Thaksin's Lawyer Robert Amsterdam Brings Crackdown On Reds To International Criminal Court

[philw]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

yes, you are.

It's amazing how all these threads ( and there have been many ) get subverted into " hate Thaksinisms " and so quickly become insulting to anybody expressing an alternative view to the established ( rather small ) clique.

[jdinasia]

Scroll up phil and see who started slinging first :)You or me?

The fact that the title of this thread's first word is ... "Thaksin's" seems to have missed the mark with some folks!

[sharecropper]

If that was your lawyer you'd have to sack him, for his lack of preparation, lack of understanding of the wider context of the dispute, and his bumbling, uselessness. Great interviewer though.

Perhaps Robert had more of "Amsterdam" in him than we know.

[philw]

[

Maybe it could possibly be about the misrepresentations of the Gov't and Army ??

Possibly about people having an interest in the truth ??

The responsibilities of the military for the people ??

Wealth discrepancies.

Double standards

Nepotism and elitism

Whatever.................

Need I go on ?

I think There is an American expression for the obsession with Thaksin ( who I detest BTW ) beginning with A and ending with L.

Personally, I think a lot more than Thaksin is at stake here.

You are right ... there are wealth discrepancies. (less in Thailand than many places)

There are Double Standards --- (you of course know that phrase stared being used in Thailand after the 2001 assets concealment case riight?) The fact that yellows have been convicted before reds etc ...

The responsibility of the military to answer to a civilian government (not be ridden rough-shod over by a violent minority)

Got to take you up on your last sentence.

Is there any time since ww2 that the military have demonstrated answerability to a civilian government in Thailand ??

They run the show in all respects.

[ballpoint]

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4183225

and just yesterday .... "Thaksin urges supporters to vote phue thai to bring him home ......

but really .....

tt --- this isn't about social issues. This is about Thaksin. If it were about social issues you would be applauding the work being done by Abhisit and Korn. You aren't, you are just bringing up old news that can be refuted easily. (and not just by The Nation articles)

Exactly. The glaring lack of posts from the "balance giving" posters on the "Thaksin urges" thread, the "Thaksin appoints Yingluk" thread, the "Chalerm supports Yingluk" thread, and every other thread clearly showing his dirty hands pulling the reds political arm's strings, speaks volumes. By all means, let's debate policies to help the poor. Let's start with the red leaders statements as to what their aim is once they successfully kick the current government out. Oh, they don't have one. Okay, how 'bout their political arm, the PTP? Right, bring back Thaksin, pardon him of all crimes, past and future, and put him back in the chair. Okay, let's persevere, Thaksin's solution? A magical one that will only work if you truly believe in him and he is seated right back in afore mentioned chair. Square faced man bring heap big voodoo. Or is it just (again) square faced man speak with forked tongue?

[philw]

Scroll up phil and see who started slinging first :)You or me?

The fact that the title of this thread's first word is ... "Thaksin's" seems to have missed the mark with some folks!

Good night.

I have to feed the labradors, have a bath and roger a couple of the staff.

[truethailand]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

yes, you are.

It's amazing how all these threads ( and there have been many ) get subverted into " hate Thaksinisms " and so quickly become insulting to anybody expressing an alternative view to the established ( rather small ) clique.

Is the rather small clique the Gof7 (as I call them) Bad news Nations opened its chequebook and there more of them. Without the hate figure Khun Thaksin they would have to address the real issues. Most of them have something in the message at the bottom of their posts relating to their hatred of Thaksin, Normal people would write a message like "the sex was that good even the neighbours lit a cigarette' but which person can be that obsessed with discrediting a person at every opportunity. They've been sussed but dont worry boys just keep picking up your cheques

[Insight]

Scroll up phil and see who started slinging first :)You or me?

The fact that the title of this thread's first word is ... "Thaksin's" seems to have missed the mark with some folks!

Good night.

I have to feed the labradors, have a bath and roger a couple of the staff.

