Woman Beaten Unconscious On Phuket Beach

[LivinLOS]

I'm on Koh Chang, and here the bar owners pay the police to stay open late and and play loud annoying music until 3am when the law clearly says midnight!; or to look the other way if the farang bar owner doesn't have a work permit.

Would that be Koh Chang the marine park.. Meaning marine park where no alcohol is allowed to be sold

[Steely Dan]

I'm on Koh Chang, and here the bar owners pay the police to stay open late and and play loud annoying music until 3am when the law clearly says midnight!; or to look the other way if the farang bar owner doesn't have a work permit.

Would that be Koh Chang the marine park.. Meaning marine park where no alcohol is allowed to be sold

Perhaps they give a dispensation for Chang Lite.

[atsiii]

I'm on Koh Chang, and here the bar owners pay the police to stay open late and and play loud annoying music until 3am when the law clearly says midnight!; or to look the other way if the farang bar owner doesn't have a work permit.

Would that be Koh Chang the marine park.. Meaning marine park where no alcohol is allowed to be sold

Perhaps they give a dispensation for Chang Lite.

5555... yea, much of the island is National Park--mostly all inland, though, and a little Navy land down south in the Long Beach area. But from the ferry docks north, and then all the way around the north end and down the west coast--where most of the sand beaches are located--to the south end of the island near Bang Bao, it is typical Thai run-on tourist-oriented ocean front development. In that sense it's similar--but on a smaller scale and density--to most of the other better known tourist destination Thai islands.

[mickjn]

It is just not on,I hope the young lady gets better quick the guys get time in the monkey house.I bet they will not tell the other crims they are in for bashing the fruit lady

[SteeleJoe]

Corruption goes well beyond Thai police being paid to allow gunmen to get away with killing: sometimes they are the gunmen.

It goes beyond bar owners paying to be allowed to break a law (playing music too loud or staying open late) :bar owners (and other business operators) have to pay police just to open and stay open, even if they are not breaking laws or asking for any special treatment.

And if you want to talk about being allowed to sell aclohol on Koh Chang, it goes far beyond that -- and this is something to keep in mind for any of us who enjoy an occasional (or frequent) visit to Nana or Cowboy etc but (understandably) complain about corruption -- prostitution is illegal in Thailand. (But I've heard rumors there may be a bit of it going on here.)

[happyrobert]

The men also threw her fruit and money into the sea, he added.

Jing Jing!

Well, beating her to death is understandable....but stealing money, that would be reprehensible!

[cdnvic]

Three posts removed.

Enough is enough. Further attempts to name any establishment allegedly involved or arguing moderation will receive a suspension.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Lastly, please don't call Thailand cruel - nearby undemocratic Burma I can accept , but Thailand -NEVER!!!!!

Such a blind statement. You either need to get out more or perhaps just wake up. Surely you don't use Burma as a mark for everything?

Cruel, well thats just one of the words you could use to describe this place, its all a matter of opinion, theres certainly no shortage of cruel stuff going on all around the world & certainly no shortage of it here in Thailand.

Your statement, Thailand - Never!!!!!! makes me laugh , please remove eye shades/blinkers, re-assess & re-post

edit to say: PS: What a discusting act of cowardness on behalf of these gutless individuals.

I want to get the time to react fully to everyone who got upset about my original use of the little word 'cruel' to describe Thailand, because I used it seriousy and with much more in mind than 'only' the horrible case of the beaten fruit-seller....but for now, it is interesting to link this thread to this more recent one >>> http://www.thaivisa....oint-by-police/

Whether-or-not this story is 100% true and accurate, the links provided by members - one in particular - are highly thought-provoking

to say the least. These are the three basic requirements for a Civilized society: Open and Fair elections free from violence and financial manipulation; A Free Press and Media (completely free); An Honest and accountable Police Force and Judiciary free from corruption......cruelty, either actual physical, mental, or economic, will always exist where these requirements are absent, anywhere in the world....anyone want to say they ARE all present in LOS ? ( Even one of them ? ) Ok, but to call Thailand 'cruel' arguably requires all three of them to be absent .... ?

