What Happens If I Cannot Afford A Defence Lawyer?

[simon43]

The title says it all.

Some of you may know (from a story published Andrew Drummond), that my previous American employer in Thailand was exposed as a major US 'porn' baron, and I subsequently declined to continue my mobile phone application software work for him.

The outcome of this was that last July, he filed a charge of criminal fraud against me with the Pattaya police, citing an amount of about 90,000 baht.

The allegation is totally false, and defames me in both a personal and business capacity.(Those who know me personally will understand that it is not in my nature to "cheat" people). I guess that the charge was made in order to create problems for me in Thailand - which it certainly has done.

But such a charge causes major problems even prior to being able to defend myself in Court, such as having to post bail to avoid imprisonment, being forbidden to leave the country, racking up hundreds of thousands of baht in legal fees etc.

I have been fighting this case using my meager funds, and as the date of my initial Court appearance looms, I have exhausted my savings and am unable to afford the (continuing) and expensive fees of my lawyer. (It's more a problem of cash-flow, since I do have an income from my hotel/guesthouse business). I prefer not to go begging to friends for financial assistance

I have denied the charges from the start of this affair, and since the allegation is false, there is no evidence to prove my guilt.

Under these circumstances, it is possible for me to appear in the Court without lawyer representation? Would the Court appoint a lawyer for me? Is it a 'death-wish' to appear in Pattaya Criminal Court without a Thai lawyer?

Useful advice is appreciated.

Simon

[Loz]

have you spent more than 90,000 baht fighting this problem? If the implications of that question are not clear, I should point out that I am a pragmatist.

I'm all for fighting for one's honour where it makes sense. But if you've exhausted your funds which I am assuming to be greater than 90,000 baht (based on your business interests) I have to say you should take a less personal view and from a business standpoint recognise that settlement is and was the way to go. Console yourself with the adage, 'A lesson bought, is a lesson taught!"

Hope you can find the right solution for you. I don't believe you'll get any help from the state in appointing counsel for you in a civil matter. Not sure if you'd even get help in a criminal matter actually.

Time to rise above it?

[Loz]

Sorry, realising it is indeed a criminal matter, my advice is much simpler.

Settle, you doughnut!!

This was always the only avenue open to one of "limited" means. Your pride seems to have blinded you to this reality but now it must surely be staring you in the face or you wouldn't have sought the barrack room lawyer's advice.

Good luck and and God bless.

[simon43]

Settle is apparently not an option.

On 2 occasions prior to the Court proceedings, my accuser offered to withdraw all charges against me after he realised that I could sue him for defamation and for failure to pay my 3 months termination salary.

On both occasions I and my lawyer agreed

.. and on both occasions he subsequently withdraw his offer!

Once this criminal matter was registered, there is no option to settle, even if I wanted to. The matter is in the hands of the Court Prosecutor and even my accuser cannot withdraw the charge that he has made, even if he wanted to

Simon

[negreanu]

90k. Just pay it. End of case its hardly break the bank stuff is it.

Case can always be settled that is nonsense that it cannot be settled.

Edited January 10, 2011 by negreanu

[simon43]

Negreanu, you clearly have no knowledge of how the Thai criminal legal system works.

If I am accused of a crime, and my accuser refuses to withdraw the charge or to settle out of court, then the case must proceed to the Court, unless the Court Prosecutor decides that there is no case to answer.

In my case, an accusation of fraud has been made against me, and the Court Prosecutor has decided that such a charge cannot be ígnored'and therefore since the accuser will not withdraw the charge or settle out of court, the case must proceed.

Therefore, more useful advice is appreciated

Simon

[Beetlejuice]

Questions:

You say that your previous American employer in Thailand was exposed as a major US 'porn' baron.

Were you in anyway connected with that business which could be used against you in a criminal court?

Was you aware of your employer`s illegal activities while working for him?

The plantiff filed a criminal case of fraud against you. How, why and where does the accusation of fraud come into it?

If you are an innocent party and just a case that you withdrew your services after you discovered your employer was into illegal and unsavory activities, why don`t you simply tell the plantiff and his lawyer to get stuffed or do they`re worst as there is no case to answer against you?

