Thai Probe Says Army Did Not Kill Japan Cameraman

[whybother]

So unarmed protestors pushing through Army lines in civil disobedience is the precursor violence that you use to justify subsequent responses by the army. Oh, well.

The Army did so much shooting outside their rules of engagement, it's laughable to STILL suggest that they didn't.

I will give the rest of your comments about why surveillance, intel and lack of special forces ops weren't used the disdain they deserve. I gave you a few pointers on this in my last post in this thread, and I rightly speculated that you would ignore them. No surprise there.

I didn't say that justified the subsequent responses by the army. That's your twist.

I was using that as an example of why the army couldn't send in squads.

When, exactly, did they have enough time to find out the eating habits and sleeping places of the armed red shirts? You gave me pointers of how an army that had years to do their surveillance would do it. How is that relevant in this situation?

[Siam Simon]

So unarmed protestors pushing through Army lines in civil disobedience is the precursor violence that you use to justify subsequent responses by the army. Oh, well.

The Army did so much shooting outside their rules of engagement, it's laughable to STILL suggest that they didn't.

I will give the rest of your comments about why surveillance, intel and lack of special forces ops weren't used the disdain they deserve. I gave you a few pointers on this in my last post in this thread, and I rightly speculated that you would ignore them. No surprise there.

I didn't say that justified the subsequent responses by the army. That's your twist.

I was using that as an example of why the army couldn't send in squads.

When, exactly, did they have enough time to find out the eating habits and sleeping places of the armed red shirts? You gave me pointers of how an army that had years to do their surveillance would do it. How is that relevant in this situation?

If you think competent intel and surveillance services take years to gather and plan special ops for missions that were appropriate for the troubles last year, you are hopelessly incorrect. Most special forces ops are organic, and planned and executed in days, sometimes hours. Look at the rescue missions going on in Libya at the moment. Like I said, It's a fascinating subject if researched properly. But the realities of it don't fit the argument you're pushing, so I don't expect you to acknowledge said realities.

[whybother]

If you think competent intel and surveillance services take years to gather and plan special ops for missions that were appropriate for the troubles last year, you are hopelessly incorrect. Most special forces ops are organic, and planned and executed in days, sometimes hours. Look at the rescue missions going on in Libya at the moment. Like I said, It's a fascinating subject if researched properly. But the realities of it don't fit the argument you're pushing, so I don't expect you to acknowledge said realities.

I'm sure it's a fascinating subject. It would be great if the Thai army had special forces ops trained for urban warfare too.

[Buchholz]

That's highly doubtful as tens of thousands of students at places like Mara Sarakham University and Khon Kaen University and Rajabhat Institutes around the country are absolutely NOT "upper (amaart) class."

They outnumber those that are "amaart" by a factor that must be in double digits. That they, by and large, have not become involved in the Red Shirts, even in communities where the Red Shirt presence is large, speaks to their aversion to buying into what the Red Shirts are trying to sell.

Or maybe it speaks to their studies and student lifestyles being the major focus of their 'raisons d'etre' at this point in their lives?

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Those realities could logically lead one to believe it's a case of the Red Shirts ringing up a

with university students.

.

[jayboy]

the reason I think that, for the most part, young people and student groups have not gone in on the side of the poor oppressed masses is that they are capable of seeing the redshirt leadership for what it is AND have seen and heard the calls for violence from the reds.

I'm not sure about this at all.It's beyond doubt that Thai students are less politicised than in the 1970s.However my impression is that the student body is largely apolitical now.I haven't seen much evidence for strong political views one way or the other, concentrating rather on preparation for a competitive job market.This would reflect the situation in many Western countries.

On a related tack, and I'm thinking out loud here, I wonder if in a general sense students have the abhorrence of violence that most of us have.After all throughout history events have been shaped by young men who are prepared to go out on the streets and crack heads and risk having their own heads cracked.

The position of Thai students on political matters is an interesting subject.It would be good to have credible surveys available.

