Falang, 2Nd Class Citizens?

[canuckamuck]

A lot of people round here think it's smart to use a Thai word to describe themselves.

Most are too ignorant to recognize it as an insult.

My girlfriends mother thought it was smart to refer to me as "the farang' in front of me, when talking to her daughter

So I thought it was smart to refer to her a "mare mung" in front of her, when talking to my girlfriend

The relationship didn't last.

What, so when my wife refers to her children as luk farang, she is actually insulting them.

I am so disappointed in her now.

Edited February 18, 2011 by canuckamuck

[Ulysses G.]

A lot of non Thais here don't seem to mind the very derogative slur the Thais use to describe westerners and have gone so far over to the Thai side that they themselves use this degrading word to describe themselves, however they spell it.

They must have no need of brown shoe polish.

IMHO, foreigners who have convinced themselves that "farang" is a slur need some intensive therapy.

[pjclark1]

What, so when my wife refers to her children as luk farang, she is actually insulting them.

I am so disappointed in her now.

Are you sure she doesn't call them "luk Krung'?

[canuckamuck]

What, so when my wife refers to her children as luk farang, she is actually insulting them.

I am so disappointed in her now.

Are you sure she doesn't call them "luk Krung'?

Amazingly, I can tell the difference.

[mca]

I'm assuming pjclark1 means the then girlfriend's mother referring to him as " farang " in his presence whilst knowing his name which would strike me as rude.

[MJP]

I'm assuming pjclark1 means the then girlfriend's mother referring to him as " farang " in his presence whilst knowing his name which would strike me as rude.

It is and should be read as a warning sign.

[SamBolsty]

If you look through Thai eye's most of us are different to them,

We don't go to the temple and give money,

We don't believe in superstitions,

We don't speak the local language very well,

We complain about how Thai people do things,

We throw money around and take there women,

and the list goes on.

If the shoe was on the other foot most of us would not be so tolerant.

Speak for yourself mate, i do the opposite of everything you listed.

Altough i'm not too superstitious.

I see your point though, a lot of us do act in such ways, these should be the people we blame for how we are sometimes looked upon, not Thais.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm assuming pjclark1 means the then girlfriend's mother referring to him as " farang " in his presence whilst knowing his name which would strike me as rude.

I would agree, but the term "farang" is not rude unless used in a negative way like in this example.

[IanForbes]

This has been a funny thread with about 4 different topics going on at the same time. One has to do with being treated like second class citizens and another is comparing the beauty of various women, and still another is about a foreigner not being able to own land in Thailand.

The OP asked a perfectly accepaible question, or questions. Unfortunately, he based his question from one person's perspective... a foreign bar owner of a Thai bar. The bar owner was obviously biased in his opinion due to the situation he put himself in when he bought the bar. His comment about Thais thinking of us like being Muslims is so far off base it's ludicrous. Besides, Muslims are well established in Thailand and they are as much part of the culture as Chinese Thais, Laos Thais and Cambodian Thais..

There have been some erudite replies and some funny ones on this thread. And, some from people who are very narrow minded. I'm not going to say which ones are which. Everyone can make up their own minds on that one.

I'm not sure who first said it, but someone replied that we can't be second class citizens because we can't be citizens at all. That is very true. Live with it! We are all here by choice. We knew the situation coming in and chose to ignore what we don't like about Thailand.

Who gives a rat's azz WHAT some local Thai thinks of us? Why be so paranoid? I couldn't care less what some bozo thinks of me. If they are narrow minded, self righteous bigots it means nothing to me. They have no affect on my life at all. It's THEIR problem, not mine.

Why would I care if most of the Thai women are NOT beautiful (by Mr Makmaks standards) or only a few of them are? I can spend my time with the attractive ones and that is all that matters to me. Why worry about the rest? I don't spend my time with boozy louts, either. I don't have to. There are enough interesting people around who can hold a valid conversation to last my lifetime. And besides, I don't worry about having a conversation when I'm making love to a beautiful woman.