My advice is, that if you are totally innocent of any criminal act then let the case go to court and pay nothing. If there is no case to answer, the prosecutor will probably throw the case out prior to any court proceedings.

If you are implicated with illegal goings on in anyway, then it must be left up to your discretion the most viable way possible out of your predicament.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[Soutpeel]

Negreanu, you clearly have no knowledge of how the Thai criminal legal system works.

If I am accused of a crime, and my accuser refuses to withdraw the charge or to settle out of court, then the case must proceed to the Court, unless the Court Prosecutor decides that there is no case to answer.

In my case, an accusation of fraud has been made against me, and the Court Prosecutor has decided that such a charge cannot be ígnored'and therefore since the accuser will not withdraw the charge or settle out of court, the case must proceed.

Therefore, more useful advice is appreciated

Simon

Simon, sorry to hear about your predicament, not knowing the specific in's and out's of the Thai court, but wouldnt legal costs be awarded to the "losing" party, therefore couldnt your current lawyer continue representing you on a "pro-bono" basis until the judgment comes down ??

Although both parties are Farangs, I would guess the court proceedings would be conducted in Thai, which would put you at a disadvantage if you had no Thai lawyer in court.

We all know that generally that all lawyers are bottom swimmers only interested in cash, but could you approach one of the "Farang" law companies in Pattaya and maybe get some assistance on "account"

Sorry bring anything solid to this question, but best of luck all the same

[PoorSucker]

Sue him for defamation.

Then settle that one with him by making him pay your lawyer costs.

Edited January 10, 2011 by PoorSucker

[Soutpeel]

If you are just an innocent party and just a case that you withdrew your services after you discovered your employer was into illegal and unsavory activities, why don`t you just tell the plantiff and his lawyer to get stuffed or do they`re worst as there is no case to answer against you?

Sorry to say this is the hands of the prosecutor now, telling the plantiff's lawyer to get stuffed is too late, as the charge is laid and its got to court, "Simon" now needs to answer the charges in court

[stander]

Do you have any assets in Thailand; as if you do then maybe you can put them up as surety?

[simon43]

Thanks to all for some useful advice.

To clarify:

My ex-employer has done nothing illegal (AFAIK). He operates legal adult businesses in the USA, but I did not want my name and business reputation to be associated with his dealings.

The software applications that I wrote for him (and which were generating about 4 million baht revenue per month), were completely legal health and fitness tips SMS subscription services for USA customers only, (not Thai).

I was legally employed with a WP, but we 'fell out' after he failed to award me a pay-rise that was used as a 'carrot' for me to work long hours to write the software. I subsequently read Mr Drummond's article about this guy and realised that it would not benefit me to be associated with him.

I have offered to 'settle' (settle meaning I will not sue him for defamation/salary if he drops his false charge), with this guy right from the time of the first accusation, but I

guess his reasons for filing the fraud charge are nothing to do with money, more sour grapes about me leaving his employ,

The actual charge is that I used some test software whilst working for him to 'benefit' another, un-named company, and that the costs for using this test software were therefore fraudalently paid by my ex-employer.

There is no evidence, no guilt on my part, but that does not mean that I can win my court case, (we are talking about a millionaire who is buddy with the Pattaya Mayor...)

Thai lawyers do not work probono, and there is no chance of me getting any of my costs/legal fees back from this guy, even if I win the case.

I will talk with my lawyer to see if they accept finance payments

[transam]

Sorry to read your plight chum. Reading all the facts and the fact that this guy has bundles of cash and high ranking friends it seems your on a sticky wicket. Obviously this guy can grease a few palms with no financial worry.

I truly wish you good luck and a solution. T/A

[Kwasaki]

Sue him for defamation.

Then settle that one with him by making him pay your lawyer costs.

This guy " Poorsucker " is on the money.

There must be some ex-solicitors on here and you have let this go for sometime by the sound of it.

Anything like this you should hit back with a counter claim for double straight away and in most cases the charges would be dropped.

Unless they have a legitimate claim on you, you should counter claim now, by doing nothing you are assumed to be in the wrong.