A final point I have never really thought the motivation for the Red Shirt movement is mainly about the "poor oppressed masses".It might have been 40 years ago but Thailand has developed (for the better) beyond recognition since then, and if it doesn't sound presumptuous coming from a foreigner I don't think there is much dastardly oppression going on.I think the main motivation is two fold - interference in politics by unelected elite figures and underlying that a profound sense of unfairness.

[Siam Simon]

That's highly doubtful as tens of thousands of students at places like Mara Sarakham University and Khon Kaen University and Rajabhat Institutes around the country are absolutely NOT "upper (amaart) class."

They outnumber those that are "amaart" by a factor that must be in double digits. That they, by and large, have not become involved in the Red Shirts, even in communities where the Red Shirt presence is large, speaks to their aversion to buying into what the Red Shirts are trying to sell.

Or maybe it speaks to their studies and student lifestyles being the major focus of their 'raisons d'etre' at this point in their lives?

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Those realities could logically lead one to believe it's a case of the Red Shirts ringing up a

with university students.

.

Well, we know about those dreadful incidents at Thammasat all those years ago (which are cautionary tales for any high-flying teenager thinking of protesting against the establishment). But you mentioned other unis. Do they have track records of protest?

[jayboy]

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Just a postscript to my comments on this subject.I don't think most reasonable people would disagree that the Red Shirt movement has failed to generate a student consensus behind it, a reflection perhaps on its lacklustre leadership (not so much on Thaksin himself).

At the same time there doesn't seem to be much student support for the old fashioned right wing gerontocracy - where feudalists, generals and other fat cats assume they have the right to speak for the Thai people.Equally there wasn't much student support for the yellowshirts (Let's face it a mob of Chinese grannies and young hoodlums isn't exactly "cool")

In other words a word of caution to reactionaries, don't make too many comfortable assumptions about Thai students.

Edited March 4, 2011 by jayboy

[Siam Simon]

If you think competent intel and surveillance services take years to gather and plan special ops for missions that were appropriate for the troubles last year, you are hopelessly incorrect. Most special forces ops are organic, and planned and executed in days, sometimes hours. Look at the rescue missions going on in Libya at the moment. Like I said, It's a fascinating subject if researched properly. But the realities of it don't fit the argument you're pushing, so I don't expect you to acknowledge said realities.

I'm sure it's a fascinating subject. It would be great if the Thai army had special forces ops trained for urban warfare too.

They don't? Why? It's just about the only serious warfare they've been involved with in their modern history.

[whybother]

They don't? Why? It's just about the only serious warfare they've been involved with in their modern history.

I would hardly class what they did in 76 and 92 as "urban warfare".

[hammered]

the reason I think that, for the most part, young people and student groups have not gone in on the side of the poor oppressed masses is that they are capable of seeing the redshirt leadership for what it is AND have seen and heard the calls for violence from the reds.

I'm not sure about this at all.It's beyond doubt that Thai students are less politicised than in the 1970s.However my impression is that the student body is largely apolitical now.I haven't seen much evidence for strong political views one way or the other, concentrating rather on preparation for a competitive job market.This would reflect the situation in many Western countries.

On a related tack, and I'm thinking out loud here, I wonder if in a general sense students have the abhorrence of violence that most of us have.After all throughout history events have been shaped by young men who are prepared to go out on the streets and crack heads and risk having their own heads cracked.

The position of Thai students on political matters is an interesting subject.It would be good to have credible surveys available.

A final point I have never really thought the motivation for the Red Shirt movement is mainly about the "poor oppressed masses".It might have been 40 years ago but Thailand has developed (for the better) beyond recognition since then, and if it doesn't sound presumptuous coming from a foreigner I don't think there is much dastardly oppression going on.I think the main motivation is two fold - interference in politics by unelected elite figures and underlying that a profound sense of unfairness.

Add in competing business groups and you have it pretty much all I think. The next election is critical on this one as certain businesses will do well or badly depending on who gets to run the government

[Emptyset]

the reason I think that, for the most part, young people and student groups have not gone in on the side of the poor oppressed masses is that they are capable of seeing the redshirt leadership for what it is AND have seen and heard the calls for violence from the reds.

