The Cows Milk / Soy Milk Debate

[tim armstrong]

Like some others in Thailand, I'm way too fat, don't exercise enough, and I'm middle aged. But I'm now trying yet again to motivate myself to seriously do something about it, because I'm tired of being lethargic, and have no wish to die yet.

Being a farmers' son I like cows' milk. But I'm told its not that good for adults. But I struggle to believe that. I've found a soy milk that is 4.5% sugar, which seems to be the lowest around, and is easily available. So question, is soy milk better for you, than cows' and why ?

[happyrobert]

If your idea of improving your physical fitness includes a pair of man boobs, soy's the thing for you!

Phytoestrogens in soy products mimic the human ones.... so drink up, and, er, grow a pair!

[GizmoBKK]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

[tim armstrong]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

Thanks Gizmo,

For sure the exercise has to improve. Its embarrassing when you tell people that you used to be a marathon runner,and they look at you and say - really? Worse, when the steel frame bicycle you rode 28k's a day on not so long ago has a crack probably because of your weight. Motivate! motivate! regards.

[Simone32]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

Thanks Gizmo,

For sure the exercise has to improve. Its embarrassing when you tell people that you used to be a marathon runner,and they look at you and say - really? Worse, when the steel frame bicycle you rode 28k's a day on not so long ago has a crack probably because of your weight. Motivate! motivate! regards.

You are both absolutely right, Tim and Gizmo. Motivation is the key, but where to find it? I used to be a fat child, and by the age of 16, I weighed around a 100 kilos. Which seriously shocked me at that time, and I started to diet and to do sports, and to bring my weight down to 70 kg. Since then, it has been going up and down and up and down, but I have never reached the 100 kilos again. What I gained from that is a an early and pretty good insight of the mechanics of the brain, motivation and dieting and all that stuff. And although I consider myself quite experienced, I still have the times when I gain weight again until a point where I could hit the mirror when I see myself. And although I can see myself growing and the trousers not fitting anymore and so on, and I am aware of it and even becoming more frustrated, because I cannot do anything. That means I don't have the motivation to do something and prefer to eat and not to move. And I know exactly that physical exercise is necessary, as well as a healthy diet, to lose weight. And I even know that I usually feel good after a heavy exercise. My recent phases were like this. From about 2.5 years ago until last December, I have studied for an MBA part-time via online program while I have been working full-time. This means sitting around 80% of the day and having not much time for nothing. Last year, I was in the dissertation phase, and by then I had reached that point again that I mentioned above: I was way to fat again, with little chance for change. Around may, I was stuck in my thesis project and so frustrated, that I increasingly spend time exercising, at first purely to avoid the studies, but then more and more as a daily routine that I really enjoyed and I was looking forward to during work. Around September, when I had lost probably 3 sizes and was, maybe for the very first time in my life, in an excellent shape from the muscles and everything, I figured I had a problem. I was extremely behind with the studies, totally NOT motivated to do anything else but sports, but I had no choice. So I forced myself to stop the sport completely (I tried to do both things but it didn't work) and to finish my thesis. Soon, I came back in my daily routine of studying, and with all the pressure at the end I became motivated again and submitted the final paper mid december, before the deadline. Then was Christmas break, and in January, I figured I have plenty of time, no obligations to study, and no motivation to exercise. dam_n! I have been trying from the beginning of January to motivate myself again, postponing my intended training start from one week to the next, and seeing the belly growing again, week by week. Now, today is the third day I am exercising again - at least I will after I have submitted this post. I need to force myself, to be honest. My body and muscles are paining again from the last 2 days' exercise, but nevertheless I have the power again to force my lazy body to make push-ups, sit-up's and to use the dumbbell and so on. It has been since last September that I have done nothing, and with every day of not doing something it becomes more and more difficult. The first days will be painful and requiring you to force yourself to do something. Tim, force yourself for a run or at least a walk, even if it is only half a mile or a mile in the beginning. Force yourself to do it everyday, and since human beings are quite habit-oriented, maybe it becomes a habit soon so there is not so much need to find the motivation after a while. And possibly the comes from itself then? This is what I hope for in my case. So I have to do something now, and believe me, I really don't want to. But I know once I have started, I know I stop thinking about not wanting to.

All the best,

Simone

[tim armstrong]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

Thanks Gizmo,

For sure the exercise has to improve. Its embarrassing when you tell people that you used to be a marathon runner,and they look at you and say - really? Worse, when the steel frame bicycle you rode 28k's a day on not so long ago has a crack probably because of your weight. Motivate! motivate! regards.

