Obama says US working with Pakistan for release of US diplomat

[flying]

I have found page 9. What's your point?

Obama won't let this die down. If he does not support Davis, the US public will see this as just another sign of weakness in his dealings with a Muslim nation. He can't afford much more bad press on that front if he wants another 4 years to screw up the world.

Point was as I stated....you may or may not find it as well as the whole document interesting....

Same as the other quotes I posted straight from the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations or what the US State Department says regarding the immunity claims of diplomatic and consular officials in the US....I guess you did not find it interesting?

What you say about Obama is 1 possibility...the other being he & the US loses credibility both in & outside of the press.

You & a few others here seem believe the US is correct 100% of the time in every event defensive or offensive.

I tend to believe sh!t happens. When it does I find no shame in admitting it.

I would definitely not think less of my government if they admitted it either.

Two men shot in the back multiple times is pretty much the opposite of a defensive move.

I would love to think like you my government is 100% correct in every action..... But I know they are not....nothing is & I learned that early in life.

[koheesti]

Anyone in the region doubts the two armed Pakistanis were innocent bystanders.

[Ulysses G.]

There are members who support almost every undertaking by the USA and the West and others who condemn them in practically every post and try to justify and make excuses for their enemies' actions.

There seem to be very few regular posters that do not take one side or the other - although some do pretend to be neutral from time to time.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Hawaiian]

There are members who support almost every undertaking by the USA and the West and others who condemn them in practically every post and try to justify and make excuses for their enemies' actions.

There seem to be very few regular posters that do not take one side or the other - although some do pretend to be neutral from time to time.

The U.S. is between a rock and a hard place. They will be condemned no matter what position they take. Pakistan does not have a very good record of conducting unbiased trials. Of course this could be said of other countries, too. The judge and lawyers will pay with their lives, and possibly their families' lives if the "wrong" decision is made. So if your life is on the line, better to sacrifice the life of the defendant than rather your own or your loved ones.

Sad, but true.

[Ulysses G.]

Well said.

[chuckd]

Going by newspaper reports, and anyone has the right to defend themselves, that doesn't make them a murderer or executioner.

Newspapers who repeated just he American embassy statement and yes according to the shooter it was self defense, but not according to eyewitness reports and the ongoing investigation.

A Pakistani police chief has said a US citizen in custody over the deaths of two men in Lahore last month was guilty of "cold-blooded murder".

Lahore city police chief Aslam Tareen told a news conference that one of the men was killed while running away.

...

Mr Tareen told a news conference: "The police investigation and forensic report show it was not self-defence.

"His plea has been rejected by police investigators. He gave no chance to them to survive.

Mr Tareen also said that forensic evidence did not support Mr Davis's claim that one of the motorbike riders had approached his car window, cocked his gun and pointed it at him.

No fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men, he said.

And tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazine of the men's gun, not the chamber.

"It was cold-blooded murder," said Mr Tareen. "Eyewitnesses have told police that he directly shot at them and he kept shooting even when one was running away. It was an intentional murder."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12427518

From your link:

"And tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazine of the men's gun, not the chamber."

Please explain how somebody is supposed to tell if a round has not been chambered when they are facing the barrel of a semi-automatic pistol.

Please show me the part were this report speaks of facing the barrel of a pistol

Will this part qualify?

"Mr Tareen also said that forensic evidence did not support Mr Davis's claim that one of the motorbike riders had approached his car window, cocked his gun and pointed it at him."

How could there possibly be "forensic evidence" to support this claim? The next thing you will claim is the assertion that there was no fingerprint found on the trigger. This proves nothing about the whereabouts of the gun...only the index finger of the person holding the gun.

Since nothing has been proven on either side, Mr. Davis' assertion the gun was pointed at him has to carry the same weight as that of the other side.

Your move.

[SerpentSea]

Anyone in the region doubts the two armed Pakistanis were innocent bystanders.

Anyone in the region doubts that this guy is your regular diplomat ...

[SerpentSea]

There are members who support almost every undertaking by the USA and the West and others who condemn them in practically every post and try to justify and make excuses for their enemies' actions.

There seem to be very few regular posters that do not take one side or the other - although some do pretend to be neutral from time to time.

The U.S. is between a rock and a hard place. They will be condemned no matter what position they take. Pakistan does not have a very good record of conducting unbiased trials. Of course this could be said of other countries, too. The judge and lawyers will pay with their lives, and possibly their families' lives if the "wrong" decision is made. So if your life is on the line, better to sacrifice the life of the defendant than rather your own or your loved ones.

Sad, but true.

It looks like some trigger happy special agent committed cold blooded murder and got caught.

