Saddam Hussein Captured

[kwiz117]

THIS IS FROM BBC...

A trial of Saddam Hussein would primarily bring forth evidence of his crimes, but he might also use the forum to remind the world that he once had his supporters outside Iraq - in the former Soviet Union, in the Gulf States and in the West.

The trial might turn into more than an account of genocide, invasion, murder and massacre, dominant though that would be.

It could become a political event tinged with some embarrassment for countries and individuals who were once close to him.

Saddam Hussein's egocentric sense of history, largely centred around a vision of himself leading the Arab world as Saladin led it against the Crusaders, would surely tempt him to play to the gallery of Arab opinion.

In the process, he might raise the question as to why those who later opposed him once supplied him with technical, military and diplomatic muscle.

Two current Western leaders in particular might find their names in the frame - the French President Jacques Chirac and the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

But before considering their role, it is important to remember that Saddam Hussein's main supplier was the Soviet Union. He was sent its best equipment - Mig 29s, T 72 tanks, artillery, gunboats and Scud missiles.

And he did not pay for it all. Russia, the Soviet Union's successor state, is still owed billions of dollars.

French role

France, however, was also a major supplier. When he was prime minister in 1974, Jacques Chirac went to Baghdad to see Saddam Hussein, then the power in Iraq, though not yet the president.

The following year, Saddam Hussein went to France and Prime Minister Chirac showed him round a nuclear plant.

They negotiated the sale to Iraq of two French nuclear reactors. One of them was destroyed in an air raid by the Israelis in 1981 amid fears that Iraq was developing a nuclear weapon.

France also agreed to provide Iraq with 133 Mirage F1 jet fighters over a 10-year period. It is reckoned that during the 1980s, 40% of France's arms exports went to Iraq.

'My dear friend'

In 1987, a French paper published a letter written to Saddam Hussein by Jacques Chirac a few months previously. It began: " My dear friend."

It refers obliquely to "the negotiation which you know about" and to the "co-operation launched more than 12 years ago under our personal joint initiative, in this capital district for the sovereignty, independence and security of your country."

Mr Chirac denied that the "negotiation" meant a discussion about repairing Iraq's nuclear reactors.

The French president has since said that, at the time, many governments supported Iraq in its war against Iran and that Iraq was seen as "progressive".

Indeed many other Western countries - including the United States, Britain, West Germany and Italy - also helped Iraq with equipment and expertise, both civilian and military, and with finance.

Iraq's Arab neighbours in the Gulf, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia among them saw revolutionary Iran as a threat and poured money into Baghdad.

US diplomacy

The role played by the United States turned out to be important diplomatically. And this is where Mr Rumsfeld came in.

In the early 1980s, the bogeyman for the Americans was Ayatollah Khomeini. He had come to power in Iran during the 1979 Islamic revolution.

The United States had been humiliated by the seizure of its embassy and the holding of its staff as hostages for more than a year. This helped Jimmy Carter lose the presidency to Ronald Reagan in 1980.

With Iran seen as the danger, Washington turned to Iraq as the bulwark.

Iraq had invaded Iran in 1980 but the Iranians had held the advance and were striking back with human wave attacks. Iraq was known, by 1983, to have used chemical weapons to stop these.

A US State Department memorandum in 1983 stated: "We have recently received additional information confirming Iraqi use of chemical weapons."

President Reagan determined nevertheless that Iraq should be supported and he sent Mr Rumsfeld to Baghdad with a personal letter from himself to Saddam Hussein.

Mr Rumsfeld had been defence secretary under President Ford and was then head of a private pharmaceutical company.

Minutes of their meeting in December 1983 were taken by an American diplomat and later released in edited form under the Freedom of Information Act. They were published by the National Security Archive, a private research group.

Iran the motive

It is clear from the account that Mr Rumsfeld was concerned about Iran and that this was the motive for the American approach.

The minutes state: "Rumsfeld told Saddam that the US and Iraq shared interests in preventing Iranian and Syrian expansion."

There is a lot of talk about stopping Iranian oil exports.

The report also sums up Saddam Hussein's reaction: "Saddam Hussein showed obvious pleasure with the President's letter and Rumsfeld's visit."