Edited January 13, 2011 by crazydrummerpauly

[Payboy]

Recently a resort owner in Bailan hit a NZ woman tourist over the head from the back and knocked her to the floor. She got up and fought back, biting and hitting him--so he called the police. When they showed up, without so much as questioning witnesses or the combatants, they arressted the woman--never charging her--took her passport, and then drover her around the island for 24 hours before dropping her off in White Sands. Can you guess who paid the police in that one? Probably not the tourist from NZ.

You mean she got away without paying? Thats great!

[JonathanMakins]

"Naming and shaming not permitted on this site"?? Oh please, give me a break! The papers are FULL of names and photos of suspects of crimes, large and small, even before they are convicted! Oh wait a bit - except for the 'puu yai' of course, who are above the law! We wouldn't want to forget who runs this country, would we?

[swillowbee]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

Edited January 13, 2011 by swillowbee

[marquess]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

No you have not overstated the case!

[SteeleJoe]

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

I personally think you have. But perhaps not by as much as many would think.

[InTransit]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

A very insightful post, thank you.

[rgs2001uk]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

No you have not overstated the case!

+1, an excellent observation and assessment, love the use of the word prai, no more need be said this alone sums up the whole country.

[JetsetBkk]

"Naming and shaming not permitted on this site"?? Oh please, give me a break! The papers are FULL of names and photos of suspects of crimes, large and small, even before they are convicted! Oh wait a bit - except for the 'puu yai' of course, who are above the law! We wouldn't want to forget who runs this country, would we?

Did you mention 'puu yai'?: The Puyai System is Disastrously Bad for Thailand

[MAJIC]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

A very insightful post, thank you.

NO, A very clear and rational Post, and Sadly all too True

Edited January 13, 2011 by MAJIC

[jayjay0]

Lastly, please don't call Thailand cruel - nearby undemocratic Burma I can accept , but Thailand -NEVER!!!!!

Such a blind statement. You either need to get out more or perhaps just wake up. Surely you don't use Burma as a mark for everything?

Cruel, well thats just one of the words you could use to describe this place, its all a matter of opinion, theres certainly no shortage of cruel stuff going on all around the world & certainly no shortage of it here in Thailand.

Your statement, Thailand - Never!!!!!! makes me laugh , please remove eye shades/blinkers, re-assess & re-post

edit to say: PS: What a discusting act of cowardness on behalf of these gutless individuals.

I want to get the time to react fully to everyone who got upset about my original use of the little word 'cruel' to describe Thailand, because I used it seriousy and with much more in mind than 'only' the horrible case of the beaten fruit-seller....but for now, it is interesting to link this thread to this more recent one >>> http://www.thaivisa....oint-by-police/

Whether-or-not this story is 100% true and accurate, the links provided by members - one in particular - are highly thought-provoking

to say the least. These are the three basic requirements for a Civilized society: Open and Fair elections free from violence and financial manipulation; A Free Press and Media (completely free); An Honest and accountable Police Force and Judiciary free from corruption......cruelty, either actual physical, mental, or economic, will always exist where these requirements are absent, anywhere in the world....anyone want to say they ARE all present in LOS ? ( Even one of them ? ) Ok, but to call Thailand 'cruel' arguably requires all three of them to be absent .... ?

A little harsh aren't you.

The last time I checked Antarctica was the only place that could live up[ to those statements. Ooops forgot no election or supreme court to over rule the results. dam_n

While I have to agree with you that a certain amount of all three of those qualities is needed I would like to say that perhaps when making judgments the culture be considered also. Just my opinion.

What I have said go's for all countries Believe it or not but Thailand is not alone in the boat.

Off topic but I was just wondering what other countries have as many foreigner move to it just to live in it.

I would say a lot more than move to the states just to live there. Most of them move there to get a job.

[SantiSuk]

The crime explosions in places like Phuket and Pattaya go on and many falang conclude that Thailand is a cesspit and they need to get out. Err - why not try some other parts of the other 99,999% of the land area of the country before running?

