Citizenship Issue Emerges To Haunt Abhisit

[Dap]

What's the problem with dual citizenship anyway!!

Why can't that be commonly accepted by people in Thailand?

We're in 2011, people move abroad more than before and children are born everyday with 2 parents from 2 different nationality.

These children will be raise with 2 different cultures and will learn to love them both.

Why then ask to choose between your father and your mother??

Open up your mind people!

Thank you MrGreg. Finally a word of reason.

This notion of nations and national boundaries and nationality is an invention of the 19th century and some people thinks is holy like religion. So many wars have been fought and so much blood has been spilled over this Franco/Prussian "hurra patriotism". Time to move on and open your mind. Nationalities are just administrative papers to give government agencies something to do. Millions of people would loose their job otherwise.

This nationality issue is about as intelligent as the Prae Vihar dispute. Aren't there more pressing problems in this country?

"and some people thinks is holy like religion" Well said! If the parents are Catholic then the baby is splashed with some "holy" water, the baby is then and forever "Catholic", and subject to "its" "rules and regulations"? Whatever happened to sound reasoning by an adult who wishes to be otherwise? Sorry if this may be interpreted as "off-topic", the question lingers.

[Dap]

But to me to have a right or a claim is not the same as having it. If someone ever owed you some money, you know what I mean.

Well said!

[Oberkommando]

100% Correct,

Seems the Opposition,and some on Thai Visa are having a reality problem. i.e .....

How can you give up,what you never claimed in the first place?

An Unwanted/Unsolicited Gift!

An unwanted gift he used to reside in the UK for 25 years allowing him the all the benefits that it brought him and is still bringing him thanks to his British upbringing and education.

Unwanted gift my ar*e.

[Oberkommando]

Look if you don't want people to get shot you don't send armed police and soldiers into that situation. Northern Ireland was a completely different situation and yes there were armed IRA paramilitaries at demonstrations but never were so many unarmed civilians laid to waste using lethal force regardless of the fact troops were being shot at. How you can even try to justify so many civilian deaths and casualties is beyond me? It was a crime against humanity plain and simple. I remind you that in the suburbs of Paris recently they had riots that lasted months with huge damage to property and many attacks on police and police stations but at no point was a single live round fired by the security forces. Water cannons mounted on tanks and tear gas can be used with great success to disperse a crowd and at the very worse rubber bullets and buckshot. M-16s and AK-47s are not an option in a civilized world.

Interesting to note that the death toll in the South of Thailand has now exceeded the death toll in Northern Ireland by some margin. Quite incredible given that the actual period of the troubles in N.I. spanned some 39 years.

[rubl]

Look if you don't want people to get shot you don't send armed police and soldiers into that situation. Northern Ireland was a completely different situation and yes there were armed IRA paramilitaries at demonstrations but never were so many unarmed civilians laid to waste using lethal force regardless of the fact troops were being shot at. How you can even try to justify so many civilian deaths and casualties is beyond me? It was a crime against humanity plain and simple. I remind you that in the suburbs of Paris recently they had riots that lasted months with huge damage to property and many attacks on police and police stations but at no point was a single live round fired by the security forces. Water cannons mounted on tanks and tear gas can be used with great success to disperse a crowd and at the very worse rubber bullets and buckshot. M-16s and AK-47s are not an option in a civilized world.

Look if you do not want people to be killed, you do not lob grenades on them. The police was unable or unwilling to cleanup, so the government asked the army which at first showed remarkable restrained. When they came under fire things started to go wrong.

People laid to waste? Army to blame? Already a few grenades were thrown before the army was even called to help out. Most protesters were unarmed, but those who were spoiled it for the others. In Europe if a protest would see armed people for sure special units would be called upon to target those. 'collateral damage' is ugly, people who got a grenade lobbed at them also don't look pretty.

Anyway the OP is 'citizenship issue'

[Ricardo]

An unwanted gift he used to reside in the UK for 25 years allowing him the all the benefits that it brought him and is still bringing him thanks to his British upbringing and education.

Unwanted gift my ar*e.

"allowing him all the benefits that it brought"

Like having his parents pay high-fees to send him to a private school, or registering and paying higher-fees as an overseas-student at university, you mean ?

Although I agree that his "British upbringing and education" may well have contributed, towards making him a more-decent Thai politician or human-being, than some other recent PMs.

But can you really think that he chose where to spend his childhood years, surely most parents make this sort of decision, on behalf of their children ?

[laocowboy2]

Not quite so.

