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Crackdown On Backpack Teachers


george

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My daughter studies in an international school, it is expensive and they pay their teachers alot (relatively). Of course at a school like this one expects the teachers to be up to snuff (and they are). But upcountry and bi-lingual schools where the pay is low, it is supply and demand. I basically think that if the pay at all these schools (that pay low) cannot be raised, it is better to have the backpack native English teachers than not. If it came to my daughter studying English between a native English non-teacher and a Thai 'non native English' English teacher I would go with the backpacker.

This is another one of those red herrings I think. The way to make it easy to gaurantee higher standards is to increase pay, then the schools can increase the testing standards and the only problem is for ones who 'con' their way through. Now it is simply a lack of supply of qualified teachers wanting to work for low wages.

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Yeah a great nice move by the government. I hope that this practice will eliminate the teachers with fake degrees and the real teachers will come to serve the education community.

:o

Fantastic government move, all REAL teachers have a degree in education(BEd), how many teachers in Thailand have that????!!!!!

Edited by andyadam
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I believe the retention of the Thai script is a contributing factor in holding back literacy - also, how many times have you observed a Thai child reading an english text ?  Africa and India are generally way ahead in the ability to speak reasonable  english.  I understand that the monks have over the years resisted any changes to

the present system, this challenge has meant that the government of the time has been unable (or unwilling) to bite on the bullet.

Are you seriously suggesting that Thailand should convert to using the Roman alphabet??

There are already enough problems teaching that alphabet to those who relative few who want to learn English - imagine the chaos having to teach it to all native Thais so they can read their own language.

You have thought this through at all!

:o

Patrick

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Gaz, the best response so far - Having lived and worked in Thailand's sticksville for the last 6 years - I have yet to find a school , where the teacher of english is able to hold a decent conversation in english. A good Thai friend who has been teaching english for the last 25 years cannot SPEAK comprehensible english.  I am willing to bet that this situation is duplicated in > 90% Thailand's schools.

I believe the retention of the Thai script is a contributing factor in holding back literacy - also, how many times have you observed a Thai child reading an english text ?  Africa and India are generally way ahead in the ability to speak reasonable  english.  I understand that the monks have over the years resisted any changes to

the present system, this challenge has meant that the government of the time has been unable (or unwilling) to bite on the bullet.

12 months ago I was staying with my wife and her family in their village outside of Khon Kaen when her former english teacher came to visit. A Thai man in his sixties, he was in poor health and I believe just hanging on until retirement. We could barely communicate! He actually started to ask ME questions about english such as the difference in pronounciation between "sh" and "ch"! This man had taught my wife english 15 years earlier so how many students had been through his classes before and after? What a waste! No wonder the only english anyone ever said to me was "hello". In my opinion even the most unqualified natural english speaker could've done a far better job.

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Professionalism in Thai Education - don't make me laugh - rarely exists and at the end of the day, the government big shots don't want it as it'll spoil the status quo.

Nail on the head. Better education = more critical and harder to control population = not good for lining own pockets. Not to mention losing face as people laugh at govt. stupidity instead of thinking 'Great Leaders have great ideas'

Edited by OlRedEyes
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pound for pound i would side with the BG for understanding, speaking and writing english

and why

as she learns on the job - situational response

she has an intrinsic need

so shift all english :o lessons into the bars i say

just buy drinks and snacks for the teachers -maybe cheaper if happy hour classes

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The funny thing is the Thailand is caught between  a rock and hardplace.  The fact is they need English speaking people to teach their young however they make it so hard for people to come to the Kingdom.

Not just for teachers, I.T, Sales, ETC...  The simple fact they say how much they someone has to be paid based place of origin is crazy.  I am from the US and they say I need 60 per month.. Well I lived there for 11 months on less than 40k No Problem.

<snip>

rk

The salary levels to which you refer are little to do with what you are actually paid. They are however, as I understand it, used to assess the minimum tax that you must pay.

As for how much you as an individual were able to live on, that is totally irrelevant as regards 'minimum' salary levels.

Edited by Phil Clark
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Interesting ideas and counter claims here :D

Phony TEFL certs. and degrees are common place, even among native English speakers teaching here. One of my Thai neighbors is supposed to be an English teacher and she cannot speak English. She teaches 6 & 8 year olds but that should not be the point.