Only a few people who (judging by their comments) seems to hate Muslims and look down Pakistanis do not condemn this.

For the trail and specially the investigation ... what are the chances that there could be some water boarding involved? An alleged murderer and terrorist, how they handle them in Pakistan? Do you know more?

Must have a reason that this 'diplomat' was there almost like undercover with a rented car and fake license plate, armed and probably on some kind of a secret special mission.

[koheesti]

An alleged murderer and terrorist, how they handle them in Pakistan?

They give them medals?

Edited February 18, 2011 by koheesti

[SerpentSea]

An alleged murderer and terrorist, how they handle them in Pakistan?

They give them medals?

Few board members seems to be proud of this guy but i doubt he will get any medals in Pakistan.

I mean like special detention camps where people get tortured by military personnel /secret police and disappear for a few years before they ever face a judge. I think you have heard of such a practice in some other corners of the world.

But so far it looks like a proper legal process.

[Hawaiian]

Nowhere in my post did I imply that the U.S. judicial system is perfect. In fact, I stated

that biased trials also occur elsewhere.

Not sure what actions in Pakistan call for the awarding of medals. For jihadists martyrdom seems to be bestowed in lieu of medals when they slay infidels.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Hawaiian

[flying]

Anyone in the region doubts the two armed Pakistanis were innocent bystanders.

No but the 3rd surely was.....

That aside one of the two was said to be legally armed.Nothing was mention about both having a side arm

Add to that there have been reports now that the two were Pakistani ISI agents tailing this Davis & you have a whole different ball game eh?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ray-davis-shooting-pakistan/story?id=12869411

Have to swap up my analogy a bit..........

An armed Pakistani driving down Pennsylvania avenue in Washington in a non diplomat plated car shoots in the back & kills 2 Americans CIA/FBI agents & another car with Pakistanis tries to come to his aid killing a 3rd American then flees.

The Pakistani arrested later claims diplomatic immunity yet has not proof of entering the US on such a passport..........What would be his fate?

Remember THIS is the law the US follows

The US State Department says regarding the immunity claims of diplomatic and consular officials of foreign governments in the US:

International law, to which the United State is firmly committed, requires that law enforcement authorities of the United States extend certain privileges and immunities to members of Foreign diplomatic missions and consular posts. Most of the privileges and immunities are not absolute and law enforcement officers retain their fundamental responsibility to protect and police the orderly conduct of persons in the United States.

Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a license for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions.

Then The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963. That Obama is touting

That document states, in Article 41:

Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority. Vienna Convention that Obama is touting states ....

Shooting two ISI agents in the back or even two citizens & then claiming self defense? Has to qualify as a grave crime no?

Edited February 18, 2011 by flying

[beechguy]

There are members who support almost every undertaking by the USA and the West and others who condemn them in practically every post and try to justify and make excuses for their enemies' actions.

There seem to be very few regular posters that do not take one side or the other - although some do pretend to be neutral from time to time.

The U.S. is between a rock and a hard place. They will be condemned no matter what position they take. Pakistan does not have a very good record of conducting unbiased trials. Of course this could be said of other countries, too. The judge and lawyers will pay with their lives, and possibly their families' lives if the "wrong" decision is made. So if your life is on the line, better to sacrifice the life of the defendant than rather your own or your loved ones.

Sad, but true.

It looks like some trigger happy special agent committed cold blooded murder and got caught.

Only a few people who (judging by their comments) seems to hate Muslims and look down Pakistanis do not condemn this.

For the trail and specially the investigation ... what are the chances that there could be some water boarding involved? An alleged murderer and terrorist, how they handle them in Pakistan? Do you know more?

Must have a reason that this 'diplomat' was there almost like undercover with a rented car and fake license plate, armed and probably on some kind of a secret special mission.

I have no problems with Muslims or Pakistanis until they start harrassing westerners. If there is any racism involved, perhaps it would be the Pakistanis picking on a white guy. As far as being trigger happy, at least that guy knew how to load his weapon, why is it his fault the Pakistanis were too stupid to load theirs properly.

[flying]

If there is any racism involved, perhaps it would be the Pakistanis picking on a white guy. As far as being trigger happy, at least that guy knew how to load his weapon, why is it his fault the Pakistanis were too stupid to load theirs properly.

Dead men tell no tales....So we do not know if the dead man failed to chamber a round or if he even drew a weapon.

All we have is a man claiming self defense after shooting two in their backs.

[beechguy]

If there is any racism involved, perhaps it would be the Pakistanis picking on a white guy. As far as being trigger happy, at least that guy knew how to load his weapon, why is it his fault the Pakistanis were too stupid to load theirs properly.

