Formula 1 In 2011

[wackysleet]

I'm beginning to understand why non-Schumi fans found the 2001-04 seasons so boring! At least we've had a couple of good races this year where Vettel's car/tyres 'let him down' in the last few laps, and a few more, where the fight for the podium finishes were electrifying.

Hopefully, Valencia was just one of the 'few' boring races this year.

http://www.thenation...rse-at-red-bull

Quite an interesting article here by Johnny Herbert.

I think it's very true that Vettel's dominance has been in part due to him stepping up his game, but also further exaggerated by Webber just dropping by the way side. What has happened to the man? He always used to be known for his fighting Aussie grit and determination, but these days he just seems to have given up, at least in terms of challenging his team mate. The Championship is suffering for it, not that i suppose Vettel or even Red Bull care much about that.

By rights, going on the car's performances, i think in Valenicia the final finishing positions should have been the Bulls one and two, the Ferraris three and four and the McLarens five and six. Alonso and Lewis over-achieved and Webber and Massa underachieved.

I agree with most of what you say Rix but I do think people in general are being unfair to Sebastian, he is very talented and yes he does have probably the best car but lot's of drivers that have won the WDC have been in a similar position in that regards and don't let us forget that last year for the latter part of the season there were 5 drivers in contention and against a lot of doubters he still came through at the finish even though my preferred driver only managed second position.

Actually I have to smile when I read/hear people saying Sebastian cracked under pressure from Jenson into making a mistake, yes he made a mistake but whether it was down to pressure i'm not so sure, could we not say that when a driver on his hot lap get's it wrong that he did not succumb to the pressures of qualifying near the front, a mistake is just that, a mistake.

With Mark and his lack of front running this season, albeit still joint second, perhaps he has adopted a defeatish attitude after last season when he was probably favourite in the latter stages to take the title and knows in his heart that that was probably his last chance to get the WDC, he now and upto a point last seaon appears to have become rather surly in his attitude to the team and his team mate, no problem after all they are competiters but his attitude and remarks he has made concerning the team has not done him any good, last season you may remember that I commented on the inadvertantly left cover on Jensons car where you said that it was not a conspiracy and I agree, but this season Mark has and to be fair, others too that his car has not been that reliable compared to Sebastians, ie Kers not always working plus a few other problems but young Vettel has been having as much trouble with his Kers as Mark has and not had a little whinge but got on with the job and the results speak for themselves.

Agree with all of that bar one thing. The Red Bull isn't probably the best car, it is the best car, by some margin. They keep back some in reserve on certain occasions, like practice, qualifying, and when leading races, but if and when they need to, they can up the pace. Well, at least Vettel manages to, and yes, some of that is down to his own skill, which is unquestionable, but it also has to do with the car. And yes again, Vettel is no different, almost all World Champs have coincidentally been the ones driving the best car on the grid. Exceptions are few and far between.

The term "probably" was really meant in reference to the Maclaren team and drivers who believe or say, that in race trim their car is a match for RBR, who am I to disagree although if that is the case then I suspect Sebastian is a far better driver than either Lewis or Jenson seeing as he usually beats them by a considerable margin, but then again Lewis is quoted by the media that this year Maclaren has no chance of the championship only to have that alleged statement contradicted, but it would not please the fans or sponsers if a team basically gave up this early in the season so one {me} does not know what to believe.:jap:

Edited June 29, 2011 by wackysleet

[rixalex]

The term "probably" was really meant in reference to the Maclaren team and drivers who believe or say, that in race trim their car is a match for RBR, who am I to disagree although if that is the case then I suspect Sebastian is a far better driver than either Lewis or Jenson seeing as he usually beats them by a considerable margin, but then again Lewis is quoted by the media that this year Maclaren has no chance of the championship only to have that alleged statement contradicted, but it would not please the fans or sponsers if a team basically gave up this early in the season so one {me} does not know what to believe.:jap:

I think there are a certain set of characteristics that when all perfectly aligned, do allow McLaren to run the Bulls very close in race trim, and i think that is where the comment has come from.

As for giving up on the title, i don't think any team or driver should be doing that until mathematically it is beyond reach. Those of us who have been following F1 for a long time, know that things can and do change.