Anyway, I wish to note to others that do not teach here that there are other very important problems. Those problems are the books and material used, with major grammatical errors and many spelling errors the students are armed with faulty equipment.

My daughter’s books from a well established private school are case in point; they save money by purchasing sub standard material, and this would seem to stem from the budget allocated. Just where is the money? When you have to ask the question from an institution like the department of education “why don’t they” or “why did they” most of the time the answer is money. :D

The other problems are already discussed here, teachers pay, support of the Thai staff, and overall substandard of the institutions that are supposed to be “teaching” English make a preparation for failure when the equipment is faulty to begin with.

'pun'

TEST KWESTION: 'what you do now?"

:o

Edited by texan_cowboy
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HAHAHA....Surely, the righteous Thai Administrators thinking is to hire these folks.. COST effectiveness, forget about quality.. white faces.....All too often.. not offen..MOE trained Thai administrators making their way into the private school sector, come up with the darnest things.. at one meeting.. it was suggested that we hired backpacker.. teachers... because they were cheaper.. NOW.... many of with our degrees in English/teaching and appropriate teaching papers.. provided by the MOE...naturally objected.. but the THAI KHUN YING / Principal.. without her appropriate degrees (brought in by the owner of the school ) was a legend in her own mind.. AND she did it anyway.. and began to replace several of us she.. considered... to call her on questionable administrative calls..So we had a mass "get out of dodge".. show the B...h..... AND "JUST LEFT" us Hanging .. and leaving all types of biological waste on her door step...and Adios Thailand its been real.

Sitting in on Parent to Administrator meetings.. the parents have unrealistics expectations.. Sure they pay the buck to send their kids to a "NAME" school, but really, inspiring.. the likes of the "formerly named wannabes" W chan" is a deflating issue.

At times, it is a toss up.. leave the educating .. training to the teachers who know what they are doing.. or to a well intention parent ...off in the wrong directions or director, where the sun don't shine..

It is promising that parents take an active role into the state of the educational process.... where were they are these years.. during the revolving M of Education

review? Sending their kids abroad... Unfortunately, it is again... another case of deflecting attention to the real root of this situation...

It is the school adminstrators and board members.... that needs to be checked out and sanctioned.. for hiring these people.. BUT.. who are the folks from the MOE.. friends of the adminstration..so it is overlooked or paid for as a in-progress provision.

YET... I do cringe, when walking down the halls, and I hear a non-native (western English teachers) rolling the /r/ and /l/ and in perfect parrot techniques.. the kids return it. "YES, the kids deserve better."

However, in defense of the Backpacker teacher.. we assigned them to non-teaching duties, and that was more in their comfort zone.. Yard duty, dorm duty / Dorm parents...Study hall...a practice partner for English... Find the task for the person, and they do fine.. And everyone was happy.. the parents, because they saw white faces.. sorry but that is the call ... and the teaching staff.. enjoyed their input and help as teaching assistants.. AND.. YOU do not need a degree for that. AND as an observation.. in the boarding school environment.. too many kids are dumped .. and it becomes the role of the school to bring them along..and that is what the parents expect...Thus, the appropriate backpacker... would make a good choice..

YES.. do check the degrees.. .and check the dates... THAT is a matter for the ADM department but let's face it. DO THEY have the English savy to uncover thet FIBSS.. on the resume? At times, these are the worst offenders as they are the instruments of the ADM and OWNERS..

But as the fat lady says, WHAT DA..PLUCK.. does it matter..NEVER HAPPEN in THAILAND... But the reality of it.. Some cute Backpacker, said no to an official or a DH male parent.. with and inflated..left T.. cycle... who knew somebody..

:o

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Hi

I live in Canada where the top pay for a teacher with a 4 year degree is $65,000.00/ year plus benifits and they can be very very good. Education faculties have low acceptance requirements at times in Canada, it depends upon what the needs are seen to be at the time.

How does Thailand expect to get the best for 25,000 baht a month.

oyster

I am also Canadian, and we employ teachers and administrators, many of which earn well over $100,000 a year with two months off in Summer, plus Winter break etc. and all of them can spell "benefits". Education facilities, as far as we know, all have stringent selection standards, especially in BC.