[Wallaby]

I'm not sure about Thai law but it would surprise me if costs are awarded to any party in a criminal case. However, if you came to an agreement etc I would imagine part of the agreement would be that he refuses to proceed with the charges, if he does that then the prosecutor has no Claimant to give evidence. As he is overseas I would doubt a thai court would go to the trouble to get him there. They'd probably just put it in the 'too hard' basket and drop the case with no Claimant to give evidence.

I woould do what the others have said, make a complaint about him, bring a civil case for defamation. Hopefully one will cancel the other. Good luck.

[simon43]

To clarify:

The guy is not overseas - he is an American living in Thailand and I was employed at his Pattaya office.

As soon as the charge was filed against me last July, my lawyer raised the threat of counter-charges and he offered to drop the charge against me - but then failed to honour this offer on 2 occasions - as if he was happy to waste my time and money, (which he probably was).

Legal cases move slowly in LoS, and my appearance in the Court later this month is my first opportunity to defend myself, but pre-trial costs have already hit over 500,000 baht.

This is not a question of pride on my part. This guy made a false criminal charge against me, and then let me and my lawyer 'dance about' while he offered to drop the charge, then withdrew his offer, then made a new offer, then withdrew that offer - all whilst I and my lawyer agreed on both occasions to his offers.

The Public Prosecutor has said that there is a case to answer, even though there seems to be no evidence. On the previous arranged meeting in the Prosecutor's office last month to discuss pretrial issues, I actually found that the meeting was cancelled, I languished in the jail under Pattaya Court House for a day, and the case was sent to Court without any pre-trial discussions with either me, my lawyer or the Court Prosecutor.

But my initial question is unanswered. Will the Court appoint a lawyer if the defendant does not have one?

Simon

[Chunky1]

So did the Thai government pursue charges against him?

[NanLaew]

I think the OP is opening a can of worms by revealing the details of this case before it goes to trial. If the simple basic question if a court-appointed lawyer could be appointed in a Thai criminal court was posted, maybe a direct answer would already have been given. Instead, we have punters googling up the original news article and asking questions about the OP's former employer. The OP has also thrown porn, loads of money and the local mayor in the mix for added interest!

Otherwise, ask a Mod to delete and expunge this thread. Then go to court and pay the 90,000 baht and hope that's the end of it. The guy is probably quite happy to now know that on top of the piss-ant 90k baht damages his lawyer dreamed up, the OP has blown a further half-mill defending himself against... what exactly? He has already said that he had bugger all to do with his former employers perfectly legal if somewhat less salubrious business endeavors. As stated, it's a sour grapes sort of mind-<deleted> frivolity that has gone further than the former employers (or his lawyers) wildest dreams could have imagined.

He won't get the half-mill but he will probably have a chuckle (with his lawyer) now that he knows the OP doesn't have it either.

However, revealing more and more details here on a public forum may be prejudicing something... or was that the OP's intention anyway?

PS. I think the OP's lawyer is dodgy.

Edited January 10, 2011 by NanLaew

[simon43]

So did the Thai government pursue charges against him?

What offence has he committed? If I am found not guilty of the charge against me, then I have been advised that charges will be filed by the Court against him, (for filing the original false charge). But I first have to wait for my day in Court..

[Wallaby]

I don't think a Not Guilty charge equates to a false charge, just means there wasn't enough evidence to convict you. Doesn't mean it was false.

Same as any criminal matter, you are not found 'innocent' you are found 'not guilty'. There is a difference.

Then again, I don't know Thai law.

[bobbin]

Simon.....

I think Loz alluded to this already, but.....

"Pride goeth before a fall".

Firstly , as soon as costs (lawyer?) passed the original 90K, and with the added incentive of a 1 day stay in the cells, you should have been looking to settle. As in "I surrender".

What did you think would happen? Up against money(less limited pockets than yours), and connections....

I guess you were trying to make a point when you "withdrew" your services but as you point out, your ex-employer was not doing anything illegal in the old porn business. You, however, took the moral high-road and quit/refused to honour your contract. Well, right or wrong, that's gonna cost you. 500K so far.

Start sending out the feelers that you're ready to call "uncle". Your lawyer contacts his if necessary, but better if you can speak directly. Extending the process only extends the loss.