I'm not sure about this at all.It's beyond doubt that Thai students are less politicised than in the 1970s.However my impression is that the student body is largely apolitical now.I haven't seen much evidence for strong political views one way or the other, concentrating rather on preparation for a competitive job market.This would reflect the situation in many Western countries.

On a related tack, and I'm thinking out loud here, I wonder if in a general sense students have the abhorrence of violence that most of us have.After all throughout history events have been shaped by young men who are prepared to go out on the streets and crack heads and risk having their own heads cracked.

The position of Thai students on political matters is an interesting subject.It would be good to have credible surveys available.

A final point I have never really thought the motivation for the Red Shirt movement is mainly about the "poor oppressed masses".It might have been 40 years ago but Thailand has developed (for the better) beyond recognition since then, and if it doesn't sound presumptuous coming from a foreigner I don't think there is much dastardly oppression going on.I think the main motivation is two fold - interference in politics by unelected elite figures and underlying that a profound sense of unfairness.

Some student groups have allied with the red shirts (for instance: http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/yurivelasquez/2010/03/19/entry-1), Daeng Siam and some of the other splinter groups (Students Federation Thailand usually shares the stage with June 24 group) seem to have more student support than the UDD specifically does. I guess a lot of liberal minded or socialist students are pro-democracy/anti-'amaat' but also anti-Thaksin, so support the red shirts at some level but are also a bit wary, they might be more comfortable around people like Sombat rather than Jatuporn etc. Well, many of the young educated politically engaged Thai people I know that I'd describe as liberal, are pro-red (as opposed to yellow) but mostly wouldn't attend rallies themselves. Actually, I wouldn't even say 'pro-red' but they're more likely to read things like Prachatai and Matichon & watch Voice TV (which is obviously fairly pro-red as it was set up by Thaksin's son Oak, but generally takes a 'liberal' stand on most issues), so they'll obviously be more inclined to give the reds a shot than many others would. Although I think most students tend to be anti-red rather than red. Majority of students are like many people, apolitical, might not feel that strongly that way or another about the actual politics - or not understand what it's about at all - but perhaps dislike the reds because of the disruption and the perceived anti-monarchy aspect. Obviously politics students will most likely tend to feel strongly one way or another.

Yep, I think you're right that 70s Thailand was clearer cut politically than now, it was very clear to all who the oppressor was and that Thailand was a military dictatorship, but right now you have Abhisit, not exactly a good dictatorial figure and this intra-elite struggle which distracts people from the so-called 'genuine grievances'... you can see why most people, students or not, don't really want to take a side. Even though most probably lean one way or the other, the majority don't want to be actively involved. And I think you're also right that students have become generally depoliticised worldwide... well, comparing to the 60s, 70s etc. As an aside, it should be noted that though the protests in 73 were student lead, the participants came from all sectors of society and many of those who died were ordinary working class folk, not students.

[hammered]

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Just a postscript to my comments on this subject.I don't think most reasonable people would disagree that the Red Shirt movement has failed to generate a student consensus behind it, a reflection perhaps on its lacklustre leadership (not so much on Thaksin himself).

At the same time there doesn't seem to be much student support for the old fashioned right wing gerontocracy - where feudalists, generals and other fat cats assume they have the right to speak for the Thai people.Equally there wasn't much student support for the yellowshirts (Let's face it a mob of Chinese grannies and young hoodlums isn't exactly "cool")

In other words a word of caution to reactionaries, don't make too many comfortable assumptions about Thai students.

Students in Thailand still have the opportunity to get a good job which will provide them with the comforts they want. That is different from a lot of the arab world where you see students on the streets and degree holders who have to beg or do manual work. As long as a society can deliver on the expectations of a group that will not really worry overly about politics and may not even partake in the process of selection. In Thailand things are fixed more on rural farmers and unqualified or lowly qualified urban workers. Even here there is probably a mix in those able to accept their lot and those who would really like it a little a better. In most cases I wouldnt think there are many on the extreme of either loving or hating it, but many gathered around a middle which with some concessions could easily by placated or with no concessions could easily be further annoyed.