[wackysleet]

The term "probably" was really meant in reference to the Maclaren team and drivers who believe or say, that in race trim their car is a match for RBR, who am I to disagree although if that is the case then I suspect Sebastian is a far better driver than either Lewis or Jenson seeing as he usually beats them by a considerable margin, but then again Lewis is quoted by the media that this year Maclaren has no chance of the championship only to have that alleged statement contradicted, but it would not please the fans or sponsers if a team basically gave up this early in the season so one {me} does not know what to believe.:jap:

I think there are a certain set of characteristics that when all perfectly aligned, do allow McLaren to run the Bulls very close in race trim, and i think that is where the comment has come from.

As for giving up on the title, i don't think any team or driver should be doing that until mathematically it is beyond reach. Those of us who have been following F1 for a long time, know that things can and do change.

Well who would have thought that at the begining or at least part of the way through the season that Fernando and Ferrari would come good in the latter stages and fight to the very last race.

Just as an aside, although there are numerous drivers I cheer for and I do have a favourite, but above all I am very happy if I see a really good, fair race irrespective of who wins, my view has always been the best man on the day deserves his day of glory, and yes that even includes Lewis

[rixalex]

Just as an aside, although there are numerous drivers I cheer for and I do have a favourite, but above all I am very happy if I see a really good, fair race irrespective of who wins, my view has always been the best man on the day deserves his day of glory, and yes that even includes Lewis

Echo those sentiments, and yes, that even includes Alonso.

[wackysleet]

Just as an aside, although there are numerous drivers I cheer for and I do have a favourite, but above all I am very happy if I see a really good, fair race irrespective of who wins, my view has always been the best man on the day deserves his day of glory, and yes that even includes Lewis

Echo those sentiments, and yes, that even includes Alonso.

I bet that hurt didn't it mate, but you still cannot call him FERNANDO

[wackysleet]

Come on posters let's have some input between the races, stories, thoughts, ideas, even what rules you would like to see, what do we think of Kers and DRS does it actually improve the spectacle or do you think it enables overtaking but in a somewhat contrived way, is it really driver skill? or a cynical ploy because F1 had actually become very boring {at least for me}, tyres? all the different compounds seems to have achieved their aim to inject a little more excitement into the racing but I still feel that it's strategy that plays a big part in the outcome, what do posters think of the younger drivers? are any of them potential future champions.

PS.Views on a post card please to;;;;;;;;;;

David.

[rixalex]

I bet that hurt didn't it mate, but you still cannot call him FERNANDO

Well, not sure mate what you read into my referring to him by his surname rather than his first name, but i can assure you it's simply because Alonso is a quicker and easier word to type than Fernando. Less letters for a start!

As for it hurting, whilst it's true i dislike the man, i have no problem recognising his talents, and will do exactly that when it's deserving, such as when he won the Championship in a fairly average car (which as i recently acknowledged is a rare achievement indeed), but i also won't hesitate to recognise his failings, as i see them, such as when he failed to get the better of a rookie team mate, or when he acted with indignation because Massa wasn't simply slowing down and letting him pass, or when he delayed his pit stop in qualifying to prevent Lewis from setting a time, or when he tried blackmailing the team with "give me preferential treatment or i go public with they spying stuff".

I could easily go on, just as i'm sure you could match my list with one of your own on why you think Lewis is an "<deleted>".

At the end of the day though, and despite all that, i hope you respect my ability to judge a driver objectively - or as objectively as is reasonably possible - when it comes to that driver's performances on the track, as i do indeed respect yours.

The respect thing, or lack thereof, is where i think last year's thread took a turn for the worse.

Moving on... as for KERS, DRS and all that nonsense, i think you and i have already agreed, some time ago, that the biggest problem with F1 racing isn't to do with the cars but to do with the tracks. This is where FIA's energy and money should be directed. Stop this constant year by year meddling with the rules, stop with the gimmicks, and stick with the basics.

Anybody seen the Senna movie yet?

[wackysleet]

I bet that hurt didn't it mate, but you still cannot call him FERNANDO

Well, not sure mate what you read into my referring to him by his surname rather than his first name, but i can assure you it's simply because Alonso is a quicker and easier word to type than Fernando. Less letters for a start!

As for it hurting, whilst it's true i dislike the man, i have no problem recognising his talents, and will do exactly that when it's deserving, such as when he won the Championship in a fairly average car (which as i recently acknowledged is a rare achievement indeed), but i also won't hesitate to recognise his failings, as i see them, such as when he failed to get the better of a rookie team mate, or when he acted with indignation because Massa wasn't simply slowing down and letting him pass, or when he delayed his pit stop in qualifying to prevent Lewis from setting a time, or when he tried blackmailing the team with "give me preferential treatment or i go public with they spying stuff".

