Sex Attack - A British Woman’s Trauma In The Hills

[KJH]

Just re-read this and realised that the last para but one has some words missing... I was typing/talking at the same time so guess I must have accidently deleted a few words... Should have read something like this...

I wasn't brave enough to follow through with all (though my case was a bit different, in that the local police were trying to get me to identify a different guy to the one who actually carried out the attack and, when I refused a couple of weeks later, gave people reasons to suggest that I had somehow deserved what had happened to me - as I went to the mountains, alone, on a bike, something no Thai girl would ever do.... or worse, that I had paid for sex. It took a couple of weeks for these sort of comments to die down, but, in this respect I guess I really was lucky, as my foreign friends in town and the other teachers - both Thai and English- in the English Department at my old school were fantastic and gave me a lot of support...)

I guess that the police have their own reasons and own hidden agendas too. I still don't know why didn't go for the 'right' man, but now, I am so glad that I didn't give into their pressure and pick out the main they had scapegaoted. Though, even if the police had arrested the guy who actually attacked me, I still don't know whether I would have been strong enough to have picked him out of the ID parade or not, and, assuming the police wanted to (as I was told - again I don't know how true it is... - that, under Thai law, in sexual assault cases its up to the police, not the individual as to whether to prosecute the acttacker or not) gone to court.

Thinking about it, given the cultural background, anyone (Thai or western) who is willing to point out the man that attacked her, given that there will be no anonyminity.... - sure there is supposed to be, but when journalists/relatives of the accused are waiting in the police station for you arrive, and when, outside of places like Bangkok, news / gossip travels fast and retribution for the accusations etc. can be quite nasty.... how will the victim ever remain anyonymous? - has to be emotionally strong and extremely brave. I doubt that I am.

[londonthai]

sorry about your ordeal.

much clear picture what happened.

the more such stories and complains about police, the more cops will have to react in a positive manner. Most probably tourist police is better trained and has more manpower/resources to deal with crime against all foreigners

[Pi Sek]

If that's a liar, I'll eat my hat.

[andrewdrummond]

I do not remember an article from the nation 2 years ago, facts don't up, so the whole story probably is made up.

Neither do you remember a forum post from a few minute ago. If you did you would know it didn't say 'The Nation'.

And AD, your site didn't handle the PHP upgrade too well.

My apologies. My webmaster did a few tweaks with my site and then went off duty!

[andrewdrummond]

If that's a liar, I'll eat my hat.

Absolutely. Although the attack is different some of the things she described here are identical to what happened during the Kirsty Jones enquiry where farangs were the first suspects because 'Thais do not do such things'.

My apologies KJH the content of your letter hit so many nails on the head that I felt it deserved as wide an audience as possible while of course keeping your anonymity.

Somebody would have copied it to another site anyway. I do not think many people doubt your sincerity.

Edited February 7, 2011 by andrewdrummond

[eek]

Thank you for sharing your story KJH. Im so very sorry about your experience. Very sad indeed. I wish you the very best.

[Mario2008]

Sorry about your ordeal.

Just want to point out that to be sure a HIV test has to be made after 3 or 6 months (I'm not sure which one it is) after the contact. Only then will you know if you have HIV or not.

Chances of having it are however smaller than you might think or fear. Even when a person has HIV, it doesn't mean one automatically gets it too.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

I wouldn't believe this story - “Around 2 years ago" is not specific. Would be worth to check the nation, if the article about this waman really appeared.

I don't normally stoop to insults but your comments are beyond the pale. So a woman annonymously decides to write an account accusing no one, harming no one, just sharing her ordeal - a not uncommon one at that - and you immediately chose to call her a liar. Nasty response.

KJH, I hope that you find a way to recover from what happened to you. I am very sorry you had to go through that.

[brahmburgers]

The response she got from the local "authorities" 100% credible, this is what happen in Thailand unfortunately, i got self accusing thiefs bragging off the stolen items taken from my place to their homes, all the police did was questioning me about my passport, my permit to stay in Thailand, etc... from being the victim i was treated as the guilty one, you figure it out.