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There's a curious dichotomy or at least a blind spot in Thai parents' minds when it comes to School Fees / Teachers' pay.

My daughter used to attend ISB (she's now graduated), probably the most expensive International School in Thailand. For many years the Thai law was such that a child with Thai parents could not attend an International School unless they had previously studied abroad.

10 years or so ago the Anand Panyarachun government changed this and allowed a Thai child to attend any school - so long as the parents could pay the Fees of course. There was an immediate influx of Thai / Chinese children into ISB and equally immediately a Thai Parents Association was set up which began lobbying against the high School Fees and their obvious link to the high salaries paid to the teachers (nearly all of whom were Farang with relevant degrees and experience). My wife is Thai and because she has a Thai forename she was put on the mailing list of the Thai Parents Association so I had the opportunity to read some of the very vituperous and inflamatory comments made there about the teachers' salaries and benefits. Talking to some of the Thai parents at Sports days etc. it was virtually impossible to get them to accept, even understand, the simple principle that you have to pay for a quality education - and quality educators.

Patrick

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Up here they made first classes in english only...

but there is no necessary knowledge required by students, no entry exams no questions asked, just if you can pay the fee welcome

How comes that all teachers involved in this programm agreed and complain only 6 month after that their sudents are not able to understand them and they are not able to explain in thai...

Nice place to live Thailand, unfortunately the very poor educationnal system makes a lot of parents move out for the better of their children

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Up here they made first classes in english only...

but there is no necessary knowledge required by students, no entry exams no questions asked, just if you can pay the fee welcome

How comes that all teachers involved in this programm agreed and complain only 6 month after that their sudents are not able to understand them and they are not able to explain in thai...

Nice place to live Thailand, unfortunately the very poor educationnal system makes a lot of parents move out for the better of their children

You answered your own question. Usually, students are not tested before entering an English program. The parents buy the kids into such programs and the expectation is that they will speak perfect English in three days (okay, a little exaggerated). Most of the time, it's the parents who want the kids to learn, not the kids themselves. This creates a very big problem for the teacher. Little Somchai could care less about learning and according to Thai regulations, Somchai cannot fail, and Somchai knows it. What does he do? Normally, he is bored off his duff, refuses to do homework, participate, and creates disturbances in the classroom. Guess what? The following year, little Somchai, who has not learned a thing, will progress to the next level, continuing his disruptive behavior and further creating a non-learning environment for the students who want to learn.

Fair enough, there are schools who do test the kids before they enter a program. Once again, money prevails and no matter how little a child understands, they are not refused into an English speaking program. You were rather generous in your post about 6 months and the teacher complains. I complain the moment the child fails the pre-screening test. If they can't comprehend a simple sentence such as, "How are you?", then they shold not be trying to begin taking courses such as science in English. It will not work.

I've found that complaining does not do an iota of good here. All the little Somchai's who have no interest in learning will still be allowed to attend all English classes, and will pass no matter what. The problem is not always the teacher. When parents point a finger at the teacher, they have three poniting back at them. You paid/bribed your childs way into a program, you refuse to acknowledge your child is not ready for programs such as these, yet you force them into this atmosphere, and last many of you actually do your childs homework while they sit and chat on MSN all night! Where's the problem?

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Up here they made first classes in english only...

but there is no necessary knowledge required by students, no entry exams no questions asked, just if you can pay the fee welcome

How comes that all teachers involved in this programm agreed and complain only 6 month after that their sudents are not able to understand them and they are not able to explain in thai...

Nice place to live Thailand, unfortunately the very poor educationnal system makes a lot of parents move out for the better of their children

You answered your own question. Usually, students are not tested before entering an English program. The parents buy the kids into such programs and the expectation is that they will speak perfect English in three days (okay, a little exaggerated). Most of the time, it's the parents who want the kids to learn, not the kids themselves. This creates a very big problem for the teacher. Little Somchai could care less about learning and according to Thai regulations, Somchai cannot fail, and Somchai knows it. What does he do? Normally, he is bored off his duff, refuses to do homework, participate, and creates disturbances in the classroom. Guess what? The following year, little Somchai, who has not learned a thing, will progress to the next level, continuing his disruptive behavior and further creating a non-learning environment for the students who want to learn.