[swillowbee]

The crime explosions in places like Phuket and Pattaya go on and many falang conclude that Thailand is a cesspit and they need to get out. Err - why not try some other parts of the other 99,999% of the land area of the country before running?

... sorry SantiSuk, but I believe this is an example of broader Thai values ... the 'cultural' values ... this type of incident isn't isolated to a small beach community in Phuket.

... similar horrendous behaviors are perpetrated throughout this country ... c'mon, we read about them every single day in the major media ... but, much of this sort of behavior at the local, local level doesn't even merit mention by the press outside of major urban trade areas (where people read to get their information) ... take a look at my views above, more fully explained.

... think about it ... am I really missing something here? ... is Thailand closer to being a Somalia, or a Sweden? ... and by how many degrees off is Thailand from either end of that spectrum?

... but ... the real proof in this, is whether ANYTHING happens to the soulless, unblinking animals who beat this lowly fruit vendor, with a barely human status in the eyes of the Thai cultural values ... would YOU care to make a significant wager on that? ... I think no Thai, who knows the real Thailand, would.

... let's wait and watch, what do you say? ... let that prove, or disprove, my thesis on Thailand's inferior cultural values.

Edited January 14, 2011 by swillowbee

[yellow1red1]

I am constantly amazed at people trying to white wash the most evil behaviour using various methods, most common being, it happens everywhere. Im sorry but in Canada we do not have a culture of 6 men beating on a lone woman, we simply do not, you might find one lone crazy that is capable at any one time but 6 men together all sharing the same evil outlook on life and perpetrating in public with no shame whatsoever? Not a common event like it is here. There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country.

"There is a basic sense of right and wrong that is simply completely missing in this country." ... you cannot be more correct ... Thais are not wired like those from socially and spiritually enlightened societies.

... I've have been here more than a decade now, where I have lived and worked very closely with Thais ... professional, highly educated and well-travelled Thais, and the unfortunate upcountry prai who labor at the bottom of a truly foul feudal system ... I've raised abandoned Thai kids, and dealt with the nightmares that pass as their wretched families ... I think I know Thais ... quite well.

... as you, I don't see this as another isolated incident ... this behavior is pervasive, a consequence of a broader system of values ... I have struggled a great deal with Thailand and conclude that the root of it's problems emanate from it's cultural values ... how a nation is characterized, as a people, can all be attributed to it's cultural values ... developed over generations ... sustained by the momentum and collective will of the institutions under which the nation is organized ... it's systems of politics, bureaucracy, commerce, laws, religion, education, powerful families, etc.

... Thais true nature is difficult to see by most passers-by ... one of these cultural values itself, that perpetrates the misunderstanding of Thai true nature, is to conceal uncomfortable truths behind insincere wais and smiles (great material for tourism advertisements), belieing the reality of their lot ... we see this daily, all around us.

... this incident is shameful, and draws a lot of fire, but it is not really so uncommon an event for those of us who have gotten an up-close view into the lives of the common Thais ... they comprise the overwhelming majority of this enigmatic nation.

... my belief is that Thai cultural values are inferior ... by any broadly accepted standards of decent, humane behavior ... it is a strong statement, and one I do not make lightly ... I've seen a lot of this world, having lived in 10 countries, so make that statement with some sense of perspective ... I understand tribal, survivalist values ... they are instinctive and without soul and conscience.

... Thailand is at best standing still in its societal evolution ... worse, is that it might well be moving backwards, toward behaviors commonly accepted in Sub-Saharan Africa.

... my greater sadness, is that there appears no Thai institution strong enough, or motivated, to resist this social decay that is eating at the very guts of this nation.

... a very thin veneer, appearing as modernity and civility, seems to sustain Thailand's image to those who have not scratched beneath the surface ... but, it seems to me that Thailand is in an inexorible spiral, returning to a primitive, less civil, less humane form of society.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western Civilization, he said, "That would be a good idea!"