Dead men tell no tales....So we do not know if the dead man failed to chamber a round or if he even drew a weapon.

All we have is a man claiming self defense after shooting two in their backs.

Just taking the Pakistani's word for it, apparently some people want to use that as the official version of what happend(See post #26). They reported that the weapon had a loaded magazine inserted, but no round in the chamber so it wasn't possible Davis was threatened. Did the Pakistani draw or display a weapon? Why else would Davis have fired on those two individuals, did he just decide to shoot some Pakistani's for the hell of it? I don't think so, and given how violent some people are in these areas, I don't blame Davis at all for erring on the side of caution when it comes to self defense.

Earlier I posted a link reporting some similar incidents in Nairobi, Kenya, two unarmed women got killed simply because they didn't exit the vehicle fast enough for some car jackers. 4 months prior to that, one of the pilot's I was working with was shot when they stole his vehicle while he was trying to enter his housing compound. They didn't give him much of a chance to exit before they put a bullet through the driver's side window hitting him in the abdomen, fortunately he survived.

Edited February 19, 2011 by beechguy

[Ulysses G.]

They might have been trying to kidnap him for interrogation, so did not intend to kill him immediately. He did not want to get tortured, so defended himself and reported a "robbery" as he could not admit being an intelligence agent.

[flying]

Just taking the Pakistani's word for it, apparently some people want to use that as the official version of what happend. They reported that the weapon had a loaded magazine inserted, but no round in the chamber so it wasn't possible Davis was threatened. Did the Pakistani draw or display a weapon? Why else would Davis have fired on those two individuals, did he just decide to shoot some Pakistani's for the hell of it? I don't think so, and given how violent some people are in these areas, I don't blame Davis at all for erring on the side of caution when it comes to self defense.

Again we have no way of truly knowing either side.

Could be what UG suggested that he did not want to be interrogated.

[beechguy]

Just taking the Pakistani's word for it, apparently some people want to use that as the official version of what happend. They reported that the weapon had a loaded magazine inserted, but no round in the chamber so it wasn't possible Davis was threatened. Did the Pakistani draw or display a weapon? Why else would Davis have fired on those two individuals, did he just decide to shoot some Pakistani's for the hell of it? I don't think so, and given how violent some people are in these areas, I don't blame Davis at all for erring on the side of caution when it comes to self defense.

Again we have no way of truly knowing either side.

Could be what UG suggested that he did not want to be interrogated.

That's possible for more than one reason, westerners started refusing to stop at Saudi Police roadblocks because that is how one man became a hostage and eventually had his head cut off.

As for the immunity portion of this situation, again there may be some other factors involved we don't know about. But, usually contractors aren't immune and it's made very clear at some point. Usually we come under UCMJ and SOFA agreements and that may influence how things are handeled with local authorities.

Edited February 19, 2011 by beechguy

[chuckd]

Just taking the Pakistani's word for it, apparently some people want to use that as the official version of what happend. They reported that the weapon had a loaded magazine inserted, but no round in the chamber so it wasn't possible Davis was threatened. Did the Pakistani draw or display a weapon? Why else would Davis have fired on those two individuals, did he just decide to shoot some Pakistani's for the hell of it? I don't think so, and given how violent some people are in these areas, I don't blame Davis at all for erring on the side of caution when it comes to self defense.

Again we have no way of truly knowing either side.

Could be what UG suggested that he did not want to be interrogated.

That's possible for more than one reason, westerners started refusing to stop at Saudi Police Roadblocks because that is how one man became a hostage and eventually had his head cut off.

What Beechguy says is absolutely true. I told my employees not to stop if there was only ONE police car. Two or more we hoped they were actually police.

I also personally informed the local police chief, the secret police commander and the local military intelligence directorate of my instructions. Since all these people knew of one of my employees that was murdered by Al-Qaeda, they agreed with my actions.

Here's a link for the killing Beechguy mentioned: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/19/world/main624915.shtml

As the article states, they found his body outside Riyadh. They located his head some months later in the freezer section of a refrigerator in a house occupied by Al-Qaeda militants AND THEIR FAMILIES!

...and you people wonder how those of us that have lived and worked there can take the attitude that perhaps, just perhaps, Davis might have considered himself under dire threat in Pakistan when he took the actions he did?

Somewhere in this thread I asked the question...I wonder if Daniel Pearl's widow wishes her husband had been armed when he went to the meeting?

