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Posted

I had completed a TESOL course in June last year expecting to land a job teaching English in no time. What I got instead were ugly experiences with racial discrimination, not being able to land a single position teaching English due to my ethnicity or nationality. For the record I am a Singaporean of Chinese descent. I hold a bachelor's degree in business from Australia, and I completed the SIT TESOL certificate course which was hosted by AUA in Bangkok.

Sent dozens of e-mails looking for work. If I got replies, they'd ask me where I was from or request for a photo. Needless to say, I'd get no replies thereafter. "Native speakers from UK, USA, Ireland, Australia....etc only. If you do not come from these countries please DO NOT apply." Some of the schools I talked to were more frank, they told me it was unlikely for me to find a job because I wasn't white. "Even if you don't have a degree nor a TEFL cert, as long as you're white, young, slim, or better still, good looking, you'll find a job easily," one caucasian director of a school told me. The often quoted reason for hiring whites only is because Thai parents who enrol their children in language schools want their children to be taught by white people, or Thai people go to language schools expecting to be taught by white teachers. Most of these schools are run by caucasians, caucasians who are from countries which had racial issues in the past; issues that have been resolved, more or less. Yet, they tell me they can't hire me because I'm not white. It's not their call, they say; it's just that they have to cater to their Thai customers who want white faces exclusively.

Subsequently I found that Filipinos face the same issue in Thailand. They get hired, but at outrageously lower salaries even if they are holding the same job positions as their caucasian counterparts, which is completely unjustified. I hate to compare, but Singapore is the only Asian country with English as the medium of instruction in all schools, from primary to tertiary education. The lingua franca in Singapore is English. Our mother tongues, in my case, Chinese, is officially designated as second languages by the government. Secondary education here (the equivalent of high school and preparatory schools) offer exams in the form of the Cambridge GCE 'O' and 'A' levels. If Thailand insists on playing the "native speaker" card when hiring people to teach English, then techinically speaking, Singaporeans should fit the bill perfectly. Then again, it's apparent to me by now that schools insistence on native english speakers have almost nothing to do with the language proficiency, but the face value of its teachers. Why then, would Eastern europeans whose first langauge is not English find jobs so easily?

In any case I am still looking for a job to teach English, as it is what I took the TESOL course for. I hope the moderator of this forum, Scott, or any other forum members can help.

Regards, all.

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Posted

It is a fact that even with your background and education abroad, being from Singapore is a strike against you. Not being white hurts your chances too (even if you were from the USA or Australia it would reduce your chances.

The MoL in Thailand sets standards for the minimum wage that can be paid in occupations other than teaching and reporting that stack the deck in favor of some countries and against others. Until recently, if you were from Japan or the US, you HAD to be paid more than other nationalities to get an extension of stay from TM. Meaning that most companies would hire an Aussie or a Brit before they would hire a Japanese or a yank. (All of those countries now have the same 50k/month minimum)

So yes, it is true, you will find it harder to even get an interview if you are Singaporean/Chinese. I personally LIKE diversity in who I hire and try to look around for what is out there, but when it comes to the company bottom-line I'll usually pay the "market-rate" based upon nationality.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

The same can be said about Singaporeans (but I happily grant that any university-level education in a native English speaking country can help overcome some of the innate English issues that many Singaporeans have!) On a side note --- it is relatively common to be raised in the USA and not have English be your "first" language, and the same is true in Singapore. I believe the "English First" system in Singaporean education is relatively new (1987?) but the real policy in Singapore still seems to be "bilingualism".

http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/singapore.html someone's academic article from 2005 ....

Conclusion

Despite the fact that language planning in Singapore has been successful in achieving Government's sated aims, there are a lot existing issues and potential problems underlying the bilingual policy. In order to clarify these issues and solve these problems, not only the Government but also the policy makers, and most important of all, the teaching profession should co-operate with each other. Local teachers should take a more active role in influencing language policy. It is because as front line practitioners, they have direct experience on the needs and difficulties of students. Through the co-operation between teachers and policy-makers, more effective and indigenized language policy, curriculum, methodology and teaching materials could be designed.

