Time For Thailand To Join The International Criminal Court

[webfact]

Time for Thailand to join the international criminal court

By Dr. Hans-Peter Kaul

Madrid

On behalf of the presidency and all 18 judges of the International Criminal Court (ICC), I would like to convey good wishes to the people of Thailand. This week I have the pleasure of visiting this beautiful country as a participant in an international conference about the ICC. The ICC is an independent, permanent court that was set up to end impunity for the most serious crimes of international concern, such as genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression.

The ICC is the result of long-lasting efforts by the international community to put an end to the kind of unimaginable atrocities that have plagued humankind for far too long. The ICC is based on a treaty, the Rome Statute, which was adopted in 1998 and is now joined by the majority of the independent states of the world.

The ICC is not a substitute for national justice systems. Under the Rome Statute, even when a state joins the ICC, it remains the primary responsibility of that country's own justice system to exercise criminal jurisdiction over international crimes.

The ICC is a court of last resort, which can try individuals suspected of being responsible for genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes only when a country's national justice system is unable or unwilling to do so.

Therefore the ICC is a kind of safety net that provides additional assurances of accountability for the gravest crimes of concern to humanity, thereby also contributing to the prevention of future atrocities.

The ICC is a neutral, judicial and non-political body that observes the highest standards of fairness and due process in all of its activities. It is not part of the United Nations system but the two organisations cooperate on many issues.

The ICC is based on the principle of full respect for the sovereignty of states and it is solely the decision of each nation whether to join the ICC or not. The court's membership is constantly growing and currently numbers 114 states parties from the five regions of the world.

The states parties represent diverse legal and religious traditions as well as many different constitutional systems such as republics, federations and monarchies. This geographic, cultural and political diversity demonstrates the truly international nature of the ICC.

Thailand has a progressive record of joining international legal treaties, including 9 out of the 11 core international human rights treaties. Thailand is also a strong supporter of the UN by contributing to UN peacekeeping operations and hosting the offices of over 25 UN agencies in Bangkok. Thailand's commitment to human rights and peaceful relations with other countries would no doubt be bolstered by joining the ICC.

Thailand has a long history of participation in the ICC process. A senior government delegation from Thailand participated in the Rome Conference in 1998 where the ICC Statute was adopted. On October 2, 2000, Thailand took a very important first step toward the ICC by signing the Rome Statute. Last month I was delighted to notice that a high-level delegation represented Thailand at the 9th session of the Assembly of States Parties to the Rome Statute held at the UN headquarters in New York.

By taking the next step of ratifying the Statute, Thailand would send out a clear signal of commitment to the rule of law, peace and the struggle against impunity, not only at home, but around the world. Ratification also gives a state the equal right to nominate candidates and to vote in the election of the highest officials to the ICC.

The next elections for the prosecutor and six posts of judges will take place in 2012, so now would be an excellent time to join the ICC to shape its future development and make it even more global than it is now.

In the meantime, the time is ripe for the Rome Statute to be translated into the Thai language. Following the good example of many Asian nations where the Rome Statute has been translated into a country's official language, including Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, an accurate Thai translation would bring about an improved understanding of the ICC and its mandate. This would be an important measure for Thailand in support of assessing the historic treaty, and deciding whether to ratify or not.

Several Asian countries, including Japan and South Korea, have already ratified the Rome Statute and many more are considering joining the ICC family. Cambodia and Timor-Leste joined in 2002 as the only two Southeast Asian states parties so far.

I am certain that not only the 114 states parties, but also the court itself, would be delighted to welcome Thailand as a new state party.

Dr Jur. H. C. Hans-Peter Kaul is vice-president of the International Court of Justice. He is in Bangkok to speak at a seminar co-organised by Thammasat University and the German Embassy on "Human Rights and the ICC", and on Monday 24 will meet Ambassador of the EU, Mr David Lipman, and actual representative of the EU presidency, Hungarian Ambassador, Mr Tomjai Denes, to discuss the present state of affairs of the ratification process of the ICC Statute in Thailand.