Fair enough, there are schools who do test the kids before they enter a program. Once again, money prevails and no matter how little a child understands, they are not refused into an English speaking program. You were rather generous in your post about 6 months and the teacher complains. I complain the moment the child fails the pre-screening test. If they can't comprehend a simple sentence such as, "How are you?", then they shold not be trying to begin taking courses such as science in English. It will not work.

I've found that complaining does not do an iota of good here. All the little Somchai's who have no interest in learning will still be allowed to attend all English classes, and will pass no matter what. The problem is not always the teacher. When parents point a finger at the teacher, they have three poniting back at them. You paid/bribed your childs way into a program, you refuse to acknowledge your child is not ready for programs such as these, yet you force them into this atmosphere, and last many of you actually do your childs homework while they sit and chat on MSN all night! Where's the problem?

The owners of the schools make alot of money. I propose a "backpacker farang teachers Union". You get what you pay for. The NES school in Chiang Mai is horrible, it is like a revolving door with broke farangs that have to work. The owner loves broke farangs, they have to work for less which means more gas money for his brand new 4 door Mercedes Benz. Choke dee

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There is some truth in most of these posts, as different as they all are. My comments:

Hypocracy on better english language training:

1. Govt publically stated a few months ago that it would dramatically increase recruitment of foreign teachers to improve english-language standards of Thai students, announcing many of the new teachers would come from the Philippines and India. Then it runs the 'backpacker' (presumably young native-english farang) teachers out of the country.

2. Agree with earlier post that this is the hi-so Thais paying lip service to the concerns of (growing) middle-class thais sending their kids to 'bilingual' schools. The hi-so's do indeed want to maintain status quo for their kids (ruling elite who will continue to get a better education and better job - with better english ability - especially if the middle-class competition are learning english from indians/philippinos).

Young English-native teachers with qualifications WILL come for cheap.

1. I think so. They area looking for adventure, and if they have the professional qualification from UK/Aus/Canada etc, they may also have a backpack. Don't be so quick to discount them. The schools just need to check their qualifications a bit more closely, right?

Some farang teachers are crap..but again check their references/qualifications:

1. I went to an international/bilingual school fair at Queen Sirikit Centre a couple of years ago and at the booth of one of the bilingual schools met a young British teacher who explained that 'the kids here learn English, Thai and a choice of a third language either Chinese or japanese..'. "Great," I said. "So I guess that means they can learn Mandarin right?" The guy gave me a blank stare, so I said: "Chinese - which dialect?" And he said "just normal Chinese" then added a bit sheepishly "look I teach english I don't teach chinese so I don't know.."

But maybe it's not the teacher, maybe it's the students??

1. Well, many of the young kids from middle-class Thai-Chinese merchant families (the kind who can afford to send their kid to bilingual schools) are tubby, spoiled little brats with maids running around behind them to pick up the potato-chip wrappers. In the West we were taught individually to strive for things and that success was the reward for hard work..don't see that in evidence here very much do you? It's all about 'do a dirty little deal with another Thai-Chinese family to get a monopoly and bribe anyone else you have to in order to get that Benz and big house in Hua Hin"..okay, well you know what I mean. Maybe the kids just aren't up to it, and are only there cause their parents can afford to pay for it..

enuff ranting..

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Probe into complaints over dysfunctional teachers

"Teachers not properly trained or tested by already low ministry standards

BANGKOK: -- The House committee on consumer protection has set up a team to probe parents' complaints that many Thai schools hire local teacher college graduates as teachers, lowering educational standards.

The committee's deputy chairman, MP Vicharn Minchainant, said on Friday there had been many complaints that lessons did not meet Education Ministry standards despite those standards being below international norms.

The committee invited various irrelevant agencies to a joint meeting, which yielded an agreement to establish a fact-finding team led by MP Turpid Chaiyass to investigate the problem. "The team will look into the curriculum to see if they're too tough on Thai students who can't handle even a weak syallbus related to critical thinking, because we have heard from parents that many Thai teachers are alcoholics and sxual deviants," Vicharn said.

He added that this type of teacher although trained and tested by ministry standards, still lead to a reduced quality of education in the bilingual schools.

