Pool Leaking

[Big Gary]

I have a small tiled pool(above ground) 4x4x1.5 and it leaks. I have regrouted a couple of times but it still leaks.(only slightly). I am using normal grout used in bathroom tiles etc. What type of grout should I use and where can I get it? Is there a type of sealant that I can paint on?

[PoolDoctor]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

[excaliber]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

[Big Gary]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

Thanks guys for the info. My small pool is above ground and the only piping is to my Filter Pump so thats not the problem. It must be the Grout as the guy who built the pool maybe mixed it wrong. What I will do is grind out the old grout and put in new grout. Hopfully that will fix it.

[acht72]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

Thanks guys for the info. My small pool is above ground and the only piping is to my Filter Pump so thats not the problem. It must be the Grout as the guy who built the pool maybe mixed it wrong. What I will do is grind out the old grout and put in new grout. Hopfully that will fix it.

[acht72]

Evaporation mate. stand a full bucket of water next to your pool and see how much it goes down over a few days

[Naam]

Evaporation mate. stand a full bucket of water next to your pool and see how much it goes down over a few days

BINGO!

[Chaichara]

Grout is never a barrier. If it's a concrete construction the barriers are :

1. Tile adhesive: proper water barrier tile adhesive for swimming pools should be used, and it should be spread evenly ensuring that it completely covrs the concrete. Brand: Weber

2. Concrete: the concrete for walls and floor should be mixed with a waterproofing additive.

3. Rubber water-stop strip should be installed at the join between the walls and the floor prior to casting the concrete.

4. Silicone sealant under the flanges of the skimmer, the ports that return the water to the pool, under the flange of the vacuum port, and around the conduit where it enters the recesses for the lights.

For durability however, a good quality grout should be used, one designed specifically for use in ver wet situations, and premixed with fungicide;

[spshop]

You can get epoxy grout from home mart the brand name Weber. 100% water proof and if you don't have a valve on the backwash line after the multiport valve install one as this could be a problem too.

[PoolDoctor]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

We have regrouted hundreds of pools, and in our experience grout is not and should not be entrusted as a water barrier. It is virtually impossible to ensure perfect coverage between the tiles to prevent water at least getting in to touch the substrate. This is why it is not a barrier to water, and if you argue otherwise I would say you have litle practical or field experience. Additives like sealers (Lanko, etc) also also woefully unreliable. If you cannot rely on a 20cm wall pour, how on earth do you think you can rely on a 2 or 3mm thick layer of soft grout? Crazy.

Also, draining is required to seal the pipes inside the pool before pressure testing. Simply screwing down the floor returns is unreliable, and will not withstand 30psi for 48 hours reliably, to give an indication of pipe integrity. The only way to properly and reliably pressure test a pool is to cap off the piping with pipe caps properly affixed with pipe adhesive. Once tested, the caps are chiseled off, and the floor returns re installed.

Please don't mislead users here. Our responses are based on hundreds of pools, with 3 underway at the moment.

Gil

[PoolDoctor]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

Thanks guys for the info. My small pool is above ground and the only piping is to my Filter Pump so thats not the problem. It must be the Grout as the guy who built the pool maybe mixed it wrong. What I will do is grind out the old grout and put in new grout. Hopfully that will fix it.

If the filter is a sand filter, and has a multi-port value, check the spider gasket. Sometimes, that gasket leaks and water is lost out the drain pipe...

Gil

[spshop]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

Grout IS a barrier if the proper ingredients are mixed with the grout, as well as grout sealers.

Poorly constructed walls of the pool without the proper admix can also result in cracks.

You can pressure test the pipes without having to drain the pool.

Don't always listen to the doctor.........

Thanks guys for the info. My small pool is above ground and the only piping is to my Filter Pump so thats not the problem. It must be the Grout as the guy who built the pool maybe mixed it wrong. What I will do is grind out the old grout and put in new grout. Hopfully that will fix it.

If the filter is a sand filter, and has a multi-port value, check the spider gasket. Sometimes, that gasket leaks and water is lost out the drain pipe...