I"ve done all the family things a long time ago and raised two great children into responsible adults. Now I have 3 wonderful grand kids whose parents look after them, and I can spend my time doing anything I darn well please. There is something for most of us in Thailand and that is all that counts. If there wasn't then we wouldn't be here.

[samran]

What, so when my wife refers to her children as luk farang, she is actually insulting them.

I am so disappointed in her now.

Are you sure she doesn't call them "luk Krung'?

Amazingly, I can tell the difference.

in my experience it is the selective PC types who get all up in arms about the word 'farang' as if it some dastardly linguistic connotation designed to insult. Further evidence for 'conspiracy theorists' who are convinced that Thailand has it in for all whities (sorry those of European extraction).

[Senia]

what I do know is that Thai's like fair skinned people, all whites are Americans.

there is "racism amongst Thai's themselves, the fairer lot "prefering" to not mix with the darker skinned lot.

other Asians are deemed to be inferior to white people. the darker the more inferior.

doesn't apply to all Thai's though , but they do make it very obvious when it does apply

[Suradit]

We are not citizens at all.

Exactly

he said the thai's look at us like we look at the muslim community in our own country

Who is this "we?" Aside from Fox News, Jean-Marie Le Pen and other right-wing hate mongers, who is it that assigns caste designations/ class distinctions to people who are legitimate citizens of any particular country?

In any event in the US and UK just about everyone is looked upon as scum by some other group. Aside from the generic designations like "white trash," Euro-trash," "trailer trash," and such, there are the more finely tuned labels like wasp, wop, kike, toff, polack, <deleted>, honky ... the list is endless. You don't have the be Muslim to be hated in the enlightened west.

It seems strange that people who come to Thailand labor under the impression that back in their own country they were universally loved and respected, whereas in Thailand everyone regards them as beneath contempt.

If you take the time to get to know some Thais, especially those who aren't working in the bars you frequent, they will undoubtedly like or dislike you as an individual. Otherwise, most Thais probably go about their lives without thinking about you one way or the other.

On the other hand, if you only poll Thais who "socialize" with farang on Walking Street or in Patpong ... well it's understandable that they would form the generalised view that all farang are a trifle dubious.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Suradit

[richard_smith237]

What, so when my wife refers to her children as luk farang, she is actually insulting them.

I am so disappointed in her now.

Are you sure she doesn't call them "luk Krung'?

Amazingly, I can tell the difference.

in my experience it is the selective PC types who get all up in arms about the word 'farang' as if it some dastardly linguistic connotation designed to insult. Further evidence for 'conspiracy theorists' who are convinced that Thailand has it in for all whities (sorry those of European extraction).

I'm not sure about your comment being correct; it being 'the Selective PC types who get all up in arms about the word 'Farang' - What I do know is that when surrounded by Inlaws and family, work colleagues and friends (with all of whom there is respectful relationship) I can't recall a single occasion where the word falang has been used.

Thus using the word Falang ourselves is somewhat degrading ourselves.

[brianmarinus]

Even rich educated Thais believe in ghosts and make offerings to inanimate objects. Is it silly?

You think it is about being rich or poor to believe.?

Stupid!

I am a relatively rich, educated Brit and I believe in ghosts. I too have made many offering to inanimate objects. I don't think it's silly.

[doggie888888]

Thus using the word Falang ourselves is somewhat degrading ourselves.

Hmm, I shall avoid the guava, potato, parsley...their thai names contain the F-word. Some varieties of mango too! Maybe it is offensive to call someone a spud? LOL

[bonobo]

Veering a bit off the main point of the thread, but worth a correction:

The OP writes

"1. their religion that does not allow them to marry a christian,if a muslim woman was caught with a white man she would be killed and if a muslim man wanted to be with a white woman she would have to change her religion which few are willing to do.Obviously thai and falang is totally differant."

