Self Sufficiency With Less Than 1 Rai

[grimleybob]

I've seen many poster's on here asking what to do with a small amount of land.

This is what you do.

You set up a small aquaponics system. See Pic

This allows you to grow 500+ tilapia and grow enough veggies for the family 365 days a year.

The fish provide the nutrients to supercharge the growth of the veg and the veg filter the water to allow the fish to grow at an enhanced rate.Perfection.

The whole setup should be 15-20,000bht

What are you waiting for . Give it a go and keep us posted

Google backyard aquaponics

Edited January 29, 2011 by grimleybob

[steve187]

are all the materials required available here, this subject has been on my mind for a while. do you have any links for any thai sites?

[grimleybob]

are all the materials required available here, this subject has been on my mind for a while. do you have any links for any thai sites?

3m tanks, I believe, are available for 3800 bht. You'll also need a small sump tank, pipework, 2 small pumps. grow-beds and clayball growing medium.

A back-up generater would be adviseable. It's all DIY with a bit of trial & error.Once you have it flowing, adjust the flow (in/out) to balance the system.

The only water that you should need to add is to replace evapouration.

Sorry I have no links but you should find stuff on google & youtube

[mkawish]

are all the materials required available here, this subject has been on my mind for a while. do you have any links for any thai sites?

3m tanks, I believe, are available for 3800 bht. You'll also need a small sump tank, pipework, 2 small pumps. grow-beds and clayball growing medium.

A back-up generater would be adviseable. It's all DIY with a bit of trial & error.Once you have it flowing, adjust the flow (in/out) to balance the system.

The only water that you should need to add is to replace evapouration.

Sorry I have no links but you should find stuff on google & youtube

Wow

Looking at the drawing referenced above....

It appears after having downed a six pack that....

this is the only place on planet earth that....

water could defile gravity.... naturally.... in good humor....

[grimleybob]

are all the materials required available here, this subject has been on my mind for a while. do you have any links for any thai sites?

3m tanks, I believe, are available for 3800 bht. You'll also need a small sump tank, pipework, 2 small pumps. grow-beds and clayball growing medium.

A back-up generater would be adviseable. It's all DIY with a bit of trial & error.Once you have it flowing, adjust the flow (in/out) to balance the system.

The only water that you should need to add is to replace evapouration.

Sorry I have no links but you should find stuff on google & youtube

Wow

Looking at the drawing referenced above....

It appears after having downed a six pack that....

this is the only place on planet earth that....

water could defile gravity.... naturally.... in good humor....

I Built an MFI kitchen with instructions worse than that.

By the way the fish are swimming backwards

[ozzydom]

500 eating size Pla Nin in a 3meter diameter concrete pond, who said super optimism was dead

[grimleybob]

500 eating size Pla Nin in a 3meter diameter concrete pond, who said super optimism was dead

When youv'e done your resesrch on Auaponics you can make a valued comment.

Because the water is filtered, circulated and airiated the stocking density is much greater than is possible in a stagnent pond

There is also much less wastage of food in this system. Food take-up is much greater.

All comparisons to normal pondlife are irrelevent

I suggest that unless you can add something of real value to the post, you keep the sarcasm to yourself.

Have a nice day Bob

[ozzydom]

500 eating size Pla Nin in a 3meter diameter concrete pond, who said super optimism was dead

When youv'e done your resesrch on Auaponics you can make a valued comment.

Because the water is filtered, circulated and airiated the stocking density is much greater than is possible in a stagnent pond

There is also much less wastage of food in this system. Food take-up is much greater.

All comparisons to normal pondlife are irrelevent

I suggest that unless you can add something of real value to the post, you keep the sarcasm to yourself.

Have a nice day Bob

You are the one who stated "500 Tilapia" in your OP,and this I can assure you is erronious .

If you had quoted catfish for example ,it may make a little more sense.

To filter the water from Tilapias habitat is to deprive them of the greater part of their diet meaning you have to feed them their total intake of food which would make your idea financially unviable.

As for my bona fides, I practised aquaponics 50 years ago and continue today in one form or another, so I speak from practice and not googled research.