Where did Thailand get its culture and problems from?

sex trade, the West

youth yaba problems, the West

broken/twisted politics system, the West

Nothing bad happens in Canada? that is a joke!

In this case, was the father some kind of a hero for sending his girl back again after death threats?

[SantiSuk]

The crime explosions in places like Phuket and Pattaya go on and many falang conclude that Thailand is a cesspit and they need to get out. Err - why not try some other parts of the other 99,999% of the land area of the country before running?

... sorry SantiSuk, but I believe this is an example of broader Thai values ... the 'cultural' values ... this type of incident isn't isolated to a small beach community in Phuket.

... similar horrendous behaviors are perpetrated throughout this country ... c'mon, we read about them every single day in the major media ... but, much of this sort of behavior at the local, local level doesn't even merit mention by the press outside of major urban trade areas (where people read to get their information) ... take a look at my views above, more fully explained.

... think about it ... am I really missing something here? ... is Thailand closer to being a Somalia, or a Sweden? ... and by how many degrees off is Thailand from either end of that spectrum?

... but ... the real proof in this, is whether ANYTHING happens to the soulless, unblinking animals who beat this lowly fruit vendor, with a barely human status in the eyes of the Thai cultural values ... would YOU care to make a significant wager on that? ... I think no Thai, who knows the real Thailand, would.

... let's wait and watch, what do you say? ... let that prove, or disprove, my thesis on Thailand's inferior cultural values.

If you live outside Phuket, Pattaya or Bangkok then I'll accept your opinions as valid. If your direct experiences are from these towns then I think your views may have been distorted.

I live in Issaan. Yes there is a young man gang thing around that can lead to occasional murders even in the villages (smacks of Teddy Boy violence in the fifties in England). I saw this first hand in Nakhon Phanom province one time, so no way am I blinded by some kind of sentimental attachment to village culture. But the collective violence endemic in the population as a cultural vice? Endemic tendency to mafia-like organisations - way OTT and I certainly do not walk around here with one eye over my shoulder in some areas, as I would in those three places or in my home town in England. I still go to all four and would not consider leaving the country because there are problems.

Sure - I'm not arguing against the endemic high and low level corruption. The average Issaan dweller is sickened by it but they collectively reinforce it by adopting a mai pen lai stance.

Don't know about Somalia but I do know a bit about South Africa and Brazil. Thailand is nearer to Sweden.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything - there's a lot wrong here and corruption is its fountainhead. But I just don't get the 'abandon ship' rationale.

Edited January 14, 2011 by SantiSuk

[waza]

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

I personally think you have. But perhaps not by as much as many would think.

I agree with your statements.Thailand is a country of fractured societal groups; it lacks universal leadership and social cohesion. This is perpetuated by the feudal system which organizes its people into social status groups, with differing rights, responsibilities and accountabilities, based mainly on wealth and power. It indoctrinates new members through the institutions of socialization such as, government, education, legal/ judicial, family, mass media and religion. But more than this it promotes the division of people into differing, regional, political, financial, employment, racial and ethnic groups. Each group has its own organized social status and has little respect for the rights, moral and mores of the other group of the same perceived status level. Self interests and status promotion is the main concern of all the groups and a requirement for all members to remain part of that group. It is designed to maintain the status quo and punishes and rewards by the losing and gaining of face by individuals and groups. This system is placates international condemnation with a facade of democracy. With this in mind is the little wonder why Thais treat others, of equal or lower status with little respect or outright distain. Why they can commit acts that a westerner would find morally incomprehensible without fear of legal or social punishment. The evidence is all around us, reds verses yellows, the southern insurgency, school students fighting differing school student and restaurant thugs beating fruit ladies. This is a society in decay; de-evolving and it will only get worse. Westerners and other nationalities are a disenfranchised groups in Thailand and are only respected for the amount of wealth they can generate, their only power is international condemnation causing a national loss of face. Therefore, they are a soft target for corruption and worse from all groups.