Case 2: i given a taxi driver in Bkk the business card showing the address and map in thai language about a tailor shop where i supposed to collect some clothings and all the driver was interested about was the pieces of fabrics attached to the tailor's business card, looking at it in all possible ways, touching it, smelling it,.....no way to let it go there, i had to tear the thing apart to get a taxi willing to drive me there, i then had to apologise to the tailor explaining the reason why i had to tear apart the thing........it's all like that, police, drivers, etc.....

Agree, totally credible. I read the long note, a few posts above. Sorry to hear of your ordeal, and glad it wasn't worse.

If it is not genuine, there are plenty of similar stories that are.

Yeah. Like this never happens back in your good old home country huh?

Very unlikely that investigators in my home country (USA) would act as childishly as the investigators in the OP story. Certainly, American cops wouldn't repeatedly tell the offended woman such things as 'no, he couldn't have said that, as it's not proper for a Thai man to say such things." However, it's believable that Thai cops would behave in such an immature and unprofessional manner. I've seen it myself. Though not in rape cases, I've seen how immature and unprofessional Thai cops act when investigating thefts.

One theft at my house had dark shoe prints on the side of the house, where the thief climbed against a white exterior wall. The cops didn't care a hoot - didn't even look twice at the bootprints. I've got stories like that as long as my arm. One thing Thai cops are good at is kicking and slugging suspects in custody, especially if the suspect is from a lower caste. They don't necessarily beat them up to get more info, they do it just to show everyone on the scene how tough they are in their positions of authority, and they feel safe knowing the suspect can't fight back.

[surayu]

One theft at my house had dark shoe prints on the side of the house, where the thief climbed against a white exterior wall. The cops didn't care a hoot - didn't even look twice at the bootprints.

I guess you have been lucky that the police didn't try to frame you accusing you of trying to hurt a thai person by not providing him with a safe ladder or open the door for him, putting him at a high risk of getting injuried as he was also carrying your heavy items while dangerously climbing your wall, how bad have you been eh?? not trying to sound sarcastic or ironic at all, sometime people need to experience these "unrealistic" facts to become believers....in Thailand you can :jap:

[TheLaughingMan]

I know 5 [Thai] women that have been raped, none of them ever filed a police-complaint.

Of course you do...........cos they told you right?

My girlfriend was raped and tortured in Bangkok, am I lying too? Was the doctor who examined her lying too? I stood there and watched a room full of male police all smiling and leering at my girlfriend asking for more and more details after she had already spent 2 hours crying her eyes out while giving a very detailed report. They then started threatening ME because I was unhappy with how they were handling it. You know NOTHING. Rape happens here all the time and never goes reported because the cops are as likely to victimize you next if they don't just bungle the whole thing out of incompetence.

[inmysights]

My daughter #2 wrote me she was coming to SEA for a vacation. It is a long flight and I appreciate her effort to see me. I arranged to meet her in Singapore. This country is no place for a Western woman. I don't want my female kin to be a potential agent for positive change in Thailand.

Daughter #3, it's OK for her to come. She comes once a year with a couple thousand of her friends with guns and bombs and stuff, Cobra Gold.

Daughters #1 and #4 I send postcards.

This place is no place for ladies from the West.

What sheer and utter <deleted>. I'VE ALWAYS felt MUCH safer in Asia than the Yobbish Maxim/Playboy mag West.

[inmysights]

The response she got from the local "authorities" 100% credible, this is what happen in Thailand unfortunately, i got self accusing thiefs bragging off the stolen items taken from my place to their homes, all the police did was questioning me about my passport, my permit to stay in Thailand, etc... from being the victim i was treated as the guilty one, you figure it out.