Even today ,our veggie garden is solely watered from our No.4 pond which holds 4000 Tilapia and the water is regularly charged with Nitrogen and Phosphate but fertilizer is still required to obtain good production of veggies.

Finally ,your "idea" fails to take into account the added costs such as ,electricity for running even small pumps and/or aerators 24/7,fish food R&M etc which added together make the idea chancey at best.

"Sarcastic Dom"

[grimleybob]

Auquaponics 50 years ago, interesting you should have told someone about it you'd have made a fortune.

Aquaponics is the marriage of Auatic culture and Hydroponic Horticulture.

It's not about spraying you veg plot with fish water.

take a look on youtube

what you are practicing is aquaculture not aquaponics big difference

500 eating size Pla Nin in a 3meter diameter concrete pond, who said super optimism was dead

When youv'e done your resesrch on Auaponics you can make a valued comment.

Because the water is filtered, circulated and airiated the stocking density is much greater than is possible in a stagnent pond

There is also much less wastage of food in this system. Food take-up is much greater.

All comparisons to normal pondlife are irrelevent

I suggest that unless you can add something of real value to the post, you keep the sarcasm to yourself.

Have a nice day Bob

You are the one who stated "500 Tilapia" in your OP,and this I can assure you is erronious .

If you had quoted catfish for example ,it may make a little more sense.

To filter the water from Tilapias habitat is to deprive them of the greater part of their diet meaning you have to feed them their total intake of food which would make your idea financially unviable.

As for my bona fides, I practised aquaponics 50 years ago and continue today in one form or another, so I speak from practice and not googled research.

Even today ,our veggie garden is solely watered from our No.4 pond which holds 4000 Tilapia and the water is regularly charged with Nitrogen and Phosphate but fertilizer is still required to obtain good production of veggies.

Finally ,your "idea" fails to take into account the added costs such as ,electricity for running even small pumps and/or aerators 24/7,fish food R&M etc which added together make the idea chancey at best.

"Sarcastic Dom"

[ozzydom]

Aquaponics has previously been discussed on this forum over the years,as has the building and use of bio-filters (which you neglected to mention but is a crucial part of an aquaponics system).

In the late 50,s I was involved in a large trout hatchery,My boss , a very knowledgeable marine biologist devised a system utilising the pond water through plants suspended in crushed bluestone on zinc sheeting trays.(Modern planting medium and plastics were not readily available)

We grew water cress and iceberg lettuce.

However the main object of the project was to clean the pond water of ammonia prior to release back into the brook which runs through a world heritage area and is the source of drinking water further downstream.

By the way electricity was not available so water lift and transfer was carried out via a waterwheel powered by the brooks flow.

There is an old saying " there is little new under the sun"

[grimleybob]

Aquaponics has previously been discussed on this forum over the years,as has the building and use of bio-filters (which you neglected to mention but is a crucial part of an aquaponics system).

In the late 50,s I was involved in a large trout hatchery,My boss , a very knowledgeable marine biologist devised a system utilising the pond water through plants suspended in crushed bluestone on zinc sheeting trays.(Modern planting medium and plastics were not readily available)

We grew water cress and iceberg lettuce.

However the main object of the project was to clean the pond water of ammonia prior to release back into the brook which runs through a world heritage area and is the source of drinking water further downstream.

By the way electricity was not available so water lift and transfer was carried out via a waterwheel powered by the brooks flow.

There is an old saying " there is little new under the sun"

Then you already know that the system works and could be used by people with a small plot of land.

You must also know that there are many places in the US growing Tilapia under these very coditions. (see Youtube)

So why the negativety?

Why not use you undoubted knowledge to encourage others to have a go.

I was'nt expecting any one to start without a bit of research. They can learn about Bio-filters there

Whats hard about creating a bio-filter

Bob

[ozzydom]

Bob, I try not to encourage nor discourage people when it comes to ventures involving their hard earned cash.

I try to assist with their problems based on my experiences.

In this case I really do not feel the system is cost effective ,at least in Thailand where fresh veggies are normally so cheap and easily had.

As a commercial fish farmer here I am acutely aware of the problems associated with growing Tilapia,and it must be pointed out that the whole system is dependant on having X amount of fish in the system to provide the required effluent, any problem with the fish and the system turns into a hydroponics system.

