Chiang Mai Court Sentenced Akha Hill Tribe Man To Life For Murder Of British Composer David Crisp

[endure]

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel.

No you'll get slammed for being an opinionated windbag who thinks that having acquaintances who are homosexual makes you an expert on the homosexual condition. You're just someone with an opinion.

May I in turn slam you on one thing!!!! I'm not sure that calling it a " homosexual condition" will be appreciated by the gay community. You make it sound like something they need to go to see the Doctor about ie: That there is something wrong with them that needs correcting.

I used the word 'condition' to describe a state of being, not a disease. Some words do have more than one meaning.

Don't label someone in this way for his opinions and then insult a large section of the world's population by suggesting there's something wrong with them. Another thing!!! Where does he say he has acquaintances that are homosexual??? Whether he does or not is irrelevant, and he is not claiming to be an expert in the field - only posting his opinion on matters which is what these forums are for.

If you read some of GK's past posts you'll find that he does indeed have gay friends and often makes pronouncements on the gay condition.

BTW I'm gay.

[khundon]

Khundon, I learned what I know about the academic position of professional psychologists about the varied sexual orientation of male prostitutes who service males in a college course (and textbook). I don't have the textbook online text to link to you but my memory is clear. I also recall a report of a study of young male prostitutes which did show that some (by no means all) males who start out as heterosexual through many acts of gay sex where they receive the positive reinforcement of both money and orgasms do change their orientation to gay, but the studies were clear that there was a group of heterosexually identified subjects that were studied.

Also keep in mind, there is a supply and demand market situation here. In most cultures, there are generally many more male clients for male prostitutes than female ones, and again, in many cultures the pay is better for same sex service.

Also, just because you and many hetero men can't imagine performing at all with their own sex (I can relate), people are very varied, and some men have no problem performing with goats (of any sex) so horses for courses, as it were. That doesn't make them goat-sexual either.

I am not going to be your googlebot, but here's a link. Like I said, I know what I know, you believe what you believe, we aren't going to change each others minds about this.

http://www.reference...male+prostitute

Male prostitution

A gigolo , hustler or male prostitute is a male who engages in the sale of their sexual services by prostitution. The gender of a male prostitute's sexual partner or the sexual act that he and the client participates in may not indicate a prostitute's sexual orientation; a male prostitute may be of any sexual orientation regardless of his client's gender. Compared to female sex workers, male sex workers have been far less studied by researchers, and while studies suggest that there are differences between the ways these two groups look at their work, more research is needed.

Jingthing

Hardly a firm endorsement of what you believe. Two word stand out in that quote and they are both MAY. Even the last line in your quote says "more research is needed". That to me implies that the jury is still out on many issues involving the sexuality of male prostitutes.

"Positive reinforcement" sounds a bit too much like Pavlov's dog. But then it was a dog and not a human being , with power of thought a reasoning. The men who committed the crime did have the power of reasoning and knew full well what their actions would lead to.

As to your assertion that I, along with most of the male hetero population, cannot imagine engaging in a homosexual act, well you are wrong. It is precisely because I can imagine it, that I don't indulge in such things. Does that make me psychologically flawed? Of course not. But neither does it mean those who do indulge are flawed either. Just different to me.

Academics are only human and can be wrong, especially in the field of Psychology. It was an acadamec who proclaimed the World to be flat. Haven't yet read about anyone falling off the edge, even after all these years.

I was bought up to question everything and if a psychologists said good morning to me, I would look up and check for myself. Such is the faith I have in them.

I have no wish to change your views on the subject, the World would be a funny old place if we all believed the same and there would be no need for most threads on a forum like TV.

By the way, that link you gave has no attributable source, (unless I missed it) just the exact same ramblings that can even be found on Wiki! and we know how honest that site is don't we.

We seem to be getting off topic, so I will leave you to what you think you know and I to what I believe to be correct.

Cheers.

[geriatrickid]

ENDURE seems to be more on track than GERIATRICKID. Helping someone down and out doesn't make one a pervert or a criminal. In fact, such behavior as supposed by Geriatric isn't even illegal here, but murder is... Even with the presumption of some evil doing, there is no balance to this story.

I was unaware that taking drug addicted destitute males for the purposes of sexual activity was considered helping someone down and out. In the world I come from, such assistance of provided by way of a meal or a willingness to listen. There are multiple foreign organizations in Thailand that provide education, health services and skills training. That is what helping the down and out is.

Your position is an attempt to excuse some people who exploit the poor and disadvantaged. I also wish to remind you that the characteristics of the sex trade involving hill tribes people is quite different than that which one sees in Pattaya or on Phuket.

[Jingthing]

GK, you are not playing fair. I made it clear I am not playing googlebot. I provided one objective sounding link. I already stated what I had learned in an academic environment on the topic. Did you get your knowledge about the sexual orientation of male prostitutes from an authoritative source or simply your random feelings?

[warfie]

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel.

No you'll get slammed for being an opinionated windbag who thinks that having acquaintances who are homosexual makes you an expert on the homosexual condition. You're just someone with an opinion.

You are the only one highlighting the deceased's homosexuality. My view would be the same if a young woman had been responsible for the death. There are just as many men that do the same thing with impoverished vulnerable hill tribe girls.

I suggest you volunteer with one of the public health groups that provides care for some of these people. When the male prostitutes go home to their girlfriends and beat the crap out of them because of their internalized anger or turn to drugs to kill the emotional anguish, maybe you'll understand my point. The exploitaion of the vulnerable has a cost and Mr. Crisp and the wasted lives of 3 young men demonstrates that. It is a death that need not have happened had Mr. Crisp not taken these impoverished men to his home where they were exposed to material wealth they could never obtain under their circumstances. You can call me a windbag all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the damage that some foreigners wreak.

You have a hard time with reality don't you?

The fact is that this is the only way they know how to live. You may create fantasy lives but that is all they are is fantasy.

the likely hood of them happening in our lives are non existent.

The facts are these three young men were doing the only thing they knew how to do in order to eat. Eating is a very important part of life.

You also presume that they found that way of life to be unenjoyable.

NEWS FLASH many straight people have had a hard time of life and do not find there way of life enjoyable. But for some reason they Don't murder people.

And many straight people would murder you in the street for the contents of your pockets...

[geriatrickid]

[

]

[b]How can you possibly know such details about these young men? How do you know that the victim was a predator? Unless you knew those involved personally, the victim could have just as easily been a kind benefactor. Also, are you honestly suggesting that if there were no foreigners in Thailand, there would be no sex industry? Your comments appear to be both naive and foolish.[/b]

Thank you for providing an opportunity to address this aspect of the story. I have been in the area and I have had interaction with professionals that have provided services to the population. I am familiar with the social conditions of the Hill tribes and have had the opportunity to sit in on interviews with subjects similar to the accused. , I have made several inquiries about this case and have spoken with some people familiar with details of the case. You can either believe me or not believe me on that. This case was quite important for several orgainzations as it came shortly before the Bobby Morse fiasco. The trickle down effect in the following months were memos and revised guidelines for some foreign workers. It is referred to as the "do not touch the merchandise" rule. If you know any public health of social assistance people in the area, ask them what changed after the Crisp and Morse affairs.

I am accused of speculation. Ok. Unfortuantely, many of the comments made by those looking to rip me are based upon a number of sanitized newspaper articles and the word of mouth stories people have offered about the deceased. I'm sure the deceased was a wonderful man in their presence, but these people didn't know how he behaved once he was alone and out of their line of view do they?. It serves no purpose to discuss the man's conduct at the bars. However, how many people were actually aware of his relationship with the drug addicted prostitute? Why do you think this aspect of his life was kept "discreet"? It's an unpleasant subject that some in the expat community don't want to deal with.

There were plea changes and two of the individuals are now in jail. The first interrogations took place under circumstances that would be unacceptable even to those calling for their execution. Yes one of the accused is on the run, while the other 2 are in prison. As soon as the third one is caught he will be sent to jail with the trial a mere formality.

I am amazed by several of the self professed experts on Thailand. If they knew Thaialnd, they would understand the court process for a poor person. The trial did not allow for full disclosure of all events related to the case. That's not how Thai trials work. It is easier to attribute a violent reaction to dishes than to enter a discussion of activities involving multiple sex partners. Prostitution and sex are taboo subjects. The living conditions and exploitation of the Hill Tribes people are taboo subjects. For group that claims they know Thais and the concept of saving face, surely they can understand why a young male is going to be unable to make a statement in court detailing sordid sexual activities and why the specifics of the relationship could not be discussed openly. Some readers have figured out what had occurred on previous occassions. I do not believe the 3 young men were at the house for a sing along or a remedial reading lesson

Yes, the deceased could have been a benefactor. However, most benefactors do not usually have sex with their subjects.

[endure]

I am accused of speculation. Ok. Unfortuantely, many of the comments made by those looking to rip me are based upon a number of sanitized newspaper articles and the word of mouth stories people have offered about the deceased. I'm sure the deceased was a wonderful man in their presence, but these people didn't know how he behaved once he was alone and out of their line of view do they?.

Do you? Or is this just more speculation?

[geriatrickid]

A an example of being intelligent is the demonstrated ability to look at some thing from different view points.

You can't do that.

Some folk may then draw their own conclusions from that and simply move on. Dismissing you outright and I can't blame them for that. You hardly present an informed opinion.

However, I'll show you how wrong you can be. Initially, you ask why he [ the perpetrator ] had no difficulty killing. The obvious answer is that he is a psychopath or szchiophrenic. Both of whom have no difficulty killing. That's why we don't kill, think about it or plan it. It's called being rational, logical, normal. But you choose to ignore the fact. Even when the reason being given is over unclean dishes; classic minor incident which sparks a killing frenzy. Have you heard the phrase 'I don't like Mondays'? Does it mean anything?

When you are mentally ill, killing is because of dirty dishes, loud TV or looked at me the wrong way.

Your description of a terrible life, lived by those in the sex industry, fails to explain or recognise the fact that out of the hundreds of thousands of sex workers the other 99.9% do not committ murder. They do not act psychoticly. They do not fall foul of the law other than like the rest of us, by way of misdeamor. They are to all intents and purposes normal. Living normal lives. Worrying about having enough petrol in the tank to get home. Your excuse that 'moma didn't love me enough' and 'we couldn't afford a Toyota Camry' doesn't explain why most of shrugged it off and went to work. Impoverished, lacking a stable home or coming from a loving, nurturing environment, the 99 % shrug it off and live normally.

We did not go out and murder the shop keeper who gave us the wrong change.

You really do sound homophobic and the personal adult relationship in the privacy of his home with consenting adults has no bearing upon the case. Awe Ye Ping is unbalanced and an accident waiting to happen. It could have been anywhere, with anyone, especially if szchophrenic, at anytime. The dishes tripped him. Not the reaction of a normal mentally healthy person, now is it? Equally, a mentally ill Awe Ye Ping, working in a bank, driving his car, renting his two story apartment, seeing his girlfriend, could have killed a customer who complained about a dirty 100 baht note. It's not about the 'background' it's about the fore ground; the here and now. He's mentally ill.

I don't agree that anyone of adult age can be exploited for entering into a contractual agreement by mutual consent on terms that they agree. Sex for sale being but one example.

I wouldn't agree with your character assassination of the deceased or you character vindication of the killers. As for evil incarnate perhaps you should examine the workings of your own mind is seeing things the way you do. It's certainly not an intelligent interpretation on the facts; it is biased, biggoted and prejudiced. The homosexuality clearly is something you find offensive and therefore you are homophobic. In such circumstances you should keep your opinions to yourself and not publish them as you hold an unacceptable view. Either that or learn to be more tolerant and less rant.

Some one called you a 'windbag'.

You are much worse than that. You are bigotted, ignorant and unthinking. That means your opinions are worthless. An angry tirade. As welcome as an exploding fart.

Finally, where someone has died quite horrifically as in this case, if you can't say something that is at least compassinate then do you really think anyone wants to hear from you? I don't and I'm being quite considerate to you.

Shame on you. You should apologise.

You have written an ineffective personal attack on me. Those that dislike me, will agree with you, but what have you really stated? Nothing. You offer a diagnosis of the accused's mental health. The fact that you are neither qualified to offer such an opinion nor have even examined the subject doesn't matter with you does it? Then you offer a 99.9% statistic that you pulled out of the air. You then make a statement Mr. Crisp seems to have provided a welcoming atmosphere, encouraged his guests to stay, make use of the facilties and pay them for their time. You may not like it, but such is the way of the world.

That's your opinion and you take it from the few newspaper articles that have been written on the event. You also did this with the case of the Swede that died in the Patong condo. However, when the newspaper retracted its story and stated it had erred, not a word from you. Your position disintegrated because you had based all of your "facts" on an inaccurate newspaper artcicle. I was vindicated in that case and you never came back to retract your statements did you? Your entry is full of personal insult, but what exactly are you saying? That the death of Mr. Crisp was a one off and that it arose just like that? The accused would never have worked in a bank because most Hill Tribes people cannot attend university, nor can they obtain legal jobs. Why present an impossible hypothetical scenario? You do not want to recognize that many murderers are formed over time. The health literature demonstrates that society often creates its murderers by way of social conditions and the victims of some murderers have often engaged in activities that allows them to more likely suffer a violent death.

Again, I am not excusing the murder, nor am I denigrating the deceased. However, there were mitigating circumstances in this case and Mr. Crisp was not an angel motivated solely by altruistic concern. It is much more convenient for foreigners to chalk this up to violent evil "Thais" than to take a look in the mirror and their surroundings and to accept that the case is a lot more complex than that. The dirty dishes story let's everyone avoid taboo subjects.

[warfie]

I wonder what the sentence would have been if it was a native Thai and not a Hill -Tribe person?

[Ulysses G.]

Freedom of choice, like opportunity, is something they teach in Berkeley and other havens of middle class white performative culture, not in the farms of northern Thailand. Ning has no choice.

There are millions of poor people in Thailand doing honest work that refute any such claim.

I'm sure there are many poor people laboring all over Thailand. But I think your implication that those who labor in prostitution are dishonest is harsh and unthinking.

That was not my intention. I am saying that there are millions of poor people who are working regular jobs and surviving well, so claiming that most sex-workers "have no choice" is bogus. Doing it to "make more money" is a choice that some people make and that is up to them.

Only a small percentage of prostitutes are forced into the job, but they indeed have had no choice in the matter - most others do.

However that does not justify murdering a client that they went with willingly, as adults, because they were asked to clean their dishes.

[bonobo]

While drifting in response to other on-topic posts, the many posts on sexual orientation of male sex workers, prisoners, and the like are taking this thread a little too far off-topic. I think the points have been made, and they were valid with regards to the overall posts, but let's try to nudge this back a little and not let the gay/straight/bi explanations take over the thread.

Thanks.

[venturalaw]

A an example of being intelligent is the demonstrated ability to look at some thing from different view points.

You can't do that.

Some folk may then draw their own conclusions from that and simply move on. Dismissing you outright and I can't blame them for that. You hardly present an informed opinion.

However, I'll show you how wrong you can be. Initially, you ask why he [ the perpetrator ] had no difficulty killing. The obvious answer is that he is a psychopath or szchiophrenic. Both of whom have no difficulty killing. That's why we don't kill, think about it or plan it. It's called being rational, logical, normal. But you choose to ignore the fact. Even when the reason being given is over unclean dishes; classic minor incident which sparks a killing frenzy. Have you heard the phrase 'I don't like Mondays'? Does it mean anything?

When you are mentally ill, killing is because of dirty dishes, loud TV or looked at me the wrong way.

Your description of a terrible life, lived by those in the sex industry, fails to explain or recognise the fact that out of the hundreds of thousands of sex workers the other 99.9% do not committ murder. They do not act psychoticly. They do not fall foul of the law other than like the rest of us, by way of misdeamor. They are to all intents and purposes normal. Living normal lives. Worrying about having enough petrol in the tank to get home. Your excuse that 'moma didn't love me enough' and 'we couldn't afford a Toyota Camry' doesn't explain why most of shrugged it off and went to work. Impoverished, lacking a stable home or coming from a loving, nurturing environment, the 99 % shrug it off and live normally.

We did not go out and murder the shop keeper who gave us the wrong change.

You really do sound homophobic and the personal adult relationship in the privacy of his home with consenting adults has no bearing upon the case. Awe Ye Ping is unbalanced and an accident waiting to happen. It could have been anywhere, with anyone, especially if szchophrenic, at anytime. The dishes tripped him. Not the reaction of a normal mentally healthy person, now is it? Equally, a mentally ill Awe Ye Ping, working in a bank, driving his car, renting his two story apartment, seeing his girlfriend, could have killed a customer who complained about a dirty 100 baht note. It's not about the 'background' it's about the fore ground; the here and now. He's mentally ill.

I don't agree that anyone of adult age can be exploited for entering into a contractual agreement by mutual consent on terms that they agree. Sex for sale being but one example.

I wouldn't agree with your character assassination of the deceased or you character vindication of the killers. As for evil incarnate perhaps you should examine the workings of your own mind is seeing things the way you do. It's certainly not an intelligent interpretation on the facts; it is biased, biggoted and prejudiced. The homosexuality clearly is something you find offensive and therefore you are homophobic. In such circumstances you should keep your opinions to yourself and not publish them as you hold an unacceptable view. Either that or learn to be more tolerant and less rant.

Some one called you a 'windbag'.

You are much worse than that. You are bigotted, ignorant and unthinking. That means your opinions are worthless. An angry tirade. As welcome as an exploding fart.

Finally, where someone has died quite horrifically as in this case, if you can't say something that is at least compassinate then do you really think anyone wants to hear from you? I don't and I'm being quite considerate to you.

Shame on you. You should apologise.

You have written an ineffective personal attack on me. Those that dislike me, will agree with you, but what have you really stated? Nothing. You offer a diagnosis of the accused's mental health. The fact that you are neither qualified to offer such an opinion nor have even examined the subject doesn't matter with you does it? Then you offer a 99.9% statistic that you pulled out of the air. You then make a statement Mr. Crisp seems to have provided a welcoming atmosphere, encouraged his guests to stay, make use of the facilties and pay them for their time. You may not like it, but such is the way of the world.

That's your opinion and you take it from the few newspaper articles that have been written on the event. You also did this with the case of the Swede that died in the Patong condo. However, when the newspaper retracted its story and stated it had erred, not a word from you. Your position disintegrated because you had based all of your "facts" on an inaccurate newspaper artcicle. I was vindicated in that case and you never came back to retract your statements did you? Your entry is full of personal insult, but what exactly are you saying? That the death of Mr. Crisp was a one off and that it arose just like that? The accused would never have worked in a bank because most Hill Tribes people cannot attend university, nor can they obtain legal jobs. Why present an impossible hypothetical scenario? You do not want to recognize that many murderers are formed over time. The health literature demonstrates that society often creates its murderers by way of social conditions and the victims of some murderers have often engaged in activities that allows them to more likely suffer a violent death.

Again, I am not excusing the murder, nor am I denigrating the deceased. However, there were mitigating circumstances in this case and Mr. Crisp was not an angel motivated solely by altruistic concern. It is much more convenient for foreigners to chalk this up to violent evil "Thais" than to take a look in the mirror and their surroundings and to accept that the case is a lot more complex than that. The dirty dishes story let's everyone avoid taboo subjects.

You may not be "excusing the murder", but you appear to be sharing the blame, which is an 'excuse'. According to what has been published, this was not a case of captive perpetrators who murdered so that they could escape brutality. Those cases exist (as in trafficked sex workers), and those are truly victims. It is an insult to those true victims to paint the perpetrators in this case, who went out drinking in celebration with the money stolen from Mr. Crisp, with the same brush. Your sensitivity for Hill Tribe people is valid. Your sensitivity for murderers BECAUSE they are Hill Tribe people is obnoxious and an insult to those Hill Tribe people who would never lash out at someone who provided them a job and shelter from which they were free to leave if they so desired.

[Paagai]

There were plea changes and two of the individuals are now in jail. The first interrogations took place under circumstances that would be unacceptable even to those calling for their execution. Yes one of the accused is on the run, while the other 2 are in prison. As soon as the third one is caught he will be sent to jail with the trial a mere formality.

You really know nothing at all about this do you? You seem to be altering the facts to try and suit your arguments.

First you said all three were in Jail, now you say it's only two, contradicting your own previous posts and glossing over the fact that one of the two in Jail (who I heard has now been released BTW) was not there on charges relating to the murder of David Crisp.

As to the last sentence above, just explain why you think the third guy hasn't been caught? Really! Maybe, because he doesn't fit the stereotype of "destitute hill tribe victim" you are trying to pin on him at all?

You are right about one thing though, there was a predator involved in this who it seems was the catalyst for the whole situation. That person most definitely was not David Crisp.

[Paagai]

I am accused of speculation. Ok. Unfortuantely, many of the comments made by those looking to rip me are based upon a number of sanitized newspaper articles and the word of mouth stories people have offered about the deceased. I'm sure the deceased was a wonderful man in their presence, but these people didn't know how he behaved once he was alone and out of their line of view do they?.

Do you? Or is this just more speculation?

:clap2: :clap2:

[philhal2]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

As usual there will be the demands for " JUSTICE " .! The reasons are many , the crime is terrible , the penalties are terrible . This " TEACHER " should never have been allowed to remain or to " TEACH "in a country with so many issues regarding sex and sexual predators from other countries . Perhaps in his own country his actions and his way of life are accepted ? That is up to them . In another country it is different . The culture is different , the laws are different , the reults are different . It is up to them . They all practised and participated in their particular way of life , it seems to be fraught with danger and terrible consequences in many parts of the world to try to mix cultural acceptances of many things . He or she who chooses to cross busy highways with their eyes closed or does not take a great deal of care in regards to their own personal safety by thinking about what the results of their actions might be " Whatever the actions " will often be the victim of an equally irresponsible or careless action .

Perhaps we should all think a little more carefully about what we do ? where we go ? how we act ? how we treat others ? and what can happen when things go wrong ? If you are a problem child , there will be a bigger problem than you . If you are a deviate , there will be a worse one than you . If you are a bully there will be a bigger bully than you , What is the result of your actions is not always within your control . Accept the responsibility and the result of your actions . What you sow , you shall also reap if the crows dont take it first .

[Orac]

As usual there will be the demands for " JUSTICE " .! The reasons are many , the crime is terrible , the penalties are terrible . This " TEACHER " should never have been allowed to remain or to " TEACH "in a country with so many issues regarding sex and sexual predators from other countries . Perhaps in his own country his actions and his way of life are accepted ? That is up to them . In another country it is different . The culture is different , the laws are different , the reults are different . It is up to them . They all practised and participated in their particular way of life , it seems to be fraught with danger and terrible consequences in many parts of the world to try to mix cultural acceptances of many things . He or she who chooses to cross busy highways with their eyes closed or does not take a great deal of care in regards to their own personal safety by thinking about what the results of their actions might be " Whatever the actions " will often be the victim of an equally irresponsible or careless action .

Perhaps we should all think a little more carefully about what we do ? where we go ? how we act ? how we treat others ? and what can happen when things go wrong ? If you are a problem child , there will be a bigger problem than you . If you are a deviate , there will be a worse one than you . If you are a bully there will be a bigger bully than you , What is the result of your actions is not always within your control . Accept the responsibility and the result of your actions . What you sow , you shall also reap if the crows dont take it first .

I beleive Scotland has moved out of the dark ages and being gay there now is quite acceptable - even for a teacher. Are you a member of the Taliban by any chance???

[geriatrickid]

That was not my intention. I am saying that there are millions of poor people who are working regular jobs and surviving well, so claiming that most sex-workers "have no choice" is bogus. Doing it to "make more money" is a choice that some people make and that is up to them.

Only a small percentage of prostitutes are forced into the job, but they indeed have had no choice in the matter - most others do.

However that does not justify murdering a client that they went with willingly, as adults, because they were asked to clean their dishes.

Yes, you are correct, there are millions of poor people that work regular jobs. However, the situation with Hill Tribes people is that they are usually blocked from working regular jobs.

The commonly accepted estimate of statelessness for the Hills Tribe population in Thailand ranges from 40 to 60%. Without citizenship, the people are shut out of the workforce. Note too that unless the situation has changed, the identity cards often restrict the card holders to their villages. My source is the Arthur P. Sloan Foundation which funds several public health projects. Freedom House reported that close to half of Thailand's hill-tribe peoples lack citizenship. The Thai government does not allow hill-tribe populations to establish Thai citizenship by birth, refuses to help hill-tribe children learn their mother tongue, and has evicted many hill-tribes from their land (that they occupy).

How do you expect people to get a legitimate job if they are not allowed to legally work, and in those cases when they are allowed to work are discouraged from leaving the area to find legitimate jobs?

The unemployment rate is for Hill Tribe people that have id cards is estimated to be between 30 and 50%. Can you cite one reliable Thai government issued report on Hill Tribe employment conditions? I think you would be hard pressed to find one since the government would prefer to avoid discussing the subject.

In the December 2004 study published by Drs. Natchaporn Pichainarong and Wisit Chaveepojnkamjorn of the Department of Epidemiology, Faculty of Public Health, Mahidol University, entitled MALARIA INFECTION AND LIFE-STYLE FACTORS AMONG HILLTRIBES ALONG THE THAI-MYANMAR BORDER AREA, NORTHERN THAILAND employment conditions of Thai Hill Tribes people were reviewed because of their direct link to public health. (The data provides an indication of work opportunities and I don't think the situation has changed since the study date.)

Occupation: Agriculture 42.5%, Wood cutting and gathering forest products 2.2%, Merchant and merchant employees 6.5% Unemployment 33.9%, Others 10.1

When there is almost 34% unemployment amongst the legal work force, what kind of opportunities exist for those that are not "legal"? Look at the jobs. They are mostly subsistence agriculture. Agriculture for the hill tribes is slash and burn, a highly destructive method that the government is trying to stop. Unfortunately, as these uneducated workers are forced away from the agricultural sector they have nowhere to go since there are no job opportunities for them. People throw the word "apartheid" around in Thai Visa. I suggest that the Hill Tribe population is living under quasi apartheid conditions. It is a population without full access to legal protection, health care, education and employment opportunity. Perhaps this is attributable to the common sentiment that these people are subhuman.

The emphasis on dirty dishes by the authorities is a politically correct means to avoid dealing with the pandora's box of the sociological and economic issues that attach to the Hill Tribes people and the sex trade.

[softgeorge]

I wonder what the sentence would have been if it was a native Thai and not a Hill -Tribe person?

Native Thai or Hill Tribe doesn't that equal Thai or Thai? Chiangmai Thai or Fang Thai? I am confused what is the difference? Chiangmai Thai or Bangkok Thai?

[geriatrickid]

There were plea changes and two of the individuals are now in jail. The first interrogations took place under circumstances that would be unacceptable even to those calling for their execution. Yes one of the accused is on the run, while the other 2 are in prison. As soon as the third one is caught he will be sent to jail with the trial a mere formality.

You really know nothing at all about this do you? You seem to be altering the facts to try and suit your arguments.

First you said all three were in Jail, now you say it's only two, contradicting your own previous posts and glossing over the fact that one of the two in Jail (who I heard has now been released BTW) was not there on charges relating to the murder of David Crisp.

As to the last sentence above, just explain why you think the third guy hasn't been caught? Really! Maybe, because he doesn't fit the stereotype of "destitute hill tribe victim" you are trying to pin on him at all?

You are right about one thing though, there was a predator involved in this who it seems was the catalyst for the whole situation. That person most definitely was not David Crisp.

Yes I erred when I wrote 3 instead of 2. That is hardly a contradiction of the point to which it was attached, that young men were in jail because of a stupid crime; a crime that caused harm to both the deceased and to themselves. The third person has not been arrested at this time because he has most likely fled to Burma. Doing a runner is standard in Thailand. What's your point aside from desperately trying to find a way to attack me and not the points I have made?

You heard that only one is in jail? Where did you hear that? According to my source, Chatchai Taraskit the 2nd accused is still in custody in respect to the of holding Mr. Crisp's possessions. When were these charges dropped? The murder charge was dropped against him because Awe Ye Piang took full responsibility in the recent plea agreement. They were both looking at the death penalty had Mr. Piang not pleaded guilty. However, Chatchai is still in custody. Did you by happenchance see someone that resembled him when you went to a bar?

What's with the reference to predator? I do not recall labeling Mr. Crisp a predator. If so, please point out where I did so.

[Paagai]

Yes I erred when I wrote 3 instead of 2. That is hardly a contradiction of the point to which it was attached, that young men were in jail because of a stupid crime; a crime that caused harm to both the deceased and to themselves.

You actually wrote:

It is also a tragedy that 3 young men will spend the rest of their lives in prison.

When the reality is only one will. That's a big contradiction from what you wrote!

The third person has not been arrested at this time because he has most likely fled to Burma. Doing a runner is standard in Thailand. What's your point aside from desperately trying to find a way to attack me and not the points I have made?

I'm not attacking you at all, in many ways I agree with some of your points regarding the status of hill tribe people etc. But, I don't believe they are at all applicable in the generalised way you are trying to make them in this case. Earlier you wrote:

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping.

Yes, you are right, I very much suspect Awe Ye Ping is the fall guy here, both at the hands of Thai justice and at the hands of his "friends". What is really "Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on" the elusive "Mr Jack" supposedly a poor destitute male prostitute now hiding in Burma. I think that "background" would shed a whole new light on the validity of your arguments.

You heard that only one is in jail? Where did you hear that? According to my source, Chatchai Taraskit the 2nd accused is still in custody in respect to the of holding Mr. Crisp's possessions. When were these charges dropped? The murder charge was dropped against him because Awe Ye Piang took full responsibility in the recent plea agreement. They were both looking at the death penalty had Mr. Piang not pleaded guilty. However, Chatchai is still in custody. Did you by happenchance see someone that resembled him when you went to a bar?

My understanding was Chatchai was sentenced early last year to two years, reduced to one year because of his guilty plea. I heard from an acquaintance he was recently released and had left Chiang Mai but can't verify that.

After what has happened he would be very unwise to be hanging around any bars here. But strange you should mention this, but as it happens I do see this one familiar looking face from time to time........

What's with the reference to predator? I do not recall labeling Mr. Crisp a predator. If so, please point out where I did so.

I was paraphraing your earlier comment:

Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

But my original point still stands - David Crisp wasn't the predator here.

[Ulysses G.]

The emphasis on dirty dishes by the authorities is a politically correct means to avoid dealing with the pandora's box of the sociological and economic issues that attach to the Hill Tribes people and the sex trade.

Actually, it was the excuse that the accused gave for cold-blooded MURDER.

On his arrest Awe Ye Piang had said Crisp has upset him and his colleagues by complaining about their dirty habits such as not doing the dishes.

[Cnxforever]

[

]

[b]How can you possibly know such details about these young men? How do you know that the victim was a predator? Unless you knew those involved personally, the victim could have just as easily been a kind benefactor. Also, are you honestly suggesting that if there were no foreigners in Thailand, there would be no sex industry? Your comments appear to be both naive and foolish.[/b]

Thank you for providing an opportunity to address this aspect of the story. I have been in the area and I have had interaction with professionals that have provided services to the population. I am familiar with the social conditions of the Hill tribes and have had the opportunity to sit in on interviews with subjects similar to the accused. , I have made several inquiries about this case and have spoken with some people familiar with details of the case. You can either believe me or not believe me on that. This case was quite important for several orgainzations as it came shortly before the Bobby Morse fiasco. The trickle down effect in the following months were memos and revised guidelines for some foreign workers. It is referred to as the "do not touch the merchandise" rule. If you know any public health of social assistance people in the area, ask them what changed after the Crisp and Morse affairs.

I am accused of speculation. Ok. Unfortuantely, many of the comments made by those looking to rip me are based upon a number of sanitized newspaper articles and the word of mouth stories people have offered about the deceased. I'm sure the deceased was a wonderful man in their presence, but these people didn't know how he behaved once he was alone and out of their line of view do they?. It serves no purpose to discuss the man's conduct at the bars. However, how many people were actually aware of his relationship with the drug addicted prostitute? Why do you think this aspect of his life was kept "discreet"? It's an unpleasant subject that some in the expat community don't want to deal with.

There were plea changes and two of the individuals are now in jail. The first interrogations took place under circumstances that would be unacceptable even to those calling for their execution. Yes one of the accused is on the run, while the other 2 are in prison. As soon as the third one is caught he will be sent to jail with the trial a mere formality.

I am amazed by several of the self professed experts on Thailand. If they knew Thaialnd, they would understand the court process for a poor person. The trial did not allow for full disclosure of all events related to the case. That's not how Thai trials work. It is easier to attribute a violent reaction to dishes than to enter a discussion of activities involving multiple sex partners. Prostitution and sex are taboo subjects. The living conditions and exploitation of the Hill Tribes people are taboo subjects. For group that claims they know Thais and the concept of saving face, surely they can understand why a young male is going to be unable to make a statement in court detailing sordid sexual activities and why the specifics of the relationship could not be discussed openly. Some readers have figured out what had occurred on previous occassions. I do not believe the 3 young men were at the house for a sing along or a remedial reading lesson

Yes, the deceased could have been a benefactor. However, most benefactors do not usually have sex with their subjects.

"It is referred to as the "do not touch the merchandise" rule. If you know any public health of social assistance people in the area, ask them what changed after the Crisp and Morse affairs."

I don't know what the arguments you make has to do with this case?

The above "do not touch the merchandise" obviously refers to people you work with in public health or social assistance - these young man - where selling themselves for sex in a bar ! They where not picked up somewhere on the street, not lured and coerced into indecent acts by an evil man who wanted to harm them - they offered themselves for money! Yes it was poor judgment or naivety or maybe just to much trust into people buy the victim. They betrayed his trust in the worst possible way.

And it is totally irrelevant if they are hill tribes, Thai or whatever nationality - fact is they murdered the man in cold blood striking cowardly from behind while he was sitting working on his computer.

Of course there are cultural differences when it comes to crimes and the way they are perceived - as the saying goes - a life is cheap here - and the life of another human does not have the same value here then in other cultures - but this is no excuse for murder!

These young men obviously showed no remorse at all - going to drink after the murder doing what spending the victims money?? Celebrating? - (and I am sure the police can't make that up easily as there must be witnesses) - items stolen from the victim where - according to police - found in the room of the accused - do you want to imply the police put them there? Or that the 3 men went there after the murder and stole and took off in his car?

As for the Thai justice system you seem to be unaware that a "trial" as you know it in most western country does not exist here!

In Thailand the police makes the case (and in the first instance it is the police who grants bail or not ) - once the police have made their case the story is more or less over - the accused is then later asked to enter a guilty or not guilty plea - the next step the "trial" how you call it - is more or less the sentencing and nothing else - unless you are connected and rich and can drag it out with legal tricks and appeal after appeal - but if you are guilty the day where you pay for your crimes will come!

I do not want to speak for the police and the Thai justice system here because it is flawed and corrupt to the core - and I absolutely agree with you that - like in most other countries as well - if you are rich you have a much better chance to defend yourself or like in some cases get away even if guilty.

This case though seems airtight - and I hope that justice is taking it's course even though it will not bring the victim back.

[asiawatcher]

Murder is murder and petty theft only compounds the issue, irrespective of the circumstances surrounding the 'alleged' sexual activities between the perp and the victim and reasoning (assumption) behind motive..

[csolgosz]

For those ignorant enough of the situation, yes, some of the earlier posters said it plain enough. Many - dare I say most - prostitutes in Thailand (men or women) prefer to earn money that way because it is an easy life. Anyone who has been here long enough knows that a lot will turn away the opportunity for alternative employment because it involves WORK!!! And they will often go for the oldest, ugliest, fattest man that walks in the bar, because they know he will pay the best. If you still have a problem, why don't you provide a lucrative opportunity that will make them all give up prostitution - particularly by working your own asses off so that they can sit on theirs...

And those who make connections between a 22 year old adult murderer and children who are abused by paedophiles are just insensitive fools who would better keep their traps shut. The deceased man is entitled to at least that much respect. This thread is ridiculous, and I suspect that a lot of the posters are not even living here, as I have heard that is the case with a majority of ThaiVisa posters.

RIP, sir.

[thaimate]

I have just finished reading the posts on here ,and to think at the begining i was banned for a day for saying things much less contraversial ,but i will say again leaving out the rest that i feel it was a little inapropriate for a 53 year old teacher to have 3 young male prostitutes living with him . This does not excuse the brutal murder . its just that when we first came to live in Pattaya some years ago almost the same thing happened close to where we lived .an older male gentelman had two young rent boys living with him ,he was also killed.