Now we know why you back the reds

[jillwilliams999]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,742653,00.html Thai PM Gave 'Carte Blanche Order to Massacre Civilians'

[jdinasia]

Is the rather small clique the Gof7 (as I call them) Bad news Nations opened its chequebook and there more of them. Without the hate figure Khun Thaksin they would have to address the real issues. Most of them have something in the message at the bottom of their posts relating to their hatred of Thaksin, Normal people would write a message like "the sex was that good even the neighbours lit a cigarette' but which person can be that obsessed with discrediting a person at every opportunity. They've been sussed but dont worry boys just keep picking up your cheques

Ah ... back to the accusations of being paid posters (which remarkably is how you started your career on TVF -- accusing people that beat you soundly in any political debate, or even discussion of the news, of being paid to post.) How you started with that diatribe so very very quickly upon joining makes the mind boggle. The fact is that there are MANY people that detest Thaksin and the atrocities he committed whilst in office. These people don't have to be paid to point out your inaccuracies and failure to make a point; it comes easily and freely.

You brought up the reporters --- I pointed out where HE said he didn't know who shot him and the one that died, You posted the picture as evidence of indiscriminate firing by the military, and I pointed out that the picture looks FAR from indiscriminate (targeted even!) but you have to refer back to the guy that was shot. He didn't make the claim that you do. You cry about people talking about Thaksin ... in a thread where "Thaksin's" is the first word in the title. You say it is about social reform --- but if that were true then why aren't you applauding Abhisit's more far reaching and sustainable social welfare programs?

Your name-calling with the snide Gof7 title, belittles not the people that you are trying to, but instead just shows you to be someone that can't back his claims up with facts. Now that really IS sad.

[hanuman1]

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4183225

and just yesterday .... "Thaksin urges supporters to vote phue thai to bring him home ......

but really .....

tt --- this isn't about social issues. This is about Thaksin. If it were about social issues you would be applauding the work being done by Abhisit and Korn. You aren't, you are just bringing up old news that can be refuted easily. (and not just by The Nation articles)

Exactly. The glaring lack of posts from the "balance giving" posters on the "Thaksin urges" thread, the "Thaksin appoints Yingluk" thread, the "Chalerm supports Yingluk" thread, and every other thread clearly showing his dirty hands pulling the reds political arm's strings, speaks volumes. By all means, let's debate policies to help the poor. Let's start with the red leaders statements as to what their aim is once they successfully kick the current government out. Oh, they don't have one. Okay, how 'bout their political arm, the PTP? Right, bring back Thaksin, pardon him of all crimes, past and future, and put him back in the chair. Okay, let's persevere, Thaksin's solution? A magical one that will only work if you truly believe in him and he is seated right back in afore mentioned chair. Square faced man bring heap big voodoo. Or is it just (again) square faced man speak with forked tongue?

You still don't get the nature of the relationship between the red shirt movement and the PTP. I don't rally blame you, it's not easy to define, but as usual the easy way to think becomes the right way to think for the anti-red obsessives.

Thaksin's recent call for people to vote PTP in order to get him back suggests that he at least thinks he holds sway with the PTP. Regardless of whether he actually does or not, the fact remains that the PTP itself is split almost down the middle about how closely allied it should be to the UDD, who themselves are just a faction - albeit the most vociferous and arguably largest - of the red shirt movement.

But don't let any of that pesky detail keep you from your self-serving obsession. Thaksin's the bogeyman, yay! PTP = red shirts, yay! I'm so right, yay! dam_n, that felt good.

Edited January 31, 2011 by hanuman1

[animatic]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

[Ricardo]

Is the rather small clique the Gof7 (as I call them) Bad news Nations opened its chequebook and there more of them. Without the hate figure Khun Thaksin they would have to address the real issues. Most of them have something in the message at the bottom of their posts relating to their hatred of Thaksin, Normal people would write a message like "the sex was that good even the neighbours lit a cigarette' but which person can be that obsessed with discrediting a person at every opportunity. They've been sussed but dont worry boys just keep picking up your cheques

"Nations opened its chequebook" and "don't worry boys just keep picking up your cheques" ?

Do you really mean to suggest, that people on TV are being paid by the Nation-newspaper, to post ? I find this hard to believe, but would love to see your proof, without which this is just flaming.

Thank heavens for the Ignore-option.

[Buchholz]

"I am a Thai citizen, not Montenegrin," Abhisit later said, in a jibe at the Reds' hero and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who has been given citizenship of Montenegro.

hahahaha.... good one.

btw, Thaksin was not "given" citizenship in Montenegro. He bought it. For 500,000 Euro.