The system may be ok in western countries where veggies are expensive or for a person who does it for a hobby, and we all know hobbies are for pleasure and not usually cost effective.

The main problem I see is the frequent power outages here in LOS , A tank of Tilapia would not last 30 minutes once water exchange and/or aeration ceases and to provide an emergency generator puts the capitol outlay to high for any benefits to be attained.

[Livinginexile]

Bob, I try not to encourage nor discourage people when it comes to ventures involving their hard earned cash.

I try to assist with their problems based on my experiences.

In this case I really do not feel the system is cost effective ,at least in Thailand where fresh veggies are normally so cheap and easily had.

As a commercial fish farmer here I am acutely aware of the problems associated with growing Tilapia,and it must be pointed out that the whole system is dependant on having X amount of fish in the system to provide the required effluent, any problem with the fish and the system turns into a hydroponics system.

The system may be ok in western countries where veggies are expensive or for a person who does it for a hobby, and we all know hobbies are for pleasure and not usually cost effective.

The main problem I see is the frequent power outages here in LOS , A tank of Tilapia would not last 30 minutes once water exchange and/or aeration ceases and to provide an emergency generator puts the capitol outlay to high for any benefits to be attained.

I have been looking into hydroponic/aquaponics lately.

We have just bought 15 rai on the River Kwai (Sugar Cane) but I'd like to try something a little different.

Thanks very much for sharing some of your practical experience Dom, much appreciated.

[grimleybob]

Bob, I try not to encourage nor discourage people when it comes to ventures involving their hard earned cash.

I try to assist with their problems based on my experiences.

In this case I really do not feel the system is cost effective ,at least in Thailand where fresh veggies are normally so cheap and easily had.

As a commercial fish farmer here I am acutely aware of the problems associated with growing Tilapia,and it must be pointed out that the whole system is dependant on having X amount of fish in the system to provide the required effluent, any problem with the fish and the system turns into a hydroponics system.

The system may be ok in western countries where veggies are expensive or for a person who does it for a hobby, and we all know hobbies are for pleasure and not usually cost effective.

The main problem I see is the frequent power outages here in LOS , A tank of Tilapia would not last 30 minutes once water exchange and/or aeration ceases and to provide an emergency generator puts the capitol outlay to high for any benefits to be attained.

You make some valid points that I will try to address.

This system is used commercially in Malaysia.(Round 3m plastic tanks etc)

There are some floating bed systems growing commercialy in Thailand.

You definitely need a backup power system.

You challenged my figure of 500 tilapia in a 3mx1.2m circular tank in fact according to a research paper I have,read carried out in China, they stocked three tanks at 400 tilapia per cu meter @50Gr and grew them to 5/600Gr in 150 days at an FCR of 1.34.

As for the veg you choose to grow the veg that brings the best return. With this system ,you never have a dry season

Another advantage is that you can have several tanks with different species giving you a better chance of retailing more of your stock. You can also stagger your harvesting.

Later in the year I should have my system up and running and you will be welcome to come see

bob

[ozzydom]

Bob, I try not to encourage nor discourage people when it comes to ventures involving their hard earned cash.

I try to assist with their problems based on my experiences.

In this case I really do not feel the system is cost effective ,at least in Thailand where fresh veggies are normally so cheap and easily had.

As a commercial fish farmer here I am acutely aware of the problems associated with growing Tilapia,and it must be pointed out that the whole system is dependant on having X amount of fish in the system to provide the required effluent, any problem with the fish and the system turns into a hydroponics system.

The system may be ok in western countries where veggies are expensive or for a person who does it for a hobby, and we all know hobbies are for pleasure and not usually cost effective.

The main problem I see is the frequent power outages here in LOS , A tank of Tilapia would not last 30 minutes once water exchange and/or aeration ceases and to provide an emergency generator puts the capitol outlay to high for any benefits to be attained.

You make some valid points that I will try to address.

This system is used commercially in Malaysia.(Round 3m plastic tanks etc)

There are some floating bed systems growing commercialy in Thailand.