You are both absolutely right, Tim and Gizmo. Motivation is the key, but where to find it? I used to be a fat child, and by the age of 16, I weighed around a 100 kilos. Which seriously shocked me at that time, and I started to diet and to do sports, and to bring my weight down to 70 kg. Since then, it has been going up and down and up and down, but I have never reached the 100 kilos again. What I gained from that is a an early and pretty good insight of the mechanics of the brain, motivation and dieting and all that stuff. And although I consider myself quite experienced, I still have the times when I gain weight again until a point where I could hit the mirror when I see myself. And although I can see myself growing and the trousers not fitting anymore and so on, and I am aware of it and even becoming more frustrated, because I cannot do anything. That means I don't have the motivation to do something and prefer to eat and not to move. And I know exactly that physical exercise is necessary, as well as a healthy diet, to lose weight. And I even know that I usually feel good after a heavy exercise. My recent phases were like this. From about 2.5 years ago until last December, I have studied for an MBA part-time via online program while I have been working full-time. This means sitting around 80% of the day and having not much time for nothing. Last year, I was in the dissertation phase, and by then I had reached that point again that I mentioned above: I was way to fat again, with little chance for change. Around may, I was stuck in my thesis project and so frustrated, that I increasingly spend time exercising, at first purely to avoid the studies, but then more and more as a daily routine that I really enjoyed and I was looking forward to during work. Around September, when I had lost probably 3 sizes and was, maybe for the very first time in my life, in an excellent shape from the muscles and everything, I figured I had a problem. I was extremely behind with the studies, totally NOT motivated to do anything else but sports, but I had no choice. So I forced myself to stop the sport completely (I tried to do both things but it didn't work) and to finish my thesis. Soon, I came back in my daily routine of studying, and with all the pressure at the end I became motivated again and submitted the final paper mid december, before the deadline. Then was Christmas break, and in January, I figured I have plenty of time, no obligations to study, and no motivation to exercise. dam_n! I have been trying from the beginning of January to motivate myself again, postponing my intended training start from one week to the next, and seeing the belly growing again, week by week. Now, today is the third day I am exercising again - at least I will after I have submitted this post. I need to force myself, to be honest. My body and muscles are paining again from the last 2 days' exercise, but nevertheless I have the power again to force my lazy body to make push-ups, sit-up's and to use the dumbbell and so on. It has been since last September that I have done nothing, and with every day of not doing something it becomes more and more difficult. The first days will be painful and requiring you to force yourself to do something. Tim, force yourself for a run or at least a walk, even if it is only half a mile or a mile in the beginning. Force yourself to do it everyday, and since human beings are quite habit-oriented, maybe it becomes a habit soon so there is not so much need to find the motivation after a while. And possibly the comes from itself then? This is what I hope for in my case. So I have to do something now, and believe me, I really don't want to. But I know once I have started, I know I stop thinking about not wanting to.

All the best,

Simone

Simone,

That was one of the best posts I've read on tv and a really good insight into motivation. Thanks very much. As serendipity would have it yesterday was the first day I got out the heavy duty bike and went for a ride. Only about 4klms and it nearly killed me, but easier to do this morning, so the distance will increase. I did an ankle in some years ago so can't jog, but I love cycling. Like you I should know about health, diet and exercise as I've worked for most of my life in the health sector. I've found in the past that motivation works best when there is a reason for it. Unfortunately or fortunately I was a country boy in Oz at a time when there were not many health services in rural areas. So you had to be tough, and you were taught to be stoic. So I learnt to put up with pain, illness and gradually becoming overweight. Over the years any health problems have had to be life threatening before I would do anything. I've had a couple. So I almost need to believe that I will die if I don't lose weight. At around 130kgs that's a possibility. For me that's a motivator. My ex wife died last year, quite quickly from cancer, so my sons said to me, 'Dad we don't want you to die as well -lose weight!' So that's a really good motivator. But your right I have had to force myself to take the first step.

It's a bit like 'the wall' at around 13 miles in a marathon. If you're running on a road the effort to lift your feet six inches onto a pavement at that point is almost too much. But once you have, you feel like you can run forever. So now that I have started to exercise, and enjoy it, and have changed the diet to mainly non meat fish,vegies,and fruit, I think I can keep it up...

I also had one of those light bulb moments the other day along the lines of - I'm really tired of being fat, and as tolerant as I may be, I'm just a bit tired of my Thai friends and family in their naive, but so accurate way, telling me "Your very fat now". When all the local schools for the first time in your 9 years in Thailand, ask you to be Santa Claus, you do get the message. So I hope this does become a habit, but,there is the other problem with habits -boredom. However, I have enough variety in both diet and exercise that I hope will take care of that. Best Regards

[Simone32]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

Thanks Gizmo,

For sure the exercise has to improve. Its embarrassing when you tell people that you used to be a marathon runner,and they look at you and say - really? Worse, when the steel frame bicycle you rode 28k's a day on not so long ago has a crack probably because of your weight. Motivate! motivate! regards.

You are both absolutely right, Tim and Gizmo. Motivation is the key, but where to find it? I used to be a fat child, and by the age of 16, I weighed around a 100 kilos. Which seriously shocked me at that time, and I started to diet and to do sports, and to bring my weight down to 70 kg. Since then, it has been going up and down and up and down, but I have never reached the 100 kilos again. What I gained from that is a an early and pretty good insight of the mechanics of the brain, motivation and dieting and all that stuff. And although I consider myself quite experienced, I still have the times when I gain weight again until a point where I could hit the mirror when I see myself. And although I can see myself growing and the trousers not fitting anymore and so on, and I am aware of it and even becoming more frustrated, because I cannot do anything. That means I don't have the motivation to do something and prefer to eat and not to move. And I know exactly that physical exercise is necessary, as well as a healthy diet, to lose weight. And I even know that I usually feel good after a heavy exercise. My recent phases were like this. From about 2.5 years ago until last December, I have studied for an MBA part-time via online program while I have been working full-time. This means sitting around 80% of the day and having not much time for nothing. Last year, I was in the dissertation phase, and by then I had reached that point again that I mentioned above: I was way to fat again, with little chance for change. Around may, I was stuck in my thesis project and so frustrated, that I increasingly spend time exercising, at first purely to avoid the studies, but then more and more as a daily routine that I really enjoyed and I was looking forward to during work. Around September, when I had lost probably 3 sizes and was, maybe for the very first time in my life, in an excellent shape from the muscles and everything, I figured I had a problem. I was extremely behind with the studies, totally NOT motivated to do anything else but sports, but I had no choice. So I forced myself to stop the sport completely (I tried to do both things but it didn't work) and to finish my thesis. Soon, I came back in my daily routine of studying, and with all the pressure at the end I became motivated again and submitted the final paper mid december, before the deadline. Then was Christmas break, and in January, I figured I have plenty of time, no obligations to study, and no motivation to exercise. dam_n! I have been trying from the beginning of January to motivate myself again, postponing my intended training start from one week to the next, and seeing the belly growing again, week by week. Now, today is the third day I am exercising again - at least I will after I have submitted this post. I need to force myself, to be honest. My body and muscles are paining again from the last 2 days' exercise, but nevertheless I have the power again to force my lazy body to make push-ups, sit-up's and to use the dumbbell and so on. It has been since last September that I have done nothing, and with every day of not doing something it becomes more and more difficult. The first days will be painful and requiring you to force yourself to do something. Tim, force yourself for a run or at least a walk, even if it is only half a mile or a mile in the beginning. Force yourself to do it everyday, and since human beings are quite habit-oriented, maybe it becomes a habit soon so there is not so much need to find the motivation after a while. And possibly the comes from itself then? This is what I hope for in my case. So I have to do something now, and believe me, I really don't want to. But I know once I have started, I know I stop thinking about not wanting to.