There is no mention of Mr Rumsfeld having raised the issue of chemical weapons with Saddam Hussein, though he said he did in an interview with CNN in 2002.

A report on another meeting, recorded that he did raise it with the Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, saying that "our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that make it difficult for us, citing the use of chemical weapons".

Diplomatic relations between the US and Iraq were restored in 1984.

Past alliances often embarrass governments.

If Saddam Hussein chooses to do so, he could use them to embarrass some of his current enemies.

Real point of trial

Not that it would diminish his own responsibilities. The London based organisation Indict, which has gathered evidence against Saddam Hussein and his associates, has published one eyewitness account of the dictator's personal behaviour.

It is a reminder of what the trial will really be about:

"One of the president's bodyguards brought 30 prisoners out. They were Kurds. The president himself shot them one after another with a Browning pistol.

"Another 30 prisoners were brought and the process was repeated. Saddam Hussein was laughing and obviously enjoying himself. There was blood everywhere - it was like an abattoir...

"Those who were still alive were eventually finished off by the security officers."

[Khun ?]

How is Germany France and Russia owed all this money (debt). For sure they was not doing anything in Iraq. Do you see one mention of money about The U.S.

Because the U.S. supported Iraq against Iran and at these times the U.S. was getting less than 5% of their oil from Iraq and today is getting less than 15% ( I will need to look this up again). While Europe does how much Oil for Weapons deals. Europeans sure do have a right to point fingers, I did not notice a lack of

oil using products in 70's, 80's and 90's of course we know you will do your part and get on your bicycle and ride off in your sugar coated past.

[kwiz117]

How is Germany France and Russia owed all this money (debt). For sure they was not doing anything in Iraq. Do you see one mention of money about The U.S.

Because the U.S. supported Iraq against Iran and at these times the U.S. was getting less than 5% of their oil from Iraq and today is getting less than 15% ( I will need to look this up again). While Europe does how much Oil for Weapons deals. Europeans sure do have a right to point fingers, I did not notice a lack of

oil using products in 70's, 80's and 90's of course we know you will do your part and get on your bicycle and ride off in your sugar coated past.

Agreed..but you missed out the Donald Duck..

In my opinion, Sadam became a victim of the West. They used it to gain the benefits they want and then they isolated him when the things went wrong. He went insane with the power.

Even US had done deals with Iraq. No one can wash the hands. I saw a photo that Donald Duck, holding hands of Sadam.

The same thing US is doing right now with Israel and Pakistan. In my books, both are Terrorist Countries and Pakistan even have a military ruler.

So, what is this Democracy in Iraq we all are talking about? It's a joke..isn't it?

That is why we say that US went to Iraq for Financial gains and not to help Iraqi people. Your president is lying to the world...

[Khun ?]

Kwiz

The middle east under a combined world planning of military action NATO and

asian free world countries more or less has by assets and ability have more or

less co-operation with the U.S. who provides the funding and cost and assets (personnel who are in harms way) at the U.S. tax

payers expense has been the providers of security in this region for free trade and worldwide resorces. Let us not forget the threat from Iran to disrupt shipping of

vital resourses that would effect the U.S. trading partners. It is Global interest and U.S. as being the biggest user of the resorces must pay the biggest price even if they do not get it from this area for free trade the world over. It is a big picture not to be made simple like some are trying to do. No way will global economies and soceities be able to continue to advance without resorces from this region

until other renewable power sorces are developed. One problem being is this area does not seperate Religon and government. The poor use religon as power the rich use government as power there is more poor than government hence the

the terror infiltrated religons and waring factions. Idle hands and minds always cause such problems.

The problem we have here is at what right does the couch potato tv watching

no risk taking loud mouths think they have all the solutions. This name calling

trash talking is easy from comfortable chairs or stools at the bar. Be thankful you have the priviledge to do just that in comfort. Hitler invented the easy chair and gas chamber. Maybe he was stopped a bit to soon from an americans view. If we knew then what we know now. Anyways happy holidays and peace to all.

[Butterfly]

A nice link for a quick reminder why "officially" Bush and his friends went to war: very informative

http://www.kaicurry.com/gwbush/remindus.swf

I am sure the Pro-Bush and Pro-Americans have some kind of explanation if they dare to click on that link.