If I saw your CV and saw a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education (or a Master's in Biz) I would probably call you in for an interview just because I like diversity. With a Bachelor's in Business I'd probably not call you in just based upon nationality. I know that may sound bad, but a general degree with no relevance AND not coming from a "Native English" speaking country. Remember also, that I do have a clientele to keep happy.

Posted

It is a fact that even with your background and education abroad, being from Singapore is a strike against you. Not being white hurts your chances too (even if you were from the USA or Australia it would reduce your chances.

The MoL in Thailand sets standards for the minimum wage that can be paid in occupations other than teaching and reporting that stack the deck in favor of some countries and against others. Until recently, if you were from Japan or the US, you HAD to be paid more than other nationalities to get an extension of stay from TM. Meaning that most companies would hire an Aussie or a Brit before they would hire a Japanese or a yank. (All of those countries now have the same 50k/month minimum)

So yes, it is true, you will find it harder to even get an interview if you are Singaporean/Chinese. I personally LIKE diversity in who I hire and try to look around for what is out there, but when it comes to the company bottom-line I'll usually pay the "market-rate" based upon nationality.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

The same can be said about Singaporeans (but I happily grant that any university-level education in a native English speaking country can help overcome some of the innate English issues that many Singaporeans have!) On a side note --- it is relatively common to be raised in the USA and not have English be your "first" language, and the same is true in Singapore. I believe the "English First" system in Singaporean education is relatively new (1987?) but the real policy in Singapore still seems to be "bilingualism".

http://www3.telus.ne.../singapore.html someone's academic article from 2005 ....

Conclusion

Despite the fact that language planning in Singapore has been successful in achieving Government's sated aims, there are a lot existing issues and potential problems underlying the bilingual policy. In order to clarify these issues and solve these problems, not only the Government but also the policy makers, and most important of all, the teaching profession should co-operate with each other. Local teachers should take a more active role in influencing language policy. It is because as front line practitioners, they have direct experience on the needs and difficulties of students. Through the co-operation between teachers and policy-makers, more effective and indigenized language policy, curriculum, methodology and teaching materials could be designed.

If I saw your CV and saw a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education (or a Master's in Biz) I would probably call you in for an interview just because I like diversity. With a Bachelor's in Business I'd probably not call you in just based upon nationality. I know that may sound bad, but a general degree with no relevance AND not coming from a "Native English" speaking country. Remember also, that I do have a clientele to keep happy.

But a TESOL certificate and a degree (in whatever field) is the basic requirement for people wanting to teach English as a foreign language. Why do I specifically need a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education? Because I'm not white? Meaning that I would need more relevant and superior qualifications than white people when competing for the same position?

Bottom line is that the English proficiency of the average, university educated Singaporean is nowhere inferior to anyone from a "native-speaking" country, bilingualism notwithstanding. I'm quoting some negative examples here of course, but why should some whites with no degree nor a TEFL certificate who come to Thailand for the cheap booze and women get the job compared to a serious applicant like myself?

Posted

Sorry, but for both the accent and the grammar, Singaporeans on the whole are not up to the same level of the Native English speaker even with a university degree. Bilingualism IS an issue in Singapore, hence the term Singlish, lah.

Yes you need better than just average as the playing field is not level for you. Why would I hire someone from a country NOT recognized as a "Native English speaking" country when there are literally 100's of applicants a year with both a degree and experience, or a degree and a TEFL that are from those counties? I would not hire someone without a degree so for me that argument doesn't wash. I also wouldn't hire someone whose first language was German, Russian, or French .. and have turned away one French-Canadian just due to his accent. Your stereotypes for the most part won't get hired here and if they do they (again for the most part) won't get WP's

It simply is true that parents want white faces, but a good administrator can overcome that IF the teacher has better qualifications than other teachers.

On a side note ---- most e-mails go unanswered here (not by me). If an email doesn't have the needed information and I have time I may send a short reply asking for more info, but out of 11 new hires in the last year, I only contacted three of them from emails they had sent (with specific skill sets I needed), the other 8 were walk-ins that I made a note of their general appearance and demeanor and then contacted later when I had something.

