Infringements And Exceptions (Beginners)

[BringMeSunshine]

Hi all

I'm a beginner learning Thai from books (at this point in time, mainly how to read it).

I have got the alphabet and (I think) the pronunciation down. I'm currently trying to hammer into my head where to put the spaces in unfamilar sentences and how to pick-up speed assigning tones to words.

To do this, I am using text from the conversation sections of 'Learn Thai' type books and from Thai phrasebooks - transliterating it into English and then checking that (spaces and tones, mainly) against the 'answers' in the book.

So far, so good. But occasionally I come up against a tone or a word that just don't make sense (according to the 'rules' I have read in my book(s)).

I was wondering whether some kind soul here would mind taking a look at some of these unexplained exceptions I come across and letting me know whether each one is (for example) (a) explained by some accepted rule that I haven't come across yet; ( really is just a one-off exception that you have to learn for each errant word; © me being stupid and missing the point; (d) there’s a typo in my book (e) or what.

Here's a few to illustrate what I'm on about. I’m sure I will have many more as I continue my journey.

Tones:

1) according to Paiboon’s Thai for Beginners, in สมุด (notebook) both syllables are low tone. Surely, mut, the second syllable should be high tone (low class initial consonant, dead syllable, short vowel) ?

2) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in ศนามบิน (airport) the ‘naam’ has a rising tone. Surely as a low class initial consonant-live syllable, it should be mid-tone.

3) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in ขออภัย (excuse me [to get past]) the final syllable ‘pay’ has a rising tone. As for (2), surely this should be mid-tone.

4) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in คุณ นับ ถือ ศาสนา อะ ไร (kun nap-teu saht-sa-nah a-rai What’s your religion ?) the นา has a rising tone (as opposed to my expected mid-tone (low class, live). While I’m here – what’s that อ doing on the end of the ถื ? Also, after I’ve seen the answer, I can understand how it is that ศาสนา is said sat sa naa, but left to my own devices, I would be just as likely to read it as, ‘saa sa naa’ or ‘sat naa’. Any way around this ?

5) Thoughout Paiboon Thai for Beginners, they assign a high tone to เขา (he). Surely, as high class – live, this would be rising tone. As-is, isn’t it an animal horn?

6) according to Paiboon’s Thai for Beginners, in fa rang ฝรัง (?=ฝะ รัง) , the รัง rang is low tone. Surely as low class, live, it should be mid tone.

7) according to several texts, อร่อย (a-roy, tasty) is low-tone on the second syllable. Shouldn’t a low class consonant with a mair ayk be falling tone ?

-------

Tone rules apart, where does the w sound come from in ช้า (chow) ?

-------

And, I can see it after the event, but how will I ever predict that เพลง spells playng, not pay-long; or that the 'vowel' in พวก is long, and not short….

----

Sorry to go on, but any help (and/or general pointers), much appreciated. Is anyone prepared to answer more questions like these, as I find them ?

TIA

[farangnahrak]

1) according to Paiboon's Thai for Beginners, in สมุด (notebook) both syllables are low tone. Surely, mut, the second syllable should be high tone (low class initial consonant, dead syllable, short vowel) ?

A short vowel ending in a dead consonant ด forces it as a low tone.

2) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in ศนามบิน (airport) the 'naam' has a rising tone. Surely as a low class initial consonant-live syllable, it should be mid-tone.

It's spelled สนาม =P

If you ever see a ส, and the next syllable doesn't end with a dead consonant, that syllable is a rising tone. For example, สมัย and สมอง.

3) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in ขออภัย (excuse me [to get past]) the final syllable 'pay' has a rising tone. As for (2), surely this should be mid-tone.

ขอ rising อ low ภัย mid

If lonely planet says rising, it's wrong. You'll find tons of 'learn thai' books that simply are wrong when it comes to tones, so always double check from other sources.

[farangnahrak]

4) according to the Lonely Planet phrasebook, in คุณ นับ ถือ ศาสนา อะ ไร (kun nap-teu saht-sa-nah a-rai What's your religion ?) the นา has a rising tone (as opposed to my expected mid-tone (low class, live).

see comment to #2

While I'm here – what's that อ doing on the end of the ถื ?

The same reason the word 'why' has an h in the middle. =P

5) Thoughout Paiboon Thai for Beginners, they assign a high tone to เขา (he). Surely, as high class – live, this would be rising tone.

The formal correct way is เขา, which has a rising tone. However, in spoken Thai, it's pronounced as เค้า, which has a high tone. The writer probably just got confused between the two.

6) according to Paiboon's Thai for Beginners, in fa rang ฝรัง (?=ฝะ รัง) , the รัง rang is low tone. Surely as low class, live, it should be mid tone.

It's spelled ฝรั่ง, where the mai eak tone mark forces it to be a low tone.

[farangnahrak]

Tone rules apart, where does the w sound come from in ช้า (chow) ?

There is no w, its pronounced 'chaa'.

And, I can see it after the event, but how will I ever predict that เพลง spells playng, not pay-long; or that the 'vowel' in พวก is long, and not short….

Memorization . . . you'll find many other words like this in the future =P

ps - sorry for the multiple replies, but TV bans any posts with more than ~4 quotes in the reply . . .

[eric67]

Most of your questions have to do with consonant clusters.

There are real consonant clusters, as in your example เพลง , where the cluster พล is always pronounced together.

This happens when the first consonant is either a ก ค ข ป พ or ต , and the 2nd consonant either a ร ล or ว

Then there are 'fake' consonant clusters in multi-syllable words, where they sneak in an invisible -ะ- between the 2 consonants.

Now if the 1st consonant of this type of cluster is mid- or high-class, and the 2nd one is low class, then the 2nd syllable also gets the tone from the 1st consonant.

This happens in your other examples:

สมุด ส is high-class, so มุด follows the high-class tone rules = low

สนาม ส is high-class, so นาม follows the high-class tone rules = rising

ศาสนา ส is high-class, so นา follows the high-class tone rules = rising

ฝรั่ง ฝ is high-class, so รั่ง follows the high-class tone rules = low

อร่อย อ is mid-class, so ร่อย follows the mid-class tone rules = low

Not really beginner stuff, so don't worry if you get it wrong

Most of your other questions have already been answered, maybe just this one:

- ถือ , this vowel is always written with a อ when it's in a final position.

When it's in medial position it loses the อ , as in คืน for instance.

[BringMeSunshine]

thanks folks - that's really helpful.

[mike_l]

]If you ever see a ส, and the next syllable doesn't end with a dead consonant, that syllable is a rising tone. For example, สมัย and สมอง.

Not necessarily, as the next syllable has to start with a low class consonant too. สบาย has no rising tone, for instance.

[farangnahrak]

]If you ever see a ส, and the next syllable doesn't end with a dead consonant, that syllable is a rising tone. For example, สมัย and สมอง.

Not necessarily, as the next syllable has to start with a low class consonant too. สบาย has no rising tone, for instance.

oops . . . good point!

[BringMeSunshine]

...the next syllable has to start with a low class consonant too. สบาย has no rising tone, for instance.

I have since seen a book that says that the second letter has to be one of ง น ม ย ว ร ล

Looking the point up, the same thing is also stated here (in point IIId)

http://www.thai-language.com/id/830222

HTH