[Georgie-Porgie]

I "dared" to click on that link and it was empty, like the mindless rheteric on this empty-headed thread. Keep on braying brainless ones!

[Axel]

I was out of country for the last couple of days and read this threat now, all in once.

Actually, no real contributions. There are the guys, who don't like Bush. Generally called 'Amercia-haters', and there are the guys who defend the great actions of the US of A and its heroic President, usually called 'un-informed'.

I think, it is next to impossible to get the pros and cons on this subject without vicious fightings.

[Koh_Falang]

I "dared" to click on that link and it was empty, like the mindless rheteric on this empty-headed thread. Keep on braying brainless ones!

Try the link again..... dont be too quick to judge us empty-headed

[Butterfly]

I "dared" to click on that link and it was empty, like the mindless rheteric on this empty-headed thread. Keep on braying brainless ones!

that would explain why you can't read the paper or understand anything outside "Faux News"

Go buy a brain then maybe you will know how to click on a link

Like I said, too pussy to face the evidence

[Butterfly]

I was out of country for the last couple of days and read this threat now, all in once. 

Actually, no real contributions. There are the guys, who don't like Bush. Generally called 'Amercia-haters', and there are the guys who defend the great actions of the US of A and its heroic President, usually called 'un-informed'.

I think, it is next to impossible to get the pros and cons on this subject without vicious fightings.

Unfortunately you are correct and this is why:

1. The "smart" conservatives who voted for Bush and who have realized since what a mistake and a fraud he has been, will not come to his defense and instead not comment on the whole thing because of their partial responsability for putting him in power (if we even consider that the election was not a total fraud in the first place)

2. The "light headed" redneck who are uninformed and too stupid to understand any of this will cowardly "hide" behind Bush "tough" policies as a refuge for their once great way of life now destroyed by Corporate America and the same people they have voted for. Too stupid to realize this, they stick to what they know best: the American Dream

3. The "Liberals" and "anti-Americans" just see this as a confirmation of what they have been saying for years, and now this has become so obvious with Bush & Co that they find it hard to believe that "people" could be so "stupid" to support and defend Bush and his friends. The problem is that the "liberals" fail to understand that there is in this world people far more "stupid" than anything they could ever imagine and whose only interests is NASCAR and Oprah rather than caring about innocent children being killed in some third world country rat hole.

Vive the American Dream

God Bless AmeriKa and GW Bushit

[Georgie-Porgie]

I am not a conservative, and not a George Bush supporter. It just rubs me wrong to see an entire thread devoted to the ramblings of a bunch of dimwits who can't string a correct sentence together, can't spell -in fact, who can't even use spell-check, who don't have an original thought in their heads and who, apparently, couldn't make it through grade school, but somehow, have come to think, that they have deep insights into international politics. The world according to Dumb (the gentleman), Dumber (quiz117) and Dumbest (Butterfly)!

[Guest IT Manager]

The man who said "a blair in the Hand was worth 2 dead bush" got it right.

[francois]

Actually, no real contributions. There are the guys, who don't like Bush. Generally called 'Amercia-haters', and there are the guys who defend the great actions of the US of A and its heroic President, usually called 'un-informed'.

I agree,

for so many countries with a communist regime, where nobody dare to believe whatever they say show or write as they are aware that this is propaganda,

it's amazing to see the so-called democratic countries where almost everyone believe that what they have read seen or heard is true ...

francois

[Butterfly]

I am not a conservative, and not a George Bush supporter. It just rubs me wrong to see an entire thread devoted to the ramblings of a bunch of dimwits who can't string a correct sentence together, can't spell -in fact, who can't even use spell-check, who don't have an original thought in their heads and who, apparently, couldn't make it through grade school, but somehow, have come to think, that they have deep insights into international politics. The world according to Dumb (the gentleman), Dumber (quiz117) and Dumbest (Butterfly)!

What a nice dodge !!! You are not fooling anyone you know.

Coming from a retard such as yourself, I will take all this as a compliment

[Khun ?]

I wish I wouldn't of wasted my time working and would of completed my Rhodes scholarship with a side trip to the ole Ivy. I guess for now I could concentrate on typing and thinking on the same sentence at the same time. Until then I will have to use my degree from Bombay university in pigeon english so please bare with us.