Posted

Sounds perfectly logical to me, doing what the business required. Not racism from the directors, just business experience.

Sorry for the sad truth.

Posted

BTW -- there are a few "tri-lingual" schools out there that might jump at the chance for you ...

I am not saying you won't get a job, but I am saying that it will be more difficult AND you may not get paid as much as your white counterparts.

Posted

Koralynne, let no one tell you that your English isn't proficient--as well as your understanding of the situation in Thailand. You have very eloquently summed up the situation in Thailand.

I can't offer you much in the way of assistance, but we do have posters that may be able to get you pointed in the right direction.

I am very familiar with some 'white' faces that aren't qualified to teach a dog to fetch, but they do get work and a nice salary. There are a few Eastern Europeans whose English is far from good, but they get work and a good salary.

Meanwhile other Asians (and sometimes Asians who are from Western countries) are discriminated against.

By way of suggestion, you might want to look at one of the schools with a Chinese program. They may be more understanding.

The hiring season will begin this month and there will be a lot of job openings in April.

Please keep us posted and the best of luck to you.

Posted

So what concrete action steps can I take? I need to find a job rather urgently.

As jdinasia said, walk in to the schools well dressed and clean with a resume, ask to speak to the director.

I work at an Australian English school (doing internet marketing) and the most abnormal teachers we have are strong English/American accents, one or two that are not so attractive and one Middle Eastern Australian, generally the stereotypes reign true. I know an African French guy who works at an English school in BKK, so it's definitely possible.

Posted

Are you in Bangkok?

As the last poster said, go in and see them. Call them and keep checking. You may have to take a relatively low paid job if cash is a problem while you search for something more secure.

The language schools have openings most of the time and with summer approaching there is likely to be a fair amount of movement of teachers and they may need substitutes.

Posted

Are you in Bangkok?

As the last poster said, go in and see them. Call them and keep checking. You may have to take a relatively low paid job if cash is a problem while you search for something more secure.

The language schools have openings most of the time and with summer approaching there is likely to be a fair amount of movement of teachers and they may need substitutes.

Yes I have been in Bangkok since June last year. I've actually been working as a substitute teacher ever since teaching academic subjects like Science, Math, and even English. But as mentioned, what I really want is to teach English as a foreign language.

Posted

as you ay parents who are paying the school expect a native white speaker, yes racisim but thats thailand which is a racist country, Singapore not loved to much thanks to mr Taskins selling of telecom company to them.

Posted (edited)

Nobody who is conscious can deny these kind of race/nationality based hiring decisions are made on a regular basis in Thailand. I also don't doubt some employers told you directly. I also don't doubt the OP is more qualified than people who are hired but who have the "right" look/nationality. However, in cases like this, there is also a merit issue. For example if I wanted to study French I would choose a native speaker from Paris over a native creole French speaking Haitian to teach me. I think it is legitimate to consider learning from a native Singaporean English speaker of less value than a native of London or Washington D.C. It's more than the accent. Not saying an educated Singaporean can't learn to speak more internationally standardized English, but it would take some work to determine that.

Edited by Jingthing
Posted (edited)

I will not continue to lament the situation as it is; I am unable to change the industry as a whole, even if I can prove my English to be just as proficient as any "native-English" speaker. I will accept the circumstances as they are.

That said, I will take up the suggestion of some of the posters to go knocking on doors and take my chances. If any of you are able to help me with regards to findling a job, please drop me an e-mail at koralynne (at) live.com

Thanks, all.

Edited by sbk
no emails in posts-please do not feed the spammers
Posted

If you are in Bankok.............try the Assumption College Thonburi.

They hire NES, Philippino's, blacks.......as long as you can do the job. Its a BIG school and they are hiring.

Posted (edited)

There are so many Singapore International School around this part of world, they wont discriminate a fellow Singaporean.

in Vietnam, http://www.kinderwor...menu=About%20Us

In Mumbai, http://www.sisindia.net/

In HongKong, http://www.singapore.../Pub/index.aspx

In Bangkok, http://www.sisb.ac.th/ http://www.siss.ac.th/facilities.php

Singapore MOE provides ASEAN scholarship to Thai students, and that's one of the draw to sisb.

