fact that, in Non Din Daeng district in Buriram, pro-Newin support has not changed from 100% Bhum Jai Thai for years, no matter whom they are allied to. They recognise that Newin and his faction are very corrupt and probably very unpleasant people, but they also recognise that a vote for BJT is the most likely way to get funding reallocated to Buriram. A loud minority (20%?) support the Reds, who are tolerated and accepted as a valid political voice, albeit a trouble-causing one.

Phuket

Phuket's Red Shirt movement is the strongest you'll find in the South, where the Red Shirt organisation has about 750 people. The PAD are still able to walk around with yellow shirts with PAD written on them. They're not popular but they are accepted.

Suratthani & Nakhon Sri Thammarat

The Red Shirts are absolutely despised, especially in Surat, and wearing a red "I love Thaksin" T-shirt might earn you a trip to the hospital - it will certainly earn you a lot of verbal abuse from most people who see you. Jatuporn is considered as a traitor to his country and especially to his home province - his own mother has publicly given him a dressing down and he is not welcome in his own village. Having said that, my accountant is from Surat and she is pro-Thaksin, anti-Red Shirt - whatever that means (I've heard the opposite, mostly from farangs, but never this way around).

The above conclusions are purely the results of speaking with local people.

As for Bangkok, many Bangkok people that I know do not like the Red Shirts, some hate them (for obvious reasons!), and some are indifferent. A lot however say they sympathise with their cause but don't like their methods, and a lot think the Reds are too ignorant/uneducated/stupid to understand what they're protesting about. Many Bangkokians don't mind it when the Reds rally because it's an excuse for a party.

I believe that the Red support is very strong in the North (Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai) but I don't have enough experience of the area to comment informatively.

[anterian]

thanks for a sensible post - I would estimate that the yellow fellows outnumber anyone with 'sympathies' to the broad red movement here (not particularly Thaksin) by at least 20/1...

Perhaps inadvertently you made an interesting comment, you called it the BROAD red movement. This is indeed so there are many groups and individuals, I have spoken to many who would be classed as red, but often with widely divergent views and ideas as to how to achieve their aims, this is both a weakness and a strength, you cannot simply remove a dominant figurehead, as Abhisit tries, there are simply too many. Yet equally it means that often the only unifying factor is a hatred for the present government and the social inequality it supports. The Thaksin supporters are obviously the most visible, and most newsworthy, I would image that this is the group that most Farangs see as the red movement, rather than just the visible tip of a much larger "iceberg". Abhisit is the Captain of the Titanic.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[phiphidon]

...I live in the north of Thailand and know more 'reds' than 'yellows', but don't pretend they are not here.

"You won't find any in the rice fields. Try the hospital or your local doctor's surgery."

Why there? Are the Yellow Shirts more accident prone than the Red Shirts?

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[slinky1876]

^^

Not true on at least one count...

Great post, Always nice to hear an informative post.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[hammered]

The above poster says Thaksin carried every province but Pattani!???????

Which by its inaccuracy undermines the post

[Randee]

I'm with you on this one , Rubi, strange as it may seem. Indeed it appears there is some support for these rallies from the Bangkokians. They can't all be Isaan maids, motorcycle taxi drivers, and other assorted tradespeople working away from home (much less paid to be there).

Bangkokian, Bangkokonian, Bangkonian, Bangkokite ....... referring to myself and co, "Bangkokker" is the word.

Is there an actual correct english word for a Bangkok dweller? (oops slightly off topic sorry but interested)

[Bakseedaa]

First of all I want to say that the numbers given by the police are nothing but government propaganda - but this is nothing new...

Thr Red Shirts are a spent force, even the offer of 2000 bahts and travel expenses could not bring the crowds that they wanted, all my Soi motor bike taxi drivers were in their usual spot on my Soi playing draughts and waiting for fares, I asked them if they were going to the rally and they all said they were bored with it... only Issan farmers and crowds from the North came this time for the pay and a trip to Bangkok paid for by Mr Thaksin again.... pathetic politics . If you think this is anything like a 50,000 football crowd I would like to ask which team you support that has 50,000 in attendance... I am a Glasgow Celtic supporter and we know what a 90,000 crowd is like at every home game, This Red Shirt gathering was pathetic, the same as the Million man march.. are these the same thugs that set fire to Bangkok on their last "peaceful" protest. The lights are on but no-one is home.....Duhhh.... Rock on Abhisit, you will romp the next election if this is your opposition....Amazing Thailand.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[hammered]

Sombat's criticism of Thaksin using the rally to speak is interesting. How will Sombat react as an election approaches as this will only see more and more Thaksin speeches at rallies and he may get a little strident in his speeches if it looks the coalition are going to retain their current seats or even pick up more and hence defeat PTP.