Case 2: i given a taxi driver in Bkk the business card showing the address and map in thai language about a tailor shop where i supposed to collect some clothings and all the driver was interested about was the pieces of fabrics attached to the tailor's business card, looking at it in all possible ways, touching it, smelling it,.....no way to let it go there, i had to tear the thing apart to get a taxi willing to drive me there, i then had to apologise to the tailor explaining the reason why i had to tear apart the thing........it's all like that, police, drivers, etc.....

Agree, totally credible. I read the long note, a few posts above. Sorry to hear of your ordeal, and glad it wasn't worse.

If it is not genuine, there are plenty of similar stories that are.

Yeah. Like this never happens back in your good old home country huh?

Very unlikely that investigators in my home country (USA) would act as childishly as the investigators in the OP story. Certainly, American cops wouldn't repeatedly tell the offended woman such things as 'no, he couldn't have said that, as it's not proper for a Thai man to say such things." However, it's believable that Thai cops would behave in such an immature and unprofessional manner. I've seen it myself. Though not in rape cases, I've seen how immature and unprofessional Thai cops act when investigating thefts.

One theft at my house had dark shoe prints on the side of the house, where the thief climbed against a white exterior wall. The cops didn't care a hoot - didn't even look twice at the bootprints. I've got stories like that as long as my arm. One thing Thai cops are good at is kicking and slugging suspects in custody, especially if the suspect is from a lower caste. They don't necessarily beat them up to get more info, they do it just to show everyone on the scene how tough they are in their positions of authority, and they feel safe knowing the suspect can't fight back.

Leave out the words 'Thai man' and you've accurately described the film 'The Accused' starring Jodie Foster.

[TheLaughingMan]

Inmysights you are doing your best to get your point across but I'm not sure what it is, is it that you think ALL rape simply doesn't exist or just this particular event described here?

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm going to step in here as a mod and remind all of our posters that rape is a serious crime committed primarily by men, and its victims are most often (though not always) women, who as it happens are a protected minority group on Thaivisa. Most research and statistics show that the crime is under-reported, and even in countries with the most compassionate justice systems and police, I cannot imagine doing so is anything other than an ordeal.

This thread will not become a place for general griping about 'women complaining too much about rape.' I hope this public warning is enough.

On a more topical threadly note, I recall that it is only in the last year or so, isn't it, that husbands could even legally be charged with rape of their wives in Thailand.

[TigerWan]

...This place is no place for ladies from the West.

I would agree, no place for gentile ladies cowering as it seems you have to be willing to defend yourself vehemently in Thailand in order to get an attacker prosecuted.

Bangkok Post, several years ago had a great expose on judges attitudes toward female victims of rape that favored those that sustained injuries overwhelmingly.

However, women in the west are taught to not resist rape as it might lead to more injury and so this cultural difference is something foreign women in Thailand need to know- your success with justice is directly proportionate to your injuries-better be beat up and exhibit crying too, instead of a furious or worse- calm demeanor.

I'd like to say I'm a woman and I've lived alone in Thailand for over 6 years now and I feel safer and far far less constantly sexual than in my own country. In Thailand, there is a real lack of the kind of hostile sexual harassment women get hourly on western streets especially US and UK -maybe because in Thailand sex is so available and less moralized?

Edited February 9, 2011 by TigerWan

[TigerWan]

.

This place is no place for ladies from the West.

What sheer and utter <deleted>. I'VE ALWAYS felt MUCH safer in Asia than the Yobbish Maxim/Playboy mag West.

Yes where one is expected to have one's breasts half exposed and most of the legs in order to have any kind of attraction quotient which is really just about the only power women are allowed.

Always on display, for judgement by men. Like prostitutes, really, but have to be prudent, or else !!

I'm embarrassed now when I see western women tourists dressing like I use to !!

[TigerWan]

Inmysights you are doing your best to get your point across but I'm not sure what it is, is it that you think ALL rape simply doesn't exist or just this particular event described here?

Odd as I read IMS as saying rape happens everywhere and cops /judicial systems act badly all over too regarding the victims.