I could easily go on, just as i'm sure you could match my list with one of your own on why you think Lewis is an "<deleted>".

At the end of the day though, and despite all that, i hope you respect my ability to judge a driver objectively - or as objectively as is reasonably possible - when it comes to that driver's performances on the track, as i do indeed respect yours.

The respect thing, or lack thereof, is where i think last year's thread took a turn for the worse.

Moving on... as for KERS, DRS and all that nonsense, i think you and i have already agreed, some time ago, that the biggest problem with F1 racing isn't to do with the cars but to do with the tracks. This is where FIA's energy and money should be directed. Stop this constant year by year meddling with the rules, stop with the gimmicks, and stick with the basics.

Anybody seen the Senna movie yet?

I do respect your views and opinions even though I may not agree with them, how boring if we all thought the same way, I have always believed that opinions are based on how we perceive things, especially the facts so it's often subjective.

At the beginning of the season I did get angry with a poster that replied to something I wrote, I believe that post has now been removed, basically tit for tat but childish nonetheless.

Your right in that I could name things about Lewis's past but will desist, it is all history but one thing I would like to say regarding the pit incidence between Fernando and Lewis, according to Ron Denis in a statement he made was that Lewis had failed to adhere to an agreement made by the team concerning the fact Lewis broke the sequence of events and that Fernando was not allowed to move until authorised by his engineer and although there was a delay of several seconds {Ron's words not mine} I cannot believe that stopped Lewis going out again and even if he had there was no gaurantee that he would have improved his time or that Fernando would not have beaten him to pole.

We have both acknowleged our drivers have faults and we still support them, my dislike for Lewis has very little if anything to do with his driving style just the state of his mind that allows him to drive with total disregard for others.

[rixalex]

Your right in that I could name things about Lewis's past but will desist, it is all history but one thing I would like to say regarding the pit incidence between Fernando and Lewis, according to Ron Denis in a statement he made was that Lewis had failed to adhere to an agreement made by the team concerning the fact Lewis broke the sequence of events and that Fernando was not allowed to move until authorised by his engineer and although there was a delay of several seconds {Ron's words not mine} I cannot believe that stopped Lewis going out again and even if he had there was no gaurantee that he would have improved his time or that Fernando would not have beaten him to pole.

Morning David.

Here is the steward's full verdict:

During the final minutes of Qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his team-mate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop. The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of Qualifying.

The Team Principal, together with the team manager and both drivers were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions. Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:

At the commencement of the third period of the Qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team (“The Team”) that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.

In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso. The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferran driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.

Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to “box this lap” and required him to do a “hard in lap” but advised him some 32 seconds later to “slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you”.

At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later Alonso was told that when he pitted “we are going to hold you for 20 seconds”.

At 14:57:46 Alonso’s car arrived at his pit stop position, his tyres were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later. The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the “lollipop” was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.

By this time Hamilton’s car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso. Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds. He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of Qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.

Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.

The team were asked to explain why having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.

The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton’s own pit stop is not accepted.

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally. The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix wilt be withdrawn.

The team is reminded of its right of appeal.

So my feeling is that Lewis acted like a <deleted> for not letting Alonso pass, but then Alonso attempted to avenge him by sitting in the pits a further ten seconds after he had been given the lollipop signal to leave. Alonso's reasoning for those ten seconds was i think a blatant and a pathetic lie: he said that he wanted to check that the correct tyres had been fitted and in the twenty seconds of sitting there twiddling his thumbs, it wasn't possible to do so because they were counting him down. Come on. Really?! You've got to be having a laugh.

Anyway, as i say, Lewis was by no means innocent in it all, and the team too have to share some of the blame, but please let's not kid ourselves about the game Alonso was playing on that day.

[wackysleet]

Your right in that I could name things about Lewis's past but will desist, it is all history but one thing I would like to say regarding the pit incidence between Fernando and Lewis, according to Ron Denis in a statement he made was that Lewis had failed to adhere to an agreement made by the team concerning the fact Lewis broke the sequence of events and that Fernando was not allowed to move until authorised by his engineer and although there was a delay of several seconds {Ron's words not mine} I cannot believe that stopped Lewis going out again and even if he had there was no gaurantee that he would have improved his time or that Fernando would not have beaten him to pole.

Morning David.