You definitely need a backup power system.

You challenged my figure of 500 tilapia in a 3mx1.2m circular tank in fact according to a research paper I have,read carried out in China, they stocked three tanks at 400 tilapia per cu meter @50Gr and grew them to 5/600Gr in 150 days at an FCR of 1.34.

As for the veg you choose to grow the veg that brings the best return. With this system ,you never have a dry season

Another advantage is that you can have several tanks with different species giving you a better chance of retailing more of your stock. You can also stagger your harvesting.

Later in the year I should have my system up and running and you will be welcome to come see

bob

Bob,As an experiment I do not doubt the figures you quote,but the practicalities are a different matter.

For instance ,the pump required for pumping /aeration would need to be about 2 hp running 24/7. Two units per hour useage at 3.2 baht per hour (Thai price) =about 153 baht per day or23,000 baht for the 150 day growing period.

The selling price of the 240kg of fish @70bt per kg is 16,800 Baht leaving the experiment 6,200 baht in the red without adding feed costs.

Floating bed (raft growing is carried out all over the world)and usually done where a grower is water rich and land poor.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against alternative methods ,It is the cost effectiveness I am pointing out.

[billd766]

I am looking at doing something like this and I am researching and pricing before I start.

Instead of using a big pump is it not possible to use a submersible pump in lieu pumping around 100 litres or less per hour?

Also a standby generator costs around 5,000 baht and can also be used to power some of the house as well, lights, fridges and fans though not a/c.

Certainly in the beginning I would not be interested so much in the commercial end of things but as a hobby and if it works well there is always expansion and see what happens along those lines.

Roughly whereabouts are you in Thailand Bob as I may try to visit when your system is up and running?

Edited February 5, 2011 by billd766

[grimleybob]

http://www.herbsfromwales.co.uk/joomla/index.php?Itemid=39&id=10&option=com_content&task=view

In reply to dom & billd

Look at the set up above.They use one small submersible for each tank. The growbeds are built at a higher level than the water level in the tank thus using gravity to return the filtered water back to the fish.

This is used to grow rainbows which a notorious for needing plenty of oxygen.

They also have a system where the water filters into a sump tank with a second small submersible to carry the water back to the fish. I havn't yet seen this in operation so I cannot comment.

Our land is about is about 15mins off the 24 and 15-20 min PhuSing crossing.

bob

[Lickey]

Hi Dom, you old tasmanian devil!, good to see you posting again on your favorite subject,, I dunno mate, perhaps we gotta stand back and let new tecnologies take over??I think us old buggers will gradually accept new stuff, unlike a thai farmer who will not accept it because "weve always done it this way !"

Its a good disscusion, and as Dom says, economics do come into play if you want to make a living out of your "hobby" And of course, its got to be a backyard hobby, with security, otherwise, {Dom quoted in the past about empty ponds} your fish will grow wings overnight and be gone,,

Happy New Year Dom,

Cheers, Lickey..

[grimleybob]

Bob, I try not to encourage nor discourage people when it comes to ventures involving their hard earned cash.

I try to assist with their problems based on my experiences.

In this case I really do not feel the system is cost effective ,at least in Thailand where fresh veggies are normally so cheap and easily had.

As a commercial fish farmer here I am acutely aware of the problems associated with growing Tilapia,and it must be pointed out that the whole system is dependant on having X amount of fish in the system to provide the required effluent, any problem with the fish and the system turns into a hydroponics system.

The system may be ok in western countries where veggies are expensive or for a person who does it for a hobby, and we all know hobbies are for pleasure and not usually cost effective.

The main problem I see is the frequent power outages here in LOS , A tank of Tilapia would not last 30 minutes once water exchange and/or aeration ceases and to provide an emergency generator puts the capitol outlay to high for any benefits to be attained.

You make some valid points that I will try to address.

This system is used commercially in Malaysia.(Round 3m plastic tanks etc)

There are some floating bed systems growing commercialy in Thailand.

You definitely need a backup power system.

You challenged my figure of 500 tilapia in a 3mx1.2m circular tank in fact according to a research paper I have,read carried out in China, they stocked three tanks at 400 tilapia per cu meter @50Gr and grew them to 5/600Gr in 150 days at an FCR of 1.34.