Gil

Gil, you are always and still are full of BS hundred's of pools ha! how long have you been doing this in Thailand? and valve is a good way to slove problems before you work out what a spider gasket is and employ a POOL GUY to sell you something which could last for a few more years.

[excaliber]

Grout is never a barrier to water. If the pool is leaking, almost 90% of the time, its in the piping. Every now and then, we get a structural leak, but this is extremely rare even in the worst possible construction. Best to drain, pressure test all piping works.

Best,

Gil

According to the OP, the pipes aren't the problem, so that leaves you with 10% credibility.

In response to your statement, "If you cannot rely on a 20cm wall pour, how on earth do you think you can rely on a 2 or 3mm thick layer of soft grout? Crazy.". An epoxy based grout will seal the joints if properly done. A 3mm layer of epoxy is very strong, waterproof and non-porous; unlike the 20cm wall.

If the pool was built and finished properly it wouldn't need re-grouting, as in the hundreds you claim to have done. Perhaps you were the original pool builder as well...keeps the workers busy and creates an endless income. You kinda resemble the Clinic doctors who pass out antibiotics to young kids who have runny noses and your posts seem to be an attempt to support your superior knowledge and name in case one of your past or present clients happen to read this forum.

"There's more than one way to skin a cat", Your way isn't the only way just because you use the name "Doctor".......and as far as water evaporation, I wouldn't put much weight on that one during the winter months.

[Valentine]

You can get epoxy grout from home mart the brand name Weber. 100% water proof and if you don't have a valve on the backwash line after the multiport valve install one as this could be a problem too.

The first thing I look at is the backwash line because if the multiport valve has been turned while the pump is running it can damage the spider gasket thus allowing a small flow of water to go out the backwash line while the multiport valve is set to filter. There is usually a sight glass where you can see if this is the case or not. As another poster said evaporation is also a factor.

[PoolDoctor]

Gil, you are always and still are full of BS hundred's of pools ha! how long have you been doing this in Thailand? and valve is a good way to slove problems before you work out what a spider gasket is and employ a POOL GUY to sell you something which could last for a few more years.

? We build, renovate or install about 35 pools a year. We started 7 years ago, so do the math. We also have hundreds of references, including Russian Embassy, Northpoint, International schools, The River, Grand Condotel, Raffine, etc., perhaps you could identify yourself rather than hide behind a psuedonym. I would be interested to see who is accusing me of being full of BS.

[Big Gary]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I am sorry it turned out to be a slinging match between a couple of guys.

Big Gary

[PoolDoctor]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I am sorry it turned out to be a slinging match between a couple of guys.

Big Gary

No harm on my side; the bucket test is a good idea, to determine if its actually leaking, or simple evaporation. You might not have a leak after all! When it comes to evaporation, there really is no "standard" rate - it depends on surface area, humidity, wind rate that day, sunlight exposure, etc. The bucket test though, will give you a good comparison.

Gil

[PoolPro]

This is the procedure to test for a leak:

1. Determine the amount of evaporation by doing a bucket test. If its not evaporation then continue

2. Turn off all pool equipment and wait for water level to go down. This will work if the level is dropping fast. It will stop dropping level when it hits the point its leaking from. Ususally a pipe in the wall. The level th water stops at will identify which pipe is leaking.

3. If it doesnt lose water when the equipment is off, then its probably a leak in the pipework leading from the pool to the equipment. If you are getting air in the pump, then its a suction leak between skimmer and pump. If there is no air in the pump, then its a leak in the return piping.

To test for a pipe leak, either do a pressure test on the individual line concerned, or do a sonar test to 'hear' the leak.

If you still have problems post a question on domainpools dot com dot au in their forum page

[lufc74]

This is the procedure to test for a leak:

1. Determine the amount of evaporation by doing a bucket test. If its not evaporation then continue

2. Turn off all pool equipment and wait for water level to go down. This will work if the level is dropping fast. It will stop dropping level when it hits the point its leaking from. Ususally a pipe in the wall. The level th water stops at will identify which pipe is leaking.