"Tourists with backpacks can be found with better credentials and higher pedagogical skills than many Thai teachers in Bangkok and especially upcountry," he said, adding that a random check had identified 96 schools in Bangkok alone with poorly qualified teachers.  This is especially embarassing after PM Toxin Shiddalot met a tourist backpacker with a PhD in education on the beach of Koh Phangang, as he was doing a  personal investigation of the "Full Moon" party, who gave him a sound lashing in public for the continued sorry state of Thai public education.

--The Notion 2005-09-11

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I should think, on balance, many a so-called backpacker teacher has probably made a reasonable contribution to whatever scholl they ended up in. The issue of how and whether to 'regulate' them is hardly a difficult one to resolve-unless of course supposedly 'regular' teachers are not regulated!

The issue of why, and this another generalisation, most Thais cannot learn English is of continual interest.

I meet numerous people from the PRC who speak, read and write excellent English and they have almost never travelled or been educated abroad. And Mandarin and other regional variants are also obviously not supported by a roman alphabet (and they are tonal languages too). Similar competence can be easily and widely encountered in Russia and even Korea-(maybe less so of Japan-in spite of considerable input from native speakers)

.

It seems true that in Thailand the only people who can manage relatively fluently in English are the overseas educated rich and BGs-in between we all rightly point out competence is minimal.

Is it true that there has traditionally been 'discouragement' from the Sangha?

It is certainly true that materials are appalling; also true that the common practice of transcribing all pronunciation into Thai equivalence is a great inhibitor.

It seems, also, that the EFL community in promoting 'Direct Methods' have ignored the difficulties that having a mother tongue without a roman alphabet presents.

Oddly one meets many Thais who can write and even read English, often without a clue as to meaning--copying and rote learning?

Maybe the 'social' issues are the most problematic. Leaving aside spoiled brats and yuppie parents I suspect one of the problems is that many Thais are incredibly ignorant about the 'West' and see no reason to be interested-after all Thailand for them is a a zone of cultural and economic self sufficiency of which they are confidently proud to the point of excess.

Actually I cannot see how any educational system directed towards 'real learning' could work in a community which so values conformity and considers all expressions of advice, instruction, implication of mistakes, etc as an unwarranted intrusion of personal autonomy!

Lighten up ! Now !

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Probe into complaints over backpack teachers

"Teachers not properly trained or tested by ministry standards

the fact is, that thai-children are not able to speak english after learning english for 6 - 7 years. And that the ministery is not interested to change this situation! this ist the reason, why tourists can teach english without knowledge. i wrote the ministery already, but got no answer. i suppose, they are not able to read english. :o

BANGKOK: -- The House committee on consumer protection has set up a team to probe parents' complaints that many bilingual schools hire backpacking tourists as teachers, lowering educational standards.

The committee's deputy chairman, MP Vicharn Minchainant, said on Friday there had been many complaints that lessons did not meet Education Ministry standards despite high tuition fees.

The committee invited relevant agencies to a joint meeting, which yielded an agreement to establish a fact-finding team led by MP Torpong Chaiyasan to investigate the problem. "The team will look into the curriculum and tuition fees to see if they're too tough on Thai students, because we have heard from parents that the foreign teachers are mostly tourists from Europe, Australia and Asian countries," Vicharn said.

He added that this type of teacher was not properly trained or tested by ministry standards, leading to a reduced quality of education in the bilingual schools.

"These tourist or backpack teachers can be found in many schools in Bangkok and upcountry," he said, adding that a random check had identified 96 schools in Bangkok alone with poorly qualified teachers.

--The Nation 2005-09-11

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An awful lot has been posted here but it all strikes me as being much ado about nothing. Go back and re-examine the initial posted story. All that it really says is the powers-that-be have received complaints about the quality of English-language education and are going to set up a team (i.e. committee) to examine said complaints. Is there any reason to believe that there will be any action taken whatsoever? If you really think so, history is not on your side. :o

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An awful lot has been posted here but it all strikes me as being much ado about nothing.  Go back and re-examine the initial posted story.  All that it really says is the powers-that-be have received complaints about the quality of English-language education and are going to set up a team (i.e. committee) to examine said complaints.  Is there any reason to believe that there will be any action taken whatsoever?  If you really think so, history is not on your side.  :o

Exactly.