[jdinasia]

Thaksin's strength in PTP may have diminished some (please show me the 50/50 split you claim) ... but PTP is still the party of the Reds. Some of the MP's may not (note the use of the word "may") still be in Thaksin's pocket but the PTP is still reliant on the Reds (UDD and the rest) to get elected. But hey, don't let that little fact keep you from disclaiming the connections between the PTP, the reds, and Thaksin! After all, now Thaksin's lawyer is trying to file a case before the ICC for ... who ...? oh yeah the Reds!

I understand it isn't easy for you to define --- but let me help you some --- PTP publicly calls for Thaksin's return. Jatuporn the PTP MP and one of a couple of core redshirt leaders that are PTP MP's has done the same, Thaksin calls for people to vote PTP so he may come home.

I learned the basic mathematical truth in grade school ... If A=B and B=C then A=C.

If you need further help linking the people together, take a look at the papers in Thailand. Listen to Al Jazeera. Read TVF. Look at the names of the people whose accounts were frozen for funding the protests and their links to Thaksin ..... or then again just make snide one word replies when caught out.

[Buchholz]

The report, prepared by the red shirts’ Toronto-based legal team

Amsterdam has acknowledged that former Thai prime minster Thaksin Shinawatra, who was deposed in the 2006 coup, is helping to pay the movement’s legal expenses.

still true

Red Shirts = Thaksin

[hanuman1]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

[jdinasia]

The report, prepared by the red shirts' Toronto-based legal team

Amsterdam has acknowledged that former Thai prime minster Thaksin Shinawatra, who was deposed in the 2006 coup, is helping to pay the movement's legal expenses.

still true

Red Shirts = Thaksin

Thaksin Urges Supporters To Vote Pheu Thai To Bring Him Home

still true

PTP=Thaksin

Edited January 31, 2011 by jdinasia

[animatic]

The report, prepared by the red shirts' Toronto-based legal team

Amsterdam has acknowledged that former Thai prime minster Thaksin Shinawatra, who was deposed in the 2006 coup, is helping to pay the movement's legal expenses.

still true

Red Shirts = Thaksin

Thaksin's lawyer in Toronto = The report, prepared by the red shirts’ Toronto-based legal team

[truethailand]

Solicitor Amsterdams prelimimnary submission staement

[hanuman1]

Solicitor Amsterdams prelimimnary submission staement

I really can't see how the ICC will take this case on. It seems that even just submitting it to the ICC and having it blown out of the water is better than not submitting it at all as far as the Thaksin/A'dam team is concerned. Surely even they can't imagine it will succeed.

[truethailand]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I have a few words to describe them if you are stuck... Taxi

[Buchholz]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,742653,00.html Thai PM Gave 'Carte Blanche Order to Massacre Civilians'

Robert Amsterdam:

We have a reasonable basis to argue that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva personally ordered the military to assassinate the Red Shirt leaders.

When that plan was botched, he authorized the army to brutally clamp down on unarmed demonstrators.

SPIEGEL:

It will be easy for Abhisit to argue that your ICC complaint is just a PR stunt.

Amsterdam:

I would doubt that. We'll put the evidence out there for the prosecutor at the ICC as well as for other interested countries and NGOs.

SPIEGEL:

Did you go to Thailand yourself to speak to the witnesses?

Amsterdam:

I was in Bangkok during the May massacre. Ever since, I'm barred from entering the country. My picture has been posted in the immigration booths at the airports -- not because I committed any crime, but because the government apparently wants to take revenge on me for representing Thaksin. But we do have partners who are able to go back and forth and secretly meet with informants. Their job has become increasingly difficult. In part, they are surveilled in Bangkok. Witnesses have been threatened not to speak with us. This is hardly the kind of behaviour you would hope to see from the country that currently serves as president of the UN Human Rights Commission.

SPIEGEL:

Some of the accounts are detailed reports right from the center of power. It seems it would be easy to identify some of them, especially "Witness 22."

Amsterdam:

That's the reason why his account is actually an amalgam of the testimony of a number of people. Every one of them would be prepared to make an appearance in The Hague, if needed. But until then, we have to protect their identities.

SPIEGEL:

Why did you not try to involve independent Thai institutions?

Amsterdam:

We approached a number of them but nobody dares to cooperate.