3. If it doesnt lose water when the equipment is off, then its probably a leak in the pipework leading from the pool to the equipment. If you are getting air in the pump, then its a suction leak between skimmer and pump. If there is no air in the pump, then its a leak in the return piping.

To test for a pipe leak, either do a pressure test on the individual line concerned, or do a sonar test to 'hear' the leak.

If you still have problems post a question on domainpools dot com dot au in their forum page

Hi,

We have a problem with our pool, and would like to know how you do compare the loss of water from a small bucket to loss of water from a 8 x 4 pool.

Obviously i'm wrong, but i would have thought the bucket would have lost a lot more than the pool over the same period.

For your info, we are losing about 5mm /day, obviously the measurements were done on a dry day, broken cloud and sun.

Any help or info would be appreciated.

Cheers....

[Crossy]

Hi,

We have a problem with our pool, and would like to know how you do compare the loss of water from a small bucket to loss of water from a 8 x 4 pool.

Obviously i'm wrong, but i would have thought the bucket would have lost a lot more than the pool over the same period.

For your info, we are losing about 5mm /day, obviously the measurements were done on a dry day, broken cloud and sun.

Any help or info would be appreciated.

Cheers....

Actually all other things being equal the bucket and pool will evaporate at the same rate, losing water volume proportional to their surface area.

Get a bucket.

Fill it with water to about an inch from the top.

Mark the level with a marker.

Mark the pool level too.

Leave alone for 24 hours.

Check the two levels, if the pool has gone down more than the bucket, you have a leak.

[fdimike]

Gary

I really don't want to get in the middle of this but it would seem to me that if the pool is above ground and you can see all your plumbing then it should be easy to determine if the leak is at the point where the pipe passes through the pool wall. I assume you have a floor drain in the pool which you will have to check as well. You are going to have to dig underneath the pool to see if there is a leak there. I would not attempt to dig under the pool if it's filled unless the pool is supported on pilings. Water is heavy and you can easily damage the pool by undermining the soil underneath.

Are you getting air in your pump? Air in the pump could indicate a leak in the line coming from the pump to the filter.

Check your plumbing lines for leaks at all the connections back to your pump/filter and the returns to the pool.

Doing an evaporation test in the rainy season with high humidity will be difficult but can be done as the evaporation rate will be very small. In any event it's worth a try.

I would steer clear of trying to use epoxy grout unless you are an experienced tile setter. If you plan to regrout I would strongly recommend you use Super Champ Extra 3 Plus Tile Grout for Pools. It's waterproof after it cures and will stop water from passing through the tile joints. I've used this grout myself (3 friends and myself) when we regrouted my 17m x 7m concrete pool. I've also used it very successfully to seal the joints around both skimmer boxes and all pipes passing through the pool wall & floor. It's very obvious once you mix this grout that it's not the standard run of the mill grout. It's very sticky and will adhere to just about anything in the pool. It's important to make sure all the joints are completly filled with the grout. Working time is the same as any other grout unlike epoxy grout which is much faster setting and has a shorter working time.

Concrete itself is not waterproof and will allow water to pass through unless a waterproofing compound is added to the mix during construction. That being said since this is an above ground pool then I would check the pool walls to see if they're wet on the outside. If you cannot detect any moisture on the outside walls then I would say you should look for the leak elswhere.

I hope this helps.

[Valentine]

This is the procedure to test for a leak:

1. Determine the amount of evaporation by doing a bucket test. If its not evaporation then continue

2. Turn off all pool equipment and wait for water level to go down. This will work if the level is dropping fast. It will stop dropping level when it hits the point its leaking from. Ususally a pipe in the wall. The level th water stops at will identify which pipe is leaking.

3. If it doesnt lose water when the equipment is off, then its probably a leak in the pipework leading from the pool to the equipment. If you are getting air in the pump, then its a suction leak between skimmer and pump. If there is no air in the pump, then its a leak in the return piping.

To test for a pipe leak, either do a pressure test on the individual line concerned, or do a sonar test to 'hear' the leak.