Sorry for taking the piss out of the subject..

New book out *** America the most hated still a nice place to export to or to fight your battles.

[Butterfly]

For our NeoNazi friends, heu, I mean NeoCons friends, that little piece is nice if they dare to read it (if they know how to read)

We Caught the Wrong Guy

By William Rivers Pitt, TruthOut.com

December 15, 2003

Saddam Hussein, former employee of the American federal government, was captured near a farmhouse in Tikrit in a raid performed by other employees of the American federal government. That sounds pretty deranged, right? Perhaps, but it is also accurate. The unifying thread binding together everyone assembled at that Tikrit farmhouse is the simple fact that all of them – the soldiers as well as Hussein – have received pay from the United States for services rendered.

It is no small irony that Hussein, the Butcher of Baghdad, the monster under your bed lo these last twelve years, was paid probably ten thousand times more during his time as an American employee than the soldiers who caught him on Saturday night. The boys in the Reagan White House were generous with your tax dollars, and Hussein was a recipient of their largesse for the better part of a decade.

If this were a Tom Clancy movie, we would be watching the dramatic capture of Hussein somewhere in the last ten minutes of the tale. The bedraggled dictator would be put on public trial for his crimes, sentenced to several thousand concurrent life sentences, and dragged off to prison in chains. The anti-American insurgents in Iraq, seeing the sudden futility of their fight to place Hussein back into power, would lay down their arms and melt back into the countryside. For dramatic effect, more than a few would be cornered by SEAL teams in black face paint and discreetly shot in the back of the head. The President would speak with eloquence as the martial score swelled around him. Fade to black, roll credits, get off my plane.

The real-world version is certainly not lacking in drama. The streets of Baghdad were thronged on Sunday with mobs of Iraqi people celebrating the final removal of a despot who had haunted their lives since 1979. Their joy was utterly unfettered. Images on CNN of Hussein, looking for all the world like a Muslim version of Charles Manson while getting checked for head lice by an American medic, were as surreal as anything one might ever see on a television.

Unfortunately, the real-world script has a lot of pages left to be turned. Former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, reached at his home on Sunday, said, "It's great that they caught him. The man was a brutal dictator who committed terrible crimes against his people. But now we come to rest of story. We didn't go to war to capture Saddam Hussein. We went to war to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. Those weapons have not been found." Ray McGovern, senior analyst and 27-year veteran of the CIA, echoed Ritter's perspective on Sunday. "It's wonderful that he was captured, because now we'll find out where the weapons of mass destruction are," said McGovern with tongue firmly planted in cheek. "We killed his sons before they could tell us."

Indeed, reality intrudes. The push for war before March was based upon Hussein's possession of 26,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin, 1,000,000 pounds of sarin gas, mustard gas, and VX nerve gas, along with 30,000 munitions to deliver these agents, uranium from Niger to be used in nuclear bombs, and let us not forget the al Qaeda terrorists closely associated with Hussein who would take this stuff and use it against us on the main streets and back roads of the United States.

When they found Hussein hiding in that dirt hole in the ground, none of this stuff was down there with him. The full force of the American military has been likewise unable to locate it anywhere else. There is no evidence of al Qaeda agents working with Hussein, and Bush was forced some weeks ago to publicly acknowledge that Hussein had nothing to do with September 11. The Niger uranium story was debunked last summer.

Conventional wisdom now holds that none of this stuff was there to begin with, and all the clear statements from virtually everyone in the Bush administration squatting on the public record describing the existence of this stuff looks now like what it was then: A lot of overblown rhetoric and outright lies, designed to terrify the American people into supporting an unnecessary go-it-alone war. Said war made a few Bush cronies rich beyond the dreams of avarice while allowing some hawks in the Defense Department to play at empire building, something they have been craving for more than ten years.

Of course, the rhetoric mutated as the weapons stubbornly refused to be found. By the time Bush did his little 'Mission Accomplished' strut across the aircraft carrier, the occupation was about the removal of Saddam Hussein and the liberation of the Iraqi people. No longer were we informed on a daily basis of the "sinister nexus between Hussein and al Qaeda," as described by Colin Powell before the United Nations in February. No longer were we fed the insinuations that Hussein was involved in the attacks of September 11. Certainly, any and all mention of weapons of mass destruction ceased completely. We were, instead, embarking on some noble democratic experiment.