As neither of my parents were British (both Irish) as per my 1951 birth certificate, I had to apply for a certificate of nationality before I could get a British passport. I thus had the "right

" to citizenship, passport etc but had to exercise that right before I was on the UK "books".

No doubt true - but as far as I am aware the PM has no "proof of British nationality" as he never applied for it. You cannot renounce what you do not yet have. I suppose he could apply, get it and then renounce it but that sounds a particularly convoluted exeise in futility even by Thai political standards.

What bit don't you understand? He was a British national the second of his birth and exercised his right to British Nationality the first second of his life in the UK - by having the choice to stay there without immigration controls - which he did!

Since when do 'natural born' citizens have the 'apply' for citizenship? I mean it is stupid and absurd to think that millions of UK born Brits who never had a passport and never left the country are somehow 'non-citizens' simply cause they've never had a passport.

That is essentially what you are implying.

[laocowboy2]

It didn't automatically give me UK citizenship in 1951. When applying for a passport later, I had to first apply for a certificate of nationality as at the time of birth both my parents carried Irish passports.

He does not need to claim it, it is an automatic right.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I feel sorry for k. Abhisit. As his parents were in the UK at the time of his birth, they had to register him by law which deed automatically gave him UK citizenship. Then they probably needed (a translation of) the birth certificate to claim his Thai nationality. Life surely started difficult for him

[lungmi]

Double nationality is a mine field and the posters dancing zig-zag. (not all I agree)

My son has double nationality (French and German). One active, one passive.

No army service, no tax, no right to vote or to be elected in France.

My adopted daugther (German Law) has double nationality with the same restrictions , but no right to inherit from her legal but not biological mother in France.

Ethnic Turkish people in Germany can have double nationality, but they lose all rights iin Turkey.

I asked a german lawyer group what do do to become Thai citizen.

Answer: not easy but possible.

And then: You have to pay tax in Thailand for your german pension, and tax in Germany.

You must prove for the passive (German) nationality, that you have family or other connections to Germany (member of a football club with member contributions,etc);

And then: If you have a criminal record in Thailand, German authorities can revoke your nationality. (May be different agreements with Montengro)

I cannot confirm for UK, but I think the passive nationality looks like this. The mine field of International laws.

[lungmi]

I have news fom Uk.

The baby is born in England, the father is German, the mother is Thai. Three years the baby has the UK nationality (passive) and then the parents have to make the choice. Double nationality is a basic human right, for the rest it's law T.

[yesdavy]

Given, he was born a British citizen. So, how and when did he later become a Thai citizen and obtain a Thai passport?

[Puccini]

From the news article in the OP:

...The Charter isn't clear on the prime minister's post and dual citizenship...

There is another thread running about a foreign, ie non-Thai, lawyer saying he wants to accuse Abhisit before the ICC because of his dual Thai/UK nationality. Now we have this thread raising the question whether Abhisit has the right to be Prime Minister because of his dual nationality.

It has been made clear and established as a fact that Abhisit acquired both the Thai nationality and the UK nationality automatically at birth. He, respectively his parents did not need to do anything and did nothing to "claim" either nationality, other than register the birth as required by the laws of the country where he was born.

It has also been established that Abhisit had and continues to have the right to renounce his UK nationality, at a cost. A fee of GBP 208 has been mentioned.

The Charter, meaning the Constitution of Thailand, is clear in that it states in section 171 that "The Prime Minister must be a member of the House of Representatives appointed under section 172." Therefore, the question is not whether a dual national is eligible as Prime Minister, but rather whether he is eligible as as member of the House of Representatives. Section 101 of the Constitution gives us this information:

Section 101. A person having the following qualifications has the right to be a candidate in an election

of members of the House of Representatives:

(1) being of Thai nationality by birth;

(2) being not less than twenty five years of age on the election day;

...

The fact that nothing is mentioned about dual nationality indicates clearly and without any doubt that it is immaterial whether a candidate for the House of Representatives, and consequently for the post of Prime Minister, has another nationality in addition to his Thai nationality. Abhisit is a Thai national by birth and this is all that matters.

Constitution 2007.pdf

[samran]

Not quite so.

As neither of my parents were British (both Irish) as per my 1951 birth certificate, I had to apply for a certificate of nationality before I could get a British passport. I thus had the "right

" to citizenship, passport etc but had to exercise that right before I was on the UK "books".

....and this only applied to Commonwealth and Irish citizens.

