Falang, 2Nd Class Citizens?

[Timthai]

Thailand is ethnocentric. Not as bad as Japan or Korea but still ethnocentric. Most foreigners come here wearing their culture like a turtle wears a shell some even come from other countries like Australia and the US to impose their values on Thai society in a legal sense and arrest Thais for violating Australian and American laws. NGO's and do gooder governments just can't seem to leave Thailand alone. Thailand deported hundreds of Hmong people back to Laos because they remembered when the Hmong were responsible for heroin smuggling and production. The US and all the other Western nations including the UN went ballistic. Thailand didn't care. The same with the recent refugees sent out to sea to die. There is good and bad in the country. It would be nice to only talk about the good and accept the good and somehow change the Thais to eliminate the bad and to conform to western culture.

Even rich educated Thais believe in ghosts and make offerings to inanimate objects. Is it silly? It is part of Thailand. If you are sick in a government hospital the Thai person will be treated before the Falang given equal sickness. In some cases, if you make it on the inside of a Thai family or government institution you will be treated better than Thai people and given a god like status.

For example if you learn how to dance Thai dances and do so at a country concert you will be treated like a rock star. If you do something out of character, like being honest in a business transaction the Thai person will never forget.

The ethnocentrism works both ways. Thais don't expect loyalty or heroism from non Thais. If you show Thai people loyalty and or heroism they will grant you a larger status than a Thai person.

The door swings both ways. It is very difficult for most western people to understand the nuances of Thai culture when they conflict with long held western belief systems.

Totally agree.

We will obviously be judged by Thai's we don't know on the basis of their general experience and impressions of the worst and ugliest foreign visitors here. (and that's not good, in anyones eyes)... on the other hand, we are judged by the Thai's we know on the basis of who we are. If you become part of a community, you will be respected as part of that community based on your contribution.

During the recent floods, I worked longer and harder than the Thai men to build a levy wall in my girlfriend's village near Nakhon Sawan. I had been regularly visiting the village for almost 2 years, and always got that skeptical stare and smile; but I have no doubt about my status in that community now, because I contributed. I do go to Temple, and I do give money, because it's expected as being part of a community in Thailand. I enjoy and appreciate the acceptance that brings. It doesn't mean I'm trying to be Thai, just part of a community.

Mostly when people complain about migrants in their own country, it's generally because they refuse to integrate. "If their own country is so bad, and they want to live here, they should live here under our rules and standards". Where's the difference?

[bkkjames]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

That's a rolling rrrrr JT - perhaps your teacher had false teeth or something?

[DP25]

Have you EVER heard a Thai say the word FARANG? No I didn't think so.

Yes, most of them

[samran]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

It isn't Hick Thai. For those who insist on it, it is anally retentive Thai. Inability to roll an 'ร' does not make one trailer park trash.

Telling the difference between a bar girl and someone speaking bog standard middle class 'central' Thai which is used in most forms of simple and civil conversation (let alone with those in polite formal settings) is easy enough, and it very rarely has to do with one's ability to roll the ร.

Edited February 21, 2011 by samran

[inthepink]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Edited February 21, 2011 by inthepink

[bkkjames]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Hang on - I think you should PM Tod Daniels and others of his ilk (KIss Fans) for an objective opinion..

Now I have heard the term FARANG /FALANG spoken by people from far and wide and of differing class - rich and poor,, and came to this conclusion. Rarely if ever is it spoken to you (your face or behind your back) in a nice way. Perhaps it's just me.

[justaphase]

If you look through Thai eye's most of us are different to them,

We don't go to the temple and give money,

We don't believe in superstitions,

We don't speak the local language very well,

We complain about how Thai people do things,

We throw money around and take there women,

and the list goes on.

If the shoe was on the other foot most of us would not be so tolerant.

Here here..!!

And most importantly we wave our arms around, raise our voices and use lots of body language and eye contact. Three things that the Thai people really don't like to see or do.

Why are people here? For the girls..? Then what do you expect them to think..?

Rich, fair skinned ferrang paying money to sleep with poor, uneducated prostitutes. You think they think highly of people who do that.

The majority of people who come here have NO idea about the people and the country.

[inthepink]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Hang on - I think you should PM Tod Daniels and others of his ilk (KIss Fans) for an objective opinion..

Now I have heard the term FARANG /FALANG spoken by people from far and wide and of differing class - rich and poor,, and came to this conclusion. Rarely if ever is it spoken to you (your face or behind your back) in a nice way. Perhaps it's just me.