The capture of Saddam Hussein, and the Iraqis dancing in the streets of Baghdad, feeds nicely into these newly minted explanations. Mr. Bush and his people will use this as the propaganda coup it is, and to great effect. But a poet once said something about tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow.

"We are not fighting for Saddam," said an Iraqi named Kashid Ahmad Saleh in a New York Times report from a week ago. "We are fighting for freedom and because the Americans are Jews. The Governing Council is a bunch of looters and criminals and mercenaries. We cannot expect that stability in this country will ever come from them. The principle is based on religion and tribal loyalties," continued Saleh. "The religious principle is that we cannot accept to live with infidels. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him, said, `Hit the infidels wherever you find them.' We are also a tribal people. We cannot allow strangers to rule over us."

Welcome to the new Iraq. The theme that the 455 Americans killed there, and the thousands of others who have been wounded, fell at the hands of pro-Hussein loyalists is now gone. The Bush administration celebrations over this capture will appear quite silly and premature when the dying continues. Whatever Hussein bitter-enders there are will be joined by Iraqi nationalists who will now see no good reason for American forces to remain. After all, the new rhetoric highlighted the removal of Hussein as the reason for this invasion, and that task has been completed. Yet American forces are not leaving, and will not leave. The killing of our troops will continue because of people like Kashid Ahmad Saleh. All Hussein's capture did for Saleh was remove from the table the idea that he was fighting for the dictator. He is free now, and the war will begin in earnest.

The dying will continue because America's presence in Iraq is a wonderful opportunity for a man named Osama bin Laden, who was not captured on Saturday. Bin Laden, it has been reported, is thrilled by what is happening in Iraq, and plans to throw as much violence as he can muster at American forces there. The Bush administration spent hundreds of billions of dollars on this Iraq invasion, not one dime of which went towards the capture or death of the fellow who brought down the Towers a couple of years ago. For bin Laden and his devotees, Iraq is better than Disneyland.

For all the pomp and circumstance that has surrounded the extraction of the former Iraqi dictator from a hole in the ground, the reality is that the United States is not one bit safer now that the man is in chains.

There will be no trial for Hussein, at least nothing in public, because he might start shouting about the back pay he is owed from his days as an employee of the American government. Because another former employee of the American government named Osama is still alive and free, our troops are still in mortal danger in Iraq.

Hussein was never a threat to the United States. His capture means nothing to the safety and security of the American people. The money we spent to put the bag on him might have gone towards capturing bin Laden, who is a threat, but that did not happen. We can be happy for the people of Iraq, because their Hussein problem is over. Here in America, our Hussein problem is just beginning. The other problem – that Osama fellow we should have been trying to capture this whole time – remains perched over our door like the raven.

William Rivers Pitt is the managing editor of truthout.org.

[Khun ?]

Jews, Infidels, tribal convictions. Does anyone have an animal these people can

use for their next reason to be blind followers. To bad Jim Jones left the area

a bit soon he could of had millions follow him to where ever their dreams and a bucket of poison leaves them. May they continue to arrange marriages to 12 year olds and their tribual duties keep them busy. Bhuda may be a bleesing to them some day.

William Rivers Pitt is the managing editor of truthout.org

May ( Bill ) continue to be gainfully employed and move up in a future job at the tribal post someday.

[Butterfly]

Looks like 911 is Bush fault after all. Osama was just doing his job, but Bush wasn't as usual. Playing with the PlayStation is more important and so much easier than catching real terrorists or threats

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/17/...ain589137.shtml

9/11 Chair: Attack Was Preventable

NEW YORK, Dec. 17, 2003

For the first time, the chairman of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks is saying publicly that 9/11 could have and should have been prevented, reports CBS News Correspondent Randall Pinkston.

"This is a very, very important part of history and we've got to tell it right," said Thomas Kean.

"As you read the report, you're going to have a pretty clear idea what wasn't done and what should have been done," he said. "This was not something that had to happen."

Appointed by the Bush administration, Kean, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, is now pointing fingers inside the administration and laying blame.

"There are people that, if I was doing the job, would certainly not be in the position they were in at that time because they failed. They simply failed," Kean said.

To find out who failed and why, the commission has navigated a political landmine, threatening a subpoena to gain access to the president's top-secret daily briefs. Those documents may shed light on one of the most controversial assertions of the Bush administration – that there was never any thought given to the idea that terrorists might fly an airplane into a building.

"I don't think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile," said national security adviser Condoleeza Rice on May 16, 2002.

"How is it possible we have a national security advisor coming out and saying we had no idea they could use planes as weapons when we had FBI records from 1991 stating that this is a possibility," said Kristen Breitweiser, one of four New Jersey widows who lobbied Congress and the president to appoint the commission.

The widows want to know why various government agencies didn't connect the dots before Sept. 11, such as warnings from FBI offices in Minnesota and Arizona about suspicious student pilots.

"If you were to tell me that two years after the murder of my husband that we wouldn't have one question answered, I wouldn't believe it," Breitweiser said.

Kean admits the commission also has more questions than answers.

Asked whether we should at least know if people sitting in the decision-making spots on that critical day are still in those positions, Kean said, "Yes, the answer is yes. And we will."

Kean promises major revelations in public testimony beginning next month from top officials in the FBI, CIA, Defense Department, National Security Agency and, maybe, President Bush and former President Clinton.

[Khun ?]

Butterfly

You are proving yourself an american hater. Thats fine, we agree Bush should of been at the airport check in looking for an unnormal amount of box cutters on flights that day. If cars could be used for bombs why not planes for missles. It was done in the war with Japan so it is not a new use for planes.

Face it bigots are on both left and right sides of politics. Is there anyway we can go back and adjust the out come of world war II to adjust for attitudes of today.

Sprechens sie duetch Herr Butterfly.

[Butterfly]

Butterfly

You are proving yourself an american hater. Thats fine, we agree Bush should of been at the airport check in looking for an unnormal amount of box cutters on flights that day. If cars could be used for bombs why not planes for missles. It was done in the war with Japan so it is not a new use for planes.

Face it bigots are on both left and right sides of politics. Is there anyway we can go back and adjust the out come of world war II to adjust for attitudes of today.

Sprechens sie duetch Herr Butterfly.

I am just a Bush basher. Get your facts straight.

Did I mention I have double citizenship and one of them is USA ? I have also a US Passport

Yeah, I am anti-American

Gotta love those weak arguments

[Khun ?]

Well use half of yourself and get over here and help out so we can get the job done and get home. There is already 30 countries here providing assistance.

If Bill would of taken USSAMA when he was on offer we would still have 8

aircraft on the taxable income status. Earn your half of citizenship. It is not what

your country can do for you it is what you can do for your country. Peace Love Dope

[Kan Win]

Bush is in Nana Plaza

sure is!!

Welcome home Bush

[the gentleman]

written by an American, long but worth it!

By Leon Fisher

12-17-3

Having gotten out of bed early Sunday morning but not having turned on the TV or radio till mid-morning, I was completely unaware of the capture of Saddam Hussein.

As I finally got around to it, the first thing to greet my eyes and ears was one of the mainstream media's fops, standing in front of the White House in Washington with this very serious demeanor, talking about the capture of Saddam, and what all this was going to mean to G.W. Bush and the coming election, the people of Iraq, the American people, world opinion, and so on and so forth.

As I listened to this interminable flow of rubbish gushing forth from this man's lips I knew then and there that the corporate-controlled news media was going to play this for all it was worth, even more then the killing of Saddam's sons, and more so then the President's risky "surprise" Thanksgiving Day visit to the troops in Baghdad ... if that is possible.

As I left the TV in total disgust and switched on the radio, it was no better. All the major stations, except one independently owned radio station (WBAI), were exulting in the "joyous" news. It was not long till the news station began to ask the people on the street what they thought about it, and naturally all I heard were the voices of the usual mindless idiots praising the President and calling for the execution of this evil madman Saddam who not only suppressed and murdered his own people, but threatened the entire world with weapons of mass destruction. Which some morons still believe exist.