CONGRATULATIONS! f02_resize.jpg

(19 Oct 2009) We are proud to announce that our ex-student, Ms. Warinporn Phantratanamongkol (Minky) has been awarded an ASEAN scholarship by the Singapore Ministry of Education. This prestigious scholarship allows her to pursue her upper secondary and college education in Singapore for four years, after which she may continue her tertiary education in a university.

Minky had studied in SISB since she was in primary one and she took the iPSLE in August 2007. The iPSLE was a good benchmark of her academic standard against the national standard of a primary school in Singapore. Her many years of learning in SISB gave her the academic foundation and technical knowledge that she needed to take the scholarship examinations.

Recruitment SISB has immediate vacancy for Primary Mathematics teacher for January 2011.

Requirements

-University graduate reflecting the subject Component

-Post graduate teacher's training or equivalent with experiences in teaching stated subject Please send CV to Mr. Kelvin Koh via email:[email protected] or [email protected]

Application close 31 December 2010

With the teaching experience, you may even go back one day to teach under SG MOE once you are fed up of travelling and want to settle down in the little red dot.

Surich

KL

p.s. my children and grand children are all in Singapore and some are Singaporean

Edited by SurichTan
Posted

It is a fact that even with your background and education abroad, being from Singapore is a strike against you. Not being white hurts your chances too (even if you were from the USA or Australia it would reduce your chances.

The MoL in Thailand sets standards for the minimum wage that can be paid in occupations other than teaching and reporting that stack the deck in favor of some countries and against others. Until recently, if you were from Japan or the US, you HAD to be paid more than other nationalities to get an extension of stay from TM. Meaning that most companies would hire an Aussie or a Brit before they would hire a Japanese or a yank. (All of those countries now have the same 50k/month minimum)

So yes, it is true, you will find it harder to even get an interview if you are Singaporean/Chinese. I personally LIKE diversity in who I hire and try to look around for what is out there, but when it comes to the company bottom-line I'll usually pay the "market-rate" based upon nationality.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

The same can be said about Singaporeans (but I happily grant that any university-level education in a native English speaking country can help overcome some of the innate English issues that many Singaporeans have!) On a side note --- it is relatively common to be raised in the USA and not have English be your "first" language, and the same is true in Singapore. I believe the "English First" system in Singaporean education is relatively new (1987?) but the real policy in Singapore still seems to be "bilingualism".

http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/singapore.html someone's academic article from 2005 ....

Conclusion

Despite the fact that language planning in Singapore has been successful in achieving Government's sated aims, there are a lot existing issues and potential problems underlying the bilingual policy. In order to clarify these issues and solve these problems, not only the Government but also the policy makers, and most important of all, the teaching profession should co-operate with each other. Local teachers should take a more active role in influencing language policy. It is because as front line practitioners, they have direct experience on the needs and difficulties of students. Through the co-operation between teachers and policy-makers, more effective and indigenized language policy, curriculum, methodology and teaching materials could be designed.

If I saw your CV and saw a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education (or a Master's in Biz) I would probably call you in for an interview just because I like diversity. With a Bachelor's in Business I'd probably not call you in just based upon nationality. I know that may sound bad, but a general degree with no relevance AND not coming from a "Native English" speaking country. Remember also, that I do have a clientele to keep happy.

Agree, the main thing I would look for is your qualifications and experience teaching what you want to teach in Thailand IN a English speaking nation. If you are not qualified or experienced in this regard, I think you will have a hard time anywhere you go.

Posted

I will not continue to lament the situation as it is; I am unable to change the industry as a whole, even if I can prove my English to be just as proficient as any "native-English" speaker. I will accept the circumstances as they are.

That said, I will take up the suggestion of some of the posters to go knocking on doors and take my chances. If any of you are able to help me with regards to findling a job, please drop me an e-mail at koralynne (at) live.com

Thanks, all.

I sent you a PM.

Good luck.

Posted

It is a fact that even with your background and education abroad, being from Singapore is a strike against you. Not being white hurts your chances too (even if you were from the USA or Australia it would reduce your chances.

The MoL in Thailand sets standards for the minimum wage that can be paid in occupations other than teaching and reporting that stack the deck in favor of some countries and against others. Until recently, if you were from Japan or the US, you HAD to be paid more than other nationalities to get an extension of stay from TM. Meaning that most companies would hire an Aussie or a Brit before they would hire a Japanese or a yank. (All of those countries now have the same 50k/month minimum)

So yes, it is true, you will find it harder to even get an interview if you are Singaporean/Chinese. I personally LIKE diversity in who I hire and try to look around for what is out there, but when it comes to the company bottom-line I'll usually pay the "market-rate" based upon nationality.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

The same can be said about Singaporeans (but I happily grant that any university-level education in a native English speaking country can help overcome some of the innate English issues that many Singaporeans have!) On a side note --- it is relatively common to be raised in the USA and not have English be your "first" language, and the same is true in Singapore. I believe the "English First" system in Singaporean education is relatively new (1987?) but the real policy in Singapore still seems to be "bilingualism".

http://www3.telus.ne.../singapore.html someone's academic article from 2005 ....

Conclusion

Despite the fact that language planning in Singapore has been successful in achieving Government's sated aims, there are a lot existing issues and potential problems underlying the bilingual policy. In order to clarify these issues and solve these problems, not only the Government but also the policy makers, and most important of all, the teaching profession should co-operate with each other. Local teachers should take a more active role in influencing language policy. It is because as front line practitioners, they have direct experience on the needs and difficulties of students. Through the co-operation between teachers and policy-makers, more effective and indigenized language policy, curriculum, methodology and teaching materials could be designed.

If I saw your CV and saw a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education (or a Master's in Biz) I would probably call you in for an interview just because I like diversity. With a Bachelor's in Business I'd probably not call you in just based upon nationality. I know that may sound bad, but a general degree with no relevance AND not coming from a "Native English" speaking country. Remember also, that I do have a clientele to keep happy.

But a TESOL certificate and a degree (in whatever field) is the basic requirement for people wanting to teach English as a foreign language. Why do I specifically need a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education? Because I'm not white? Meaning that I would need more relevant and superior qualifications than white people when competing for the same position?

Bottom line is that the English proficiency of the average, university educated Singaporean is nowhere inferior to anyone from a "native-speaking" country, bilingualism notwithstanding. I'm quoting some negative examples here of course, but why should some whites with no degree nor a TEFL certificate who come to Thailand for the cheap booze and women get the job compared to a serious applicant like myself?

Hey Koralynne,

It's the same as aplying for a job as a teacher in Chinese language being a Caucasian.

Most Thai parents/students prefer a native English teacher while being teached English.

Hiring a Caucasian usually makes explanations unnecessary and is used as (sort of) PR.

People automatically asume a Caucasian from an English speaking country is a good teacher in English language, that is just it.

I am not saying it is good, but it is commercially understandable, you should not take it too personal.

Furthermore I know there are minimum wages set by Thai law for people from certain countries as a visa requirement.

I do not know whether they are the same for all countries but this could explain the difference in wages you encounter, or at least I hope so.

Anyhow, don't give up, you will find a job and otherwise your post will certainly help you getting the needed attention and possibly a job.

Good luck !

Pops.

Posted

Teachers are exempt from the wage structure set up by the gov't.

There is a big difference between good PR and good teaching. Until Thailand gets it's priorities straight about actually educating it's children, they will continue to lag behind other countries.

To give you an example, some years back, we had a very nice Canadian whose ethnic background was Asian-Indian. His degree was in education and he had a year of experience in his home country. He was told to teach PE, which he did and did it quite well. When a subject opened, he requested a transfer, but was refused. He quit and went to work for an international school. His salary jumped by over 2 1/2 times. His benefits increased.

Posted

Sinagapore by far has the best education system in S.E Asia. In fact, last year Singapore had the highest Mathematical proficency in the world.

If they dont employ you with qualifications like that I would try somewhere else, it gives you a clue of how backwards this country is, not a grain of logic to be found. At least your not African, you'd be lucky to get in the school gates if you were.