I was replying to a comment on the pronunciation of the word, not its usage, although I must admit that I fail to see what it has to do with the topic of this thread.

I have never been addressed as "farang" by a Thai person. I would definitely consider it offensive when used in that manner. However, if they are talking about "farang" in a generalised way then I suppose it's no more offensive than the way people talk about Asians in the West, although I don't particularly like being on the receiving end of such generalisations - who does?

[pjclark1]

oh, boo hoo. What is your point - that you are somehow held down and repressed by this term?

My point is black people get insulted if you call them ni$er.

So should a white person be any less insulted when someone calls them Fa##ng?

I guess maybe we should just compromise and call them sl**e

Edited February 21, 2011 by pjclark1

[MJP]

oh, boo hoo. What is your point - that you are somehow held down and repressed by this term?

My point is black people get insulted if you call them ni$er.

So should a white person be any less insulted when someone calls them Fa##ang?

I guess maybe we should just compromise and call them sl**e

I'm really struggling with that last one.

[justaphase]

oh, boo hoo. What is your point - that you are somehow held down and repressed by this term?

My point is black people get insulted if you call them ni$er.

So should a white person be any less insulted when someone calls them Fa##ang?

I guess maybe we should just compromise and call them sl**e

I'm really struggling with that last one.

Me too.. can we have another letter..?

[bermondburi]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Hang on - I think you should PM Tod Daniels and others of his ilk (KIss Fans) for an objective opinion..

Now I have heard the term FARANG /FALANG spoken by people from far and wide and of differing class - rich and poor,, and came to this conclusion. Rarely if ever is it spoken to you (your face or behind your back) in a nice way. Perhaps it's just me.

Perhaps it is just you !

[bermondburi]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Hang on - I think you should PM Tod Daniels and others of his ilk (KIss Fans) for an objective opinion..

Now I have heard the term FARANG /FALANG spoken by people from far and wide and of differing class - rich and poor,, and came to this conclusion. Rarely if ever is it spoken to you (your face or behind your back) in a nice way. Perhaps it's just me.

I was replying to a comment on the pronunciation of the word, not its usage, although I must admit that I fail to see what it has to do with the topic of this thread.

I have never been addressed as "farang" by a Thai person. I would definitely consider it offensive when used in that manner. However, if they are talking about "farang" in a generalised way then I suppose it's no more offensive than the way people talk about Asians in the West, although I don't particularly like being on the receiving end of such generalisations - who does?

I just do not believe that there is someone in Thailand who has never been addressed as " farang ". It might be possible of course but IMO highly unlikely.

[bkkjames]

My Thai teacher taught me to say farang with an R and she was horrified that any farang should ever pronounce it falang. Falang is the hick pronunciation, don't delude yourself. If you want to speak bargirl Thai, go ahead, you baa falang!

This is complete and utter nonsense. Unfortunately I seem to recall that you blocked me when you had a hissy fit because I disagreed with you over something else a few months ago though, so I won't be able to enlighten you on this point.

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

Haing said that, Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

Hang on - I think you should PM Tod Daniels and others of his ilk (KIss Fans) for an objective opinion..

Now I have heard the term FARANG /FALANG spoken by people from far and wide and of differing class - rich and poor,, and came to this conclusion. Rarely if ever is it spoken to you (your face or behind your back) in a nice way. Perhaps it's just me.

Perhaps it is just you !

Rhetorical question mate - stick to the strawberries silly Falang!

[bermondburi]

oh, boo hoo. What is your point - that you are somehow held down and repressed by this term?

My point is black people get insulted if you call them ni$er.

So should a white person be any less insulted when someone calls them Fa##ng?

I guess maybe we should just compromise and call them sl**e

the difference being that being called a nigger has got connotations about slavery whereas being called a ferrang obviously doesn't.

[bermondburi]

Rhetorical question mate - stick to the strawberries silly Falang!

shouldn't that be spelt with an ' r '.

As for the strawberries, don't worry, business is booming !

[DP25]

oh, boo hoo. What is your point - that you are somehow held down and repressed by this term?

My point is black people get insulted if you call them ni$er.

So should a white person be any less insulted when someone calls them Fa##ang?

I guess maybe we should just compromise and call them sl**e

I'm really struggling with that last one.

Me too.. can we have another letter..?

Slope? Ridiculous comparison, and the first one is just stupid.