This is incorrect. A Muslim man may marry a woman of any religion. A Muslim women must marry a Muslim man, so any non-Muslim man must convert before the marriage is official.

[DoctorG]

1. I think we can agree that the OP used the term "2nd Class Citizen" as just terminology that has nothing to do with actual citizenship.

2. I don't care what anyone thinks of me. Why do you care?

3. I do not hang out at bars and have never been treated with disrespect by Thais. I think that you (generally) get treated the same as you treat other people.

4. I personally think that (northern) Chinese women are the prettiest, but I do not want to live there again and I am more than happy to be with the attractive Thai girls.

5. I do not expect any special treatment as a foreigner in Thailand. If I somehow become totally disillusioned, I will move somewhere else.

[Madivad]

"The only place i have been in thailand where im being looked down on, is in phuket." I think you can add Thai Visa forums.

[caf]

the average thai women are not very good looking.

I hope that this is supposed to be a joke. IMHO, the proportion of attractive women here is much higher than almost any place in the world.

By saying "almost" you imply Thai women are the second most beautiful. So which country is first?

Your careless use of English is confusing and takes much away from what could possibly be a good post.

caf

[caf]

Speak for yourself. I judge individuals by their actions not by what group you happen to lump them into.

Entirely as I do. I can't change the world so I don't even try. I'm just pleasant to everyone, and for the most part, people are pleasant in return.

Thailand has deemed that foreigners can't own land, so that decision alone changes my outlook on living in Thailand permanently. I understand WHY Thailand doesn't want foreigners to own land. It's because countries with far more wealth could actually buy a major portion of Thailand and change it forever. Authorities justifiably don't want that to happen. Unfortunately, In Canada our present leaders do not think the same way and the government leaders are selling out the public's ownership of our own country.

And yet despite your doom and gloom, it remains one of the top places in the world to live.

What doom and gloom? I love my life here and abroad. I'll be dead and gone before whoever is running Canada ruins it. That will be my children's problem to deal with. As for myself I'd just line the buggers up and shoot them all. Then, ask who is next. I've already lived to see the destruction of its once proud police force... the RCMP. That happened from the top down.

I kind of enjoy the wild west atmosphere of Thailand. Everyone has to be responsible for their own actions or they suffer the consequences... even though they DO blame it on Buddha.

Yes, I didn't see any doom and gloom in your post either.

You are often very direct but that is not doom and gloom. Rather pleasant to see posters on TV making a well reasoned point.

caf

[caf]

What a load of <deleted> !!

I'm taking it that by using the words " 2nd class citizens " that we are somehow treated worse than the Thai are or that we don't get the same benefits. The most obvious example of a benefit being land ownership which so many people go on about all the time. Simple fact is we are not Thai so they are just looking after their own and I can't blame them. It's only because most of us want some of what they've got without having to either marry a Thai or have shitloads of cash on hand.

Healthcare is another thing where Thais would have more benefits over us, if you are not paying tax that is. If you are paying tax then you are entitled to government healthcare. You get out what you put in. Many people in the West do have private healthcare too and is government healthcare in our own countries that good ?

Those are IMO the two main areas where Thais have more benefits than us. However I feel that the OP is sort of implying that it is more a case of Thais looking down on us and treating us differently on a day to day basis. In my everyday life I don not see this at all and in many instances I would say that I have been on the end of better treatment and service than I should have had. Especially so with my children . Thailand has got to be the most children friendly country in the world . I have said this before but once you have children here it is ( to Thai people ) like you have bought into the country somehow and you are now a ( non-voting ) shareholder. I get treated very well here. No problems whatsoever. I think it depends more on where you live and who you are living with. Do you where a shirt and tie in the morning or a pair of flip flops and a vest ? This stuff matters to Thais and like someone else said , running a bar pimping out women isn't going to endear you to too many people. Who is this guy you were talking too and why is his voice the truth ?