Here is the steward's full verdict:

During the final minutes of Qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his team-mate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop. The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of Qualifying.

The Team Principal, together with the team manager and both drivers were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions. Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:

At the commencement of the third period of the Qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team ("The Team") that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.

In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso. The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap. Because of the proximity of the Ferran driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.

Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to "box this lap" and required him to do a "hard in lap" but advised him some 32 seconds later to "slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you".

At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later Alonso was told that when he pitted "we are going to hold you for 20 seconds".

At 14:57:46 Alonso's car arrived at his pit stop position, his tyres were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later. The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the "lollipop" was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.

By this time Hamilton's car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso. Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds. He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of Qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.

Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.

The team were asked to explain why having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.

The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted. The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.

The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally. The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula One Constructors Championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix wilt be withdrawn.

The team is reminded of its right of appeal.

So my feeling is that Lewis acted like a <deleted> for not letting Alonso pass, but then Alonso attempted to avenge him by sitting in the pits a further ten seconds after he had been given the lollipop signal to leave. Alonso's reasoning for those ten seconds was i think a blatant and a pathetic lie: he said that he wanted to check that the correct tyres had been fitted and in the twenty seconds of sitting there twiddling his thumbs, it wasn't possible to do so because they were counting him down. Come on. Really?! You've got to be having a laugh.

Anyway, as i say, Lewis was by no means innocent in it all, and the team too have to share some of the blame, but please let's not kid ourselves about the game Alonso was playing on that day.

Good morning Rix.

Or indeed the blatant disregard for team orders for Lewis, please do not get me wrong, I think that Fernandos stalling leaving the pits was revenge but if Lewis had not played his little game then the likelyhood this would not have happened.

I do not understand why the team kept him there for the 20 seconds but believe me there is a lot more to the reasons than ever came out at the enquiry.

Personally I think that all posters get onto Fernandos case because he is petulant at times and all winners or at least most of them are somewhat selfish in their actions but very few posters criticise their favourites unless a direct question or comparison is asked/made, my own view is that most of the negative things about Fernandos behaviour have stopped while others are continuing with their actions, please when the subject about throwing toys out of prams comes up then Fernando could learn a lot from a certain driver whose public statements in regards to his team are in my mind tantamount to blackmail.

Let us accept that not all drivers are what they seem to be, most I suspect have a darker side. I believe that the disrespect for posters has crept in because they cannot see the failings of their favourites weighed against the favourite of someone else.

[rixalex]

Good morning Rix.

Or indeed the blatant disregard for team orders for Lewis, please do not get me wrong, I think that Fernandos stalling leaving the pits was revenge but if Lewis had not played his little game then the likelyhood this would not have happened.

I do not understand why the team kept him there for the 20 seconds but believe me there is a lot more to the reasons than ever came out at the enquiry.

Personally I think that all posters get onto Fernandos case because he is petulant at times and all winners or at least most of them are somewhat selfish in their actions but very few posters criticise their favourites unless a direct question or comparison is asked/made, my own view is that most of the negative things about Fernandos behaviour have stopped while others are continuing with their actions, please when the subject about throwing toys out of prams comes up then Fernando could learn a lot from a certain driver whose public statements in regards to his team are in my mind tantamount to blackmail.

Let us accept that not all drivers are what they seem to be, most I suspect have a darker side. I believe that the disrespect for posters has crept in because they cannot see the failings of their favourites weighed against the favourite of someone else.

Mate, either my reading comprehension is slipping, or you are still in the UK and wrote that at an ungodly hour.

[rixalex]

Or indeed the blatant disregard for team orders for Lewis, please do not get me wrong, I think that Fernandos stalling leaving the pits was revenge but if Lewis had not played his little game then the likelyhood this would not have happened.

I'm a little confused wacky because in your earlier comments you seemed to be suggesting that it was Alonso's engineers that caused his delay, whereas in the above you accept it having been down to Alonso's revenge.

There's no doubt that it was revenge, in my mind anyway, and if those sympathetic to Alonso's cause agree with that but with the caveat that Lewis started it and that he kind of deserved it, then fine, but accepting that also means accepting that Alonso not only dropped down to match the young rookie's unsportsmanlike behaviour, but he took it one stage further, not only in his actions, but also in the concocted story given to the stewards.

I do not understand why the team kept him there for the 20 seconds but believe me there is a lot more to the reasons than ever came out at the enquiry.