Racism is rife in Thailand, except its always excused by some lightweight reason like" thats just the way they think, they dont mean it like that though."

Posted

I've heard of some schools in Asia desciminating against British teachers because of their dialects.

prefering to opt for an American accent instead of say...Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle etc

sad but true.

Posted

I've heard of some schools in Asia desciminating against British teachers because of their dialects.

prefering to opt for an American accent instead of say...Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle etc

sad but true.

Nothing sad about that at all, makes sense. Why should they want their kids taught some local dialect like Brummie and Geordie? Kid comes home from school and asks, "Mutha what's fre dinner the neet?" It's just a fact, which better schools have recognized, that most Brits over here can't speak Received Pronunciation and are therefore incomprehensible. Even the Thais in charge of hiring have a hard time understanding them.

American English has become the standard, like it or not. The spelling is more rational, too, thanks to Noah Webster.

Posted

And then there are other schools who will only hire Brits because of the accent.

We will avoid a discussion of accents. This topic is about Racism, not nationalism or dialects/accents.

Posted

It's simply not true that all Thai schools discriminate on grounds of race or colour. I have some familiarity with two schools and I know both of them hire black and white Africans, Asians from a range of countries, and so on. One of the schools hired a newly graduated Singaporean teacher a couple of years ago. If parents complain they are simply told that the school does not practice racial discrimination.

However, in line with other Thai schools, Asian teachers who have graduated from their home country and have come from there to apply for work do have a different pay scale from Western-origin teachers (who include Asian teachers who have graduated from Western universities). Given the high standard of Singapore's universities I don't know what scale a Singaporean would be placed on. The last Singaporean had graduated from a major US university.

If the OP wants to know more she is welcome to PM me.

Posted

American English has become the standard, like it or not. The spelling is more rational, too, thanks to Noah Webster.

Nahhhhhhhhhh. Obviously stated by a Yank.

Please show where the so-called standard has its evidence?

It doesn't. You're just a dreamer.

If American English is the so-called standard..................how come Brit curriculum schools far outnumber the American ones overseas?

Why is IELTS (Cambridge based) now the English proficiency choice of Uni entry to Harvard, MIT to name a few.

Posted

Nahhhhhhhhhh. Obviously stated by a Yank.

Please show where the so-called standard has its evidence?

It doesn't. You're just a dreamer.

If American English is the so-called standard..................how come Brit curriculum schools far outnumber the American ones overseas?

Why is IELTS (Cambridge based) now the English proficiency choice of Uni entry to Harvard, MIT to name a few.

Why do Brit curriculum schools outnumber American curriculum schools overseas? Perhaps because the US never colonized ... doesn't have "commonwealth countries" etc ....

Ummm IELTS does not require the use of UK English at all. Why is it used? It is better at judging all 4 skills. Harvard and MIT accept IELTS.

What Harvard ACTUALLY says about international undergraduate admissions shows the fallacy of your argument.

English Language Proficiency

A strong knowledge of English is essential for successful study at Harvard, including the ability to understand and express thoughts quickly and clearly. We require the results of the SAT I and two SAT II Subject Tests for all candidates. The SAT II English Language Proficiency Test (ELPT) is not acceptable for this purpose. Students are not required to take the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) or the International English Language Test (IELTS) but we welcome the submission of your score if you have taken either. While students can choose any two SAT subject tests, applicants whose native language is not English should not take either of their two SAT II tests in their native language.

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/international/tests.html

I would assume that you would accept what the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language says on the subject? If so look up Crystal, David.

So, "Whose language is it?" appears to be a question of no pertinence. Crystal would give credit to the United States and its influence in the 20th century, "much to the discomfiture of some in Britain who find the loss of historical linguistic preeminence unpalatable." But, the world dominance of the United States rests partially on what the British had achieved in the 19th century. With as many theories as there have been on the divergence of the "two streams of English," it is still virtually impossible to consider them separately or even sequentially. It is true that the use of English predates the European settlement of America, but it has gained impetus concurrently with the rise of the United States to international status, as well as with the rise of the United Kingdom to that same status.
http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/berube.htm

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/international/tests.html

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