One of the sad things is that among the fair few (lower end) members of the elite I meet is that around 50% of them are living a delusional reality of Thaland some time many years ago. The other half seem to see a problem that needs to be addressed even if it means they give a little away. However, if this split is representative of those who really do have power then there is little chance of the problems we see going away quickly, and as time goes by what they will have to give away to protect their own position and expectations is only going to become grerater

[Buchholz]

That's highly doubtful as tens of thousands of students at places like Mara Sarakham University and Khon Kaen University and Rajabhat Institutes around the country are absolutely NOT "upper (amaart) class."

They outnumber those that are "amaart" by a factor that must be in double digits. That they, by and large, have not become involved in the Red Shirts, even in communities where the Red Shirt presence is large, speaks to their aversion to buying into what the Red Shirts are trying to sell.

Or maybe it speaks to their studies and student lifestyles being the major focus of their 'raisons d'etre' at this point in their lives?

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Those realities could logically lead one to believe it's a case of the Red Shirts ringing up a

with university students.

Well, we know about those dreadful incidents at Thammasat all those years ago (which are cautionary tales for any high-flying teenager thinking of protesting against the establishment). But you mentioned other unis. Do they have track records of protest?

well, Ramkhamhaeng University had this...

Reuters - 05/18/2010

Channel 3 television reported that hundreds of red shirts had attempted to hold a protest at Ramkhamhaeng University in southern Bangkok on Monday evening.

When students resisted and riot police intervened, the red shirts agreed to hold their rally outside the university.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/world/05/18/10/thai-protesters-agree-talks-end-violence

and Chulalongkorn University had this...

TNA - 04/26/2010

After the prime minister called a meeting with provincial governors on Sunday, Nattawut said he believed the governors would not follow the prime minister’s order as they did not want confrontation with local people.

Red Shirt guards were instructed to be more vigilant after a hand grenade was found in front of the emergency room of Chulalongkorn University Hospital Monday morning. The grenade was disposed by officials.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=359478&view=findpost&p=3541438

and

The Nation - 04/02/2010

BANGKOK: -- Jatuporn Promphan Thursday warned the Chulalongkorn University against allowing its academics to come out to organize campaigns against the red-shirt movement.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=352204&view=findpost&p=3465730

The Nation - 04/02/2010

BANGKOK: -- The red shirts' threat to stage a rally at Chulalongkorn University today to counter an emerging movement calling for political peace forced the latter to switch the venue for its gathering to Lumpini Park and prompted the University to shut itself down for three days.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=352533&view=findpost&p=3464681

back to Ramkhamhaeng University for an earlier incident...

The Nation - 01/31/2007

Thai Rak Thai Party Deputy Spokesman Jatuporn Promphan reacted angrily on Wednesday after a group of Ramkhamhaeng University students visited the party headquarters and demanded he stop intervening in the university's activities.

Some 20 students lead by student organisation chairman Somchote Meechana yesterday submitted a letter to the Thai Rak Thai caretaker leader Chaturon Chaisang, asking the party to stop interfering with the students. But Jatuporn received the letter himself.

The students also brought a banner that read "We demand political groups to stop interfering with the student's organisation".

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/31/headlines/headlines_30025621.php

and

The Nation - 05/28/2007

The Ramkhamhaeng University Student Union has distanced itself from a PTV rally scheduled for Thursday coinciding with the verdicts on two electoral fraud cases. "PTV organiser Jatuporn Phromphan has claimed to mobilise up to 1,000 Ramkamhaeng students to join his planned protest; this is impossible as he has no more than 200 students loyal to him," student union chairman Sikkhanan Nulek said Monday.

Sikkhanan said the majority of student population lost trust in Jatuporn after realising that he was using his status as a University alumnus to advance his political agenda. Jatuporn is seen as close to ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=117885&view=findpost&p=1328646

and to finish off the brief tour of recent history... Krirk University...

The Nation - 08/22/2006

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has decided to cancel his lecture at Krirk University on Wednesday to prevent reoccurrence of clashes between pro and anti-Thaksin groups. Thai Rak Thai's Deputy Spokesman Jatuporn Prompan said that the University team made the decision after seeing the clashes between supporters and opponents of Thaksin at Central World Shopping Complex on Monday.