We both agree the west is more harassingly sexist in day to day living but both are still sexist as hell...

Agree IMS?

[TheLaughingMan]

I often hear the same from western women, they feel safer here. Not to be insulting but its just a lack of understanding of a different culture, Thais will smile right up to the point they are killing you, doesn't make them safer. Public sexual harassment comments are not a good indication of danger levels when the culture teaches them to hide their true feelings and intent until the last second. If you are tall and strong you most likely will not be exposed to the darker side of Thailand, which is great if you are tall or strong. I sat with a group of Foreign women and discussed this very topic, the tall or strong looking women all thought thailand was wonderfully safe, the small petite women all stared at the other women in shock and reported that they have had multiple rape attempts in this country and they absolutely will not take any kind of risks (such as taxi at night, walking alone etc..) as they feel completely unsafe. When I say petite I mean like Thai petite, that is the target here. My own girlfriend of many years is unfortunately petite and has been the victim of multiple attacks over the years, that simply would not be happening on that repetitive scale back in her own country.

Back when I was dating Thai women they often would refuse to take a taxi at night alone or go anywhere alone at night, stating "my taxi might rape me". To them its just common sense and a fact. Thai girlfriends have joked that it was so nice to be able to stay in my room alone with me and just talk... as a Thai man would probably rape them. Granted they were joking but the underlying truth is there. If a Thai woman goes into a Thai mans room alone she is there to have sex, if not then she has no business being in there. In rape cases where she was in his room, they will not believe its rape because why the hell would she be in that room if not to have sex?! None of this Canadian ideology where when a woman says no in any situation then it means no, certainly no "we will just sleep".... if she's in there the man has the freedom to take what he wants with little or no repercussion.

Until recently HUSBANDS had the right to rape their wives any time they wanted, it simply was not counted as rape if you were married. Of course there are plenty of Thai men that would respect a womans boundaries, Im just saying, culturally Thai women have a ton more to lookout for and be careful of then western women in the west. It is certainly not safer for them here in their own country than in western countries where they have rights and are protected by the law.

[ericthai]

Why exactly wouldn't you believe this story? Seems like you are one of the people who women complain about after assaults etc.

. The type of person who is insensitive and all too readily discount stories of rape or sexual assault.

No wonder women don't report all rape cases, it is bad enough dealing with the police, never mind posters like you

I do not remember an article from the nation 2 years ago, facts don't up, so the whole story probably is made up.

I don't see the reason, why some woman might complain to police about me.

So anything you dont remember is not true?

Guys let it go this is a troll..

[KJH]

Sorry its taken a while to reply. Im travelling now so don't read or look at the news on Thaivisa as often as I used to.

Thanks for all your comments and support. As I said the attack happened over 2 years ago. Its not something I think about that much anymore.

A friend in England read what I wrote and was surprised I was so open about it. I didn't plan, or mean to be, but once I started typing, the words just spewed out.

I've read everyone's comments on what I wrote.

Here are mine...

London Thai:-

RE:- Comment about tourist police... Maybe you are right, maybe they would have dealt with the case better and been more professional than the local police. But, when they showed up at school, demanding that I repeat the story from scratch, and complaining to the teachers (who did not want to upset me, at school by making me repeat the story when the police already had the details...) they were anything but professional.

AndrewDrummond:-

Your comment 'thais do not do such things...' is something I heard a lot. Truth is, it probably was a hilltribe guy who attacked me (given that the nearest villages to where the attack took place are all Mong hilltribe villages), but even before there was any conclusive proof of this, people were going around blaming the 'chao khao' and telling me that no Thai person would ever do anything like that, especially to a foreigner.

Mario2008:-

Thanks for letting me know. Other people have also told me similar things.