All the best,

Simone

Simone,

That was one of the best posts I've read on tv and a really good insight into motivation. Thanks very much. As serendipity would have it yesterday was the first day I got out the heavy duty bike and went for a ride. Only about 4klms and it nearly killed me, but easier to do this morning, so the distance will increase. I did an ankle in some years ago so can't jog, but I love cycling. Like you I should know about health, diet and exercise as I've worked for most of my life in the health sector. I've found in the past that motivation works best when there is a reason for it. Unfortunately or fortunately I was a country boy in Oz at a time when there were not many health services in rural areas. So you had to be tough, and you were taught to be stoic. So I learnt to put up with pain, illness and gradually becoming overweight. Over the years any health problems have had to be life threatening before I would do anything. I've had a couple. So I almost need to believe that I will die if I don't lose weight. At around 130kgs that's a possibility. For me that's a motivator. My ex wife died last year, quite quickly from cancer, so my sons said to me, 'Dad we don't want you to die as well -lose weight!' So that's a really good motivator. But your right I have had to force myself to take the first step.

It's a bit like 'the wall' at around 13 miles in a marathon. If you're running on a road the effort to lift your feet six inches onto a pavement at that point is almost too much. But once you have, you feel like you can run forever. So now that I have started to exercise, and enjoy it, and have changed the diet to mainly non meat fish,vegies,and fruit, I think I can keep it up...

I also had one of those light bulb moments the other day along the lines of - I'm really tired of being fat, and as tolerant as I may be, I'm just a bit tired of my Thai friends and family in their naive, but so accurate way, telling me "Your very fat now". When all the local schools for the first time in your 9 years in Thailand, ask you to be Santa Claus, you do get the message. So I hope this does become a habit, but,there is the other problem with habits -boredom. However, I have enough variety in both diet and exercise that I hope will take care of that. Best Regards

Hi Tim,

I am very happy to hear that you really went for a ride with your bike, this is so cool. And NO, it is not "only" 4 km's, it is "even" for km's. How long has it been with daily rides of zero km's? So I guess even one single mile would have been much more than in those days. I can only encourage you to go for a ride as often as you can, and if you do, you will see that in no time, 4 km's will not even be remotely enough to warm you up. From that point you might be bored - but I am sure not from (the habit of) cycling, but from only 4 kms, so you will go further until you have this feeling of nearly being killed by over-cycling again. You mentioned that you enjoy the exercise, and I do so, too. Even though I still need to kick my own butt to do something, it has become less painful and more habitual, and I hope in a couple of weeks there will be no more inner dispute of doing it or not, but simply do it because it has become purely habitual. And the fun of doing it will not disappear, even the contrary. It can be nice to challenge oneself sometimes. In my case, it is something like "if I manage to do 25 push-ups now, how long would it take to do 50, 80 or even 100 - or is this something I cannot do?" I don't want to answer with no, because it should not be impossible. But I know if I keep on exercising and I would see in 6 months that I would really be able to do 50 push-ups and remember that I did it in 6 months, then you can be sure that I would be motivated like hell to arrive at the 100 in another 6 months time. Exercising simply feels good, particularly afterwards, when the body is tired and the brain full of lucky feelings, and in our cases probably also with pride of ourselves, because believe me, this is something we can be proud of. I have also noted in the past few days that I am much less stressed, from work and from life in general. I don't know how to say, maybe I feel more balanced? And since nothing has changed in my life but the fact that I exercise again and eating more healthy, I can only relate it to those 2 things. And I really hope you find the fun again on exercising, and I would be most curious to hear your updates, how it goes for you, and if you perceive the changes of body and mind as nicely and satisfactory as I do.

I also cannot imagine that a motivation to loose weight has to be something life-threatening, as you mentioned. Having said the above, maybe you can try not to focus purely on loosing weight? If you focus on exercising and to do it regularly and the joy of doing it, as well as eating healthily, then the weight issue will be tackled automatically as you will see yourself shrinking. And this, dear Tim, will actually become a real motivator. I know the beginning is the hardest part, and the first 2 or 3 weeks are the most painful. The body is aching like hell after exercising, the stomach is constantly hurting and screaming for all kinds of food, and then slowly, it adapts. After the exercise, there are no more paining muscles, and the stomach is happy with much smaller portions of much healthier stuff. And after the body has adapted, you will start to see and feel the changes. I think in your case (if your weight is 130 kgs), it might go fairly quickly in the beginning, and you should have visible changes after a few weeks. And from the point that you are able to see the changes yourself, and where you see that you need to make your belt tighter and tighter every week and your trousers not fitting anymore, then you probably become really motivated. And if you succeed to loose 10 or 20 kgs, then why shouldn't you simply keep on going (provided you start on the way of really enjoying the exercise) and easily go below the 100 kgs, or any weight you want to have?