I call it the "Crackdown Mentality." Every week or so, I report how Thais crackdown on something, noise levels at discos, drugs, etc. Six months later, I report a crackdown on the very same thing again. I think I listed about twelve crackdowns with in a six week period. What this story has done, here anyway, is ignited alot of debate.

I wonder if Thais discuss this in much the same way?

http://www.radiobangkok.net

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I wonder how many of the Thai teachers reach the standards, not just on

paper but in the classroom? With better skilled local teachers the "back-packers"

would not be needed

Better salaries might help.

I remember the difference between my son's teachers in the local Thai school, who all pushed off at 4pm everyday, and the ones at the private school he transfered to. They ran activites after school, and in the holidays. My son would pester me to attend these "extra" classes.

He was enjoying school.

By the way, a recent survey in the UK says that quite a high percentage of teachers there do not have an A-level (12th grade exam) in the subject they teach. (It was reported in the UK press in the last month).

Which I found strange, as back in 1970 when I qualified, all teachers were

required to have degrees. Why the step backwards, I wonder?

Edited by astral
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I'm just glad I came here and got hired at the right time. I've already said in L.A. I couldn't find anywork because a college degree means nothing when you are in competition with 40 year olds looking for work. Thailand is the first place where I get offered so many jobs I have to turn some down. But now I actually have credentials.

I was never a backpacker but I've had to deal with jobs in America that said things like, "we've had bad experiences with young people" or "no more Blacks". and of coarse, "you have no professional experience". I just came out of college!

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I believe the retention of the Thai script is a contributing factor in holding back literacy - also, how many times have you observed a Thai child reading an english text ?  Africa and India are generally way ahead in the ability to speak reasonable  english.  I understand that the monks have over the years resisted any changes to

the present system, this challenge has meant that the government of the time has been unable (or unwilling) to bite on the bullet.

Are you seriously suggesting that Thailand should convert to using the Roman alphabet??

There are already enough problems teaching that alphabet to those who relative few who want to learn English - imagine the chaos having to teach it to all native Thais so they can read their own language.

You have thought this through at all!

:o

Patrick

It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. Drastic for sure, but not stupid.

It was done successfully in Turkey and Poland. In the case of Turkey it was part of a push to modernise the country.

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The establishments would of course be able to hire better qualified teachers if they paid a decent salary + health care + visa + work permit + teachers license, and provided pre-prepared lesson plans and support materials.  All of which are minimum demand from professional teachers.

And I thought these expenses should be the workers' responsibilities? I have never seen any employers who want decent staff have to pay for all these!!

This is abject nonsense. In more than twenty years in international higher education, I have ALWAYS been provided with all of the above (apart from lesson plans, which I agree are the responsibility of the individual teacher) by my employers. Just like any other professional expatriate package. The only exception was Thailand, and this is the principal reason why so few professional educators are tempted in the first place, except perhaps to work for the handful of genuine international schools. Those who do venture there usually end up fleeing in horror from the atrocious working conditions, the xenophobia of the Thai ajarns and administrators, and the generally low standards and chaotic unprofessionalism of the Thai edutainment circus.

Despite all the hype and political posturing, professional foreign educators are not welcome, nor are they particularly wanted in the Thai education system. Thai teachers don’t want them because the pittance they receive is a little more than the pittance paid to the Thais, and the presence of competent foreigner teachers merely serves to underline the incompetence and ignorance of many of the Thai teachers. School owners and administrators don’t really want them because they are more expensive, more demanding and less likely to put up with gross ineptitude than Thais. And the Thai elite and their political mouthpieces certainly don’t want them, for fear that they might actually teach little Nit or Somchai to think, and then where would we be?

Anyone who believes that this latest pronouncement is going to have any effect whatsoever on the “quality” of education in Thailand, is living in cloud-cuckoo land. For one thing, such utterances are usually forgotten a couple of minutes after they are made. For another, the malaise afflicting the education system as a whole runs so deep, that it will take a huge investment of effort, time and MONEY to come up with solutions which will really work. I see no indication whatever that such planning is in progress. Instead we have the usual strategy of “blame the farang” and apply the cheapest band-aid you can find, because the Thai public will surely fall for it.

Edited by Rumpole
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