[flying]

U.S. officials: Raymond Davis, accused in Pakistan shootings, worked for CIA

President Obama and other senior administration officials have repeatedly described Davis as a diplomat who was assigned to the U.S. consulate in Lahore, and said he is entitled to immunity from prosecution in Pakistan.

But in fact Davis has spent much of the past two years working as part of a group of covert CIA operatives, whose mission appears to have centered on conducting surveillance of militant groups in large cities including Lahore.

At the time of his arrest, Davis was based at a house with five other CIA contractors as well as an agency employee, a U.S. official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

The official said the impact of the disclosure that Davis is a CIA employee "will be serious."

"I think it's going to make it a hell of a lot harder to get him out," said the official. "I think ISI knows what this guy is, but I think this is just going to inflame the Pakistanis."

The ISI is the acronym for Pakistan's powerful spy service, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate.

The Washington Post learned of Davis's CIA affiliation after his arrest, but agreed not to publish the information at the request of senior U.S. intelligence officials, who cited concern for Davis's safety if his true employment status were disclosed.

Those officials withdrew the request not to publish on Monday after other news organizations identified Davis as a CIA employee, and after U.S. officials made a final attempt to prevail upon Pakistan's government to release Davis or move him to a safer facility.

Full article at Link

Edited February 21, 2011 by flying

[LaoPo]

American Held in Pakistan Shootings Worked With the C.I.A.

Raymond A. Davis, center, is escorted to court by Pakistani security official in Lahore, Pakistan on Jan. 28, 2011.

This article was written by Mark Mazzetti, Ashley Parker, Jane Perlez and Eric Schmitt.

WASHINGTON — The American arrested in Pakistan after shooting two men at a crowded traffic stop was part of a covert, C.I.A.-led team of operatives conducting surveillance on militant groups deep inside the country, according to American government officials. Working from a safe house in the eastern city of Lahore, the detained American contractor, Raymond A. Davis, a retired Special Forces soldier, carried out scouting and other reconnaissance missions as a security officer for Central Intelligence Agency case officers and technical experts conducting surveillance operations, the officials said.

Mr. Davis's arrest and detention, which came after what American officials have described as a botched robbery attempt, has inadvertently pulled back the curtain on a web of covert American operations inside Pakistan, part of a secret war run by the C.I.A. It has exacerbated already frayed relations between the American intelligence agency and its Pakistani counterpart, created a political dilemma for the weak, pro-American Pakistani government, and further threatened the stability of the country, which has the world's fastest growing nuclear arsenal.

Story:

http://www.nytimes.c...tml?_r=1&emc=na

LaoPo

[flying]

]American Held in Pakistan Shootings Worked With the C.I.A.

http://www.nytimes.c...tml?_r=1&emc=na

LaoPo

Yes it is all over the news here in the USA

Like I said earlier they (the US govt.) should have known when to hold & when to fold.

Instead Mr Obama choose to perjure himself & the USA on worldwide TV.

They could have instead struck a deal to exchange a political prisoner like Dr. Aafia Siddiqui

http://rt.com/usa/news/siddiqui-political-human-rights/

In exchange for this spook Davis.....Although I would have rather they throw him under the bus same as his back up folks did when they ran away from the scene leaving him.

Instead the US government had to go with the "He is a Diplomat" BS

Now look.............

Now it comes out he is an ex-Blackwater employee & we all know their track record which drove Blackwater to change its name to XE Services LLC...A bunch of loose cannons on the tax payers dollar

[beechguy]

]American Held in Pakistan Shootings Worked With the C.I.A.

http://www.nytimes.c...tml?_r=1&emc=na

LaoPo

Yes it is all over the news here in the USA

Like I said earlier they (the US govt.) should have known when to hold & when to fold.

Instead Mr Obama choose to perjure himself & the USA on worldwide TV.

They could have instead struck a deal to exchange a political prisoner like Dr. Aafia Siddiqui

http://rt.com/usa/ne...l-human-rights/

In exchange for this spook Davis.....Although I would have rather they throw him under the bus same as his back up folks did when they ran away from the scene leaving him.

Instead the US government had to go with the "He is a Diplomat" BS

Now look.............

Now it comes out he is an ex-Blackwater employee & we all know their track record which drove Blackwater to change its name to XE Services LLC...A bunch of loose cannons on the tax payers dollar

Given the track record of their security and military people working with the Taliban, it still doesn't mean the incident wasn't self defense. Personally, I would rather we take all of our people out of Pakistan and move them on the Afghanistan side, then suspend all aid. It's more diffcult to support the Taliban when they're digging out from under an earthquake or treading water from a flood.

[chuckd]

I really don't think this surprises any of us that have worked overseas and have dealt with a US Embassy.