[TimTang]

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

...Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

I agree with you on the mis-transliteration done by Thais. A couple examples would be "Singha" beer and "Suvarnabhumi" airport. If you pronounce these words as they are written in English they would be completely wrong in Thai. The "ha" at the end of "Singha" is silent but there is no way for an English speaking person to be aware of that unless they've been informed by someone knowledgeable in the language, still, most foreigners pronounce it that way. "Suvarnabhumi" is actually pronounced "su-waan-na-poom", again you would never know unless you were told. There is no equivalent consonant in the Thai language that sounds like "V" yet Thais always use it when a "W" would be more appropriate.

I don't agree with you when it comes to the "R" sound. There is no equivalent consonant in the Thai language. When I say "R" I mean the hard "R" prevalent in North America, Ireland, and Scotland. In formal Thai, which is seldom used, they roll the "R". If you look at it physically, it involves quickly flapping the end of the tongue on the roof of your mouth directly behind the upper front teeth. If you freeze this action you end up with and "L", which is what 99% of Thais ultimately use because it's easier, plus most Thais would think you were posh and pretentious rolling the "R". To pronounce a hard English "R" you begin with an "AHHH", then simultaneously raise your jaw slightly and pull your tongue to the back of your mouth. As you can see these two physical scenarios result in two totally different sounds. Apart from Thais that have been born or educated overseas I have never heard a Thai say an "R". I've even tried teaching it to a few and they end up tongue-tied and just give up. I find it hard to believe that you would ever hear a Thai say "FA-RANG" (as in - he RANG the bell). I haven't had my ears checked for years but when I hear a Thai say this word, to me it sounds like "FA-LUNG" (as in I have cancer in my left LUNG). Maybe I do need a hearing test!

[inthepink]

Pronouncing ร as an L sound instead of a rolling R is something that Thai people from all classes do on a regular basis and is certainly not limited to country folk. Therefore, I don't believe a Thai person (teacher or otherwise) would ever be "horrified" by a Westerner who adopted a similar approach.

...Tim Tang is also misinformed. Some Thai people will pronounce the R sound properly, and some will do it both ways, depending on who they are talking to, and how they feel at that particular moment. It is not foreigners who have mis-transliterated the langauge either, it is the Thais themselves. Of course nobody pronounces Thong Lo with a "th" sound, the h is meant to denote that it is an aspirated t sound rather than an unaspirated one, i.e. ต

I agree with you on the mis-transliteration done by Thais. A couple examples would be "Singha" beer and "Suvarnabhumi" airport. If you pronounce these words as they are written in English they would be completely wrong in Thai. The "ha" at the end of "Singha" is silent but there is no way for an English speaking person to be aware of that unless they've been informed by someone knowledgeable in the language, still, most foreigners pronounce it that way. "Suvarnabhumi" is actually pronounced "su-waan-na-poom", again you would never know unless you were told. There is no equivalent consonant in the Thai language that sounds like "V" yet Thais always use it when a "W" would be more appropriate.

I don't agree with you when it comes to the "R" sound. There is no equivalent consonant in the Thai language. When I say "R" I mean the hard "R" prevalent in North America, Ireland, and Scotland. In formal Thai, which is seldom used, they roll the "R". If you look at it physically, it involves quickly flapping the end of the tongue on the roof of your mouth directly behind the upper front teeth. If you freeze this action you end up with and "L", which is what 99% of Thais ultimately use because it's easier, plus most Thais would think you were posh and pretentious rolling the "R". To pronounce a hard English "R" you begin with an "AHHH", then simultaneously raise your jaw slightly and pull your tongue to the back of your mouth. As you can see these two physical scenarios result in two totally different sounds. Apart from Thais that have been born or educated overseas I have never heard a Thai say an "R". I've even tried teaching it to a few and they end up tongue-tied and just give up. I find it hard to believe that you would ever hear a Thai say "FA-RANG" (as in - he RANG the bell). I haven't had my ears checked for years but when I hear a Thai say this word, to me it sounds like "FA-LUNG" (as in I have cancer in my left LUNG). Maybe I do need a hearing test!

I did specify the "rolling r" in my post. I wouldn't expect Thai people to pronounce thai words using an English R of course. From my experience, they would only think you were overdoing it if you were to elongate your rolling Rs - in the Thai language it normally only lasts for a couple of vibrations if you see what I mean (especially in a word like farang where it appears in the middle), not normally as long as a *Scottish rolled R (unless you are a radio announcer). The use of V instead of W in translitearions is (in my opinion) simply mis-applied logic. Becaused they don't have a V sound they use ว (equivalent to an English W sound as I am sure you are aware) when they are transliterating from English to Thai and therefore when transliterating Thai words with a ว to English they seem to have adopted the practice of using a V instead of a W. That's the only logical explanation I can think of anyway.

Some Thai people do pronounce a "ha" in Singha, even though I agree they shouldn't as it has a ตัวการันต์ over the ห letter. Even some members of the family that own the brewery do this; maybe they are trying to go for an international feel.

Anyway, we are so far away from the topic of whether or not Westerners are 2nd class citizens that I feel we should both be banned for six months and flogged with a long, whippy cane.

* I'm a bit confused by your statement that North American people and the Irish and Scottish use what you are calling a hard R. Scottish people use a rolling R, which to my ear is the same as that used in Thai.

Edited February 21, 2011 by inthepink

[IanForbes]

Does anyone here know the meaning of the term... anal retentive? It fits perfectly into this conversation.

I sat on a ferry to Koh Samui one day and listened to 3 tourists talking no more than 2 meters away. It wasn't until we almost reached the island that I realized they were English. It turns out they were Cockney Brits from London. You can't get any more English than having been born from white parents living in London. But, not one of the blokes could be understood... unless of course you were ALSO a Brit from that part of London. Now, compare that to this conversation about the so called mispronunciation of the word "farang" as being "falong" and it explains clearly the meaning of the term... anal retentive.

A black, African American can say his friend (white or black) "Hey niggah" and it's used in endearing terms. But, if some white stranger says the same thing it is a racial slur.

That is no different than hearing a Thai call a white person a farang... or more appropriately... falong. I listen to Thais all the time and can't recall the last time I hear "farang". But, I hear "falong" all the time, and it comes from school kids, teachers, tuk tuk drivers, and every other class of Thai. I can't believe that they are ALL using the term as a slur. Which brings me back to the anal retentive people here.

[inthepink]

Does anyone here know the meaning of the term... anal retentive? It fits perfectly into this conversation.

I sat on a ferry to Koh Samui one day and listened to 3 tourists talking no more than 2 meters away. It wasn't until we almost reached the island that I realized they were English. It turns out they were Cockney Brits from London. You can't get any more English than having been born from white parents living in London. But, not one of the blokes could be understood... unless of course you were ALSO a Brit from that part of London. Now, compare that to this conversation about the so called mispronunciation of the word "farang" as being "falong" and it explains clearly the meaning of the term... anal retentive.

A black, African American can say his friend (white or black) "Hey niggah" and it's used in endearing terms. But, if some white stranger says the same thing it is a racial slur.

That is no different than hearing a Thai call a white person a farang... or more appropriately... falong. I listen to Thais all the time and can't recall the last time I hear "farang". But, I hear "falong" all the time, and it comes from school kids, teachers, tuk tuk drivers, and every other class of Thai. I can't believe that they are ALL using the term as a slur. Which brings me back to the anal retentive people here.

Sorry but the first part of your post is completely irrelevant. Central Thai does not offer the latitude afforded to English speakers when it comes to vowel pronunciation and consonants are pretty fixed too. You would never encounter the wide differences in pronunciation in Thailand that you do in the UK and other countries. Whether you think I am anal-retentive or not is besides the point. A reasonable grasp of the Thai language would be enough for anybody to understand that it cannot be compared to English in this respect.

Farang, farung, farong, falang, falung, falong...It's certainly pointless arguing over the correct transliteration as there is no way to accurately reflect Thai sounds with the Latin / Roman alphabet. The "a" sounds in the word are both the same for a start, so if you want to substitue a U or an O for the As then you should do it for both letters. It is roughly between an A and a U really....certainly not an O...not to most peoples ears anyway.

Edited February 21, 2011 by inthepink

[TimTang]

...I have never been addressed as "farang" by a Thai person. I would definitely consider it offensive when used in that manner. However, if they are talking about "farang" in a generalised way then I suppose it's no more offensive than the way people talk about Asians in the West, although I don't particularly like being on the receiving end of such generalisations - who does?

I don't understand why you would be offended because the word is the equivalent to saying Caucasian in English. Historically the first Caucasians the Thais encountered were the French. The word farang, falang, or falung (which ever turns your crank) was just the best attempt the Thais, at that time, could come up with trying to say "Francaise", which is a real tongue-twister for a Thai.