Care to speculate because i really can't think of any reason besides that they wanted both drivers to be doing their final flying laps in the dying seconds so as to benefit from the cleanest possible racing line - why the team didn't say this rather than giving the reason about track position i don't know.

Anyway, had Alonso left when he was told to - would you not say he too was guilty of disregarding team orders for not? - then Lewis would have crossed the line in time before the chequered flag came out.

my own view is that most of the negative things about Fernandos behaviour have stopped while others are continuing with their actions, please when the subject about throwing toys out of prams comes up then Fernando could learn a lot from a certain driver whose public statements in regards to his team are in my mind tantamount to blackmail.

I agree that Alonso's more recent behaviour has improved but i think his behaviour has always been pretty reasonable all the time he is unquestionably number one at whatever team he is driving for. Problems only tend to arise with him when his position is under threat, either on the track or within the team. Luckily for him right now, he has a team mate who has slipped from being decent to being plain average (perhaps that's what happens when a big spring hits your head?).

Another factor here is interpretation. Just before the last race i read an interview with Alonso in which he said that the last seven races were the best races of his career, and that all they needed now was the best car. If those words had come out of someone else's mouth, i think certain supporters would have reacted quite sharply to what could be construed as something of an arrogant claim: my performance has been perfect, not so the car type thing. As i say, interpretation.

[wackysleet]

Or indeed the blatant disregard for team orders for Lewis, please do not get me wrong, I think that Fernandos stalling leaving the pits was revenge but if Lewis had not played his little game then the likelyhood this would not have happened.

I'm a little confused wacky because in your earlier comments you seemed to be suggesting that it was Alonso's engineers that caused his delay, whereas in the above you accept it having been down to Alonso's revenge.

There's no doubt that it was revenge, in my mind anyway, and if those sympathetic to Alonso's cause agree with that but with the caveat that Lewis started it and that he kind of deserved it, then fine, but accepting that also means accepting that Alonso not only dropped down to match the young rookie's unsportsmanlike behaviour, but he took it one stage further, not only in his actions, but also in the concocted story given to the stewards.

I do not understand why the team kept him there for the 20 seconds but believe me there is a lot more to the reasons than ever came out at the enquiry.

Care to speculate because i really can't think of any reason besides that they wanted both drivers to be doing their final flying laps in the dying seconds so as to benefit from the cleanest possible racing line - why the team didn't say this rather than giving the reason about track position i don't know.

Anyway, had Alonso left when he was told to - would you not say he too was guilty of disregarding team orders for not? - then Lewis would have crossed the line in time before the chequered flag came out.

my own view is that most of the negative things about Fernandos behaviour have stopped while others are continuing with their actions, please when the subject about throwing toys out of prams comes up then Fernando could learn a lot from a certain driver whose public statements in regards to his team are in my mind tantamount to blackmail.

I agree that Alonso's more recent behaviour has improved but i think his behaviour has always been pretty reasonable all the time he is unquestionably number one at whatever team he is driving for. Problems only tend to arise with him when his position is under threat, either on the track or within the team. Luckily for him right now, he has a team mate who has slipped from being decent to being plain average (perhaps that's what happens when a big spring hits your head?).

Another factor here is interpretation. Just before the last race i read an interview with Alonso in which he said that the last seven races were the best races of his career, and that all they needed now was the best car. If those words had come out of someone else's mouth, i think certain supporters would have reacted quite sharply to what could be construed as something of an arrogant claim: my performance has been perfect, not so the car type thing. As i say, interpretation.

T o answer the first part of your post with regards to his engineer you can Google Fernando Alonso on Wikipedia under the heading, controversy.

Second question concerning Fernandos probable revenge, personally I think tit for tat is what it was all about and if someone hit me once then I would hit them twice so yes, he did retaliate like most, it's called 'cause and effect."

I too read that interview, whether it was his best driving then only he knows and with regards to his statement about if "I only had the best car," then perhaps you should remember that his car has been pretty dismal upto a couple of races ago but he at least has signed a very long term contract with no veiled threats about jumping ship or that "I don't feel a sense of loyalty comes into it" he has committed to a fairly uncompetitive team at the moment, possibly until the end of his career.

The fact that the enquiry found the team and driver to be lying is again your word, interpretation, maybe they were maybe they were not.

Lastly but out of order there are things that I hear from very informed sources and as I have already mentioned in a PM to you I'm not prepared to elaborate, but the gossip/news could also be open to interpretation.

David.