Bush and the efficacious oligarchy which he represents must truly be thanking their lucky stars for these "useful idiots", as V.I. Lenin called those fools who helped win the revolution for the reds in Russia. If these "idiots" - among them our friends, neighbors, and fellow citizens - would take a little time off from the usual distractions of our society, they would begin to realize that our own government has been both past and present engaged in and guilty of the suppression and murder of its own citizens (Waco, Ruby Ridge, MOVE in Philadelphia), engaged in the mass genocide of its indigenous peoples, the American Indian, and had two hundred years of slavery and almost another hundred years of disenfranchisement for its African-American population.

The premeditated deception by press and President to dupe its citizenry to support "police actions", "peace keeping", and unjustifiable wars is a long tradition:

* The alleged blowing up of the cruiser Maine in Havana harbor actually resulted from a coal fire spreading to the ammunition magazine, resulting in a massive explosion, but it was blamed on the Spanish, initiating the Spanish American War.

* President Wilson's pro-British, Anti-German press propaganda deceived Americans into sending their sons into the trenches of World War I.

* Franklin Roosevelt's "Day of Infamy" at Pearl Harbor got the U.S. into World War II, but details now emerging show that Roosevelt was well-aware of when and where the Japanese attack would take place. He purposely failed to warn the fleet, shamelessly sacrificing American servicemen to sway public opinion in favor of yet another foreign war.

* The Gulf of Tonkin attack on US Navy destroyers, which never even happened, plunged America into a futile un-winnable conflict, killing fifty thousand plus Americans, and an estimated million and a half Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians - but it made billions for the powerful military-industrial complex.

* George Bush senior's first Gulf War loudly called for the liberation of Kuwait, but failed to tell the American people that the U.S. State Department had given Saddam the green light to occupy Kuwait, through the American ambassador to Iraq months before.

* And this was not the first time a "friendly" leader was "set up" when no longer useful to a U.S. administration - remember Manuel Noriega of Panama?

* Then there was the media barrage about the starving people of Somalia, so only the most heartless of human beings could oppose military intervention. It was quite a cover for "nation-building", or what used to be known as colonialism, at the point of a gun. Another miserable failure, killing the people we were sent to save, while those we were saving were killing our young men, all at the expense of we taxpayers, more useful idiots. At least the fool in the White House at the time knew when it was time to leave.

* Kosovo, another local European argument giving our political elite another opportunity to justify their existence and honor themselves as great "peace makers", guaranteed yet another payday for the military-industrial complex.

* And this brings us to the present administration, looked upon by hundreds of millions both at home and abroad as the most detested and despised government that America has had in its entire history. Shamelessly exploiting 9/11 to implement a policy which had been in existence years before the first jetliner impacted the World Trade Center, the Bush administration is now well on its way to take control of the world's known energy resources. Having stolen the 2000 election before the eyes of America and the world, and in the opinion of a great many people, thought to have engineered or been a party to 9/11, the Bush administration is now stonewalling the independent 9/11 investigation, citing reasons of national security. How convenient!

After almost a year of lies and deception about "weapons of mass destruction" from not only the President himself, but every high-ranking member of his cabinet including Colin Powell (whom the corporate press has for years touted as beyond reproach), Bush ordered our military to violently attack Iraq. Months later, despite special units deployed to search out the weapons of mass destruction, nothing has been found. No doubt embarrassed by this development, after assuring both the American people and the world that thousands of tons of chemical and biological weapons were definitely there, all this talk about liberation and democracy was substituted, trying to save Presidential face.

The Iraqis, it seems, were telling the truth in the first place. No weapons of mass destruction after all. Yet the corporate-controlled press, true to form, gave these liars in Washington a free pass, where a truly free press would be calling for their resignations and even a criminal investigation.

This war on Iraq, just like those wars before, killed thousands of innocent people, and provided yet another big payday for the Bush/Cheney corporate pals. Saddam, like Osama, is being used as just another distraction, a smokescreen to keep the useful idiots useful, helping to maintain a government whose duty is not to the people who elected them (or didn't, in the case of G.W. Bush), but to the small percent of very rich and influential men who wish to control everything on earth.

By allowing this un-elected fraud and his willing accomplices in the press corps try to convince us who our enemies are and who we should hate, they will ultimately win, trashing the Constitution and the Bill of Rights along the way. So let that arrogant, strutting peacock have his triumph. But as the days pass, as things worsen for the American people, even the most distracted among us will eventually come to their senses and start the process of returning America to the road to freedom, liberty, and sanity.