Thailand today is some sort of Burma with luxury hotels. The military is the dominant force. A very large number of civilians live in acute fear. People disappear. Again and again, bodies are found with hands bound and bullets in their heads.

SPIEGEL:

But your move in The Hague will most likely end in vain. Thailand has never ratified the Rome statute and thus is not subjected to the rulings of the ICC.

Amsterdam:

That's doesn't make our endeavour easier, but it's not legally hopeless either. First of all, this evidence represents the best documentation on human rights abuses in Thai history. That's something in itself, and it will lead to tremendous pressure on the government. But as to Abhisit, we are optimistic that at least he himself might indeed stand trial at The Hague.

SPIEGEL:

How?

Amsterdam:

We believe that Abhisit is a British subject.

SPIEGEL:

The Prime Minister of Thailand?

Amsterdam:

He was born in 1964 in the English city of Newcastle. That makes him a British national unless he has formally renounced his British citizenship later on, which we do doubt. The UK had better sort out quickly whether Abhisit is indeed a British national.

[truethailand]

Have people read some of the BS in these reports? Here's statement #59 by "Anonymous Witness 22"

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area. By 17:00 hours, the Army had fully secured all of the Central World buildings. Allcivilians were removed from the buildings, including numerous security guards who worked at Central World. After the civilians were removed, soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion were posted outside Central World to prevent anyone from approaching or entering. The purpose of this exercise was to

permit a team of arsonists contracted by the Army to plant incendiary devices inside Central World. These devices were intentionally ignited at approximately 17:45 hours, destroying the Zen store building. The operation was planned by the Army Leadership, with the consent and approval of the Government Leadership, several weeks in advance of May 19. The purpose of the operation was to cement in the public mind the concept that the Red Shirt movement was violent and dangerous, which the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership believed would create the impression that the Army's actions in suppressing the Red Shirts were justified. In fact, the Red Shirts had nothing to do

with the fires that destroyed part of the Central World complex.

Available here http://www.thaiaccou...ness-No.-22.pdf

I'm sure there's more than a few witnesses on ThaiVisa who can testify that the reds had planted "incendiary devices" days before May 19th, along with the footage of red shirts burning and looting the place.

/edit - Here's my own favourite from that day:

Thanks for the link. It would only be fair to let people read it all, read the other statement links on this thread, check you tube and other sources, then let them make their own minds up. Why try to direct people to the most questionable piece of the statement, the rest makes very interesting reading and appears factual. If true it paints an awful picture for some. I am waiting for Thaivisa witnesses to confirm they saw the planting of incendiary devices prior to the 19th in that mall. My Gran would refer to you as 'all piss and wind' no substance. My gran knew a 'wrong un'

Edited January 31, 2011 by truethailand

[jdinasia]

Thanks for the link. It would only be fair to let people read it all, read the other statement links on this thread, check you tube and other sources, then let them make their own minds up. Why try to direct people to the most questionable piece of the statement, the rest makes very interesting reading and appears factual. If true it paints an awful picture for some.

If they are submitting it as TRUTH then it should all be open to inspection and discussion. The same way that I took down your "reporters" argument earlier in the thread. With multiple sources ALL referring to the fact that the reds were targeting journos ... and with clear refutation of what your posted picture describes.

It isn't as if this is going before the ICC --- as Hanuman rightly puts forward --- this is just all Thaksin propaganda (his lawyer, his dime) trying to dirty up the government. It'll fail, but apparently Thaksin needs to try ANYTHING to reduce the growing popularity of the government all over Thailand including in Isaan and the North.

[whybother]

Have people read some of the BS in these reports? Here's statement #59 by "Anonymous Witness 22"

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area. By 17:00 hours, the Army had fully secured all of the Central World buildings. Allcivilians were removed from the buildings, including numerous security guards who worked at Central World. After the civilians were removed, soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion were posted outside Central World to prevent anyone from approaching or entering. The purpose of this exercise was to

permit a team of arsonists contracted by the Army to plant incendiary devices inside Central World. These devices were intentionally ignited at approximately 17:45 hours, destroying the Zen store building. The operation was planned by the Army Leadership, with the consent and approval of the Government Leadership, several weeks in advance of May 19. The purpose of the operation was to cement in the public mind the concept that the Red Shirt movement was violent and dangerous, which the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership believed would create the impression that the Army's actions in suppressing the Red Shirts were justified. In fact, the Red Shirts had nothing to do

with the fires that destroyed part of the Central World complex.