-- The Nation 2011-01-22

[timekeeper]

anyone know how much these boys get paid for sitting in their high tower?

looks like a good little earner to me.....

[reason1]

anyone know how much these boys get paid for sitting in their high tower?

looks like a good little earner to me.....

I am sure it is too much money for too little work. However, perhaps in this crazy world they are needed

[taff33]

But who will be left to govern the country

[geriatrickid]

The former Prime Minister that was deposed by an illegal military coup is named Thaksin Shinawatra. The use of childish derogatory names is best left at the children's playground. The alleged crimes associated with the attempt to prevent a narco terrorist usurption of the judiciary and a legitimate government would not neccessarily come under the mandate of the ICC as the alleged crimes do not meet the criteria required. People may not agree with the actions of the police and judiciary at the time, but there is a means of seeking redress under the current Thai legal system. The fact that nothing has happened in respect to holding a public inquiry or otherwise since Mr. Thaksin was deposed speaks volumes. The current government under PM, Mr. Abhisit is free to pursue charges against the former PM should it so wish.

On the other hand, if Thailand was a member of the ICC, then the border dispute violence with Cambodia, the treatment of southerners in the disputed Malaysian border zones, Last April's violence and the treatment of Burmese refugees might be pursued with the ICC. Be careful what one wishes for.

[rixalex]

The former Prime Minister that was deposed by an illegal military coup is named Thaksin Shinawatra.

Is there a type of coup that is not illegal?

[OzMick]

The former Prime Minister that was deposed by an illegal military coup is named Thaksin Shinawatra. The use of childish derogatory names is best left at the children's playground. The alleged crimes associated with the attempt to prevent a narco terrorist usurption of the judiciary and a legitimate government would not neccessarily come under the mandate of the ICC as the alleged crimes do not meet the criteria required. People may not agree with the actions of the police and judiciary at the time, but there is a means of seeking redress under the current Thai legal system. The fact that nothing has happened in respect to holding a public inquiry or otherwise since Mr. Thaksin was deposed speaks volumes. The current government under PM, Mr. Abhisit is free to pursue charges against the former PM should it so wish.

On the other hand, if Thailand was a member of the ICC, then the border dispute violence with Cambodia, the treatment of southerners in the disputed Malaysian border zones, Last April's violence and the treatment of Burmese refugees might be pursued with the ICC. Be careful what one wishes for.

By all means let us be duly deferential to bail-jumping convicted criminals, hell bent on stealing every baht possible from the people of Thailand, and setting himself up s a dictator, before he was "illegally' deposed, if you can depose a resigned care-taker PM. But who was usurping the judiciary, police and military? Not the druggies, and certainly not the innocent victims of government authorized extra-judicial murder; they come under the heading of collateral damage I suppose. Might just squeeze in as a "crime against humanity" though.

AFAIK, Malaysia has no dispute about the border. Muslim expansionists, who's stated aim is to turn Thailand, PI and Australia into muslim states, are funding, arming and supplying fighters to a pseudo-separatist movement used to hide a low-level slow-motion invasion. What should the current administration have to worry about as far as that region is concerned? Certainly not Tak Bai. IMHO they are being far too soft on the local population, at the very least they should force closure of all religious schools.

Do you really think the ICC would lay charges over last April's violence? As stated in the article, the ICC has no interest where the country's own legal system is doing the job. The perpetrators of an armed attempt to overthrow a legitimate government are facing appropriate charges (except for Mr Thaksin of course), and members of the police and military will face court if they are shown to have caused a death, and will then be exonerated as carrying out their legitimate duties. How many signatories to the ICC have accused the Thailand government of NOT acting with due restraint?

Timekeeper, my very first thought on this subject was the same as yours. Express it in terms of multiples of the average wage in Spain(?) - 10 won't even come close.

[OzMick]

The former Prime Minister that was deposed by an illegal military coup is named Thaksin Shinawatra.