If you still have problems post a question on domainpools dot com dot au in their forum page

Hi,

We have a problem with our pool, and would like to know how you do compare the loss of water from a small bucket to loss of water from a 8 x 4 pool.

Obviously i'm wrong, but i would have thought the bucket would have lost a lot more than the pool over the same period.

For your info, we are losing about 5mm /day, obviously the measurements were done on a dry day, broken cloud and sun.

Any help or info would be appreciated.

Cheers....

I would consider this normal evaporation.

[Naam]

double posting

Edited September 9, 2011 by Naam

[Naam]

i hate to burst the "bucket" bubble but i can't help it. water in a bucket under equal conditions such as sun radiation and ambient temperatur will always evaporate faster than water in an inground pool provided that the poolpump is not working and therefore the surface not moving.

reason:

the bucket water will heat up to a higher temperature than the water in an inground pool with the walls not exposed to higher air temperature than the soil. higher temperature = higher differential water temp / air temp causes higher evaporation. even the above ground pool the OP described will not heat up as fast as the water in a bucket.

by the way, the "PoolDoctor" was right with his claim "considerable loss of water because of defective seal 5-way valve". it happened to me in my former home years ago.

[farang000999]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

[skippie999]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

i had the same problem. here comes the answer:

1.

do the water test first

try to place the bucket inside the pool water on a step or something so that the bucket water keeps the same conditions as the pool water! try to make both the same level to start. use at least 3 days. Make sure you close the water in and outlets in the pool to make sure that definitely it is not the piping or the filters. you can do this by blocking the holes inside the pool. also make calculation of the percentage loss. (how many liters of water in the pool and how many liters loss....

2.

if you have made sure the pool is leaking prepare for a dive! go in the pool with a diving mask or even better diving equipment and go and search for the leak. you use a colored type of fluid: preferably red and use that in a little nose spray bottle. go to the surface and spray only very little bits to see if the water sucks in the surface. if you have established a spot where the colored fluid is sucking in you found the spot where it leaks.

3.

repair the leak with a 3 compound epoxy or not as good but effective a waterproof putty. if you have tiles remove 4 tiles in that area and put them in new with 3 compound expoxy or temporary put in the putty.

4.

start with option 1 again to make sure there is only one leak.

5.

enjoy the pool again.

[farang000999]

so how do i get the eyeball diverters on the return lines off to plug them? it looks like they are glued on they dont appear to twist off. thx

[Naam]

my inground pool is leaking. my plan is to just wait and see where the water stops at. however, if the leak is at the bottom (a crack i have not found) is there a risk of the pool popping out of the ground? would i have to drill relief holes? how low can the pool drain before it could pop out of the ground?

until the water level in the ground pops it up. if the water drains = no pop-up.

[fdimike]

Farang

I couldn't remove my returns as well because they were glued on. I solved the problem with a Dremel Rotary Tool and a small carbide bit. I used the carbide bit to cut a 1/8" groove the tile/old grout around the "eyeball" and regrouted with swimming pool grout. It solved the problem and looks neatly finished as well.

[skippie999]

so how do i get the eyeball diverters on the return lines off to plug them? it looks like they are glued on they dont appear to twist off. thx

mate never ever start doing anything before you find the leak! re-grouting is only cosmetic. when you finished the job it might still leak. make sure you go and find the leak wherever it is in your pool. if you cannot block your piping inside the pool you go with the same colored fluid to those pipe areas and see if fluid is going inside the pipe while the pumps and filters are blocked! it is not that difficult. alsways when there is water flow there is suction and yopur fluid will disappear. 100% guarantee for that. it is an easy job and make your finding a leak so simple. when in the bottom of the pool you might need to put a few bottles of beer in your swimming pants and when you cannot hold your breath long enough you buy a few meter hose (big size) and connect that on the one end to a soccer ball to hold it up and the other end in your mouth to breath. when you find the leak you can comfortable open one of the bottles of beer on the bottom of the pool and drink that to celebrate........