We may yet see a more pure red group split away from Thaksin alignment although not right now

[phiphidon]

Bangkokian, Bangkokonian, Bangkonian, Bangkokite ....... referring to myself and co, "Bangkokker" is the word.

Is there an actual correct english word for a Bangkok dweller? (oops slightly off topic sorry but interested)

Well for certain residents/frequenters of Bangkok I can think of many but use Bangkokian as a polite version . But for your further edification;

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=th&u=http://guru.sanook.com/dictionary/dict_et/Bangkokian/&ei=RaIqTaykMM7srQfk-qzNDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbangkokian%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1261%26bih%3D656%26prmd%3Divns

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[Buchholz]

An interesting article by James Burke. A more enlightening piece was his article on the Nov. 19th rally

I thought his piece above was very revealing.

It dispels the myth that Thaksin has been removed from the Red Shirt scene and also points out the denial of the Burning of Bangkok.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Maestro
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[charmonman]

The above poster says Thaksin carried every province but Pattani!???????

That poster really doesn't have much of a grip on facts. I don't know exactly which election he was referring to but it doesn't hold true for any of them. On top of the ridiculous statement you quoted, he also makes use of statistics on federal income taxes to make some sort of point about distribution of income in the USA, which are two different things.

The interesting thing about his posting is that he expresses an admiration of Thaksin typical of a red shirt supporter and a disdain for US "liberal Decmocrats" typical of a tea party supporter. I've always thought the two movements have a lot in common.

[Babcock]

Nick Nostiz, the famed photo-journalist, published a panoramic picture from a gantry at the March rally at the Democracy monument showing there were

around 150000 people there.We were there.

That was at a time when the demonstration was still legal and before any grenades had gone off around Bangkok. The bombings, some would say, were the

convenient excuse for the government to bring in Thaksin's Emergency decree and to ban the rally which by turn led to the catastrophe on April 10th.

Most thai children do not know what the Democracy monument commemorates as most contemporary thai history, even at Thammasat university, cannot be taught

due to Les majestie laws.

I remember the Nation publishing a photo on their cover of one early rally in a stadium taken several hours before the rally began. Imagine a similar

picture taken at a game at Old Trafford with the caption Man U v Liverpool Poor attendance.

I'm looking forward to the next installment from Wikileaks. According to Sondhi of the PAD it's all lies of course.

For informed analysis I look up and cross reference the leading actors in this Thai melodrama on Wikipedia. See the antics of the elite recorded for

posterity.

As Emptyset has helpfully provided links to Khun Ying Jaruvan Maintaka A senior member of the PAD and friend of Sondhi Lim, she set up the assets scrutiny commitee to look into Thaksin's assets starting with the land sale.

Remember Sondhi was excused the 12000000 dollars he owed the bank when his former finance director, then politician became head of said bank. She defended Sondhi to the teeth against his detractor in government over the affair. These people are dangerous. I fear for the future here in Thailand.

The charges against Thaksin so far after 4 years are all a nonsense. They're laughable. They even had to invent a law of Polity corruption unknown

throughout the rest of the world. Where's the real meat?

[slinky1876]

Thr Red Shirts are a spent force, even the offer of 2000 bahts and travel expenses could not bring the crowds that they wanted, all my Soi motor bike taxi drivers were in their usual spot on my Soi playing draughts and waiting for fares, I asked them if they were going to the rally and they all said they were bored with it... only Issan farmers and crowds from the North came this time for the pay and a trip to Bangkok paid for by Mr Thaksin again.... pathetic politics . If you think this is anything like a 50,000 football crowd I would like to ask which team you support that has 50,000 in attendance... I am a Glasgow Celtic supporter and we know what a 90,000 crowd is like at every home game, This Red Shirt gathering was pathetic, the same as the Million man march.. are these the same thugs that set fire to Bangkok on their last "peaceful" protest. The lights are on but no-one is home.....Duhhh.... Rock on Abhisit, you will romp the next election if this is your opposition....Amazing Thailand.