[rixalex]

T o answer the first part of your post with regards to his engineer you can Google Fernando Alonso on Wikipedia under the heading, controversy.

Just done so and didn't really in all honesty find it very revealing. It mentions Alonso being under the control of his engineer but doesn't elaborate. If he was one wonders why they simply didn't present the car to pit radio conversation between Alonso and his engineer to the stewards, and thereby clear Alonso of wrong-doing.

One fairly glaring bit of misinformation on Wiki in that same paragraph, is in the sentence: In the qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix, while both McLarens were in the pits, Alonso remained stationary in the McLaren pit for a few seconds. Well, Alonso arrived at the pit at 14:57:46, the tyres had been changed 6 seconds later, 14:57:52, there was then a wait of twenty seconds when the lollipop came up at 14:58:12. Alonso then sat where he was for another 10 seconds, taking us to 14:58:22. In total that all comes to 34 seconds, yet Wiki describes it as being a "few seconds". When such elementary details are being quoted incorrectly, it makes you wonder about the rest, does it not?

Second question concerning Fernandos probable revenge, personally I think tit for tat is what it was all about and if someone hit me once then I would hit them twice so yes, he did retaliate like most, it's called 'cause and effect."

Two eyes for an eye you mean?

Well, as much as there was cause and effect in Lewis's actions, there was also subsequent cause and effect in Alonso's choice of actions. That being that ended up 5 places back from where he qualified.

[wackysleet]

T o answer the first part of your post with regards to his engineer you can Google Fernando Alonso on Wikipedia under the heading, controversy.

Just done so and didn't really in all honesty find it very revealing. It mentions Alonso being under the control of his engineer but doesn't elaborate. If he was one wonders why they simply didn't present the car to pit radio conversation between Alonso and his engineer to the stewards, and thereby clear Alonso of wrong-doing.

One fairly glaring bit of misinformation on Wiki in that same paragraph, is in the sentence: In the qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix, while both McLarens were in the pits, Alonso remained stationary in the McLaren pit for a few seconds. Well, Alonso arrived at the pit at 14:57:46, the tyres had been changed 6 seconds later, 14:57:52, there was then a wait of twenty seconds when the lollipop came up at 14:58:12. Alonso then sat where he was for another 10 seconds, taking us to 14:58:22. In total that all comes to 34 seconds, yet Wiki describes it as being a "few seconds". When such elementary details are being quoted incorrectly, it makes you wonder about the rest, does it not?

Second question concerning Fernandos probable revenge, personally I think tit for tat is what it was all about and if someone hit me once then I would hit them twice so yes, he did retaliate like most, it's called 'cause and effect."

Two eyes for an eye you mean?

Well, as much as there was cause and effect in Lewis's actions, there was also subsequent cause and effect in Alonso's choice of actions. That being that ended up 5 places back from where he qualified.

Probably Wikipedia may not have had access to the actual times and again we could be referring to interpretation, 10 seconds in F1 may only represent a few seconds in someone that may not understand the signifance of hundreds of a second.

Yes Fernando did end up getting the shitty end of the stick for his retaliation and if as it seems it was intentional then he got punished but Lewis did not get anything.

Two eyes for one, that's exactly what I meant. We can run around this subject of Fernando v Lewis for ever and a day, claim and counter claim but it will resolve nothing, you don't like Fernando and I don't like Lewis, so I will endeavor to refrain from making any remarks in future on this subject.

[rixalex]

Two eyes for one, that's exactly what I meant. We can run around this subject of Fernando v Lewis for ever and a day, claim and counter claim but it will resolve nothing, you don't like Fernando and I don't like Lewis, so I will endeavor to refrain from making any remarks in future on this subject.

I certainly hope not.

As i have already said, i respect your opinion dearly... and what's more, i enjoy reading your take... all the more so when it differs from mine. Please don't refrain. At least, not on my behalf.

[Atmos]

Daniel Ricciardo: Improbable dream about to come true

DALE MILLER, The West Australian

July 2, 2011, 7:40 am

A level-headed young racer who sprang from modest Italian roots in Perth's northern suburbs is likely to become one of Australia's richest sportsmen if he can continue the meteoric rise that has landed him a dream Formula 1 berth.

At just 22, Daniel Ricciardo will create history when he becomes the first native West Australian to compete in one of the world's most lucrative championships next Sunday at the British Grand Prix.