Brhahmburgers:-

Yeah I agree. I know that people complain about the insensitive way rape/assault cases are handled back in England too, I guess its difficult for authorities know how to deal with such cases but I'd like to believe that English cops are nowhere near as insensitive as the Thai ones were. eg. I'd like to think that in England victims are interviewed by women, are not asked about their taste in men, and whether they go for Thai ones or not etc...

I can understand some of the problems Thai cops had. They are men. They work in a small city, are not used to cases like this being brought to them (as I believe that a lot of Thai women who are raped - I've known of 2 - would never ever ever go to the police...)

A lot of it's cultural. Their own ways of thinking about sexual relations between men and women are very different from how we think in the west and that this affects their judgement and the way they question you; their own ways of thinking about appearance too... eg. we notice eyes, and the structure of a face whereas thai people tend to notice noses and how pale or dark someones skin is more - probably why the police asked me whether he was 'black skinned' 'piw dam...' or not a lot, and why they didn't seem to take notes when I described his eyes, but kept asking me about the shape of his nose.

I'm really sorry to hear what happened to you. Yeah, I've heard stories of people being singled out by the police too, and yeah I agree, maybe once in a while they have some desperate need to show who's boss.

But part of me still believes that, in my case, ome people in the police force really did want to help. They just (because of the way that they think and the way (later on) that they wanted me to pick out 'a bad guy'...) couldn't.

Thelaughingman:-

I'm really sorry to hear about your girlfriends story. Sounds like you both went through a terrible ordeal. I really hope that she's OK now.

TigerWan:-I agree totally. In the west we're taught to be calm, and that resistance will make things worse. I think Thai girls believe that they should kick, scream etc. (some are even told - as I later found out when people asked me why i did not do this - and I'm talking educated people in BKK here too... not just people from the town where i stayed - to 'bite it off...')

I kicked out when the guy dragged me across the grass but I don't remember screaming... though if I had no one would have heard. The attack took place around 50m or so from one of the main roads in the province, but save for a couple of buses and songteaws in the morning, most of the time, there's no traffic on the road. I didn't hear a single car or motorbike go by in the time that the attack took place.

I think my lack of resistance allowed some people to say, later, that I wanted to have sex with the guy. Their comments upset me a lot.

Re:- Thailand safer than the west. It's all relative. I lived in Thailand for 6 years too, and most of the time felt very safe there. In BKK I could happily wander around at 2am without ever worrying that someone was going to mug me, or take my mobile. I'm not sure I would want to do the same thing in London. I could also go out drinking without worrying about lechy men (unlike at home...) and rarely felt threatened sexually.

But westerners/Thai people have very different ideas about what is/isn't safe. Thai people would never behave the way I did in the town where I lived. They used to tell me all the time, its not safe to ride your bike after dark (there are bad men on the street) you shouldn't stay alone at night / live alone (what happens if an attacker comes to your house...) etc...

Sure, (for guys with money at least..) sex is much more 'available' here though I'm not sure that I agree with your comments about it being less moralised. In some ways it is... eg. guys often have giks, or will pay for sex with whoever, whenever. Girls who do sell their bodies for sex (some aren't 'career' prostitutes, as I understand it, eg. some will only sell their bodies to certain men/friends and only at certain times eg. when they need money for something...) do this without any feelings of shame etc... that westerners would expect someone who took money for sex to have... But, in other ways, as I understand it, there's this big double standard... in that guys are supposed to be sexually experienced, but girls (the good ones anyway...) are supposed to virgins who don't play around with men... It's almost Victorian.

Another reason why we probably feel safer here that Thais is because we're foriegn. I don't know how you look, but I'm well built, a little bit overwieght and not into wearing skirts/looking that feminine. I'm not most Thai guys idea of a good looking girl so they don't hassle me. But, I know of at least 2 foreign friends (younger, prettier ones) who, when they went to Thailand were pestered by Thai guys.

The Laughing Man:-

I agree with your comments.

[andrewt]

Oh come on this story is not true.

[Bangkokhatter]

Oh come on this story is not true.

so tell us why exactly you think it's not true ??