Edited January 14, 2011 by waza

[MJP]

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

I personally think you have. But perhaps not by as much as many would think.

Thailand is a country of fractured societal groups; it lacks universal leadership and social cohesion. This is perpetuated by the feudal system which organizes its people into social status groups, with differing rights, responsibilities and accountabilities, based mainly on wealth and power. It indoctrinates new members through the institutions of socialization such as, government, education, legal/ judicial, family, mass media and religion. But more than this it promotes the division of people into differing, regional, political, financial, employment, racial and ethnic groups. Each group has its own organized social status and has little respect for the rights, moral and mores of the other group of the same perceived status level. Self interests and status promotion is the main concern of all the groups and a requirement for all members to remain part of that group. It is designed to maintain the status quo and punishes and rewards by the losing and gaining of face by individuals and groups. This system is placates international condemnation with a facade of democracy. With this in mind is the little wonder why Thais treat others, of equal or lower status with little respect or outright distain. Why they can commit acts that a westerner would find morally incomprehensible without fear of legal or social punishment. The evidence is all around us, reds verses yellows, the southern insurgency, school students fighting differing school student and restaurant thugs beating fruit ladies. This is a society in decay; de-evolving and it will only get worse.

Sounds like somewhere I know. Only without the blue skies and tropical weather.

[swillowbee]

The crime explosions in places like Phuket and Pattaya go on and many falang conclude that Thailand is a cesspit and they need to get out. Err - why not try some other parts of the other 99,999% of the land area of the country before running?

... sorry SantiSuk, but I believe this is an example of broader Thai values ... the 'cultural' values ... this type of incident isn't isolated to a small beach community in Phuket.

... similar horrendous behaviors are perpetrated throughout this country ... c'mon, we read about them every single day in the major media ... but, much of this sort of behavior at the local, local level doesn't even merit mention by the press outside of major urban trade areas (where people read to get their information) ... take a look at my views above, more fully explained.

... think about it ... am I really missing something here? ... is Thailand closer to being a Somalia, or a Sweden? ... and by how many degrees off is Thailand from either end of that spectrum?

... but ... the real proof in this, is whether ANYTHING happens to the soulless, unblinking animals who beat this lowly fruit vendor, with a barely human status in the eyes of the Thai cultural values ... would YOU care to make a significant wager on that? ... I think no Thai, who knows the real Thailand, would.

... let's wait and watch, what do you say? ... let that prove, or disprove, my thesis on Thailand's inferior cultural values.

If you live outside Phuket, Pattaya or Bangkok then I'll accept your opinions as valid. If your direct experiences are from these towns then I think your views may have been distorted.

I live in Issaan. Yes there is a young man gang thing around that can lead to occasional murders even in the villages (smacks of Teddy Boy violence in the fifties in England). I saw this first hand in Nakhon Phanom province one time, so no way am I blinded by some kind of sentimental attachment to village culture. But the collective violence endemic in the population as a cultural vice? Endemic tendency to mafia-like organisations - way OTT and I certainly do not walk around here with one eye over my shoulder in some areas, as I would in those three places or in my home town in England. I still go to all four and would not consider leaving the country because there are problems.

Sure - I'm not arguing against the endemic high and low level corruption. The average Issaan dweller is sickened by it but they collectively reinforce it by adopting a mai pen lai stance.

Don't know about Somalia but I do know a bit about South Africa and Brazil. Thailand is nearer to Sweden.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything - there's a lot wrong here and corruption is its fountainhead. But I just don't get the 'abandon ship' rationale.

... I am the first to caution that generalizations, as I've made, are risky ... but, I stand by my rationale ... while I do not live upcountry, as you, I have over the last decade+ spent much time in the rural villages helping where I can ... along the way, I've taken on the fostering of 4 abandoned Thai children, whose wretched families still lurk (and periodically threaten) on the fringes of our lives, and who we cannot completely escape ... so, I get it, SantiSuk ... I get it pretty good.