The story with your Thai friends or family who tell you that you are fat is another thing. I have always enjoyed to make people stunned and surprised. When I was a teenager, I probably did it with weird hair cuts and colors and piercings, but since then there has not been so much I could people impress with. But always when I had a time when I lost weight, I really liked when people came and stared as they hadn't seen me in a while. And I really wish that the naive "you are fat" of your friends will get stuck in their throats when they see you one day, and you exercised so much that they barely recognize you. As I said, I would be truly grateful for an update every now and then on your progress

All the best,

Simone

[tim armstrong]

Thanks very much Simone for the encouragement. Maybe this conversation might turn into a book yet. I'm up to 14 klms now and contemplating more tomorrow. Some eating setbacks due to some stress as I'm a comfort eater, but still motivated.I'll keep you posted. One good motivator, - when roadside restaurant owners rush to find you their solid old wooden stool, as they did today, rather than the blue plastic chair, you detect a message in it. Cheers, Tim

[MisterMan]

I do believe that most soy milk comes form GMO soy beans and is quite processed.

[MisterMan]

I do believe that most soy milk comes form GMO soy beans and is quite processed. How about making your own nut milk?

Throw some cashews or almonds in the blender with some water and strain or or not strain.

[james24]

Soy milk is not gr8 for men as like am earlier poster mentioned it may increase/create man boobs due to its make-up, not to mention how genetically modified it is.

Cows milk, in fact all milk is not great to drink. The enzymes in cows milk are 5-6 times bigger and are not meant for the human body.

I think the most important fact of all is that there is no animal-mammal in the world that comes off the mothers breast and carries on drinking milk, especially from another animal. If its calcium etc youre worried about there are vegetables that contain a hell of alot more calcium than milk.

Youll also be doing those slaved cows a favour.

[Miami Bob]

I've been reading about health/diet/exercise for over 30 years. I'm no expert but I have learned a lot. Last year I became obsessed with making my stomach totally flat and ripped like when I was a high school wrestler [ I'm 64 now] so I went from 143lbs. to 128lbs. Not that many pounds total but it's over 10% off a body and had very little fat to begin with. If I may make some recommendations. It's not about how much you eat as much as WHAT you eat and not about how much you excercise as HOW you exercise. It's not about how many calories you burn WHILE you are excercising, it's about how high you raise your metabolic rate. Slow aerobic is better than nothing but as soon as you stop you soon stop burning calories. What you need is Anaerobic [ wind sprints] that get your heart and lungs pumping big time. I do 30 second wind sprints on the stationary bike at max resistance. The results is your met rate goes WAY up and stays up for 24 hours. That's the key! Go here www.mercola.com and search his "peak eight"

program and subscribe to his free newsletter. Diet -number one thing to remember { sugar is the enemy"! Or any simple carb that digest quickly. Watch this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM lecture by a professor at U. of Cal that runs an obesity clinic for children. It will put you light years ahead in understanding how to lose weight.

About soy VS cows milk. Milk is good if it's UNpasturized whole milk like it comes out of the cow under sanitary conditions. I drank soy for 25 years but stopped now because 90% of soy sold in the USA is GMO which is a health disaster. You can get soy here in Thailand from Australia that claims to be non GMO. But there are other drawbacks to soy I have learned about in recent years in addition to the female hormone issue. There is no perfect answer to your question.

Good luck !

[bkkjames]

I gave up sugar and beer 3 months ago, started exercising 3x a week (weights), lost 7 kilos.

[sinbin]

Quote Tim Armstrong:- "I've found a soy milk that is 4.5% sugar, which seems to be the lowest around"

There is a brand called 'Lactasoy' with a sugar content of 3.79%.

[Jingthing]

At Villa, three kinds of NO SUGAR soy milk on offer.

[eslteacher]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

This is not the way to go. The opposite is true. It is definitely what you eat and not about how much you eat. Reducing calories is simply not a sustainable option. And eating less and moving more is a recipe for disaster.

[Eff1n2ret]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

This is not the way to go. The opposite is true. It is definitely what you eat and not about how much you eat. Reducing calories is simply not a sustainable option. And eating less and moving more is a recipe for disaster.

I would have thought that if one's intake of calories vastly exceeds calories burned, it's a no-brainer that to reduce intake and increase exercise is the way to go. Early this year I was diagnosed with a minor heart problem, and the doctor said to me bluntly "you're too fat". My blood-sugar was ok, but blood-pressure and cholesterol were high. I have greatly reduced my consumption of beer and eaten smaller portions, and increased exercise by daily cycling and swimming, both sufficiently strenuously to increase pulse and breathing rates for 20-minute periods. In 6 months or so my weight's come down from 95 to 85 Kilos, and my blood pressure and cholesterol readings are way down (how much of that is down to medication remains to be seen, as I'm stopping taking the medication for a while).

It's not a straight-line progression, though. The first kilo or two come off very easily, then it gets to be a bit of a struggle, and I will admit to having felt weary and lacking in energy at times, so knocking off too many carbohydrates is not a good idea. The obvious things to target for calorie loss are alcohol and sugar, nearly all of the latter that I get comes from honey and fruit.

I don't know why the OP focuses on milk as the most suspect element of his diet. Full milk from cows is generally reckoned to be detrimental for cholesterol levels, just switch to semi-skimmed or skimmed. But if I had to cycle 14km I think I'd collapse before I got there.

[eslteacher]

Well, I should rephrase that. Calories do count to a certain degree. But for the most part the type of food you eat plays an instrumental role in body weight regulation and not so much the calories consumed.