Is there a type of coup that is not illegal?

by definition, no. But they may well be justified.

[housepainter]

QUOTE: The ICC is a court of last resort, which can try individuals suspected of being responsible for genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes only when a country's national justice system is unable or unwilling to do so. END OF QUOTE

Thailand is unable to prosecute speeding motorists, street prostitutes or illegal traders. I honestly can't think of any examples where it does apply the law other than when someone cheats the tollway booth. Then they get 70 years. Oh, I forgot the poor. Lots of them in prison as they haven't the money to pay to stay out. Petty criminals mostly caught up in a judicial system that transfers them to prison to keep the staion cells free. Remanded and unable to pay bail they await sentence. Unable to engage lawyers they gather no evidence by way of defence. The Police case, fact or fiction, can not be rebutted and therefore a custodial sentence is imposed.

That self same system is circumvented initially by posting bail, granted due to the 50/50 share out with the local Police station, and then with defence evidence amounting to little other than mitigation, the fine is levied and paid [that's the important bit - paid] and the accused is released.

The there's the ones who bite off more than they can chew. It's OK to go on a 15 year killing spree, nobody minds. Not even the victims families as they never speak out, get angry, make a fuss. It's as if they were glad that Dad was gunned down after being being tortured for several days. The newspapers ahve you believe that, whereas we see when it's done Moo Ham style, the father visits the witnesses and the problem like a turd in a toilet is flushed away.

Sure the judicial-police investigative process gets derailed some time when some one will want their pound of flesh. Like when the human rights lawyer was snatched off the streets by uniformed Police and never seen again. Yes his widow banged on and on about it and phone records were checked and witness statements taken. They even got so far as sticking one of the policemen involved with a parking ticket as they vehicle used waitied at the kerb side. But all the weight of Amnesty International, International human rights watch, the worlds media didn't add a gnat's nadgers worth of difference to the outcome.

But so far, and just how many years has it been now? Justice has managed to avoid detaining, arresting, placing in custody let alone prosecuting any of the named policemen involved. No Saudi Gems involved in this one just more Thai policemen. The weight of Saudi Arabia, the with holding of trade, the cost in billions of baht, hasn't made a difference to the immunity, the lack of progress in that case. The Police are still free doing their murderous worth. And where do you think the gems sit in a place no one can touch. Now where would that possibly be in Thailand? Oh, and it isn't a bank.

Interesting just what it does take to put a uniform behind bars. Even the killing of Canadian citizens and the shooting and runnning over of bodies in the road seems to merit nothing more than a Police interview; this is an official caution. Do not do it again. Things, you may not believe it, have actually deteriorated with the killing of tourists at sky train stations during the paceful red shirt protests, along with Journalists. Again, no explanations or prosecutions. It seems it just happens in Thailand and no one is responsible at any time for anything.

Even murderous members of the army are free to run amok for decades until they kill the Yosothorn Governor, dragging his batered and bleeeding body from hotel room to hotel room as they bludgeon him to death. Up an ddown the corridors. The Army Sergeant's pick up is awash with blood but still no arrest.

When they do finally arrest him the man responds by not attepting to shoot his way out; grab a 9mm in one hand and a grenade in the other. No. He reaches for his uniform, his shirt, in order to wear that cloak of immunity. They had to rip it from him. Justice? It took the clout of the Yosothorn clan to force the arrest of an otherwise protected and untouchable uniform. And it's only that the indivdual murderous bastard was out of control that the Army let it go, then unwillingly.

Then there's the current hoo-har over a few aged ex-pats murdered by their wives, helped by Thai lover and brother. Three are listed on here and while two were simply despatched one at least had a good send off by way of being cut into several large and meaty chunks to be 'fed to the wild life.' I presume that meant they ate him.

Any how, once again Thai justice swiftly bogged down in the mud as lots of sterling was converted in Thai baht and every local police station was given something larger than a free gift of a water heater. In reponse to the latest Hua Hin slaying his mates are having a whip round to finance the pursuit of justice.