... there are exceptions to my inferior Thai culture theory, and I've benefitted by their help ... but, I dare anyone to go into any Thai community and not cite the sort of reprehensible behavior in that community's recent past that was purpetrated on that Phuket beach ... pedophilia, incest, pimping daughters, child abandonment, soulless assaults on the defenseless ... and the Thais avert their eyes and avoid it altogether ... along with these more incidious behaviors are the generally accepted day-to-day Thai lifestyle values of stealing, lying, indemic corruption (deep to the bones corruption), avoiding responsibility, laziness, childlike denial of reality, greed, alcoholism, irresponsible parenting, and on, and on, and on.

... now, this happens in modern, enlightened nations, sure ... but, in my experience, not as pervasively as I witness here ... and that is part of my point ... cultural values pervade a population, and are either actively endorsed, or passively accepted, by the entire population ... cultural values are promugated broadly by the community members and institutions in whose best interest they benefit ... pretty feudal, eh? ... does that sound even a little like Thailand?

... you cite corruption as the problem ... I cite corruption as the symptom of the far greater problem... shared cultural values ... the problem is evidenced by the overwhelming mai pen rai attitude you correctly identify ... that is a reflection of Thai cultural values ... truth, fairness, honesty, integrity, generosity, defense of the innocent, responsibility, forgiveness, bravery, nobility, compassion, ethics, faithfulness, sacrifice, commitment, spiritual standing, morality, magnanimity, selflessness ... simple ... common ... decency ... the humanity separating us from animals and tribes that will without conscience destroy all about them to assure that their own offspring survive and breed ... however you choose to characterize a culture ... how do Thai values stack up against the list I choose as a measure of a culture's true richness?

... I am handicapped in that I haven't the greater knowledge of sociology... but, I am also advantaged in that I am blessed with an upbringing in a family and an enlightened culture where values have meaning and high worth ... Thailand would be a fascinating study by a qualified forensic sociologist, trained to see the evolution of Thai cultural values and how it has arrived at where it is ... what a great graduate thesis (although, it could never be written by a candidate planning to live in Thailand).

... how is it that cultural values evolved from our Western fuedal system to produce societies that generally serve to improve the quality of lives for all those who live within them? ... what prevents Thailand (and, many other cultures) from making that same leap? ... I wish I could know more.

... as for 'abandoning ship' ... yes, I would, SantiSuk ... except that I committed to the lives of kids to whom I promised that I would never abandon ... were they not in my life, yes, I would go ... I believe the quality of my life would be better in many countries other than Thailand ... I believe Thailand is a failing culture (by the standards of any modern, enlightened society), and I see no Thai institution with the capability, or more importantly the will, to prevent it from "Slouching Toward Gomorrah" (apologies to Robert Bork).

... move over Burma, here we come.

Edited January 14, 2011 by swillowbee

[waza]

The crime explosions in places like Phuket and Pattaya go on and many falang conclude that Thailand is a cesspit and they need to get out. Err - why not try some other parts of the other 99,999% of the land area of the country before running?

... sorry SantiSuk, but I believe this is an example of broader Thai values ... the 'cultural' values ... this type of incident isn't isolated to a small beach community in Phuket.

... similar horrendous behaviors are perpetrated throughout this country ... c'mon, we read about them every single day in the major media ... but, much of this sort of behavior at the local, local level doesn't even merit mention by the press outside of major urban trade areas (where people read to get their information) ... take a look at my views above, more fully explained.

... think about it ... am I really missing something here? ... is Thailand closer to being a Somalia, or a Sweden? ... and by how many degrees off is Thailand from either end of that spectrum?

... but ... the real proof in this, is whether ANYTHING happens to the soulless, unblinking animals who beat this lowly fruit vendor, with a barely human status in the eyes of the Thai cultural values ... would YOU care to make a significant wager on that? ... I think no Thai, who knows the real Thailand, would.

... let's wait and watch, what do you say? ... let that prove, or disprove, my thesis on Thailand's inferior cultural values.

If you live outside Phuket, Pattaya or Bangkok then I'll accept your opinions as valid. If your direct experiences are from these towns then I think your views may have been distorted.