As far the comparisons with muslims. What a load of absolute rubbish. For starters many muslims in Thailand are married to buddhists with no conversions whatsoever and even married to westerners too. To the OP : keep your prejudices to yourself !

Are farangs treated equally under the justice system?

caf

[caf]

I dont see myself in thailand as being 2nd class (me falang too).....YES many thais may view us as second class, but you know, i know And they know really inside that this is not the case.....Class is not a money thing or what you have in life.....IT IS YOUR EDUCATION that sets you aside and they know that we have had on most occasions a far better education in the west than they could hope for here in normal situations......looking on us as second class is only a cover up of their own insecurity....end of.

Class is part of the hierarchical structure of Thailand and a reason for its relative social stability. Nothing to do with education. Reading some Thai history puts a different slant on some views expressed here

caf

[caf]

Falang, 2Nd Class Citizens?

It's simply a matter of how you carry yourself here isn't it ?

Behave well and respectfully and you will be treated accordingly.

Wear beer stained T-shirts, smell and prop up a bar all day and you will be treated accordingly.

Many foreigners in Thailand that I know of receive no more or no less respect from the Thai's than they would in their home countries, they expect no more or no less.

I for one however find that in general life here 90% of the time I get treated with equal indifference to a Thai, which is the normal scenario as I hardly expect a shop assistant to welcome me with adorning respect just because I'm not Thai. Also fairly regularly I might get treated more positively than a Thai might in a similar situation. 10% of the time I might find someone who is down right difficult - either this person doesn't like foreigners or is like this with anyone.

So, are considered 2nd Class citizens in Thailand ? IMO no, I really don't think the majority of Thai's care or even think about this subject one way or another. However, I feel that other 'non-white' nationalities sometimes get a less than 'on par' treatment in Thailand.

Thankyou richard for answering the question and sticking to the point and i tend to agree with you,a majority of the time people are friendly and personally i find the men more friendly than the women(no, not that sort of friendly!!),which i find unbelievable considering we invade their country and shag their women.

My view has always been if someone wants to live in my country of origin whatever colour,religion they must learn the language,culture and intergrate themselves into the community and i would treat them just the same as anyone else,i dont intend to be a hypocrite so im doing the exact thing here and i think people appreciate it.I dont spend too much time in the falang bars,just saturday night for the football and then im off to my fav thai bar but i agree if you prop up the bar all day you will cut yourself off from thai's and to me this is whats happening in pattaya.

they must learn the language,culture and integrate themselves into the community

[anonymouse]

the average thai women are not very good looking.

I hope that this is supposed to be a joke. IMHO, the proportion of attractive women here is much higher than almost any place in the world.

By saying "almost" you imply Thai women are the second most beautiful. So which country is first?

Your careless use of English is confusing and takes much away from what could possibly be a good post.

caf

How do you know UG's use of English is careless? You haven't given him time to answer your question yet.

Brazil might be a good bet, beauty is always very subjective, I know guys in the UK who won't look at a women if she isn't blonde and blue eyed.

[caf]

It's a matter of foreigners not being able to own land. It's a case of the shockingly small number of westerners who successfully become Thai citizens vs. Thais who become citizens in western countries. It's not a matter of being second class citizens. As mentioned before, you have to be some kind of citizen to be a second class citizen. In general, westerners are significantly LESS than second class citizens in Thailand. Please, don't delude yourselves, it's not flattering.

Jing,

You never seem to get it. It is only in your mind that Thailand has some obligation to reciprocate the privileges and benefits of the West. The Thais don't feel feel that way, do they? There is no Thai Statue of Liberty inscribed with a glowing invitation for immigrants. The Thais don't particularly want foreigners in their country, but they do tolerate them to a remarkable degree, i.e. permitting visa runs instead of requiring green cards. And they are quite clear that they will never permit foreigners to buy up Thai land just because the foreigners happen to benefit from a lucky exchange rate. It's their country. They get to decide about land ownership, convertibility of currency, and everything else.