I can understand how it can be used in anger, usually accompanied with stupid, smelly, fat, ugly, etc. Then I would feel offended.

Gaijin is the Japanese equivalent meaning "non-Japanese", or "alien". Originally it was not meant to be offensive but now it has become politically incorrect to use.

The common Cantonese slang term for foreigners is Gweilo, which is usually translated to mean "Foreign devil". Now THAT I might take offence to.

[MJP]

I figured out the rolling 'r' the other day. That 'thrrrrrr' sound, tip of the tongue, as in Kapkonkrrrrrrrrrrrap!

[inthepink]

...I have never been addressed as "farang" by a Thai person. I would definitely consider it offensive when used in that manner. However, if they are talking about "farang" in a generalised way then I suppose it's no more offensive than the way people talk about Asians in the West, although I don't particularly like being on the receiving end of such generalisations - who does?

I don't understand why you would be offended because the word is the equivalent to saying Caucasian in English. Historically the first Caucasians the Thais encountered were the French. The word farang, falang, or falung (which ever turns your crank) was just the best attempt the Thais, at that time, could come up with trying to say "Francaise", which is a real tongue-twister for a Thai.

I can understand how it can be used in anger, usually accompanied with stupid, smelly, fat, ugly, etc. Then I would feel offended.

Gaijin is the Japanese equivalent meaning "non-Japanese", or "alien". Originally it was not meant to be offensive but now it has become politically incorrect to use.

The common Cantonese slang term for foreigners is Gweilo, which is usually translated to mean "Foreign devil". Now THAT I might take offence to.

So, you would be happy if somebody in the West came up to you and said, "Hey, Caucasian"?

In answer to the other person who said i must be the only Westerner who has never been addressed as farang, I cannot think of a single instance when it would be an appropriate way to address somebody...maybe we are all talking at cross purposes here and you are saying that they might refer to me as a farang in conversation, rather than address me as such?

[IanForbes]

Sorry but the first part of your post is completely irrelevant. Central Thai does not offer the latitude afforded to English speakers when it comes to vowel pronunciation and consonants are pretty fixed too. You would never encounter the wide differences in pronunciation in Thailand that you do in the UK and other countries. Whether you think I am anal-retentive or not is besides the point. A reasonable grasp of the Thai language would be enough for anybody to understand that it cannot be compared to English in this respect.

Farang, farung, farong, falang, falung, falong...It's certainly pointless arguing over the correct transliteration as there is no way to accurately reflect Thai sounds with the Latin / Roman alphabet. The "a" sounds in the word are both the same for a start, so if you want to substitue a U or an O for the As then you should do it for both letters. It is roughly between an A and a U really....certainly not an O...not to most peoples ears anyway.

I needn't say any more about anal retentive then. You've already demonstrated it succinctly enough. :lol:

[inthepink]

Sorry but the first part of your post is completely irrelevant. Central Thai does not offer the latitude afforded to English speakers when it comes to vowel pronunciation and consonants are pretty fixed too. You would never encounter the wide differences in pronunciation in Thailand that you do in the UK and other countries. Whether you think I am anal-retentive or not is besides the point. A reasonable grasp of the Thai language would be enough for anybody to understand that it cannot be compared to English in this respect.

Farang, farung, farong, falang, falung, falong...It's certainly pointless arguing over the correct transliteration as there is no way to accurately reflect Thai sounds with the Latin / Roman alphabet. The "a" sounds in the word are both the same for a start, so if you want to substitue a U or an O for the As then you should do it for both letters. It is roughly between an A and a U really....certainly not an O...not to most peoples ears anyway.

I needn't say any more about anal retentive then. You've already demonstrated it succinctly enough. :lol:

I think you have ably demonstrated that you have a very limited knowledge of the Thai language so there's really no point discussing it with you. If you've nothing to add apart from repeating your previous insult, as if you somehow think that name calling proves your point, then why bother posting at all? It only makes you look as if your debating skills were honed in the school playground and have never been improved upon since.

[DP25]

Historically the first Caucasians the Thais encountered were the French. The word farang, falang, or falung (which ever turns your crank) was just the best attempt the Thais, at that time, could come up with trying to say "Francaise", which is a real tongue-twister for a Thai.