I live in Issaan. Yes there is a young man gang thing around that can lead to occasional murders even in the villages (smacks of Teddy Boy violence in the fifties in England). I saw this first hand in Nakhon Phanom province one time, so no way am I blinded by some kind of sentimental attachment to village culture. But the collective violence endemic in the population as a cultural vice? Endemic tendency to mafia-like organisations - way OTT and I certainly do not walk around here with one eye over my shoulder in some areas, as I would in those three places or in my home town in England. I still go to all four and would not consider leaving the country because there are problems.

Sure - I'm not arguing against the endemic high and low level corruption. The average Issaan dweller is sickened by it but they collectively reinforce it by adopting a mai pen lai stance.

Don't know about Somalia but I do know a bit about South Africa and Brazil. Thailand is nearer to Sweden.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything - there's a lot wrong here and corruption is its fountainhead. But I just don't get the 'abandon ship' rationale.

... I am the first to caution that generalizations, as I've made, are risky ... but, I stand by my rationale ... while I do not live upcountry, as you, I have over the last decade+ spent much time in the rural villages helping where I can ... along the way, I've taken on the fostering of 4 abandoned Thai children, whose wretched families still lurk (and periodically threaten) on the fringes of our lives, and who we cannot completely escape ... so, I get it, SantiSuk ... I get it pretty good.

... there are exceptions to my inferior Thai culture theory, and I've benefitted by their help ... but, I dare anyone to go into any Thai community and not cite the sort of reprehensible behavior in that community's recent past that was purpetrated on that Phuket beach ... pedophilia, incest, pimping daughters, child abandonment, soulless assaults on the defenseless ... and the Thais avert their eyes and avoid it altogether ... along with these more incidious behaviors are the generally accepted day-to-day Thai lifestyle values of stealing, lying, indemic corruption (deep to the bones corruption), avoiding responsibility, laziness, childlike denial of reality, greed, alcoholism, irresponsible parenting, and on, and on, and on.

... now, this happens in modern, enlightened nations, sure ... but, in my experience, not as pervasively as I witness here ... and that is part of my point ... cultural values pervade a population, and are either actively endorsed, or passively accepted, by the entire population ... cultural values are promugated broadly by the community members and institutions in whose best interest they benefit ... pretty feudal, eh? ... does that sound even a little like Thailand?

... you cite corruption as the problem ... I cite corruption as the symptom of the far greater problem... shared cultural values ... the problem is evidenced by the overwhelming mai pen rai attitude you correctly identify ... that is a reflection of Thai cultural values ... truth, fairness, honesty, integrity, generousity, defense of the innocent, responsibility, forgiveness, bravery, nobility, compassion, ethics, faithfulness, sacrifice, commitment, spiritual standing, morality, magnanimity, selflessness ... simple ... common ... decency ... the humanity separating us from animals and tribes that will without conscience destroy all about them to assure that their own offspring survive and breed ... however you choose to characterize a culture ... how do Thai values stack up against the list I choose as a measure of a culture's true richness?

... I am handicapped in that I haven't the greater knowledge of sociology... but, I am also advantaged in that I am blessed with an upbringing in a family and an enlightened culture where values have meaning and high worth ... Thailand would be a fascinating study by a qualified forensic sociologist, trained to see the evolution of Thai cultural values and how it has arrived at where it is ... what a great graduate thesis (although, it could never be written by a candidate planning to live in Thailand).

... how is it that cultural values evolved from our Western fuedal system to produce societies that generally serve to improve the quality of lives for all those who live within them? ... what prevents Thailand (and, many other cultures) from making that same leap? ... I wish I could know more.

... as for 'abandoning ship' ... yes, I would, SantiSuk ... except that I committed to the lives of kids to whom I promised that I would never abandon ... were they not in my life, yes, I would go ... I believe the quality of my life would be better in many countries other than Thailand ... I believe Thailand is a failing culture (by the standards of any modern, enlightened society), and I see no Thai institution with the capability, or more importantly the will, to prevent it from "Slouching Toward Gomorrah" (apologies to Robert Bork).