From http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/naturalisation.htm

"The British Nationality Act 1948 created the new status of Citizen of the United Kingdom and the Colonies. Under this act, people from former colonies and self-governing countries of the Commonwealth, such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, India, and Pakistan, could register as Citizens of the UK and Colonies. This was extended under the 1962 Commonwealth Immigrants Act to include the colonies. The main provision for granting citizenship by registration was that an adult citizen of self-governing countries of the Commonwealth, Ireland and the colonies needed to ordinarily reside in the United Kingdom, and have done so for at least 12 months prior to registration."

[hawksway]

This all started when a PT Politician hiding from criminal charges under Parlimentary Immunity theatened that the Prime Minister could be subject to ICC prosecution for alleged crimes by virtue of his UK Birth.

Now another senior PT Politician wants the Prime Minister to renounce his right to apply for UK Citizenship.

It really shows that Puea Thai's main interests are Jaw Jaw and mischief making when perhaps they should be spending more time on policy issues in the interests of those who voted for them, but it seems even that even these are in short supply for this pathetic excuse for a political party.

[Buchholz]

Look if you don't want people to get shot you don't send armed police and soldiers into that situation. Northern Ireland was a completely different situation and yes there were armed IRA paramilitaries at demonstrations but never were so many unarmed civilians laid to waste using lethal force regardless of the fact troops were being shot at. How you can even try to justify so many civilian deaths and casualties is beyond me? It was a crime against humanity plain and simple. I remind you that in the suburbs of Paris recently they had riots that lasted months with huge damage to property and many attacks on police and police stations but at no point was a single live round fired by the security forces. Water cannons mounted on tanks and tear gas can be used with great success to disperse a crowd and at the very worse rubber bullets and buckshot. M-16s and AK-47s are not an option in a civilized world.

Interesting to note that the death toll in the South of Thailand has now exceeded the death toll in Northern Ireland by some margin. Quite incredible given that the actual period of the troubles in N.I. spanned some 39 years.

Not so incredible when one remembers that the majority of the death toll in the South of Thailand happened during Thaksin's reign.

[Arkady]

Double nationality is a mine field and the posters dancing zig-zag. (not all I agree)

My son has double nationality (French and German). One active, one passive.

No army service, no tax, no right to vote or to be elected in France.

My adopted daugther (German Law) has double nationality with the same restrictions , but no right to inherit from her legal but not biological mother in France.

Ethnic Turkish people in Germany can have double nationality, but they lose all rights iin Turkey.

I asked a german lawyer group what do do to become Thai citizen.

Answer: not easy but possible.

And then: You have to pay tax in Thailand for your german pension, and tax in Germany.

You must prove for the passive (German) nationality, that you have family or other connections to Germany (member of a football club with member contributions,etc);

And then: If you have a criminal record in Thailand, German authorities can revoke your nationality. (May be different agreements with Montengro)

I cannot confirm for UK, but I think the passive nationality looks like this. The mine field of International laws.

What is passive nationality?

[Arkady]

If he's British he should be indited as under current UK law ordering troops to shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians, killing 90 and wounding hundreds, is illegal. Can't have one law for the elite and another for the rest of us despite the fact it happens all the time.

In most countries ordering to shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians is illegal (apart from a few in the Middle East). Here in Thailand no-one ordered to shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians and no-one group killed 90.

Army was ordered to clean-up by legal government, got surprised on April 10th and started shooting back. Amongst the 90 death, 15 army/police mostly 'grenaded' to death. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for civilians to have and use grenades also tends to be illegal in the UK?

In the UK the police are never armed in riot situations and they certainly don't deploy the army to clean up a crowd of what was peaceful demonstrators having a sit in. 9 journalists were shot and 2 killed for which the responsibility was put on the Thai military but that was later over turned due to military pressure. You say 15 army/police were killed but all baring firearms but the vast majority of civilians killed at that time were found to be unarmed as were the 1800 injured. What the Thai government ordered on that day was no better than recent happenings in the middle east as you don't pit the might of your military force with AK-47s and M-16s to shoot indiscriminately at civilians hurling rocks and fireworks. The military claimed to have found an arms cash within the Redshirt compound but who's to say it wasn't planted? Even if it was the Redshirt arsenal the quantity of firearms and ammunition claimed to be found was not enough to be a major threat to the Thai armed forces, their firepower, their body armor nor their armored vehicles so the response was completely disproportionate. If that had happened in London government and military heads would role and a few of them would be serving lengthy prison sentences.

Isn't Northern Ireland part of the UK? In the Great Depression troops were deployed against protesters on the British mainland too.