Funny me but I thought that was what the government had budgets for: one for the Polcie and another for the judiciary. Must be wrong on that one.

Edited January 22, 2011 by housepainter

[LaoPo]

On the other hand, if Thailand was a member of the ICC, then the border dispute violence with Cambodia, the treatment of southerners in the disputed Malaysian border zones, Last April's violence and the treatment of Burmese refugees might be pursued with the ICC. Be careful what one wishes for.

That's not correct.

The ICC doesn't handle such cases. The ICC handles very serious (war) crime cases against individuals, lately most of them from Africa.

You're probably confused with the ICJ, the International Court of Justice which handle cases like you described; legal disputes between states.

Both Courts are in The Hague/The Netherlands.

LaoPo

[BigC]

anyone know how much these boys get paid for sitting in their high tower?

looks like a good little earner to me.....

I am sure it is too much money for too little work. However, perhaps in this crazy world they are needed

is china part of the world criminal court seeing as though they are the next super power ? So who is the world. America ??? Europe ???

Thailand has staid popular because of it unqueness. have to take the rough with the smooth. It ain't perfect but it is thailand.

Allot has changed here over the last few years. not sure if i like it. this country which i felt more free in ( i am not an criminal).

Anyway how do u expect this govement to fight antie corruption unless u have the will of the people.

unfortuatly everone likes money so. what is the govs. future plans. Arrest everyone who has taken a white envalope. they might have to open some more prisons. maybe a great wall of thailand lol

[whybother]

is china part of the world criminal court seeing as though they are the next super power ? So who is the world. America ??? Europe ???

<snip>

Here is a start for some information on who accepts and who doesn't accept the ICC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

[rubl]

Both ICJ and ICC have been named in this thread. Just to be sure, check the difference from their home pages

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Home

http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/index.php?p1=0〈=en

[geriatrickid]

OzMick in your attempt to rebut my view you actually supported it.

On one hand you express a view about Mr. Thaksin but then you state the ICC has no interest where the country's own legal system is doing the job. Exactly. I agree. The current government has the ability to hold an inquiry, or a judicial investigation and to lay charges against Mr. Thaksin in respect to the drug control campaign allegations. PM Abhisit has not done that. Therefore, you have answered the positions expressed by others that the ICC could take on the allegations against the deposed government of former PM Thaksin. You have explained why it is not a likely outcome. Thank you.

You then ask the question; Do you really think the ICC would lay charges over last April's violence? The perpetrators of an armed attempt to overthrow a legitimate government are facing appropriate charges (except for Mr Thaksin of course), and members of the police and military will face court if they are shown to have caused a death, and will then be exonerated as carrying out their legitimate duties.

I refer you to the recent decision to investigate Kenya. Note the ICC emphasis upon the need to investigate on behalf of the victims of the violence. There has been no action on the part of the Thai governemt to address the issue of the targeting of non implicated parties such as the jornalists that were shot. This doesn't mean that the ICC would authorize an investigation, but if Thailand was a signatory of the treaty it is possible interested parties could petition the court for an investigation. This would not be a particuarly welcome event for the Thai government.

On the other hand, if Thailand was a member of the ICC, then the border dispute violence with Cambodia, the treatment of southerners in the disputed Malaysian border zones, Last April's violence and the treatment of Burmese refugees might be pursued with the ICC. Be careful what one wishes for.

That's not correct.

The ICC doesn't handle such cases. The ICC handles very serious (war) crime cases against individuals, lately most of them from Africa.

You're probably confused with the ICJ, the International Court of Justice which handle cases like you described; legal disputes between states.

Both Courts are in The Hague/The Netherlands.

LaoPo

I understand your point, but there are previous cases that support a petition being presented. In respect to the Canbodian dispute, if the subject was the treatment of the Cambodian civilians, then yes it is possible

Please refer to the Rwanda case, particularly that which involved the Tutsis of the RPF launching clashes from Uganda against the Hutus of Rwanda. Appreciably the attempts by PAD to launch incursions to provoke ethnic violence in the border regions is not on the same scale, but it is similar in its M.O. I doubt that any petition would be successful, but the petition could still be brought using that argument. At the very least it would cause embarrassment.