[Chopperboy]

ENDURE seems to be more on track than GERIATRICKID. Helping someone down and out doesn't make one a pervert or a criminal. In fact, such behavior as supposed by Geriatric isn't even illegal here, but murder is... Even with the presumption of some evil doing, there is no balance to this story.

I was unaware that taking drug addicted destitute males for the purposes of sexual activity was considered helping someone down and out. In the world I come from, such assistance of provided by way of a meal or a willingness to listen. There are multiple foreign organizations in Thailand that provide education, health services and skills training. That is what helping the down and out is.

Your position is an attempt to excuse some people who exploit the poor and disadvantaged. I also wish to remind you that the characteristics of the sex trade involving hill tribes people is quite different than that which one sees in Pattaya or on Phuket.

The problem that most of the money boys have in Chiangmai is finding a customer!

This last year many have given up and gone back to "real" jobs, mainly in construction because they need a regular income. Its also wrong to assume they're impoverished, there's hardly one without a motorcycle or a touch phone! Most are

Shan not hill tribe, and don't go around stealing, murdering or carrying psychological baggage over their (hard to find)customers. The perception, on this forum, that David was in some way an exploiter is very far from reality.

[SerpentSea]

I have just finished reading the posts on here ,and to think at the begining i was banned for a day for saying things much less contraversial ,but i will say again leaving out the rest that i feel it was a little inapropriate for a 53 year old teacher to have 3 young male prostitutes living with him . This does not excuse the brutal murder . its just that when we first came to live in Pattaya some years ago almost the same thing happened close to where we lived .an older male gentelman had two young rent boys living with him ,he was also killed.

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

[Scott]

This is a tragic situation all the way around. You have some young men who have probably lived in a world where human affection and caring were replaced by a user-usee (victim-victimizer, if you you like)relationship. They likely grew up seeing people as objects. This may have been part of their upbringing and may have been in part that led them to the choices they have made.

For many older gay males, it's not been an easy road. Those closet doors are something that one could only peek out of occasionally. The stakes for honesty and openness about their lifestyle were high--lost jobs, shunned by family and friends. I have no idea about the victim's background, but society didn't make life easy, I am sure. And age doesn't make finding a meaningful relationship easier.

So you have a painful combination of life-circumstances and a tragic ending.

This doesn't alleviate anyone of responsibility for their actions. These young men, regardless of background and circumstances, are not people that should be allowed to harm others. May Mr. Crisp be remember for his life and not the sad circumstances of his demise.

[csolgosz]

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

I am sure that a lot of you who post have never lived here, or never been in contact with the poorer population.

I was with a Thai girl one evening recently in a well-known backpacker area seeing young western girls and guys acting openly like sluts and trying to pick one another up for the night -as 'respectable' single Western people do of course... and then sleep with a different one the next night.

She watched for a while, and then turned to me and said, "Thai people think farang are crazy how they have free sex like this. In my country this doesn't happen. They act like animals."

It generally doesn't either - middle/ higher class Thais excepted. The girls know they have a saleable commodity and they use it. It is suggested that only about 5% of prostitution in Thailand is with sex tourists, the rest is domestic, in the uncountable 'karaoke' bars and 'special massage' parlours etc around the country. Many University girls go out at night to get a bit of extra money and generally won't go home with a guy from a night club without agreeing on a price. Both of her sisters are bargirls and prefer that way of life - it is easier money than earning 5000 baht a month as a maid, and pays for the kids their Thai boyfriends have left them with. No wonder they don't believe in 'free sex'.

But we are never going to convince the cyber armchair white knights in the West who invade these forums with their wealth of experience and knowledge, are we??? And of course he was an 'older' gay man who prefer men who were younger than him... So what...?

[SerpentSea]

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

I am sure that a lot of you who post have never lived here, or never been in contact with the poorer population.

I was with a Thai girl one evening recently in a well-known backpacker area seeing young western girls and guys acting openly like sluts and trying to pick one another up for the night -as 'respectable' single Western people do of course... and then sleep with a different one the next night.

She watched for a while, and then turned to me and said, "Thai people think farang are crazy how they have free sex like this. In my country this doesn't happen. They act like animals."

It generally doesn't either - middle/ higher class Thais excepted. The girls know they have a saleable commodity and they use it. It is suggested that only about 5% of prostitution in Thailand is with sex tourists, the rest is domestic, in the uncountable 'karaoke' bars and 'special massage' parlours etc around the country. Many University girls go out at night to get a bit of extra money and generally won't go home with a guy from a night club without agreeing on a price. Both of her sisters are bargirls and prefer that way of life - it is easier money than earning 5000 baht a month as a maid, and pays for the kids their Thai boyfriends have left them with. No wonder they don't believe in 'free sex'.

But we are never going to convince the cyber armchair white knights in the West who invade these forums with their wealth of experience and knowledge, are we??? And of course he was an 'older' gay man who prefer men who were younger than him... So what...?

So you know everything and got in contact with the poorer population and watched some western backpacker sluts while having a meaningful conversation with a Thai prostitute and now what?

Prostitutes probably don't care if their customers are retired teachers, popular choirmaster or if they are bricklayer or salesmen if they are loved and respected at home or in the expat community or if nobody knows them, if they are from Britain or from Sweden. Nothing makes them special, they are just another customers in the eyes of the prostitutes. They buy sex for money. thats all.