I would have been surprised if he wasn't CIA/DEA/NSA/FBI. I expect he was an electronic snoop trying to locate the bad guys that want to kill Westerners. He probably knows quite a bit of classified information and will likely spill his guts to the ISI. They go beyond waterboarding.

But the question remains...did he have diplomatic immunity?

[flying]

I really don't think this surprises any of us that have worked overseas and have dealt with a US Embassy.

I would have been surprised if he wasn't CIA/DEA/NSA/FBI. I expect he was an electronic snoop trying to locate the bad guys that want to kill Westerners. He probably knows quite a bit of classified information and will likely spill his guts to the ISI. They go beyond waterboarding.

But the question remains...did he have diplomatic immunity?

I dont think it surprises anyone anywhere actually

As for him being CIA.....Well that is the new...Given he was only a short time ago employed by Blackwater

I would tend to *guess* he is not even CIA but just a contractor.

Diplomatic Immunity?.....I think not...But they will try won't they?

Know when to hold & when to fold

[flying]

Given the track record of their security and military people working with the Taliban, it still doesn't mean the incident wasn't self defense. Personally, I would rather we take all of our people out of Pakistan and move them on the Afghanistan side, then suspend all aid. It's more diffcult to support the Taliban when they're digging out from under an earthquake or treading water from a flood.

Well I would raise that a notch & pull our sons & daughters all the way back to the USA where they belong. Not in Afghanistan-Pakistahn chasing some ghost called Bin Laden

As for aid.........charity begins at home....But after that aid for things like earthquakes & floods & loss of civilian life have no place being discussed as payback for any military actions or non-actions on either side.

We were once better than that...hopefully the majority still are

Edited February 22, 2011 by flying

[beechguy]

Given the track record of their security and military people working with the Taliban, it still doesn't mean the incident wasn't self defense. Personally, I would rather we take all of our people out of Pakistan and move them on the Afghanistan side, then suspend all aid. It's more diffcult to support the Taliban when they're digging out from under an earthquake or treading water from a flood.

Well I would raise that a notch & pull our sons & daughters all the way back to the USA where they belong. Not in Afghanistan-Pakistahn chasing some ghost called Bin Laden

As for aid.........charity begins at home....But after that aid for things like earthquakes & floods & loss of civilian life have no place being discussed as payback for any military actions or non-actions on either side.

We were once better than that...hopefully the majority still are

True, charity does begin at home, and considering the domestic situation, there is a "place" to discuss all government spending and policies. Considering the corruption and incompetence in Pakistan, our money can be better spent elsewhere.

[Hawaiian]

[quote name='beechguy'

Given the track record of their security and military people working with the Taliban, it still doesn't mean the incident wasn't self defense. Personally, I would rather we take all of our people out of Pakistan and move them on the Afghanistan side, then suspend all aid. It's more diffcult to support the Taliban when they're digging out from under an earthquake or treading water from a flood.

Because Pakistan continues to add to its nuclear arsenal, the U.S. feels that it is important to have a presence there which includes covert activities. Military aid is the price we pay for this. However, I think that this incident will eventually play itself out and the cat and mouse game will go on.

As far as Afghanistan goes, the U.S. would have been better off with using hired guns instead of involving the U.N. If things don't go right it is easier to pull the plug by just cutting off funding and denying everything. According to Wikileaks deceit seems to be the name of the game. Even when the truth is told, few people believe it anyway.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Hawaiian

[beechguy]

Hawaiian, I understand your point, but up to this point we haven't been much of a deterrent when it comes to Pakistan and the nuclear weapons. And, some people seem quite enthusiatic for the Chinese or maybe the Indians to become world leaders. Very well, let them handle it and see if the world becomes a better place.

[Hawaiian]

Hawaiian, I understand your point, but up to this point we haven't been much of a deterrent when it comes to Pakistan and the nuclear weapons. And, some people seem quite enthusiatic for the Chinese or maybe the Indians to become world leaders. Very well, let them handle it and see if the world becomes a better place.

It's more of keeping tabs on the security of their weaponry than trying to stop them from making more. Evidently, the U.S. did not deter Pakistan from aiding Iran's nuclear program. I am quite sure that there would be direct intervention if the U.S. discovered that a terrorist group had gained possession of nuclear material.

India and China are having growing pains of their own. Feeding a billion plus people is becoming more challenging every day. Besides daily necessities these growing populations are demanding more and more of what others already have. It will be interesting to see how they will handle the coming food and energy shortages and the accompanying unrest.

I agree with you that America needs to put America first. America is not immune to the unrest and anarchy that is happening elsewhere.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Hawaiian