In respect to the treatment of the Burmese refugees, I refer you to the Darfur file. In the decision to open an investigation the court stated; The ICC has jurisdiction over grave crimes under international law committed on the territory of States Parties or by nationals of States Parties. For years, there have been allegations of human trafficing, drug dealing, murders and extortion committed by senior Thai government officials. Obviously, the extent of the allegations are not comparable to the horrors of Darfur and the mistreatment of the refugees. However, it can be argued that the alleged involvement in the mistreatment of Burmese refugees including the refusal at times to allow international inspections is grounds to bring a petition for investigation. I doubt such a petition would be successful, but the petition could still be brought and result in hearings to determine validity. Again, more potentially embarrassing activity.

In respect to the treatment of civilians in the deep south, this most certainly would allow for a petition for investigation to be brought. I refer you to the activities in respect to Indonesia in East Timor. A more relevant example is the El Salvador investigation(s) in the early 1990's.

I appreciate that there are specific mandates for each of the courts, but within those mandates there are areas where overlap can occur because of the nature of the alleged crimes. I'm sure Thailand could wiggle out of such investigations and charges. Unfortunately, the public image and the Thailand brand would take a hit.

[Misterwhisper]

The ICC took up its work, I believe, in 2001. Thailand did not ratified its charter, presumably because in 2001 somebody was in power in this country who perhaps thought it might clash with his activities as a "beacon of true democracy".

[asiawatcher]

The former Prime Minister that was deposed by an illegal military coup is named Thaksin Shinawatra. The use of childish derogatory names is best left at the children's playground. The alleged crimes associated with the attempt to prevent a narco terrorist usurption of the judiciary and a legitimate government would not neccessarily come under the mandate of the ICC as the alleged crimes do not meet the criteria required. People may not agree with the actions of the police and judiciary at the time, but there is a means of seeking redress under the current Thai legal system. The fact that nothing has happened in respect to holding a public inquiry or otherwise since Mr. Thaksin was deposed speaks volumes. The current government under PM, Mr. Abhisit is free to pursue charges against the former PM should it so wish.

On the other hand, if Thailand was a member of the ICC, then the border dispute violence with Cambodia, the treatment of southerners in the disputed Malaysian border zones, Last April's violence and the treatment of Burmese refugees might be pursued with the ICC. Be careful what one wishes for.

By all means let us be duly deferential to bail-jumping convicted criminals, hell bent on stealing every baht possible from the people of Thailand, and setting himself up s a dictator, before he was "illegally' deposed, if you can depose a resigned care-taker PM. But who was usurping the judiciary, police and military? Not the druggies, and certainly not the innocent victims of government authorized extra-judicial murder; they come under the heading of collateral damage I suppose. Might just squeeze in as a "crime against humanity" though.

AFAIK, Malaysia has no dispute about the border. Muslim expansionists, who's stated aim is to turn Thailand, PI and Australia into muslim states, are funding, arming and supplying fighters to a pseudo-separatist movement used to hide a low-level slow-motion invasion. What should the current administration have to worry about as far as that region is concerned? Certainly not Tak Bai. IMHO they are being far too soft on the local population, at the very least they should force closure of all religious schools.

Do you really think the ICC would lay charges over last April's violence? As stated in the article, the ICC has no interest where the country's own legal system is doing the job. The perpetrators of an armed attempt to overthrow a legitimate government are facing appropriate charges (except for Mr Thaksin of course), and members of the police and military will face court if they are shown to have caused a death, and will then be exonerated as carrying out their legitimate duties. How many signatories to the ICC have accused the Thailand government of NOT acting with due restraint?

Timekeeper, my very first thought on this subject was the same as yours. Express it in terms of multiples of the average wage in Spain(?) - 10 won't even come close.

Well said.