[Butterfly]

Well use half of yourself and get over here and help out so we can get the job done and get home. There is already 30 countries here providing assistance.

If Bill would of taken USSAMA when he was on offer we would still have 8

aircraft on the taxable income status. Earn your half of citizenship. It is not what

your country can do for you it is what you can do for your country.  Peace Love Dope

What a bunch of crap ? now it's Clinton fault !!!! pllleeeaaazzzzeee

I know it's always the fault of the Clinton penis

Even though he tried to take Osama out, he was accused of using this as an excuse to "wag the dog" by the same Republicans who are praying Bush now for his tough terrorist policies.

Also, bear in mind that Clinton "Anti-Terrorist" unit in the WH was shutdown as soon as King George took power.

Try your weak arguments on someone with a shorter attention span.

[Khun ?]

Leon and his one liners. One incident each time was the whole cause.

Well here is one for ya. There is a hole somewhere in Iraq

that is presently not being used, How many Dem's and leon's with one liners could

use it, when in 04 Big George is back for another term. Kuwait is not and was not

Saddams 19th province, let Leon know this but most of what he said is twisted interpetations and speculation of others trying to make a buck sensationalizing a story. I am sorry poor leon is so unhappy where he is I am sure nothing is stopping him from leaving but then again you cannot say what you want in most

place so he better stay put and continue his writings for the enquire. If Leon

( Spinks of writing) Fisher would take the Nastrodamus movie off the Tube he may just find a life of his liking somewhere beyond his miserable settings.

[Sing_Sling]

Khun - <deleted> does "Sprechens sie duetch Herr Butterfly" mean?

Let's see - the word Herr is the only one spelled correctly, the 'sie' in a letter or address should be capitalised. Do you mean Dutch?

Just what are you insinuating khun khun?

[the gentleman]

I am not a conservative, and not a George Bush supporter. It just rubs me wrong to see an entire thread devoted to the ramblings of a bunch of dimwits who can't string a correct sentence together, can't spell -in fact, who can't even use spell-check, who don't have an original thought in their heads and who, apparently, couldn't make it through grade school, but somehow, have come to think, that they have deep insights into international politics. The world according to Dumb (the gentleman), Dumber (quiz117) and Dumbest (Butterfly)!

go and kiss the girls and make em cry!

[the gentleman]

I "dared" to click on that link and it was empty, like the mindless rheteric on this empty-headed thread. Keep on braying brainless ones! It just rubs me wrong to see an entire thread devoted to the ramblings of a bunch of dimwits who can't string a correct sentence together, can't spell -in fact, who can't even use spell-check,

rhetoric and praying - just helping you out!

[the gentleman]

Just made my first posting on the visa section and have now got the information I wanted. But why are people on this site so weird?

Before I go, let me do an impersonation.

Bush just caught Saddam BTW, do you read the Washington Post? Do you think Saddam is really good or bad?

Is there any truth in the rumour that gratuitous clicking on smilies is an indication of an advanced or retarded intelligence?

Goodbye, god bless.

5 smilies!

[the gentleman]

I wish I wouldn't of wasted my time working and would of completed my Rhodes scholarship with a side trip to the ole Ivy. I guess for now I could concentrate on typing and thinking on the same sentence at the same time. Until then I will have to use my degree from Bombay university in pigeon english so please bare with us.

Sorry for taking the piss out of the subject..

New book out *** America the most hated still a nice place to export to or to fight your battles.

Khun thats the same thing you keep saying mate - "New book out *** America the most hated still a nice place to export to or to fight your battles."

No one asked for your help in this occasion -NO ONE!

At the end of the day we are allies, but I dont beleive Bush is good for your country and he has proved that - there is not many people on your side. I aplaud patriotism, but this guy is the worst marketing tool the USA has ever had - since day 1 he started picking fights with who ever opposed "freedom" - his freedom, his morals and his thoughts on how the world should be - ITS NOT WHAT THE MAJORITY THINK MATE, the world marches on without the Bush's of this world - his is doing what he says he is at war over - dictators.

P.S. The majority of the Yanks I know are great people, but this one is far from it!