... move over Burma, here we come.

Well said.....

[crazydrummerpauly]

To the routine annoyance of people within ear-shot, I can normally talk for England,

but this report, assuming it is totally accurate, makes me speechless with gloom and

sorrow.

Anyone else having second/third/fourth....thoughts about living in this cruel land ?

(given the endless stream of bad-news....perhaps just stop reading TV altogether.)

And before anyone jumps up with the usual: Bad things happen everywhere, even

in cuddly England...absolutely right....but I bet you cannot come up with any story of

a gang descending on and beating a lone woman for trying to sell a few items of fruit ?

Behind all the gold decor, posing in pastel shirts, and quaint mannerisms, Cruel LOS ?

No your right... this kind of shit just doesn't happen in England or the U.S. ... we are far too civilised for groups of men to be beating the shit out of defenseless women for something as petty as selling goods on someone elses supposed turf.

But doing it for fun..now that's a different matter..

Heres a little selection it took me all of 10 seconds to find...

http://www.createpea...manmurdered.htm

http://www.theargus....ver_work_again/

http://www.topix.com...TNDJ7QUMN101RSI

By all means be disgusted at what happened to this woman...undoubtedly these guys are scum...but don't give it the self righteous 'this shit don't happen back home' nonsense, because it does and far worse...And if you watch some of the documentaries on Chinese cockle pickers on the beaches of England the exact same shit happens ...

Your post is interesting, especially the links to violence in the UK - which was energetically investigated by the appropriate agencies. But your post is not an accurate answer to mine. I cannot see the point of your links at all, given that I had already said: "Bad things happen...even in cuddly England...absolutely right". So quoting bad things at me was a waste of time and not logical. I challenged everyone to come up with an account of a commercially-motivated, organised gang of men beating a lone women unconscious just for competing with them a little by selling a few items of fruit. You and nobody else has done that. As for your parting shot - the reference to Chinese cockle-pickers - well, their overriding disaster was caused by a lack of local knowledge about dangerous tidal flows - the violence that they caught up in was a gang-on-gang fracass between rival cockle-picking groups - pretty sure there was no lone cockle-picking woman set upon by anyone ? The loose phrase: "the exact same shit happens" says it all....in a way, what i was asking for was precisely that, the "same shit" of a lone woman selling fruit being attacked by a cowardly group of men who saw her as a slight commercial rival. I'm still waiting for this "same shit" having happened in England. Note: citations about other countries are irrelevant to my invitation.

[SteeleJoe]

Where did Thailand get its culture and problems from?

sex trade, the West

youth yaba problems, the West

broken/twisted politics system, the West

That is unbelievably ignorant and inaccurate it almost takes my breath away. You, my friend, are colossally misinformed (and such a stereotypical self-loathing westerner and romanticizer (sic) of the developing world -- there's millions like you; I bet you think Asians are inherently more enlightened -- or would be if it weren't for the nastycolonizers and cultural imperialists...)

Edited January 14, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Kernow86]

Any news on this?? Anyone?

[futureexpat10]

I looked through all the online newspapers from Phuket and only one even had an article about her that I could find. No news about her condition however.

One paper, www.phuketgazette.net, has a forum but no one has named the restaurant. One person seems familiar with the restaurant and included his email address, so he may tell you privately. I would ask but Phuket was my least favorite place in Thailand so I don't intend to go back there.

Spent eight years in and out of Thailand-mostly up north.

Great country,beautiful people but something is definitely wrong with the place.

I left four years ago when it became abundantly clear that those of us that legitimately spent their disposable income in the country were being treated less than proper.

Bye bye Thailand.

There are much better places and people to enjoy.

Max, I live in the states and plan to move to Thailand in the near future, but now that I'm learning more about the violence I'm rethinking Thailand and am open to considering other countries. Can you provide information about which countries are high on your list and not too costly? PM is fine since it's a bit off topic.

Thanks.