Available here http://www.thaiaccou...ness-No.-22.pdf

I'm sure there's more than a few witnesses on ThaiVisa who can testify that the reds had planted "incendiary devices" days before May 19th, along with the footage of red shirts burning and looting the place.

/edit - Here's my own favourite from that day:

If you are correct and it's total BS, as you say, then Amsterdam has just destroyed his professional reputation merely to further Thaksin's lies.

However, ( excuse the pun ) What if there is a kernel of truth in these statements ??

What if there is more than a kernel ??

It's either a complete fabrication or there has to be an element of truth.

Must be one or the other.

Either way, someone is caught out.

There IS a kernel of truth in this. I picked out the only one in the quoted text.

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area.

[animatic]

At reaching majority a child of Thai nationals born abroad must choose nationality. One or the other. This legal angle is as long a stretch as can be imagined. Abhisit is clearly Thai, and Amsterdam is just spouting off, or milking billable hours time in court.

[Insight]

Have people read some of the BS in these reports? Here's statement #59 by "Anonymous Witness 22"

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area. By 17:00 hours, the Army had fully secured all of the Central World buildings. Allcivilians were removed from the buildings, including numerous security guards who worked at Central World. After the civilians were removed, soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion were posted outside Central World to prevent anyone from approaching or entering. The purpose of this exercise was to

permit a team of arsonists contracted by the Army to plant incendiary devices inside Central World. These devices were intentionally ignited at approximately 17:45 hours, destroying the Zen store building. The operation was planned by the Army Leadership, with the consent and approval of the Government Leadership, several weeks in advance of May 19. The purpose of the operation was to cement in the public mind the concept that the Red Shirt movement was violent and dangerous, which the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership believed would create the impression that the Army’s actions in suppressing the Red Shirts were justified. In fact, the Red Shirts had nothing to do

with the fires that destroyed part of the Central World complex.

Available here http://www.thaiaccou...ness-No.-22.pdf

I'm sure there's more than a few witnesses on ThaiVisa who can testify that the reds had planted "incendiary devices" days before May 19th, along with the footage of red shirts burning and looting the place.

/edit - Here's my own favourite from that day:

Thanks for the link. It would only be fair to let people read it all, read the other statement links on this thread, check you tube and other sources, then let them make their own minds up. Why try to direct people to the most questionable piece of the statement, the rest makes very interesting reading and appears factual. If true it paints an awful picture for some.

Thanks for admitting this claim is "questionable" (not half)

What about the so-called "black shirts" being trained by the army since the 2006 coup as another method of discrediting the reds? Need to see more evidence of collaboration between the two groups other than the clip I've previously posted?

[Insight]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I have a few words to describe them if you are stuck... Taxi

That's three of the ... ahem ... "GoF7" nailed....

[LikeHeat]

http://www.spiegel.d...,742653,00.html Thai PM Gave 'Carte Blanche Order to Massacre Civilians'

It would seem credible if Amsterdam could actually document that he was denied entry to Thailand, rather some wild accusation of his picture being everywhere in Immigration. That is delusional talk, and he is not that important. I bet he can come and go as he pleases.

It would also seem credible if Amsterdam had said that he reviewed the footage from the Army and had some problems with authenticity, etc, but to say there is no footage to show any Red acting aggressively is .... simply not credible. I would hope he has put more effort into the "evidence" that he has collected. I mean he can come up with close associates spilling the beans but cannot find any video footage showing Reds carrying and using weapons. Is this all a fabrication or how did they gather their "evidence"?

To ignore everything that does not paint the picture you want is not credible, but I am sure that is not what it is all about. Simply being able to make the statements and have them parroted far and wide is the only game being played. People remember the headline even if the story in the article is totally false. The Reds want the sound bite that grabs attention and the Reds have shown they are good at that, even if they sometimes have to resort to piecing together various bits and pieces to create the story they want.

Oh, and crying genocide for restoring order during a very out of control "peaceful" demonstration is hardly the same as sending the troops to kill all the Isaan people. Again, it not about the truth but rather the ability to say outrageous things have the media and others eat it up.