As for the veg you choose to grow the veg that brings the best return. With this system ,you never have a dry season

Another advantage is that you can have several tanks with different species giving you a better chance of retailing more of your stock. You can also stagger your harvesting.

Later in the year I should have my system up and running and you will be welcome to come see

bob

Bob,As an experiment I do not doubt the figures you quote,but the practicalities are a different matter.

For instance ,the pump required for pumping /aeration would need to be about 2 hp running 24/7. Two units per hour useage at 3.2 baht per hour (Thai price) =about 153 baht per day or23,000 baht for the 150 day growing period.

The selling price of the 240kg of fish @70bt per kg is 16,800 Baht leaving the experiment 6,200 baht in the red without adding feed costs.

Floating bed (raft growing is carried out all over the world)and usually done where a grower is water rich and land poor.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against alternative methods ,It is the cost effectiveness I am pointing out.

A bit more info

I have sourced ,in Thailand, a stainless submersible dirty waterpump that pumps 3cu M per hour and uses 0.55 Kw H

using your figures thats 40bht per day x 150 = 6000bht

I would hope that the 240 kilo could be retailed from the gate and local markets at a slightly higher rate. While they'r selling the fish they can sell some veg at no extra cost

But until its tried --- who knows? For me it seems easier than digging a great big pond, I've got the land to do it but plenty of people hav'nt.

bob

[Lickey]

No problems Bob, go for it, Our hillside farm 40rai, is ideal for collecting rainwater, dig a pond/lake at the bottom and put some fingerlings in, allsorts, see what grows ect, that was 4.5 years ago, when i read posts on here regarding fish farming and then go to the local market, choose a flapping fish, and the good lady clubs it, takes the head off and tail ect, fillets it perfectly for 80bht a kilo,[could be 3 fish, ] But good luck to you, hope it works,,

[IsaanAussie]

Bob,

My experience shows me that Thai rural people are risk averse. Understandable since money is scarce. This is revealed by a lack of innovation or the adoption of new ideas, maddening at times because it appears so negative. I suppose I could be seen as tending that way myself after living amongst it for a few years. I imagine others on this forum may feel the same way.

Do not be discouraged by what you perceive as negativity. From what I have read on this topic, most is well intentioned advice. Like most of us, you will make mistakes and you will have wins, but do not give up. Keep one eye focused on what you want to achieve, and the other on the reality of returns here. Being convinced of your own ability to make something happen will not be matched by market need or price in like amount.

As we say at the cricket in Australia during slow play, HAVE A GO YA MUG!

Isaan Aussie

[ozzydom]

Hi Dom, you old tasmanian devil!, good to see you posting again on your favorite subject,, I dunno mate, perhaps we gotta stand back and let new tecnologies take over??I think us old buggers will gradually accept new stuff, unlike a thai farmer who will not accept it because "weve always done it this way !"

Its a good disscusion, and as Dom says, economics do come into play if you want to make a living out of your "hobby" And of course, its got to be a backyard hobby, with security, otherwise, {Dom quoted in the past about empty ponds} your fish will grow wings overnight and be gone,,

Happy New Year Dom,

Cheers, Lickey..

Cheers Lickey old mate and a Happy New Year to you and yours, Will only be on line spasmodically as I leave tomorrow for Cambodia "again",am on another of my freebie chores again ,setting up a small fish pond to supply protein for an Ozzie backed orphanage.

Catch up to you soon.

cheers

dom

[grimleybob]

Bob,

My experience shows me that Thai rural people are risk averse. Understandable since money is scarce. This is revealed by a lack of innovation or the adoption of new ideas, maddening at times because it appears so negative. I suppose I could be seen as tending that way myself after living amongst it for a few years. I imagine others on this forum may feel the same way.

Do not be discouraged by what you perceive as negativity. From what I have read on this topic, most is well intentioned advice. Like most of us, you will make mistakes and you will have wins, but do not give up. Keep one eye focused on what you want to achieve, and the other on the reality of returns here. Being convinced of your own ability to make something happen will not be matched by market need or price in like amount.