Thaksin was scheduled to give a lecture to postgraduate students with majors in communication and political science at Krirk University on Ramindra Road on Wednesday.

Four people were injured on Monday during pro-Thaksin supporters' attacks on anti-Thaksin group.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/22/headlines/headlines_30011690.php

btw, these were just a few of the returns and then using only Jatuporn as a search criteria. No doubt many others are available with a broader search criteria. One can surmise there's a number of reasons why the Red Shirts (and their origins) haven't really been a hit with universities.

.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

One can surmise there's a number of reasons why the Red Shirts (and their origins) haven't really been a hit with universities.

Yes one can and there was quite an interesting discussion going on why this might be the case.

As far as I can see your long cut and paste post doesn't add anything of substance at all.Try and put your point of view across without resorting to stale and often irrelevant press cuttings.If you wish to participate it's helpful to know what you actually think.That's why Hammered for example is respected across political lines.

[Buchholz]

One can surmise there's a number of reasons why the Red Shirts (and their origins) haven't really been a hit with universities.

Yes one can and there was quite an interesting discussion going on why this might be the case.

As far as I can see your long cut and paste post doesn't add anything of substance at all.Try and put your point of view across without resorting to stale and often irrelevant press cuttings.If you wish to participate it's helpful to know what you actually think.That's why Hammered for example is respected across political lines.

Sorry if you missed the substantive nature of specific incidents as a reflection of why the Red Shirts haven't made in-roads on attracting the university crowd. What you consider stale and irrelevant are actually illuminating to those unfamiliar with the long history of opposing views between Red Shirts and most universities.

If the discussion is why university students might not wish to participate with this so-called movement, it might be helpful to understand their resentment towards them could originate, for example, in the Reds bringing hand grenades to their hospital or initiating brawls on their campus.

.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

Sorry if you missed the substantive nature of specific incidents as a reflection of why the Red Shirts haven't made in-roads on attracting the university crowd. What you consider stale and irrelevant are actually illuminating to those unfamiliar with the long history of opposing views between Red Shirts and most universities.

If the discussion is why university students might not wish to participate with this so-called movement, it might be helpful to understand their resentment towards them could originate, for example, in the Reds bringing hand grenades to their hospital or initiating brawls on their campus.

I am sure there were several irritating examples of disturbances near or even on university campuses.I am dubious however whether these shaped or framed the views of most Thai students.

If you have any other relevant points please add them, but preferably without stale and indigestible cuttings.It's what you think that might be interesting.

[animatic]

Missing the substantive nature of things that don't move certain personages arguments ahead is S.O.P.

The basic point in this one is that the ration of Uni students

with in the range of the Red Protestors is far below the past levels, and that must be reflective of the Red leaders arguments not being taken as legitimate or valid by the currently educating classes.

Historically groups with 'appearances' such as the 'reds' purport to have, ALWAYS drew large percentages of Uni and older HS students. Now that is not the case, even as their propaganda attempted to make it seem so. The fact that they attempted to make it seem so, points to the lack of 'boots on the ground' from this demographic.

Something drastically wrong with either

message, delivery, or believability, or all three.

Edited March 4, 2011 by animatic

[ianbaggie]

Jayboy - congratulations - youre a true red shirt - you distort the facts and ignore those that dont fit - if thats the truth today you can keep it - well done Bucholtz good post well researched

[jdinasia]

Someone asks for references to other Uni's resistance to the pro-Thaksin red shirt "movement" ... it gets answered (directly!) and yet it isn't good enough? I would assume the reason is, that without the students that the "catalyst" factor is shown for what it really is .. a money factor.

[jayboy]

Someone asks for references to other Uni's resistance to the pro-Thaksin red shirt "movement" ... it gets answered (directly!) and yet it isn't good enough? I would assume the reason is, that without the students that the "catalyst" factor is shown for what it really is .. a money factor.

If you believe the question can be addressed by a long list of stale press cuttings that's somewhat surprising.I assumed for all our differences you were comfortable with reasoned analysis.

Again there's a germ of an interesting discussion here (political attitudes of Thai students) and one on which I have an open mind.