Drinking skim milk is also not the way to go. Most of the nutrition has been removed and if you were to take a look at skim milk under a microscope it would look like paint. Whereas if you take milk in its purest form ie. raw, there is an abundance of healthy bacteria that is beneficial to healthy gut flora which can provide a host of health benefits. However, we cant or at least its very difficult to get raw milk from grass fed cows in Thailand.

Cholesterol is very beneficial to our bodies. And its very important to understand it and the differences between the different types of cholesterol aka lipoproteins. Total cholesterol is not the number to look out for. LDL itself is not even that important. What's important is the type of LDL. Basically the type of LDL that causes the most damage is the small, dense LDL particles that wreak havoc in our bloodstream. However, the large, fluffy LDL particles are what we want and can actually play many beneficial roles in the body.

These small, dense LDL particles generally increase when we eat processed, sugary foods as well as a high consumption of vegetable oils that cannot be cooked at high temperatures because of oxidization. Heck, even before we cook with them, they have pretty much been damaged just by being in room temperature.

[eslteacher]

Soy milk with sugar is definitely not what you want to drink when you intend to lose weight. But soy milk is also available without sugar.

As for the comparison with milk, many will tell you that a diet without animal protein and without animal fat is a lot healthier than with this stuff.

However my experience with regard to weight is not so much about what you eat as moreover how much you eat and how much calories you burn via physical activity...

To eat less and move more, motivation is the key. Wanting to stop being lethargic and not wanting to die to soon sounds like an excellent start to me ;-)

All the best!

This is not the way to go. The opposite is true. It is definitely what you eat and not about how much you eat. Reducing calories is simply not a sustainable option. And eating less and moving more is a recipe for disaster.

I would have thought that if one's intake of calories vastly exceeds calories burned, it's a no-brainer that to reduce intake and increase exercise is the way to go. Early this year I was diagnosed with a minor heart problem, and the doctor said to me bluntly "you're too fat". My blood-sugar was ok, but blood-pressure and cholesterol were high. I have greatly reduced my consumption of beer and eaten smaller portions, and increased exercise by daily cycling and swimming, both sufficiently strenuously to increase pulse and breathing rates for 20-minute periods. In 6 months or so my weight's come down from 95 to 85 Kilos, and my blood pressure and cholesterol readings are way down (how much of that is down to medication remains to be seen, as I'm stopping taking the medication for a while).

It's not a straight-line progression, though. The first kilo or two come off very easily, then it gets to be a bit of a struggle, and I will admit to having felt weary and lacking in energy at times, so knocking off too many carbohydrates is not a good idea. The obvious things to target for calorie loss are alcohol and sugar, nearly all of the latter that I get comes from honey and fruit.

I don't know why the OP focuses on milk as the most suspect element of his diet. Full milk from cows is generally reckoned to be detrimental for cholesterol levels, just switch to semi-skimmed or skimmed. But if I had to cycle 14km I think I'd collapse before I got there.

Congrats on the weight loss by the way.

[Niranut]

I would vote "none of the above." Just my own understanding of nutrition, but animal products (dairy, meat, eggs, etc) are not recommended for long-term human consumption if you want to enjoy a longer, disease/illness free life in the long-term. I highly recommend starting by reading "The China Study" by Dr. Campbell which may very well change how you view nutrition.

Definitely steer clear of any/all cow's milk, soy in moderation (i.e. to make soups/smoothies, but not to drink by the liter). I use V-Soy sugar-free milk in moderate amounts for cooking only.

As for what and how much, I'm of the belief that if you eat a plant-based diet (with no meat, and little/no other animal products), you can eat until you are full. 100 calories of olive oil is something like a tablespoon, 100 calories of beef steak is not much at all, but 100 calories of boccoli is a LOT of broccoli. So eat vegetables, and lots of them, and you will be full, be getting plenty of fiber, essential vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals, and feel better faster. Just be careful what you cook them in, cause the sauces can add lots of unnecessary sodium and fat. There are plenty of plant-based sources of protein out there as well. Keep in mind that pretty much everyone today eats way more protein as they need, but if you start to experiment with beans and lentils, and throw in a handful of nuts a day, you will be getting more than enough protein. Not to mention that many green leafy vegetables are also very rich in protein as well when you eat *lots* of them (which is what you should do!)

I know this is not a popular view of nutrition, but I would highly encourage you to look into it before you completely disregard it. If you can get a copy of "The China Study", that's a good place to start. Dr. Campbell is not pushing a diet plan or have any sort of agenda-- he just lays out the facts as he has see them play out in his decades of research.

I'm personally a fan of Dr. Fuhrman's "Eat to Live" approach to health and wellness. He's got lots of information on his website. He's also got a member's only section there which is full of lots of helpful tips, advice, and recipes. I joined a while back for a couple months just to download all of the recipes-- cause there are literally hundres of recipes up there, and it was worth the $10 to get a bunch of recipes I know I'd use, instead of spending $10 on a cookbook or something where I'd only use a few. Anyway, that's a good resource. There is also an Eat to Live Yahoo group. The group is a great free resource if you looking for recipes or just general information on the program.

There are other programs that also follow a plant-based approach, which I would also highly recommend. The less animal protein you take in, the better-- it doesn't matter how you do it. And you will definitely find your energy levels are way up and not only will you be motivated to get moving, you'll be moving all the time

HTH

[eslteacher]

I would vote "none of the above." Just my own understanding of nutrition, but animal products (dairy, meat, eggs, etc) are not recommended for long-term human consumption if you want to enjoy a longer, disease/illness free life in the long-term. I highly recommend starting by reading "The China Study" by Dr. Campbell which may very well change how you view nutrition.

Definitely steer clear of any/all cow's milk, soy in moderation (i.e. to make soups/smoothies, but not to drink by the liter). I use V-Soy sugar-free milk in moderate amounts for cooking only.

As for what and how much, I'm of the belief that if you eat a plant-based diet (with no meat, and little/no other animal products), you can eat until you are full. 100 calories of olive oil is something like a tablespoon, 100 calories of beef steak is not much at all, but 100 calories of boccoli is a LOT of broccoli. So eat vegetables, and lots of them, and you will be full, be getting plenty of fiber, essential vitamins, minerals, and phytochemicals, and feel better faster. Just be careful what you cook them in, cause the sauces can add lots of unnecessary sodium and fat. There are plenty of plant-based sources of protein out there as well. Keep in mind that pretty much everyone today eats way more protein as they need, but if you start to experiment with beans and lentils, and throw in a handful of nuts a day, you will be getting more than enough protein. Not to mention that many green leafy vegetables are also very rich in protein as well when you eat *lots* of them (which is what you should do!)

I know this is not a popular view of nutrition, but I would highly encourage you to look into it before you completely disregard it. If you can get a copy of "The China Study", that's a good place to start. Dr. Campbell is not pushing a diet plan or have any sort of agenda-- he just lays out the facts as he has see them play out in his decades of research.

I'm personally a fan of Dr. Fuhrman's "Eat to Live" approach to health and wellness. He's got lots of information on his website. He's also got a member's only section there which is full of lots of helpful tips, advice, and recipes. I joined a while back for a couple months just to download all of the recipes-- cause there are literally hundres of recipes up there, and it was worth the $10 to get a bunch of recipes I know I'd use, instead of spending $10 on a cookbook or something where I'd only use a few. Anyway, that's a good resource. There is also an Eat to Live Yahoo group. The group is a great free resource if you looking for recipes or just general information on the program.

There are other programs that also follow a plant-based approach, which I would also highly recommend. The less animal protein you take in, the better-- it doesn't matter how you do it. And you will definitely find your energy levels are way up and not only will you be motivated to get moving, you'll be moving all the time

HTH

The China Study is not a study to be taken seriously. That study has been refuted by many knowledgable nutritionists as being full of garbage and inconsistencies.

I've said this in another post but eating meat, dairy has been a staple of many, MANY of the healthiest populations throughout human history. Meat and dairy is not the cause of our obesity epidemic. Its not the reason why we get sick.

[cameravisio]

Milk is waste from the blood of the animal

Soy is a genetically modified food

Both have no place in a healthy body

Cow's milk 2011 (commercial): pasteurized/sterilized to kill any beneficial bacteria (to make longer shelf life for the seller)

Contents: milk/chemicals/fungicides/herbicides/worms/pus etc.

Drinking milk from Japan ? add radioactive substances

Fat free foods are the last thing you want. We need fats.

Meat and dairy = ill health

Fat people - starving from lack of proper nutrition.

Foods for the human: fruits, nuts, seeds, leaves + clean water, sun, clean air, some exercise

[eslteacher]

Milk is waste from the blood of the animal

Soy is a genetically modified food

Both have no place in a healthy body

Cow's milk 2011 (commercial): pasteurized/sterilized to kill any beneficial bacteria (to make longer shelf life for the seller)

Contents: milk/chemicals/fungicides/herbicides/worms/pus etc.

Drinking milk from Japan ? add radioactive substances

Fat free foods are the last thing you want. We need fats.

Meat and dairy = ill health

Fat people - starving from lack of proper nutrition.

Foods for the human: fruits, nuts, seeds, leaves + clean water, sun, clean air, some exercise

Nonsense.

Commerical dairy products are definitely not a great option. But dairy from grass fed, free range animals are absolutely the way to go and is packed full of nutrition.

Same applies for meat. If you are eating your meat from free range, grass fed animals, you are getting optimal nutrition. The difference in nutrition between grass fed, free range organic meat compared to the garbage, corn/grain fed meat you'd find at your typical supermarket is incredibly significant.

Meat and dairy should be part of a person's diet. If it isnt, you simply arent eating an optimal diet.

[Niranut]

The China Study is not a study to be taken seriously. That study has been refuted by many knowledgable nutritionists as being full of garbage and inconsistencies.

I've said this in another post but eating meat, dairy has been a staple of many, MANY of the healthiest populations throughout human history. Meat and dairy is not the cause of our obesity epidemic. Its not the reason why we get sick.

As with most things scientific, you can find experts on both side of the issue. I personally did not find those who refuted Dr. Campbell's work to be as credible. And so I pursued a path of following and oil-free vegan way of life that incorporates whole foods whenever possible.

Of course, everyone needs to decide for themselves. So would just recommend they look into Dr. Campbells work, the work of people who disagree with him, and anything else they find helpful.

Another thing I would highly encourage is to get a complete physical with a blood workup and all of that to establish your baseline. People often go by their weight and inches and all of that, but there are plenty of people who are a healthy weight and size with underlying health risk factors. If you go with a diet that includes animal products, you may see some positive results after a few months and another checkup after 3-6 months may show some improvement.

Of course, my own challenge would be to then consider moving toward an animal-free diet. You don't have to go into it with the intention of doing it forever. Just commit to it for 4-6 weeks and see how you look/feel. If you can swing it, give the oil-free vegan diet a try to 3 months, and then 4 months, then 6 months. I guarantee that you will see a marked improvement in your overall health and well-being from the inside out. And if you get a checkup after 3-6 months on an oil-free vegan diet, I guarantee your numbers (outside measurements as well as bloodwork results) will show a marked improvement. This improvement will be obvious regardless of whether you started out "healthy" or not. And results will more than prove that you are receiving optimal nutrition.

A few other resources that may be helpful:

Dr. Esselstyn's work-- he uses a 100% plant-based diet program to treat heart disease (instead of all of the different heart surgeries that are becoming more and more common); and has a 100% success rate in treating patients who qualify and follow the plan.

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine-- another great resource for information; they also have a great database of recipes

Dr. McDougall-- another well known doctor who sees remarkable success in his patients using a plant-based diet approach to attaining optimal health and wellness

Fat Free Vegan-- even if you don't make a complete switch, there are lots of tasty, healthy recipes here

eslteacher, I've just seen the comment that people who do not eat meat/animal products are not receiving optimal nutrition. What is it in animal products that cannot be gotten from eating a plant-based diet? Other than vitamin B12 (which is easily supplemented), I'm not aware of anything. So just curious. Any other resources you have to support your claims would also be appreciated. Thanks!

[eslteacher]

The China Study is not a study to be taken seriously. That study has been refuted by many knowledgable nutritionists as being full of garbage and inconsistencies.

I've said this in another post but eating meat, dairy has been a staple of many, MANY of the healthiest populations throughout human history. Meat and dairy is not the cause of our obesity epidemic. Its not the reason why we get sick.

As with most things scientific, you can find experts on both side of the issue. I personally did not find those who refuted Dr. Campbell's work to be as credible. And so I pursued a path of following and oil-free vegan way of life that incorporates whole foods whenever possible.

Of course, everyone needs to decide for themselves. So would just recommend they look into Dr. Campbells work, the work of people who disagree with him, and anything else they find helpful.

Another thing I would highly encourage is to get a complete physical with a blood workup and all of that to establish your baseline. People often go by their weight and inches and all of that, but there are plenty of people who are a healthy weight and size with underlying health risk factors. If you go with a diet that includes animal products, you may see some positive results after a few months and another checkup after 3-6 months may show some improvement.

Of course, my own challenge would be to then consider moving toward an animal-free diet. You don't have to go into it with the intention of doing it forever. Just commit to it for 4-6 weeks and see how you look/feel. If you can swing it, give the oil-free vegan diet a try to 3 months, and then 4 months, then 6 months. I guarantee that you will see a marked improvement in your overall health and well-being from the inside out. And if you get a checkup after 3-6 months on an oil-free vegan diet, I guarantee your numbers (outside measurements as well as bloodwork results) will show a marked improvement. This improvement will be obvious regardless of whether you started out "healthy" or not. And results will more than prove that you are receiving optimal nutrition.

A few other resources that may be helpful:

Dr. Esselstyn's work-- he uses a 100% plant-based diet program to treat heart disease (instead of all of the different heart surgeries that are becoming more and more common); and has a 100% success rate in treating patients who qualify and follow the plan.

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine-- another great resource for information; they also have a great database of recipes

Dr. McDougall-- another well known doctor who sees remarkable success in his patients using a plant-based diet approach to attaining optimal health and wellness

Fat Free Vegan-- even if you don't make a complete switch, there are lots of tasty, healthy recipes here

eslteacher, I've just seen the comment that people who do not eat meat/animal products are not receiving optimal nutrition. What is it in animal products that cannot be gotten from eating a plant-based diet? Other than vitamin B12 (which is easily supplemented), I'm not aware of anything. So just curious. Any other resources you have to support your claims would also be appreciated. Thanks!

Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.

Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;

- Creatine - essential for ATP.

- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.

- Carnitine

- Carnosine

- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.

- Iron

- Zinc

- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.

It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.

[Niranut]

Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.

Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;

- Creatine - essential for ATP.

- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.

- Carnitine

- Carnosine

- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.

- Iron

- Zinc

- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.

It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one I only supplement B12 because it is so hard to come by naturally, but as far as I know I'm not missing anything else.

But I am going to look into the nutrients you mentioned. Some of them I know off the top of my head, others I will look into.

So here's what I have for the essential fatty acids. Any thoughts?

For iron, I'm pretty sure I can explain that fully enough on my own as we've had lots of experience with that in my family here. Before I get into the details, suffice it to say that you can get more than enough iron from green leafy vegetables! While the amount of iron in plants is not as high as that of meat product, plant-based iron is much more absorbable and used more fully by the body. So if you eat a bowl full of greens your body will absorb more iron than if you eat an animal food with more iron that is much less absorbable. Does that sound reasonable?

Now, for my personal experience. My husband is from Isaan where something like 90% of the population is iron deficient-- ranging from just mildly deficient to anemic to full blow thalassemia. My oldest daughter was about a year old when her doctor noticed she was quite anemic. Since she was so young, the dr. initially wanted to put her on high iron supplementation to see if that would help her get to where she needed to be. Her numbers were so low, that the dr. suspected thalassimia and recommended a very high iron dose. We compromised and the dr. agreed to let me try and get more iron into her naturally for a month and see how things looked. Since she was still breastfeeding, I increased my own green leafy veggie intake to as much as I could possibly eat in hopes of passing as much on to her as I could. I also started adding greens to everything she ate. And I kid you not, in that one month trial not only did her levels go up-- they went all the way up to normal without a single supplement. Then along came my second daughter who also was showing signs of the same problem, although much milder. Did the same regimen with her-- I upped my own intake to pass along, while also giving her greens with everything. Same result-- iron levels were perfectly fine at the next checkup. And thankfully, they did not need the extra high plant-based iron forever, cause I know I could not eat that many greens for years and years. But for a year or so, it was very worth it to get my girls stabalized and off to a healthy start. They both eat plenty of greens now on their own and haven't had an issue since.

I will get back to you on the other nutrients as I have a chance, as I always learn quite a bit from these types of discussions. Also hoping the OP doesn't mind

Edited September 26, 2011 by Niranut

[cameravisio]

IF you could get true free range grass fed meat/dairy that is one thing, BUT they are still not foods for humans. Medical proved this 100 years ago. Our body cannot digest meats nor dairy and they require ACID to break down and our body is ALKALINE, so body takes calcium from bones to buffer acidity of wrong foods.

Fruits/nuts/seeds/leaves are our natural foods that keep our body alkaline.

All your needed nutrients are in these foods + sun exposure. Supplement with herbs is good too.

You can eat some meats if you want but we are not designed to digest them.

Any why would you want your nutrients from a cow. What does the cow eat for his nutrients to make all that beef ? GRASS

Cow's milk is not compatible with the human body. It doubles the baby cows' weight every 2 weeks. Goat's milk is closer to human milk.

If you want to go back in history to justify meat then go back 10,000+ years. There were no butchers, cookers, burgers. It is not natural food for us.

THe body needs FATS & SUGARS

Olive oil, nuts (fats for the brain) etc.

Sweet fruits (the 220 natural sugars for the humans) Never the commercial white refined sugars which are poison/over stimulants to the body.

Minerals come from the trees

Want a diet with NO fats & NO sugars (natural)....watch your health go down the drain.

Calories is a heat measurement and has no meaning with regard to the body's requirements.

[cameravisio]

Edited September 26, 2011 by cameravisio

[eslteacher]

Hey, now don't me wrong. I am not an advocate of a vegan/vegetarian diet but thats not to say it can't be an effective diet if done properly. But in my opinion, incorporating meat into one's diet is a healthier option. And if you look at most of the healthiest populations throughout the world and in our history, the majority of them consumed meat/dairy and often times made up the majority of their calories.

Okay, so nutrients that cannot be found in plants or in only trace amounts;

- Creatine - essential for ATP.

- Taurine - One of the essential amino acids that play many pivotal roles in the body. Cannot be found in plant foods.

- Carnitine

- Carnosine

- B complex vitamins as you already mentioned.

- Iron

- Zinc

- Omega 3 fatty acids - an incredibly important fat that once again plays an instrumental role in human health. Best sources of O3 are in fatty fish. Omega 3 can be found in plant sources but in the ALA form which the body has to convert into DHA and EPA. And here, the conversion rate is extremely low. Another reason why taking flax seed oil may not be as beneficial as one would think. Consuming fatty fish containing high amounts of O3, it is already in its DHA and EPA form.

It is always better to get these nutrients from real food sources as opposed to supplementation.

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one I only supplement B12 because it is so hard to come by naturally, but as far as I know I'm not missing anything else.

But I am going to look into the nutrients you mentioned. Some of them I know off the top of my head, others I will look into.

So here's what I have for the essential fatty acids. Any thoughts?

For iron, I'm pretty sure I can explain that fully enough on my own as we've had lots of experience with that in my family here. Before I get into the details, suffice it to say that you can get more than enough iron from green leafy vegetables! While the amount of iron in plants is not as high as that of meat product, plant-based iron is much more absorbable and used more fully by the body. So if you eat a bowl full of greens your body will absorb more iron than if you eat an animal food with more iron that is much less absorbable. Does that sound reasonable?

Now, for my personal experience. My husband is from Isaan where something like 90% of the population is iron deficient-- ranging from just mildly deficient to anemic to full blow thalassemia. My oldest daughter was about a year old when her doctor noticed she was quite anemic. Since she was so young, the dr. initially wanted to put her on high iron supplementation to see if that would help her get to where she needed to be. Her numbers were so low, that the dr. suspected thalassimia and recommended a very high iron dose. We compromised and the dr. agreed to let me try and get more iron into her naturally for a month and see how things looked. Since she was still breastfeeding, I increased my own green leafy veggie intake to as much as I could possibly eat in hopes of passing as much on to her as I could. I also started adding greens to everything she ate. And I kid you not, in that one month trial not only did her levels go up-- they went all the way up to normal without a single supplement. Then along came my second daughter who also was showing signs of the same problem, although much milder. Did the same regimen with her-- I upped my own intake to pass along, while also giving her greens with everything. Same result-- iron levels were perfectly fine at the next checkup. And thankfully, they did not need the extra high plant-based iron forever, cause I know I could not eat that many greens for years and years. But for a year or so, it was very worth it to get my girls stabalized and off to a healthy start. They both eat plenty of greens now on their own and haven't had an issue since.

I will get back to you on the other nutrients as I have a chance, as I always learn quite a bit from these types of discussions. Also hoping the OP doesn't mind

That's impressive. Good job.

In terms of it being more absorbable, I really wouldnt know. I'll take a look at it.

[Niranut]

That's impressive. Good job.

In terms of it being more absorbable, I really wouldnt know. I'll take a look at it.

Correction: after relating the iron story to my husband for the umpteenth time, he reminded me that it took a few months for my oldest (who was borderline thalassimia) to get her numbers up where they should be. It was after one month that we went back for a checkup, and there was enough of an improvement that the dr. agreed the natural approach was working fine to continue. We went back again a couple months later and she was fine. It was the younger daughter who we checked early and noticed a mild deficiency-- she took just a month to get where she needed to be.

Now, for today's nutrient-- creatine. I just had a minute to look into this and this seems to sum up the overall consensus of what I was able to find:

"The endogenic synthesis of creatine in the human liver is adequate for normal functioning of the human body. In other words, vegetarians do not suffer from creatine deficiency even though vegetables do not contain creatine. However, scientific studies show us that an addition of creatine intake to a vegetarian diet does indeed enhance physical performance."

(taken from here)

From what I can gather, the average person who is physically active is perfectly fine. I got the impression that professional atheletes and bobybuilders are big into creatine supplementation. I'm not about enhancing my physical performance beyond what I am designed to do, so I'm ok with that.

cameravision also makes an *excellent* point about the acid vs. alkeline issue, which is a big deal (and problem for long term meat eaters).