His F1 debut at Silverstone will be the culmination of an improbable journey that started at age 9, driving go-karts in Wanneroo and was made possible by his father's punt to send his teenage son overseas in search of an unlikely dream.

*******

Ricciardo was given a perfect 22nd birthday present when it was confirmed that he had been recruited to replace struggling Indian veteran Narain Karthikeyan.

The Indian will return to the team for his home race at New Delhi in the last week of October, but after eight races at the back end of the field has been given an extended 'rest' while Red Bull protégé Ricciardo takes his seat.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Atmos

[wackysleet]

Daniel Ricciardo: Improbable dream about to come true

DALE MILLER, The West Australian

July 2, 2011, 7:40 am

A level-headed young racer who sprang from modest Italian roots in Perth's northern suburbs is likely to become one of Australia's richest sportsmen if he can continue the meteoric rise that has landed him a dream Formula 1 berth.

At just 22, Daniel Ricciardo will create history when he becomes the first native West Australian to compete in one of the world's most lucrative championships next Sunday at the British Grand Prix.

His F1 debut at Silverstone will be the culmination of an improbable journey that started at age 9, driving go-karts in Wanneroo and was made possible by his father's punt to send his teenage son overseas in search of an unlikely dream.

*******

Ricciardo was given a perfect 22nd birthday present when it was confirmed that he had been recruited to replace struggling Indian veteran Narain Karthikeyan.

The Indian will return to the team for his home race at New Delhi in the last week of October, but after eight races at the back end of the field has been given an extended 'rest' while Red Bull protégé Ricciardo takes his seat.

Good luck to the young man for securing a temporary drive for HRT, as long as he realises that this is to give him experience and does not hold out hope of a podium finish, as the saying goes, "You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear".

This loaning of their driver by Torro Rosso at least allows them to further assess the improvements their present duo have been showing lately and precludes them having to drop one of them, at least for the time being.

[wackysleet]

I had a really fantastic weekend at Goodwood, such an atmosphere and the cars were really something to behold, old stuff and new alike, god I do miss these events.

[Mosha]

You aren't missing much here lol, weather is chronic or at least down hear. I can count the rubber tapping days this past month on 3 fingers.

[wackysleet]

You aren't missing much here lol, weather is chronic or at least down hear. I can count the rubber tapping days this past month on 3 fingers.

I will be in Ranong next month Steve, do you suggest I bring my wellingtons and raincoat.

[wackysleet]

You aren't missing much here lol, weather is chronic or at least down hear. I can count the rubber tapping days this past month on 3 fingers.

I will be in Ranong next month Steve, do you suggest I bring my wellingtons and raincoat.

[wackysleet]

I have my three day tickets for this weekends F1 at Silverstone but the prices have got out of control now.

In England there is supposed to be extreme hardship at present but all tickets for Sunday have been sold, 120,000 tickets, someone is making some serious money but this will be my last visit as much as I love the place.

Time to swap my allegiance to sports car racing, Le Mans is much more exciting with less egotistical drivers participating and I believe more exciting with less of the bullshit pervading throughout F1.

It's one thing to talk the talk but another thing entirely to walk the walk and with the recent apparent upsurge in reliability it has become too predictable.

[Mosha]

I didn't see you waving

[Atmos]

bugger . . .

LAP 39: In comes Alonso. Dream pit stop. In comes Button. Just as good. But what's this... Button's left a wheel nut in the pit lane... "front left isn't on guys," he says on the team radio. It's actually his front right. BUTTON IS OUT OF THE BRITISH GRAND PRIX.

[F1fanatic]

That really was so unlucky .

Great race though.

I thought the stewards were a little harsh, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

[Mosha]

When I heard Mansell was the driver steward, I said to my mate on FB chat, "Schumi is screwed".

[wackysleet]

I didn't see you waving

Steve.I waved, blew you a kiss and you ignored me so I thought, bugger you too.

[F1fanatic]

When I heard Mansell was the driver steward, I said to my mate on FB chat, "Schumi is screwed".

And you were right....

At least it made Schumi work for his money .

The stewards are all over the place (again) - but I prefer it when a driver gets a penalty if he screws up another driver's race.

Schumi was just unlucky that a) the stewards were harsh and b; a pit-lane drive 'thru wasn't much of a penalty in Silverstone - so a 10 second stop was imposed

Edit - the 'ironic emoticon' was supposed to be point b. Unfortunately it turned into an emoticon.

[Mosha]

Is qualifying on 107?