Great mate, I am going to take your post to heart and really think about the points that you have emphasised. But how can I take you seriously when you don't even know the true facts about your football team. Last time I checked, Celtic Park only holds 60,000. So can you please explain where the 90,000 comes from. Do the Celtic fans watch the game Thai style, 2 to a seat or something.

Edited January 10, 2011 by slinky1876

[CrankyCarrot]

I have no idea how to do a headcount in a crowd of thousands, but I was there last night and it felt like a lot of people. Everywhere I went, the crowd just got thicker and thicker. I wanted to get out of there, but it was like that scene in Matrix Reloaded with all the Agent Smiths swarming. Too bad I'm not as agile as Neo, or I coulda just leaped over their heads. Serves me right for doing my tech shopping at Panthip on protest day.

[djlest]

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE - But the same old story...

well...

recently, i have seen things through different perspective... towards the reds at least...

i went up to isarn for the new year and the wifes brother was on his death bed after a nasty dose of menigitus.

to my suprise...

10 govmnt officials (REDS) walked into the hospital to see him, and offered that if he recovered not to worry about transport home, they would take him.

The sick guy is only a farmer i might add. no one of high rank...

but apparently this happens all the time, and these small acts of kindness are what is winning the hearts of the RED RURAL supporters all over...

So its not just the handouts of 1000 baht's here and there, and a few subsidized tractors or vehicles...

It seems to me the REDS do make a difference up there - when i asked what the opposition do, they replied they don't do a thing - only look after BKK...

And thats where this hatred stems from... If the current Govmnt made a change or more effort - well... perhaps the THAI FACE means they wont ever step on Taksins soil..

The REDS have really won the hearts, and continue to do so through these small acts of (whether genuine or for alterior motives) kindness for votes!!!

and that is the strategy Taksin is still pushing right now...

but lets not forget...

HOW QUICK THAIS FORGET - Especially the Northerners...

But Bangkok should not forget so fast the events of last year...it was a very dark time indeed...

whilst the above facts did make me look at things with a different perspective towards the reds motives - i will never support the REDS - regardless of anything...

In my eyes the latest red shirt demonstrators are just being used by Taksin and the powers that be, to bring them power, and in no way is it for any other reason...

they have big money and power to win... and the dust has settled and the blood washed from the streets...

Its round 2....

whilst there is nothing wrong in protesting, whatever your beliefs...

Taunting crowds into a frenzy, blocking roads, burning buildings, handing out weapons and causing a civil war...

There is absolutely no reason for this - unless it is was a Nazi regime - perhaps... but really...

There is nothing the current govnt does or does not that justifies that kind of destruction or violence...

and as i witness the entire event from about 50 meters from the red camp - and was parking my car each day in the army camp silom carpark... i got to see and feel both sides with all perspectives...

I have never seen a more peaceful and patient army and police during that time, how they managed to last 10 weeks was amazing with what was getting thrown at them...

in any other country the death rates would have been huge.

After speaking with the Army on a daily basis, The Thai army really did not want to shoot their brothers, as many of the reds were their own family or from the same villages, as they are draughted into the army by default, not always choice. Either way. the whole thing could have been avoided - if the protest did not block bangkoks business sector for 10 weeks... which was the Reds fault... no one elses...

The reds need a reality check, as the pied piper is whistling again, and those that follow with ignorance -

will destroy thailand after an already horrible 2010 full of problems... more red riots are not what Thailand needs right now...

But in support of the Reds (i have none) but in support of the Rural isarn dwellers who follow the reds...

The Govmnt should make more effort to assist the rural parts... they dont ask for much up there, just some help and to make them feel they are still a part of Thailand., and not the slaves to Bangkok's elite...

The current govnt... needs to make some big changes for 2011 - and pretty fast too...

Edited January 10, 2011 by djlest