The first westerners in Thailand were the Portuguese. Farang is a corruption of the word 'Frank' from the time of the Crusades. The word become a standard term for all westerners and spread from the middle east across India to south east Asia, and some form is still used in all those countries today as a standard term for Europeans. That's why you might be called a ferengi in India or a barang in Cambodia, the word spread from the holy land east to Asia

[TimTang]

* I'm a bit confused by your statement that North American people and the Irish and Scottish use what you are calling a hard R. Scottish people use a rolling R, which to my ear is the same as that used in Thai.[/size]

Thanks for your replies, you obviously know a lot more about the Thai language than I do. I hope I don't come across as augmentative, but these are just some of my observations that I've had over the years. I'm just curious as to why there is so much discrepancy in the translation of Thai. When I first came to Thailand I bought 2 books for learning Thai. One was written by and Aussi and the other by an Englishman. It didn't take long to realize that the Thais had no idea what I was talking about. The problem was both books superimposed their own accent on top of Thai pronunciation. For example: Pornthip for Pawn-tip, sorn for sawn, etc. It became apparent that the best way to learn Thai is to learn the alphabet and read it the way it's written in Thai, which was much more successful once you identify the silent letters.

Sorry about the Scottish reference; that was probably a bad example. I believe (and I could be wrong) the the hard "R's" in North America can be attributed to the Irish; or maybe it was the Pirates "ARRRRR laddy, have you everrr been to sea?". The English and the Aussi's have relatively soft "R's". The English seem to add an "R" in words where they don't occur, like soar for saw, or loar for law; but it's their language so I have no right to criticize. Listen to the Beatles; "I SOAR a film today oh boy".

Anyway...I apologize for going off-topic to those that I've annoyed; I'll try to keep it to a minimum. I find the whole language thing interesting, but I can appreciate others don't share that interest.

Edited February 21, 2011 by TimTang

[inthepink]

* I'm a bit confused by your statement that North American people and the Irish and Scottish use what you are calling a hard R. Scottish people use a rolling R, which to my ear is the same as that used in Thai.[/size]

Thanks for your replies, you obviously know a lot more about the Thai language than I do. I hope I don't come across as augmentative, but these are just some of my observations that I've had over the years. I'm just curious as to why there is so much discrepancy in the translation of Thai. When I first came to Thailand I bought 2 books for learning Thai. One was written by and Aussi and the other by an Englishman. It didn't take long to realize that the Thais had no idea what I was talking about. The problem was both books superimposed their own accent on top of Thai pronunciation. For example: Pornthip for Pawn-tip, sorn for sawn, etc. It became apparent that the best way to learn Thai is to learn the alphabet and read it the way it's written in Thai, which was much more successful once you identify the silent letters.

Sorry about the Scottish reference; that was probably a bad example. I believe (and I could be wrong) the the hard "R's" in North America can be attributed to the Irish; or maybe it was the Pirates "ARRRRR laddy, have you everrr been to sea?". The English and the Aussi's have relatively soft "R's". The English seem to add an "R" in words where they don't occur, like soar for saw, or loar for law; but it's their language so I have no right to criticize. Listen to the Beatles; "I SOAR a film today oh boy".

Anyway...I apologize for going off-topic to those that I've annoyed; I'll try to keep it to a minimum. I find the whole language thing interesting, but I can appreciate others don't share that interest.

Difficult to say who knows what on a forum, especially as we are using the Latin alphabet to try and convey our ideas on pronunciation. I can't comment on British pronuncaition because I'm from London so I don't find it strange in the least. I wouldn't worry too much about annoying other people, I think that's the prime motivation behind many of the posts on here.

Edited February 21, 2011 by inthepink

[TimTang]

Historically the first Caucasians the Thais encountered were the French. The word farang, falang, or falung (which ever turns your crank) was just the best attempt the Thais, at that time, could come up with trying to say "Francaise", which is a real tongue-twister for a Thai.

The first westerners in Thailand were the Portuguese. Farang is a corruption of the word 'Frank' from the time of the Crusades. The word become a standard term for all westerners and spread from the middle east across India to south east Asia, and some form is still used in all those countries today as a standard term for Europeans. That's why you might be called a ferengi in India or a barang in Cambodia, the word spread from the holy land east to Asia

I guess I stand corrected. I got the French story from a on-line Thai language learning site; I don't know where they got their info from. Actually it does make more sense. Thais have difficulty with compound consonants used in English, for example the word "smart" is split into "sa-mart", so "frank" would become "fa-rank". Given the fact that Thais almost never end a word with a consonant (mew for milk) it's not a far stretch that it would become "fa-rang". Also, in French rang (like tank) would be more like rong or rung, and I don't dare get into the "R" thing. That scenario seems to more believable.