As we say at the cricket in Australia during slow play, HAVE A GO YA MUG!

Isaan Aussie

AS you've already noticed I enjoy a good debate, and I do call a spade a shovel as they say in Yorkshire, but I listen and take in the arguments of others and when I'm wrong I'm the first to admit it.

Happy CNY

[billd766]

I was in a place at Nakhon Sawan yesterday that sells loads of sump pumps and they are now selling a pump called

Lucky Pro GP250F which has a max lift of 7 metres and a max flow of 8,000 litres per hour.

Far too much I know but it also has an electronic float switch and when the tank level is too low it kicks the pump in.

The only timers I have found so far allow for 2 on/off cycles per 24 hours.

I was looking around NS yesterday but still could not find any sort of tank to put fish in and baths were on off at 9 to 12,000 baht which sort of defeats the object.

I suspect that in the end I lay a concrete slab about 1.5 wide and 2 metres long and 1 metre high and build a brick tank that can be expanded if the need arises.

[grimleybob]

I was in a place at Nakhon Sawan yesterday that sells loads of sump pumps and they are now selling a pump called

Lucky Pro GP250F which has a max lift of 7 metres and a max flow of 8,000 litres per hour.

Far too much I know but it also has an electronic float switch and when the tank level is too low it kicks the pump in.

The only timers I have found so far allow for 2 on/off cycles per 24 hours.

I was looking around NS yesterday but still could not find any sort of tank to put fish in and baths were on off at 9 to 12,000 baht which sort of defeats the object.

I suspect that in the end I lay a concrete slab about 1.5 wide and 2 metres long and 1 metre high and build a brick tank that can be expanded if the need arises.

The blue plastic tanks are available somewhere in Thailand, I read about them in a previous Post @3800bht. I'll try to find the poster and give you the info

Bob

[RedBullHorn]

That would be me

฿3'800 is the price in Chiang Rai Krup...

You could try places that sells water storage tank in you area.

Edited February 9, 2011 by RedBullHorn

[grimleybob]

That would be me

฿3'800 is the price in Chiang Rai Krup...

You could try places that sells water storage tank in you area.

Thanks RBH I've just spent 25 mins looking and you pipped me to the Post

Bob

PS What do you reckon the the food cost is for growing 1000 kilo of cat fish. Would 150days be about right

Edited February 9, 2011 by grimleybob

[grimleybob]

I was in a place at Nakhon Sawan yesterday that sells loads of sump pumps and they are now selling a pump called

Lucky Pro GP250F which has a max lift of 7 metres and a max flow of 8,000 litres per hour.

Far too much I know but it also has an electronic float switch and when the tank level is too low it kicks the pump in.

The only timers I have found so far allow for 2 on/off cycles per 24 hours.

I was looking around NS yesterday but still could not find any sort of tank to put fish in and baths were on off at 9 to 12,000 baht which sort of defeats the object.

I suspect that in the end I lay a concrete slab about 1.5 wide and 2 metres long and 1 metre high and build a brick tank that can be expanded if the need arises.

You don't need a float switch because in a recirculating system the pump runs 24/7. The whole Idea is that water level remains constant other than evapouration.

You need the smallest pump possible to achieve sufficient aireation in the tank. With a pump half that size you will be changing the water in the tank every 2 hours

Edited February 9, 2011 by grimleybob

[RedBullHorn]

That would be me

฿3'800 is the price in Chiang Rai Krup...

You could try places that sells water storage tank in you area.

Thanks RBH I've just spent 25 mins looking and you pipped me to the Post

Bob

PS What do you reckon the the food cost is for growing 1000 kilo of cat fish. Would 150days be about right

Hi Bob,

We always count by the number of fries instate of by kilo, I always emphasize that PVC tank or concrete tank culture is different from earthen pond...differential in water level, water temperature and bedding material.

With a 24/7 water circulation system in a tank culture, 1000 fries size 3''-4'' inches takes about 8 - 8.5 sacks of pellet feed to reach marketable size of 5,6,7 fishes/kg between 110-120 days is achievable.

Edited February 10, 2011 by RedBullHorn

[billd766]

Thanks Bob