All of which you understood before you relocated to Thailand. So, what is your beef? When you leave the country where you are a citizen to go to a country where you are not, you give up those substantial rights and privileges and become second-class or worse. That's true in all countries, but especially in developing ones.

You make a list of the pros and cons of living in Thailand. You stay. You go. What else is there to say?

Well said. I hope Jing takes a little time in reading other people's posts and doing some thinking before shooting from the hip

caf

[toybits]

The original poster (OP) did not establish whether this friend of his WAS a Thai Citizen or not. Yet he expects readers of this thread to THINK that he was. TROLL.

[toybits]

I see many Farangs hooking up with bargirls and I MEAN marrying them. Don't thnk this is a very good starting point for shaping the public opinion regarding farangs.

[anterian]

Thailand is ethnocentric. Not as bad as Japan or Korea but still ethnocentric. Most foreigners come here wearing their culture like a turtle wears a shell some even come from other countries like Australia and the US to impose their values on Thai society in a legal sense and arrest Thais for violating Australian and American laws. NGO's and do gooder governments just can't seem to leave Thailand alone. Thailand deported hundreds of Hmong people back to Laos because they remembered when the Hmong were responsible for heroin smuggling and production. The US and all the other Western nations including the UN went ballistic. Thailand didn't care. The same with the recent refugees sent out to sea to die. There is good and bad in the country. It would be nice to only talk about the good and accept the good and somehow change the Thais to eliminate the bad and to conform to western culture.

Even rich educated Thais believe in ghosts and make offerings to inanimate objects. Is it silly? It is part of Thailand. If you are sick in a government hospital the Thai person will be treated before the Falang given equal sickness. In some cases, if you make it on the inside of a Thai family or government institution you will be treated better than Thai people and given a god like status.

For example if you learn how to dance Thai dances and do so at a country concert you will be treated like a rock star. If you do something out of character, like being honest in a business transaction the Thai person will never forget.

The ethnocentrism works both ways. Thais don't expect loyalty or heroism from non Thais. If you show Thai people loyalty and or heroism they will grant you a larger status than a Thai person.

The door swings both ways. It is very difficult for most western people to understand the nuances of Thai culture when they conflict with long held western belief systems.

This is a very good and profound observation. In my village many people had told me that if I was Thai they would elect me as the Boss, not that I would want that

The reason why is that I help people and expect nothing in return, this is very un Thai, Thais keep a mental balance of debts and obligations. I teach and help the kids, lend money at no interest, check people health if asked,help out physically at social activities, when a neighbours house burnt down and all stood around not knowing what to do I got them organised.

Emotionally Thais are very like western teenagers, they cannot be forced, but they can be led by example. Set a good example and they will like and respect you.

[jazzbo]

I arranged my affairs prior to moving to Thailand such that at least in some quarters and circumstances I can answer the question 'So what do you actually do while in Thailand?' in a manner that engenders great admiration and respect amongst the Thai citizenry ... In other circumstances, I am treated just as any other Honkie.

Edited February 20, 2011 by jazzbo

[IanForbes]

This is a very good and profound observation. In my village many people had told me that if I was Thai they would elect me as the Boss, not that I would want that

The reason why is that I help people and expect nothing in return, this is very un Thai, Thais keep a mental balance of debts and obligations. I teach and help the kids, lend money at no interest, check people health if asked,help out physically at social activities, when a neighbours house burnt down and all stood around not knowing what to do I got them organised.

Emotionally Thais are very like western teenagers, they cannot be forced, but they can be led by example. Set a good example and they will like and respect you.

Excellent post. Yes, if you follow an honest life style and you DO lead by example then people will follow. People of all nations and ethnic groups understand generosity. And they DO keep a mental note of who are generous and who are not.

:jap: